Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Huzo on October 07, 2022, 10:40:10 AM
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Short and sweet.
Norge refused to start in Millau Camping ground.
The yellow fuse blows when key is on.
(https://i.ibb.co/3RQBsk5/FD0-B5-B10-1-E51-43-B5-864-C-BB4-B12888-EA9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3RQBsk5)
Bike cranks, red triangle and SERVICE light on.
Anyone know what fuse this covers ?
I’ll look in the on line manual .
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Ok.
Fuel pump/coils/injectors
Because it’s blowing the fuse, I can’t even crank it and check for spark, fuel swirl or injector delivery.
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Have you tried swapping the 20 with a 30 and see if it does the same thing? I presume you have some spare fuses?
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Crap, my sympathies on this happening.
I don't know if this is possible or easy on a Norge or what tools you have, but: If a visual check for burnt or melted connectors and components (or bare wire touching frame.) doesn't point to a suspect, I would disconnect all systems associated with that fuse, then turn on the ignition and connect one at a time until a new fuse blows. You might need a few spare fuses to narrow it down. My guess of what's most likely: fuel pump. Pump motor failure or blockage causing abnormally high current draw. If it's the pump, it might run for a while with a new fuse. Or not.
Long shot: Maybe vent on gas cap not working, causing a vacuum to form in gas tank? Remove it while listening for the whoosh of air.
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Disconnect the battery for a few minutes then try?
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Have you tried swapping the 20 with a 30 and see if it does the same thing? I presume you have some spare fuses?
I would do that, but even if it doesn’t blow the 30, it still doesn’t point to the issue.
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Crap, my sympathies on this happening.
I don't know if this is possible or easy on a Norge or what tools you have, but: If a visual check for burnt or melted connectors and components (or bare wire touching frame.) doesn't point to a suspect, I would disconnect all systems associated with that fuse, then turn on the ignition and connect one at a time until a new fuse blows. You might need a few spare fuses to narrow it down. My guess of what's most likely: fuel pump. Pump motor failure or blockage causing abnormally high current draw. If it's the pump, it might run for a while with a new fuse. Or not.
Long shot: Maybe vent on gas cap not working, causing a vacuum to form in gas tank? Remove it while listening for the whoosh of air.
That might be a good place to start.
There’s a bike shop in town, I’ll see if I can get it into there.
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Best of luck to you. It stinks breaking down!
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Best of luck to you. It stinks breaking down!
Yes.
It could have been in a better place, but also could have been a HELL OF A LOT WORSE….!
Still a bugger though.
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I would do that, but even if it doesn’t blow the 30, it still doesn’t point to the issue.
I'm working up to a more complicated solution...was starting with a simple first step to see if that would at least allow you to start the bike, and then possibly ride it to a shop.
Did you buy any chance bring your laptop and Lonelec cables with you to plug in Guzzidiag?
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I'm working up to a more complicated solution...was starting with a simple first step to see if that would at least allow you to start the bike, and then possibly ride it to a shop.
Even if I managed to start it, if it stopped half way to the shop, then I’d be stuck in the city on a Saturday afternoon.
At the moment I’m in a camping park.
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Try unplugging the fuel pump elec. connector , if fuse holds when key goes on you've found the short. Sound like a possible fuel pump problem. Maybe just a shorted wire and not a bad pump. :popcorn:
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Just sent you a PM. I know just the man who would be delighted to help if he's not on the golf course :grin:
You will be in the best hands this side of Bungadore
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Just sent you a PM. I know just the man who would be delighted to help if he's not on the golf course :grin:
You will be in the best hands this side of Bungadore
I’ll call in the morning Chris.
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Try unplugging the fuel pump elec. connector , if fuse holds when key goes on you've found the short. Sound like a possible fuel pump problem. Maybe just a shorted wire and not a bad pump. :popcorn:
Berniebee is on the same track Lucian. That’s the route I’ll go, but thanks to all that have taken an interest.
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Did you buy any chance bring your laptop and Lonelec cables with you to plug in Guzzidiag?
Nah mate…
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Huzo, You have the good Karma force working for you.....
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Similar thing with my Greenie, fuel pump. Kept blowing bigger fuses and would go a few miles. I thought a new filter might fix it, didn't... needed a fuel pump. I'm not the mechanical person here as you know. Good luck.
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Trouble with the fuel pump theory, is that the fuse doesn’t blow until you touch the starter..(I think)
The pump is swirling from when you turn the key on…(supposedly).
But I’ll check that when I get up. I have to get a collection of 20 A ones first.
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For what it’s worrh, my 2006 red Norge exhibited the same symptoms but intermittently.
Turned out to be an uninsulated spade terminal feeding one of the four headlight bulbs. The terminal floated around, occasionally touching the earthed headlight shell thus blowing the main fuse.
The Norge headlight only comes on as the engine starts. That may explain why the fuse blows as you touch the starter.
If your Norge has the same fault as mine, it will blow the fuse on high beam but not low beam. Or vice versa.
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Trouble with the fuel pump theory, is that the fuse doesn’t blow until you touch the starter..(I think)
The pump is swirling from when you turn the key on…(supposedly).
But I’ll check that when I get up. I have to get a collection of 20 A ones first.
If that's correct, will it bump start ie leave the starter alone
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For what it’s worrh, my 2006 red Norge exhibited the same symptoms but intermittently.
Turned out to be an uninsulated spade terminal feeding one of the four headlight bulbs. The terminal floated around, occasionally touching the earthed headlight shell thus blowing the main fuse.
The Norge headlight only comes on as the engine starts. That may explain why the fuse blows as you touch the starter.
If your Norge has the same fault as mine, it will blow the fuse on high beam but not low beam. Or vice versa.
^^^^ this, check for a melted ground on the taililte socket as well.
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^^^^ this, check for a melted ground on the taililte socket as well
The fuse that blows only protects the coils, injectors and fuel pump.
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Huzo
I had a look at the circuit diagram. As you have discovered it appears that fuse supplies power to the fuel pump, injectors and coils (5 plugs).
As it does not blow immediately and only when you touch the starter it is unlikely to be the fuel pump as it normally pressurizes when you first turn on the key.
The logic I am using is either an injector or coil is drawing two much current. The circuit appears to work by that fuse supplying 12 volts and the ECU providing the earth as required.
Provided you have some spare fuses I would put in a fuse and disconnect the injector and coil plugs. The bike should then crank over but not start and not blow the fuse. If it does the fuel pump is looking likely.
I would then connect the Left or Right injector and Coil plug. The bike should then crank over and hopefully start on one cylinder. If it blows the fuse try the other side. If you can isolate a side then plug in either the injector or coil for the faulty side.
Once you have found the component it is a replace job I would expect.
This is a start
Steve
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Just for information’s sake…
(https://i.ibb.co/x74n2qt/2-F636-A4-D-B0-FD-443-B-BFA2-E49-C57-EE17-E8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x74n2qt)
(https://i.ibb.co/d7LjLjT/87-E182-A0-7922-4-FE9-B28-D-FBE80-BAB982-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7LjLjT)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZBx7JcV/EB9-B4990-A24-B-4-E46-A0-ED-0748-D656-E54-D.png) (https://ibb.co/ZBx7JcV)
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#27 & #31 point to injector circuit issue.
Is the “A” column for active and the “O” for stored faults ?
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Looking at the fault codes and wire diagram it would appear that the injectors are the last connection on the power wire.
All of the fault codes show you are on the right track.
A quick google search shows the x as no or incorrect signal.
A broken wire either from pin 37 or 28 of the black ecu connector that is now shorted to ground would most likely show up this fault.
Now I am going to take a stab here, as far as I can tell the ECU is located under the front of the tank. Have you got a tank bag on the bike?
Have you moved anything near the front of the tank since you pulled into the camp ground?
If you have it may have interfered with the ecu plug/wires. Faults often don't happen without a cause.
Steve
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If that's correct, will it bump start ie leave the starter alone
That’s true Tris, but I can’t test that theory because I might end up at the bottom of a hill..!
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Looking at the fault codes and wire diagram it would appear that the injectors are the last connection on the power wire.
All of the fault codes show you are on the right track.
A quick google search shows the x as no or incorrect signal.
A broken wire either from pin 37 or 28 of the black ecu connector that is now shorted to ground would most likely show up this fault.
Now I am going to take a stab here, as far as I can tell the ECU is located under the front of the tank. Have you got a tank bag on the bike?
Have you moved anything near the front of the tank since you pulled into the camp ground?
If you have it may have interfered with the ecu plug/wires. Faults often don't happen without a cause.
Steve
The bike was perfect.
I turned it off to answer a question and from then on it did this.
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Did a couple of things and this happened… https://youtu.be/ijK8IAQgvIc
I’ll elaborate later, thanks to one and all.
Peter.
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That looks like a good outcome, don't leave us in suspenders for to long. The ride up and chafe a bit.
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That looks like a good outcome, don't leave us in suspenders for to long. The ride up and chafe a bit.
Messed around with some remnants of left over wiring from a Power Commander I once had pre Roper.
I THINK the GND (ground) warning on the DTC readout, suggests power interruption, not short circuit, but I cannot justify that very well because a blown fuse suggests the short circuit.
Anyway, going back down to Frenchfrog’s (Christopher) to attend to it properly in an actual workshop.
Again, thanks to one and all, equally..
Huzo.
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Bravo H :thumb:
Hopefully once you get it into a dry well lit workshop the permanent fix will become clear
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Bravo H :thumb:
Hopefully once you get it into a dry well lit workshop the permanent fix will become clear
On ya’ Tris.
I always place a fair bit of store on what you say… :thumb:
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Did a couple of things and this happened… https://youtu.be/ijK8IAQgvIc
I’ll elaborate later, thanks to one and all.
Peter.
YES! :thumb:
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Nice work. It was fun to watch from the bleachers. Yet another story for your dotage Huzo.
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The bike was perfect.
I turned it off to answer a question and from then on it did this.
Those situations are maddening!!!!
In those situations, my first thoughts are "WTF? Are you effing kidding me?"
Since it happened in a pretty good location, you might be getting rewarded for good Karma. Or you might be getting punished for bd Karma.
or it might be based souly on the hardware involved and the laws of physics.
Best of luck!
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Did a couple of things and this happened… https://youtu.be/ijK8IAQgvIc
I’ll elaborate later, thanks to one and all.
Peter.
What a great looking bike! I was hoping to hear some Strayan commentary...... hopefully with enough of an accent that I have to access the Universal Language Translator that comes on all computers these days....
"SUONO?"
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Gotta love a "Happy ending" Karma Baby...
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Happy to see this!! WOO-HOO Huzo! :thumb: :thumb:
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it sounds like you are running again, congratulations
my wife was watching an Australian cooking show when i fired up your video, much cheering from the TV
in a situation blowing fuses the pump is powered up alone when you turn the key ON it only draws about 5 Amps normally but will draw up to 9 with the outlet blocked, still shouldn't blow the fuse.
its only later when you crank the the injectors and coils fire up
if anywhere on the red wire is grounded of course the fuse will blow.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
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I've just looked at the wiring diagram tha Roy put up and spotted something.
The 15A fuse amongst other things seems to feed the speed sensor too.
My old 05 B1100 dropped dead the morning after I'd been riding in the rain, and after a 3 month marathon of checking and much frustration tracked it to the speed sensor shorting out.
If you're initial thoughts don't bear fruit have a look at the speed sensor, but bear in mind it might be drying out and giving you a false sense of security.
Good Luck
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What a great looking bike! I was hoping to hear some Strayan commentary...... hopefully with enough of an accent that I have to access the Universal Language Translator that comes on all computers these days....
"SUONO?"
The irony has not escaped me, but translated into Italian it means “Beautiful sound….” :rolleyes:
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Gotta love a "Happy ending" Karma Baby...
Yeah “happy ending…” (a hundred lines and I can’t use one of them..)
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While doing some preventative maintenance at Frenchfrog’s home, I took off the tank and the airbox.
Is this unit on the front of the airbox, the evap canister ?
(https://i.ibb.co/6sFvBfP/DB72692-E-BCFB-44-CB-B413-74-DDC32-E391-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6sFvBfP)
If so, can I remove it or is there a consequence ?
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Isn’t that the oil breather?
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Isn’t that the oil breather?
Dunno mate.
Just a square black plastic thing… :popcorn:
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I looked it up, yep it’s the breather so no you can’t get rid of it.
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While doing some preventative maintenance at Frenchfrog’s home, I took off the tank and the airbox.
Is this unit on the front of the airbox, the evap canister ?
(https://i.ibb.co/6sFvBfP/DB72692-E-BCFB-44-CB-B413-74-DDC32-E391-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6sFvBfP)
If so, can I remove it or is there a consequence ?
That's the crankcase breather.
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The Evap cannister is unmistakable. Has a hose running into the top and another out the bottom. Fits gently into the tail space of the norge rear underseat. First thing I cut out when I brought it home reclaiming the valuable real estate for other more important items.
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Yeah “happy ending…” (a hundred lines and I can’t use one of them..)
Life is so unfair!!!!!
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Life is so unfair!!!!!
Sometimes SRE, it’s what you DON’T say… :wink:
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Well.
Had another bout of trouble involving triangles of death and complete stoppage in city traffic.
Pushed the bike 1.2 km back to the Hotel and spent a sleepless night wondering how it would all pan out. The battery was going flat and all sorts of warnings were going off…I think I got a 1202 alarm, so must be circuit boards from the old Apollo stock…!
Anyway, I went out in the morning to see if the bike would start or did I have to walk to the shop for my new battery which I was sure was rooted.
Pushed the button and she fired..!
Once I got to the shop I purchased a new battery and disappeared off for 4 hours while it was being activated and charged. I would have liked to follow Pete’s tutelage and let the acid soak into the mat, but they were closing and I only had the 4 hours.
So while I was preparing the space for the battery I happened to turn over a fuse block and I saw this….
(https://i.ibb.co/tzX31Dy/47-A51261-DCAD-45-F7-BE9-F-B9-F506-F4-AD7-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tzX31Dy)
I don’t know if burning plastic insulation and blown fuses would contribute to unreliability issues, but I’m going with it for now… :rolleyes:
Anyway.
It’s because I moved the small fuse box from the back under the seat to free up some space and displaced the (now) affected one to a less suitable spot, the insulation had become non flexible in the warm under seat environment and split, allowing the bare wires to rub together with predictable results…
I’m lucky I didn’t set fire to the poor bugger…What a tool…!
So tomorrow it will be an easy fix to strip the wires back a bit to the good clean stuff and locate the fuse block properly, I am with Francois who lives in the countryside in Auvergne.
Except for the blown CARC which I don’t think you can pin on the bike as such, I have never had an issue with the Norge that I did not contribute to in some way.
I have learned a big lesson here….
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At least you spotted it before it set fire to the bike!!!
And another easy fix too...
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Good to hear you may have found the culprit...I'm shocked, I mean shocked that you had a Power Commander on it. I thought those were verboten in Australia!
:thumb: :thumb:
Apart from these few mechanical issues, I'm sure you're having an amazing time!!!
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Good to hear you may have found the culprit...I'm shocked, I mean shocked that you had a Power Commander on it. I thought those were verboten in Australia!
:thumb: :thumb:
Apart from these few mechanical issues, I'm sure you're having an amazing time!!!
That was pre Roper and Beetle.
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That was pre Roper and Beetle.
I figured as much...just joshing a bit! :)
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Except for the blown CARC which I don’t think you can pin on the bike as such, I have never had an issue with the Norge that I did not contribute to in some way.
I have learned a big lesson here….
Luckily, there is a youTube video to instruct you on how to fix almost any problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4q6eaLn2mY
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Hey…!
That 1202 alarm that I got might have been correct, my brain circuitry was overloaded at the time just like the ‘11 crew.
Also come to think of it, I was looking into the tank when I smelled the hot plastic.
Like the ‘13 crew, I was (technically speaking) “stirring the tank” when I got the short… :popcorn:
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..
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Except for the blown CARC which I don’t think you can pin on the bike as such...
I've read your posts and seen the pictures about that incident. It seems the pinion nut came lose and the pinion was floating around.
I've been thinking about how it could happen.
I noticed how the bike jumps with a little throttle. I feel a kick in the rear.
It also does the opposite when letting go the throttle at mid revs, 3-4000 rpm.
Can this back and forth create sudden torque at the rear pinion to undo the nut?
I've been riding more gently lately. Opening the throttle slowly and letting go gradually.
We might benefit from a fuel map that is more gradual.
But who wants to go slow on this bike!? I wish it had ride modes.
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I've read your posts and seen the pictures about that incident. It seems the pinion nut came lose and the pinion was floating around.
I've been thinking about how it could happen.
I noticed how the bike jumps with a little throttle. I feel a kick in the rear.
It also does the opposite when letting go the throttle at mid revs, 3-4000 rpm.
Can this back and forth create sudden torque at the rear pinion to undo the nut?
I've been riding more gently lately. Opening the throttle slowly and letting go gradually.
We might benefit from a fuel map that is more gradual.
But who wants to go slow on this bike!? I wish it had ride modes.
You’ve got all the modes you want in your right wrist.
Yours being an ‘07, has no rubber in the end of the torque arm, you can fit one in each end and it softens the response.
Also in the lower gears, I just crack the clutch as I roll from power on to off.
Also, the torque could not undo the nut unless the splines were shagged.
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Well she’s back home finally.
The familiar long legged feel was a welcome reminder as I headed up the freeway towards home. So many times on the V85, I’ve reached for another gear at 120 kph and there is none…
This time there was…!
The first thing I saw when I walked in the depot.
(https://i.ibb.co/KFGgqKR/44-C90748-8-EB5-438-C-A408-A243-AECF6-BC8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KFGgqKR)
I just never get tired of it…(damn comfortable too).
Anyway home now and will do the rest of her time in Australia.
The end…
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Welcome home! If only the bike could talk.
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As much as you like that bike have you considered getting another just like it? Might be fun to start looking for a low mileage one that you can make the improvements you like on that one. If it’s not in the budget you could call it “assembled spare parts” . That’s how the government does it here if they want another and it’s not in the budget. You could keep it on another continent, saving shipping costs.
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Welcome home! If only the bike could talk.
Yes Scout.
I’ve never heard it talk, but it speaks to me constantly.
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As much as you like that bike have you considered getting another just like it? Might be fun to start looking for a low mileage one that you can make the improvements you like on that one. If it’s not in the budget you could call it “assembled spare parts” . That’s how the government does it here if they want another and it’s not in the budget. You could keep it on another continent, saving shipping costs.
That has to be a good idea John, no matter which way you look at it. It has crossed my mind both times that this happened.
(https://i.ibb.co/HNZTtBc/3394321-A-56-E9-42-FB-9-D68-2392058-D5-AE2.png) (https://ibb.co/HNZTtBc)
(https://i.ibb.co/D8TqJvJ/67-E329-FA-A418-46-B6-86-F6-8-AA3-B61-FAAF4.png) (https://ibb.co/D8TqJvJ)
Once in Australia and once in Italy.
But here’s the thing…
If I did that, the donor bike would eventually sit in the workshop with enough pieces gone from it such that it was no longer a bike, but just a reminder of what it used to be. I would feel the same as if I’d cafe’d my Mk 2 Le Mans, although I never really got to like that one.
But in any case it would have been a “wasted” bike in my view.
Also.
When the bevelbox let go a couple of years back, I could easily have bought another one on e bay, but I didn’t want a REPLACEMENT one, I wanted MINE…
Thanks to Roper and Michael, that’s how it turned out… :bow: :thumb:
I now look at it and like it more BECAUSE it blew up, not in spite of it…
Finally.
I think the late, great JFK put it best when he said.
“We choose to do these and the other things, not because they are easy…
But because they are hard…”
Sending your bike to Europe every year is not hard, but IS damned expensive and that is why I work 10 months, to spend it in two.
When I’m half way between Brisbane and Alice Springs at 3 in the morning in the truck as the very first glow of the Summer dawn begins to hint at it’s arrival and I feel like no one else on Earth is awake, I’m reminded of why I’m not at home in bed…
(https://i.ibb.co/dGHRTPN/18023901-B6-A3-41-EC-A1-D3-8-B345-BE26-B53.png) (https://ibb.co/dGHRTPN)
Moments like this
(https://i.ibb.co/Mskdty5/0-F565-C4-F-91-B8-4700-BE47-39-A59579-B8-B3.png) (https://ibb.co/Mskdty5)
Warm Sun and freezing dawn air is a strange combination, but an intoxicating one…
May it always be the same.
When I walk into the depot in London, I don’t want to see a red Norge, I want to see MY Red Norge.
Any other way is too… “easy”.
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Thanks, that’s a good way to think about it. When I did that I eventually took the best of both Ambassadors and made one. It took a while to get the second one going and it eventually became parts for other ones . i miss em