Why won't they do it ?..(for Kremmen)

[bad Chad]

The 1400 “barley works “???  That’s absurd Pete.

[pete roper]

The 1400 has to have everything 'Just so' otherwise it will drink oil, or expel it, like a bastard! The condensor system is easily overwhelmed and I'm convinced that one of the reasons they opted for the weedy porting was to try and mitigate the tendency to expel oil.

[Guzzistaracing]

I would put my money on that a scrambler, based on the V85, is the next thing they will present. For the future I hope they soon get a new engine with watercooling, then you might see some performance models.

[fossil]

I would put my money on that a scrambler, based on the V85, is the next thing they will present. For the future I hope they soon get a new engine with watercooling, then you might see some performance models.

Both remarks: what for?

[Guzzistaracing]

Both remarks: what for?

Because to build a scrambler from the V85TT is very simple and the days of aircooled engines are nearly over(pollution restrictions)

[Huzo]

Bump for Kremmen, most of youse have read this already.

[blu guzz]

this was a fun post.  i have learned a lot of Australian words.

[lucky phil]

I know this has been covered from a thousand angles, but why oh why does Guzzi REFUSE to build a soft edged sports bike around the V9mill ? I've been told why you can't just put a Griso donk in an MGS 01 and add a couple of lights in Mandello and go for a ride... I reluctantly accept that.
However with their (reputedly) diminishing market share in some parts of the world (Oz), what is the barrier to building something that pays some degree of homage to the MGS, option it up with Ohlins for those who want it, and maybe release a variant with an 850 donk and call it the V8, again a commentary on the legendary past, (it works for the V7 and V9) and make bloody sure you paint the bastard RED !
Here in Oz, the laws are such that it's becoming completely pointless owning and servicing a 300 kph bike and most guys know it, there's not a lot of Panigale's around. Any sports bike that is raw and pseudo race ready gives the average young buyer a chubby, and it MUST be possible after seeing the MGS. Every bastard loves them, but Guzzi won't/(can't) do it. If they don't grab more market share they'll go under eventually, won't they? I'd expect it would need the CARC ass end for the single sided swing arm, so I don't know how that can be done with the V9, I'm just shit scared that they'll eventually realise that they can make a fortune producing bright red flat pack kitchen setups under licence from IKEA or something equally ridiculous and all the bike stuff will be relegated to the back shed, until in 25 years time some rich industrialist will "resurrect" the brand and start putting electric motors in them.
Although it won't be all bad, Roper'll be on his Enfield, Dusty'll be in a rocking chair with pipe and slippers and I'll be dead ! 'Funny thing is, I don't actually want one, I just think lots of potential buyers do, they just don't know it yet ! Guzzi have to stop their model line up being for old farts and hipsters ! They've been going out of business since 1921, if they keep trying, they'll succeed...

The answer to this and just about every other question regarding Guzzi marketing and model decisions over the last 30 years is covered in Dave Richardsons new book. Its worth reading, it has the answers.

Ciao     

[Kremmen]

Bump for Kremmen, most of youse have read this already.

I had too. Several times. 

It's RIGHT up my alley, haha.

The answer to this and just about every other question regarding Guzzi marketing and model decisions over the last 30 years is covered in Dave Richardsons new book. Its worth reading, it has the answers.

Well that just went to the top of my reading list. Ta.

Dave's other book is good too. 

[Roebling3]

I believe P'joe's limited aluminum 'allotment' for each of its children,does not include MG. It really rots that in this century MG makes damned near everything out of iron. Does any other manufacturer build 750cc bikes with the performance of 500cc's and the weight of an 850?. Yes, I'm old enough to be grumpy. I don't need the stress and danger of riding 500# motor bikes. Most of the fleet is going on the block. Anything weighing more than 400#'s is out of here.  R3~

[lucian]

any thread worthy enough to bring father Pete back into the discussion is worthy of all of us chiming in as well. I have been guilty of the same wet dreams as  brother Huzo . I actually was really enamored with the new v85 intro but held back in anticipation of what may never be. My feeling is that all the cards are in there favor ,at this point of sport bike development. Whats out there now has soo much horsepower that they need nanny aids just to keep street riders from becoming statistics. If anyone can build a masterpiece of art and function for sport street enthusiast, without all the overkill of track purpose top end, Guzzi can. And by the time they get it done I'll be ready with cash in hand.  It will happen , they have been at it way to long to forget their past. And as time marches on the  market void grows ever larger.

[Huzo]

any thread worthy enough to bring father Pete back into the discussion is worthy of all of us chiming in as well. I have been guilty of the same wet dreams as  brother Huzo . I actually was really enamored with the new v85 intro but held back in anticipation of what may never be. My feeling is that all the cards are in there favor ,at this point of sport bike development. Whats out there now has soo much horsepower that they need nanny aids just to keep street riders from becoming statistics. If anyone can build a masterpiece of art and function for sport street enthusiast, without all the overkill of track purpose top end, Guzzi can. And by the time they get it done I'll be ready with cash in hand.  It will happen , they have been at it way to long to forget their past. And as time marches on the  market void grows ever larger.

My main gripe was and still is Lucian, that there is a nucleus of otherwise well informed people out there who are incredulous that such a device would be considered. They are just saying it because their contemporaries are saying it.
Again I suggest..
If a dealer had 20 Panigale’s and 20 MGS’ on his floor both road ready, he’d sell out of the Guzzi first.
Outright power is no longer the drawcard that it was, the raw appeal of an optioned up MGS, would eclipse the Ducati in the desirability stakes.
Why would an MGS with a cosmetically re worked Griso engine, be more expensive than a Panigale or similar ?

[Murray]

If a dealer had 20 Panigale’s and 20 MGS’ on his floor both road ready, he’d sell out of the Guzzi first.
Outright power is no longer the drawcard that it was, the raw appeal of an optioned up MGS, would eclipse the Ducati in the desirability stakes.
Why would an MGS with a cosmetically re worked Griso engine, be more expensive than a Panigale or similar ?

I think you are off with the fairies thinking the Guzzi would sell first,
The Griso motor isn't road legal it doesn't pass emissions, it's too old.
MGS would be more expensive there is this thing called scale of economy,
The Griso and Guzzi's layout precludes a number of not so modern sport bike feature like slipper clutches etc.
Outright power still matters, most sport bike buyers do track days pretty regularly and some of us don't live in a police state :P .

[Kremmen]

. I actually was really enamored with the new v85 intro but held back in anticipation of what may never be.

Yeah, I know that feeling.

Way more pessimistic nowadays though. Took a lot to get me there, I believed in the MGS 01 Serie and the VA10 and the 2008 Terblanche bikes and the TTR1200 and even the first few of the yearly "new Le Mans definitely actually happening" rumours... I sat up and paid attention again to the ALL NEW V85 ENGINE, WE'RE GOING TO DO A WHOLE SERIES OF EXCITING NEW BIKES YOU GUYS, NO REALLY WE MEAN IT THIS TIME, IT'S ALL NEW SO COMPLETELY NEW stuff. But...it's just a refresh on the smallblock...isn't it? Is it me who's mad or just the factory and we're all humouring them? OK, great job getting more power out of it and meeting Euro Umpteen, but geeze some of the marketing. 

They've abandoned sports machines and litre motors and now even cruisers. What are we down to now - 3 basic models? They've got lucky with a well-received ADV at the height of a craze for that kind of machine but fashion is fickle and this tiny line-up makes the DeTomaso era look like a golden age by comparison.

So it would be reassuring to see evidence, soon, that someone at Piaggio sees Guzzi as more than an almost boutique hipster-bike/ADV maker. But I don't really think we will see anything on the V85 platform beyond modest V85 variants. It's already been 2 years.

[Kremmen]

Outright power still matters, most sport bike buyers do track days pretty regularly and some of us don't live in a police state :P .

Can't argue. I think they'd have shifted a good number of bikes in 2002-2005 or so but the gulf which has opened up since then is just massive; 122hp looks quaint now and if you take a good close look at a Panigale, which I did the other day...well. I'd *love* for Guzzi to throw a bone but that'd be much of the year's budget gone on something that they'd sell to me and a handful of other weirdo obsessives. It's the kind of thing that a bespoke/boutique maker might do but not the factory, under Piaggio.

Reckon we're not going to get anything really interesting from Guzzi again before the end of petrol but I look forward to the inevitable EV 'tribute' bikes with their distinctive "air cooled V-twin" battery packs... 

[Murray]

Reckon we're not going to get anything really interesting from Guzzi again before the end of petrol but I look forward to the inevitable EV 'tribute' bikes with their distinctive "air cooled V-twin" battery packs... 

This where I see opportunity Piaggio are messing with hybrids and the like with the MP3 etc, they should go racing with the Guzzi brand which has traditionally been and engineering based brand in the Zero GP/TT series won't encroach on Aprilia's road racing efforts, it is a long term thing 4-5years before we really see something for the road, Guzzi is so obscure in the public's eye they won't have the mountain to climb that HD have with the Livewire. They can keep punching out V7's to keep the base customers happy.

[blu guzz]

someone posted either here or another site about a competition between a new Pangale and a 2005 GSX1000.  Two good amatuer riders.  Both riders were able to post faster laps on the old Gixxer.  they said that they felt more comfortable on the older bike (less power, less nannies). 
so, if a 122 hp bike was brought out today that was very controllable, composed and that inspired rider confidence, could a good rider make use of it and more importantly, would he pay for the honor (if shaft drive)?  maybe they are scratching their corporate heads over this in Mandelo, or, just going out to get another cupachino?   

[Huzo]

someone posted either here or another site about a competition between a new Pangale and a 2005 GSX1000.  Two good amatuer riders.  Both riders were able to post faster laps on the old Gixxer.  they said that they felt more comfortable on the older bike (less power, less nannies). 
so, if a 122 hp bike was brought out today that was very controllable, composed and that inspired rider confidence, could a good rider make use of it and more importantly, would he pay for the honor (if shaft drive)?  maybe they are scratching their corporate heads over this in Mandelo, or, just going out to get another cupachino?

Yeppp...

[Murray]

someone posted either here or another site about a competition between a new Pangale and a 2005 GSX1000.  Two good amatuer riders.  Both riders were able to post faster laps on the old Gixxer.  they said that they felt more comfortable on the older bike (less power, less nannies). 
so, if a 122 hp bike was brought out today that was very controllable, composed and that inspired rider confidence, could a good rider make use of it and more importantly, would he pay for the honor (if shaft drive)?  maybe they are scratching their corporate heads over this in Mandelo, or, just going out to get another cupachino?

The Griso never made 120hp Guzzi had to squeeze the old Daytona motor pretty hard to get it for the MGS, output of a 2005 GSXR1000 is closer to 160hp, even back in that era 122hp wasn't really a  competitive sports bike.

[Kremmen]

That's a fun vid that one. I think they concluded the North American importer had fitted a softer shock spring on the Panigale for some reason and it was affecting performance.

A 122HP bike would sell, sure, eh 45HP bikes sell. But if it looks like it should be able to blitz everything on the planet? It's up against 300HP opposition these days which is as sexy and infinitely more refined.

I'd be fine with that myself, but I'm okay with it being a little bit weird to be fine with that.

[Kremmen]

This where I see opportunity Piaggio are messing with hybrids and the like with the MP3 etc, they should go racing with the Guzzi brand which has traditionally been and engineering based brand in the Zero GP/TT series won't encroach on Aprilia's road racing efforts, it is a long term thing 4-5years before we really see something for the road, Guzzi is so obscure in the public's eye they won't have the mountain to climb that HD have with the Livewire. They can keep punching out V7's to keep the base customers happy.

Sounds logical to me. Build some enthusiasm in the base/wear down resistance for the new tech at the same time. If it's already been around for years as race kit it's not going to be as much of a wrench making the switch, yeah? Desirable, even.

[blu guzz]

i wasn't thinking of a hyperbike, just a great sport bike that you could squeeze everything out of with a great big honking torque band.

[Two Checks]

There comes a point where you can't keep on dressing up the same old turds.
Guzzi needs something new, and proven before they release it. They didn't prove the hydro engines before their release. Look what happened. How many repair kits were issued?
And calling the V85 engine modern is like saying the Model T is up to date.
Guzzi is trying to be the Vespa of motorcycles.

[Huzo]

There comes a point where you can't keep on dressing up the same old turds.
Guzzi needs something new, and proven before they release it. They didn't prove the hydro engines before their release. Look what happened. How many repair kits were issued?
And calling the V85 engine modern is like saying the Model T is up to date.
Guzzi is trying to be the Vespa of motorcycles.

After a while it ceases to matter what “they” call it..
You either want one or you don’t. I put my deposit down when the first post appeared here on WG, I was having one regardless.
As soon as the 200 hp bikes are relegated to the back shed because all the owners have lost their licences, the reality of their worthlessness will become apparent, who buys a Hyabusa these days ?
Case in point, I would not buy another 30 hp for my Norge or V85 if it was gunna’ cost me ten bucks. If you turn up to a ride day here in Oz on a Desmosedici or similar these days, you look like a tosser.
That great philosopher Bob Dylan put it best when he said...
“The times they are a changin’...”

[blu guzz]

for guzzi to squeeze something north of 130hp, it would probably have to be water cooled.  then, to me, it wouldn't be a guzzi.  i l have had water cooled and it was ok, but i like guzzi specifically because the engine sits proud because it doesn't look like a patient in the emergency ward with hoses going in and out and it doesn't need a bunch of plastic to cover it's ugliness.  would you want it?

[Turin]

You can squeeze 130 -140 out of a high cam engine, just don't expect to be tiddling about on it or putting on loads of miles. I have a magazine test somewhere, Cycle World i think. I'll have to go hunting through the stack. Anywho, they had a pro-rider test it and his thoughts were it was a 25lbs to heavy and needed more horsepower.

 I think at 122 hp, back in 2003 it would be right up there with a 999 or a mille. If they introduced a street version now, and it wasn't crazy expensive, I might be a player.

[Murray]

You can squeeze 130 -140 out of a high cam engine, just don't expect to be tiddling about on it or putting on loads of miles. I have a magazine test somewhere, Cycle World i think. I'll have to go hunting through the stack. Anywho, they had a pro-rider test it and his thoughts were it was a 25lbs to heavy and needed more horsepower.

 I think at 122 hp, back in 2003 it would be right up there with a 999 or a mille. If they introduced a street version now, and it wasn't crazy expensive, I might be a player.

I think that was a millepercento big block more than a hi cam which is water cooled. As for not buying a Guzzi because of the aesthetics of its cooling system it's not really part of the criteria for me anyway.

[Turin]

The Millepercento is a total different kettle of fish.  Dynotec GmbH coaxes stupid amounts out of Guzzilla.
https://www.translatetheweb.com/?from=de&to=en&ref=SERP&refd=www.bing.com&dl=en&rr=UC&a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.dynotec.de%2f

I'm curious how many hours these engines are meant to run before a teardown.

[Kremmen]

would you want it?

Yes. Even a Honda CX has those good transverse v-twin vibes, I rode a clapped out one 9000kms around Europe in a month or two. Tons of fun, got back almost what I paid for it too. I'd probably have been a pre-order buyer for one or other of the VA10-engined things that might've been. 

[Kremmen]

I'm curious how many hours these engines are meant to run before a teardown.

I'm presuming it's a case of 'if you need to ask', haha. Awesome things though.

Edit - Turin, did you mean the MGS or the Millepercento big bore?