8 valve Harley?

[jas67]

http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home.html

[oldbike54]

And they went with a counter balancer!   Please, that was one of the cooler things I would give HD and Guzzi credit for, not wussying out and caving to timed.

But I do understand, as articles state, they are after conquest sales.

 Except every HD BT built for years has been rubber mount or counter balanced . Give me the counter balanced engine .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

If I understood it correctly they went with BOTH rubbermounts AND counterbalancing. The latter purposely designed to only eliminate about 75% of the vibration because they've found their customers rebel if it's too smooth.

And to be honest, we've heard the appliance criticism of other brands for those reasons.

[LowRyter]

OK,  8 valves, but what about the RPMs?  if it doesn't rev, then you're talking marginal power differences vs the standard bike.  Perhaps better emissions and gas mileage, smoother, stronger torque? 

When does the VTEC kick in?   

[Tom]

Without a good suspension system, a newer engine to go slow won't be worth the extra money.

[Kev m]

OK,  8 valves, but what about the RPMs?  if it doesn't rev, then you're talking marginal power differences vs the standard bike.  Perhaps better emissions and gas mileage, smoother, stronger torque? 

Borrowed from an acquaintance at the XLforum:

motorcycledaily.com posted a link (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2017-mc-ctrr.xls) to an EPA spreadsheet that lists certification data for 2017 motorcycles.


In the spreadsheet, the rpm is listed under a column labeled EDV Rated RPM. EDV stands for "emission data vehicle." Not sure if that is the same as peak hp rpm. 4K seems kind of low for peak hp rpm of a Twin Cam.


In the spreadsheet, the XG500 and the V-Rod are listed as not using catalysts.

Per the spreadsheet:
Model: hp/rpm

XG500: 36.3/7,250
XG750: 59/8,000

XL883: 53.6/6,000
XL1200: 67/5,500

V-Rod: 122-127/8,250

Twin-Cam 103: 80.5/4,000
Twin-Cam 110: 87.2/4,000

Milwaukee-Eight 107: 93/5,020
Milwaukee-Eight 114: 101/5,020

Without a good suspension system, a newer engine to go slow won't be worth the extra money.

I haven't read the details yet, but the touring models (the only ones getting the M8 motor this year) also get a new hydraulically adjustable rear suspension (as opposed to the previous air adjustable shocks).

That said, the suspension wasn't really a big concern on most BTs, especially the touring models.

[LowRyter]

OK if this engine is making 107-114 HP that's pretty salty.  Their previous big blocks made something like 70HP at the tire.   That's a hefty increase or 50%!

I'll be the first to admit that's impressive performance.  It should be more than enough to keep up with the Cal 1400 and spank most Moto Guzzis (my V11 Sport included).   It looks like we'll have the first performance oriented big Harley.  Now they'll need to build the rest of the bike to handle it. 

[oldbike54]

 Friends don't let friends ... well , you fill in the blanks .

 Dusty

[Cage Free]

OK if this engine is making 107-114 HP that's pretty salty.  Their previous big blocks made something like 70HP at the tire.   That's a hefty increase or 50%!

I'll be the first to admit that's impressive performance.  It should be more than enough to keep up with the Cal 1400 and spank most Moto Guzzis (my V11 Sport included).   It looks like we'll have the first performance oriented big Harley.  Now they'll need to build the rest of the bike to handle it.

The 107 and 114 is the cubic inches not the HP.

[Kev m]

OK if this engine is making 107-114 HP that's pretty salty.  Their previous big blocks made something like 70HP at the tire.   That's a hefty increase or 50%!

I'll be the first to admit that's impressive performance.  It should be more than enough to keep up with the Cal 1400 and spank most Moto Guzzis (my V11 Sport included).   It looks like we'll have the first performance oriented big Harley.  Now they'll need to build the rest of the bike to handle it.

93 and 101 hp respectively, probably at crank and a few hp lost by rear wheel, but not much based on other numbers on that chart.

Keep in mind these are still not supposed to be high hp motors, they are still going to be tuned for torque, but they should get out of their own way nicely.

[steven c]

I wounder if they will do the same to a new Sportster motor?

[Cool Runnings]

93 and 101 hp respectively, probably at crank and a few hp lost by rear wheel, but not much based on other numbers on that chart.

Keep in mind these are still not supposed to be high hp motors, they are still going to be tuned for torque, but they should get out of their own way nicely.

Highly unlikely, upper RPM's is still around 5k. I bet RWHP will not be more than 75. 

[Kev m]

Highly unlikely, upper RPM's is still around 5k. I bet RWHP will not be more than 75. 

No, not unlikely at all, comparing the other motors in the test to various rwhp numbers from sources like MCN, cycle world, motorcyclist, etc. over the years suggests those numbers are probably not far from actual rwhp.

[Kev m]

I wounder if they will do the same to a new Sportster motor?

The Sportster is a pretty different beast, a unitized, four camshaft, EVO. It never received any of the Twin Cam upgrades unless you consider they essentially both got feedback EFI and increased cooling capacities in 07.

[PeteS]

Highly unlikely, upper RPM's is still around 5k. I bet RWHP will not be more than 75. 

Torque and HP figures for the bigger motor are actually more than a Honda Goldwing which are around 100 HP and 100 ft/lbs. The Ultra Classics weigh around 900 lbs which is about the same as a Goldwing. Goldwings do the 1/4er in the low 12's. Put that motor in an unfaired Harley and you should be looking at mid to low 11's. Not bad.
I'll be looking forward to the road tests.

Pete

[oldbike54]

 Rumor has it the new "wart" head will be a unit construction design .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Rumor has it the new "wart" head will be a unit construction design .

 Dusty

Are you talking the M8 (it's not) or am I missing the joke

[oldbike54]

Are you talking the M8 (it's not) or am I missing the joke

 The wart head or unit construction part ?

 Dusty

[Cool Runnings]

No, not unlikely at all, comparing the other motors in the test to various rwhp numbers from sources like MCN, cycle world, motorcyclist, etc. over the years suggests those numbers are probably not far from actual rwhp.

This is misleading -> The 2017 Ultra Classic will have a Milwaukee-Eight™ 107ci  with 111.4 ft-lb Engine Torque.

That number is before all the emission crap is installed. 

[LowRyter]

The 107 and 114 is the cubic inches not the HP.

[Cool Runnings]

Each Milwaukee-Eight engine produces 10 percent more torque than the engine it replaces in Touring models.

The Milwaukee-Eight 107 accelerates 11 percent quicker 0-60 mph, equal to a two to three bike length improvement, and 11 percent quicker from 60-80 mph in top gear, equal to a one to two bike length improvement, compared to the Twin Cam High Output 103.

The Milwaukee-Eight 114 accelerates 8 percent quicker 0-60 and 12 percent quicker 60-80 than the Twin Cam 110™.



http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2016/08/harley-makes-new-milwaukee-eight-engines-official-with-video/

I'm thinking in reality the new 8 Valve will be a tad faster than the 4 valve, nothing earth shattering. 

[ITSec]

I just read the CycleWorld article, and the comments thus far, and thought I'd chime in - it doesn't require being a Harley expert, does it? 

First, the CW material reads like something HD wrote with a CW editor injecting a few comments. I know it's hard to say a lot about a bike and engine you can't ride yet, but this was a little too sycophantic for my taste.

Next, one earlier comment read to me as if the new design would require valve adjustments, but my read of the CW article seemed to say it would not. I can't see a new engine of this type in a HD being market-acceptable with a requirement for valve adjustments...

It's interesting that the same engine will be delivered in both oil-cooled and oil/water-cooled versions - few manufacturers will sell enough of a design to justify the variation.

Displacement is carefully selected to be greater than that of current Victory and Indian models - continuing a tradition of the last few iterations from both Milwaukee and Minneapolis.

Calling it the Milwaukee Eight is (I think) a misfire. Certainly, the eight-valve design and the resulting changes throughout the engine are worthy of note, but in Ammurica we always think first of cylinders, not valves. I think this may have started with the 'six-shooter'; it's certainly embedded in the psyche. 

[Cool Runnings]

Milwaukee Eight or Quattrovalvole

Detroit big block iron or Italian exotica. 

[atavar]

Interesting, but a Harley (other than the VRod/Street) with VALVE ADJUSTMENTS? Hmmmm...

An HD buddy of mine who got some sort of notice about this said it's going to be a hydro..  This info not vetted at all.

[bigbikerrick]

Hope they didn't get pointers from Guzzi.

  HaHaHa....

[atavar]

yeah, an 8v hydro ain't gonna be happy getting started four times a year..

[Tom]

All of this for horsepower and torque that's hardly ever used.   I want to have it in case I need it. 

[oldbike54]

 Where have you been Nick ? 

  Dusty

[Nick]

Where have you been Nick ? 

  Dusty

Sorry for the duplicate......I just removed it 

[Kev m]

An HD buddy of mine who got some sort of notice about this said it's going to be a hydro..  This info not vetted at all.

No no, it's vetted/confirmed as of the info release yesterday, it's hydro and that made more sense.