Wildguzzi.com
General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: cliffrod on August 29, 2019, 10:58:31 PM
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Just posted a few pics in general discussion, so will start this thread. A lot of pics are being held hostage in my daughter's old & dysfunctional iPhone. For now, a little general background and info on the past year.
In 1969, Moto Guzzi lacked a racing, sport or performance version of their new flagship V Twin engine. They enlisted Lino Tonti to repurpose two new Ambassadors to demonstrate the performance potential of the new V Twin engine platform. One would compete in 750 cc class and one in 1000 cc class. The stock bikes were basically stripped, then specifically equipped & modified for the task at hand. Over two days at Monza in October 1969, 19 world records were set. These two bikes were never campaigned or used otherwise. One was retired to the MG factory museum, where it remains to this day. The other one came to the USA through Berliner. It was sold to a private individual and was ultimately parted out and forever lost.
These World Record achievements were widely publicized by MG, including in subsequent contemporary magazine ads. Based upon the results, MG began development of a dedicated V Twin sport model. Tonti was reported disappointed with the loop frame's performance, so he designed a totally new frame for the new sport model. The result was the V7 Sport, with the now legendary Tonti frame. The World Record bikes are the forefathers of all subsequent factory sport bikes and provided many styling cues for later models.
I've had my V7 Sport for many years. Never had a Loop or much interest in them. In July 2018, I acquired an incomplete 1967 V700 (complete frame and front end, driveline and swing arm with no wheels/brakes, final drive, speedo, sheet metal, etc) for $200.00 with the intent of parting it out. As we were unloading it at home I found the engine turned with compression. Then I learned more about the Record bikes and decided such a build would make a great partner for my V7 Sport. I sold nearly all my bikes establishing my studio and such a project is exactly what I've planned to do for many, many years.
Between July 2018 and July 2019, most time was spent chasing regular and obscure parts, doing research and making some actual build progress. Greg Bender put me in touch with another fan (who has been a great help) who is building a more faithful replica of the original racetrack-dedicated Record bikes. Mine is intended to be close to the original bikes, but will be a street legal bike with lights. The original bikes were purpose-built tools that were used and essentially discarded, not refined machines produced per committee & engineering edict. I hope to deliberately produce a comparable result in a nod towards authenticity of their spontaneous, utilitarian development, but not because I cannot produce accurate work.
This project is as much sculpture as functional motorcycle to me. I plan to both ride it and enjoy it as a work of art. I'm not building it to satisfy anyone except me. Metal shaping & panel work is a different means of exploring shape for me. It is not a reductive or additive method. It is about moving only the surface plane into a new configuration. My available time and funds vary significantly, so I have no set schedule for completion. After the bike is completely built, I will address the mechanical rebuild.
I'll likely edit to add some pics as I coordinate between multiple devices. If you're interested, check back at these initial posts. Right now, I'm trying to get started.
There's limited accurate information about these bikes and the various configurations in which they are pictured. Nearly all we have are contemporary pictures and additional modern pictures taken at the MG Museum.
Some pics-
This screenshot is a picture from Monza of one of the bikes without fairing, different front end detail and no rear brakes-
(https://i.ibb.co/0r54TLh/image.png) (https://ibb.co/0r54TLh)
Other side, maybe the same bike but not sure-
(https://i.ibb.co/XYVbJgL/image.png) (https://ibb.co/XYVbJgL)
I began with very simple templates (tank was made from a Busch Light case chipboard) and then began producing a clay model on wood armature of half of the tank and seat. I regularly do clay or plastilina models for my professional sculpture work, with only pictures or drawings as reference. This process was no different. No CAD, no CNC. Just low tech pencil, paper, ruler, bandsaw, belt sander, etc. and lots of practice.
(https://i.ibb.co/Pxm3Ydf/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pxm3Ydf)
Studying other bike builds, many people will build a tank shell and then try to figure out how to do the tank tunnel & mount as an afterthought. Not cool. I wanted to design the tunnel first. My V7 Sport has oem tank bushings around the top tube that I like much better than the typical foam & electrical tape.. Problem is the Loop frame top tube is much larger. After searching for an off the shelf item, like a large sway bar bushing, I made what I needed. I sourced some urethane spring die stock via craigslist. This material was sawed to width. The center was offset cut to diameter with a hole saw, using a fixture to hold the die stock. The rest of the shaping was done with belt sander and grinder.
(https://i.ibb.co/rkyLFhw/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rkyLFhw)
(https://i.ibb.co/VJrtLFp/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VJrtLFp)
(https://i.ibb.co/1sKTdZs/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1sKTdZs)
I also made two 1/2" thick bumpers to match the tank bushings. I'll mount these to help keep the tank vertical-
(https://i.ibb.co/9c74wH3/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9c74wH3)
Bushings on the frame-
(https://i.ibb.co/5r05fJ0/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5r05fJ0)
Along with bike details like the distributor and coil, these tank bushings helped develop the pattern for the tunnel as the buck was produced.
After the clay models of tank and seat were deemed suitable, I developed poster board templates directly from the clay to produce buck stations. These patterns were reversed to provide matching stations for each side of the tank and seat. The tank buck was produced as indentical halves, so the joint between the halves would serve as centerline. Furniture-grade 3/4" maple plywood was used.
Tank backbone halves, assembled-
(https://i.ibb.co/zbJdnsS/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zbJdnsS)
In process, adding stations-
(https://i.ibb.co/GsYbr5M/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GsYbr5M)
Assembled with all stations cut to approximate contour but not faired-
(https://i.ibb.co/tHvPqtH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tHvPqtH)
The seat buck stations were produced as full width upon a solid base.
(https://i.ibb.co/w7JXqjt/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w7JXqjt)
(https://i.ibb.co/MZvQDkq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MZvQDkq)
The rear fender is an abbreviated piece that ends under the seat on the original bikes. Having made a fender eliminator for an XR1000 in the past that was carefully measured but quickly gobbled by the rear wheel, I tried to make this one with adequate clearance. Two radii- one to the front fender mount on the battery tray and the other to the rear fender most on the frame loop- were blended. The cross section fender radius, which is the same on these two original mounts, was also used. A buck was produced using this information.
(https://i.ibb.co/1RbhQYg/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1RbhQYg)
(https://i.ibb.co/n78Ymt0/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n78Ymt0)
langston hughes the negro speaks of rivers analysis (https://poetandpoem.com/critical-analysis-of-the-negro-speaks-of-rivers)
Not sure how long or short the rear fender will actually be. Also not sure how the seat and fender will fit together. Seat may need a slight bulge for clearance. After I make the parts and fit all together with the tail light, more decisions will be made.
Pics of the tank and seat bucks on the bike, very cool...-
(https://i.ibb.co/9cM8T5G/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9cM8T5G)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZxmCXMY/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZxmCXMY)
(https://i.ibb.co/4s1DNjH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4s1DNjH)
More later...
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:popcorn:
This is going to be great... keep it coming!
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Very very good! cool project! Keep the posts coming, I am very interested in the sheet metal shaping side of the project as well as everything else. :thumb: :bow:
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I'll post details about the actual process related to the panel work. I'm a hobbyist but the work extends the reach of my studio. Many aspects parallel my sculpture work in stone. In contrast, metal work is fast, cheap and portable versus comparable projects in stone.
Panel Work has intrigued me since I was a teenager. Saw my first pic of a cast iron English Wheel at a sports car club meeting on the first weekend of April 1987. I kept that magazine and finally got my own cast iron wheeling machine 30 yrs later, almost exactly to the day. No disappointments.
My metal shop is small and already crowded. until a couple weeks ago I had only my English Wheel, stump, B2 Beverly Shear, a couple of arbor presses and some hand tools specifically for this work. I have a TIG but prefer oxygen/acetylene for many jobs. 2 1/2 weeks ago, I purchased a large Gairu MI-8 reciprocating machine (equivalent to a Pullmax P8 Universal Machine) from a race shop near Charlotte Motor Speedway. These are extremely versatile machines and arguably the easiest machines to tool & adapt to a wide range of jobs including beading, forming, shaping, shearing and shrinking. Never expected to have anything like this, but now that it's here I'm anxious to put it into service in the near future. No matter, this work can be done with very simple tools.
I'm on two metalworking forums- www.allmetalshaping.com (http://www.allmetalshaping.com) is a large forum with a very wide range of talent & methods. www.metalshapershub.com (http://www.metalshapershub.com) is a new forum for those focused upon traditional methods. Master metalman Peter Tommasini is the driving force behind MetalShapersHub. He's also the source for my HandBuilt cast iron English Wheel, which he developed and manufactures. This project will be documented on those forums, as well as here. For anyone involved or interested in panelwork and Metal shaping, these forums offer great resource.
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I appreciate this forum just for these incredible (to me) projects. It has expanded my imagination on what is possible to rebuild, for a weekend warrior.
Impatiently awaiting more pictures...
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My projects are often drawn out, with necessary tangents and opportunities taking priority as they arise. Here's a few details of parts chasing over the past year-
Guzzi offered no tachometer on the early Loop bikes. There was no provision in the timing chest for a mechanical tach until the V7 Sport was released and the now familiar Moto Guzi black faced Veglia electronic tach had not yet been produced. We studied pictures to decide the brand of tach used and then I determined the specifc model. No speedometer was fitted. For the Record bikes, Tonti use an aftermarket VDO electric tachometer suitable for 6V or 12V and adjustable for use on 2, 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engines. Apparently it was not a special or highly collectible tachometer. This made finding one to be a challenge.
After enough searching, one dealer was located in the Netherlands who searched his inventory of 1500+ gauges for approx 3 months to produce a single, almost correct NOS tach. The Record bikes had tachs with a black trim ring, presumably to limit potential for glare when riding at high speed. The NOS tach has a chrome trim ring, which I may leave as is or simply paint black. During those three months of unknown results, I found another similar VDO tach. It was/is well used and with the proper blacked-out trim ring, but has an adjustable rev limit pointer with corresponding penetration through the lens. Not sure that it works, but having a one to service just in case was prudent.
(https://i.ibb.co/sPGxmGn/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sPGxmGn)
Carbs
The original Record bikes were built to pursue top speed records. both bikes were equipped with 38mm remote bowl Dellorto SS2 carbs on straightened intakes which point approximately straight towards the respective vertical frame members near the swing arm. My bike did have both original 29mm SS1 carbs, which are tempting to run. But, between their real world traffic manners and the fact that I'll upgrade to 750 cylinders during the mechanical rebuild, I'll likely change carbs. I have an excellent pair of square slide 30mm VHB carbs, just like those on my V7 Sport, and this pair of 32mm PHB carbs, which would look a little more like the original SS2 carbs.
No decision has been made yet- maybe someone can offer feedback from experience, especially regarding changing carbs, intake configuration and adding custom headpipes with reverse cone megaphone exhaust all at once?
(https://i.ibb.co/0yrMY6c/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yrMY6c)
Tail light
A pet peeve with many customs is how often the details cheapen the end result. Seeing another cheap no name aftermarket, Model A, HD limp dick or whatever dime a dozen tail light loses me. This is an Italian bike. It should have Italian parts. One of my all time favorite tail lights that no one uses is the late 50's & early 60's CEV horizontal D tail light that came on bikes like the Ducati Elite and others. It's simply gorgeous. This form apparently inspired many later bikes which feature a larger but similar horizontal D tail light.
This unit originally uses a pair of tiny 6v barrel bulbs, so I will have to upgrade the lamp assembly. I sourced a pair of new tail light assemblies from Italy, which was more economical than buying a single $$$ one on eBay from here in the USA. It will nestle nicely in a trimmed-out portion of the seat hump and be nice having a light with CEV and part numbers on the chrome bezel.... Very cool. Not sure if this will also be the license plate mount I will use, but that would make sense. Once this light, seat and rear fender are arranged and in place, I'll decide how short to cut the rear fender.
(https://i.ibb.co/gySGXkS/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gySGXkS)
After assembling a pair of Tommaselli clip ons and matador levers to use (just because that would match my V7 Sport), I was able to identify and then source a pair of original style clip-ons using welded perches and parallel cable exit. No pics since these bars haven't been ordered yet, but will be ordered with other needed parts directly from Italy as funds allow.
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Hey AC,
Was thinking about your project since seeing it at the Meltdown in may, and your progress by the time of the Guzzi lunch at Greenhouse....
You've got a huge tank there to work with, and judging from the seating position and intended use of the bike... it doesnt seem like you are going to need 4-5 gal of gas capacity for extended long tours or marathon rides (or endurance racing attempts :evil:)
Since you are going the street-legal route, and will have a lot more electronic do-dads and wires and such than the original bikes... it seems you could block out a 'false' section or box in the underside of the tank to stash that stuff along the frame tubes and hide it from view by fitting the tank over it to preserve the look of a race bike. Seems like 3 gallon tank capacity would be more than enough for this rig?
Just a thought, love this project, will be following
Chad
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Hey AC,
Was thinking about your project since seeing it at the Meltdown in may, and your progress by the time of the Guzzi lunch at Greenhouse....
You've got a huge tank there to work with, and judging from the seating position and intended use of the bike... it doesnt seem like you are going to need 4-5 gal of gas capacity for extended long tours or marathon rides (or endurance racing attempts :evil:)
Since you are going the street-legal route, and will have a lot more electronic do-dads and wires and such than the original bikes... it seems you could block out a 'false' section or box in the underside of the tank to stash that stuff along the frame tubes and hide it from view by fitting the tank over it to preserve the look of a race bike. Seems like 3 gallon tank capacity would be more than enough for this rig?
Just a thought, love this project, will be following
Chad
Ive tossed around that idea, Chad. Installing baffles has also been discussed, maybe even with you (?). My CRS and ADD tendencies regularly fight for my full attention....
The one thing that I hate about riding an old Sportster with a stock tank like mine is going 40-50 miles and then knowing there better be gas nearby immediately or else. Even worse with a heavy throttle hand, hotter engine or both. That XR1000 was good for about 30 miles on racing gas. On any significant ride going away from the shop, someone had to follow with extra gas. Not cool. So I think I'm going to err on the side of too much tank and simply underfill it if it's an issue. I don't ride just to ride much anymore. Did that a lot long ago, now there's other responsibilities obligating me all the time.
I do want to be able to ride this bike from here in Spartanburg to Knoxville area on this bike, which is around 200 miles depending upon specifics. There's great roads between here & there that I've ridden & enjoyed for a long time on my Sport. being able to go that distance with one tank, like I can on my Sport, sure beats the Sportster scenario. The overall posture when on this bike is very close to my Sport, which should mean a comparable level of general comfort for such a distance in one bite- except for the thinner padding on the seat.
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This project is largely one of a predicated order. Many of the specific details are dependent upon neighboring changes. The more it was studied, the more clear it became where to begin.
As the build began, one of the first steps was to remove the front end tin. The fork shrouds with headlight ears and chrome spring covers crimped to the lowers were removed from the Record bikes. Springs were left exposed, as was common on many Italian specials and race bikes, and the spring cups were retained. Removing the tins facilitated use of clip-on handlebars. I have always wanted a vintage Italian sporting bike with such exposed springs...
The lower or rear front fender mount was then rotated to be parallel to the fork lowers, a tab was added to each side and then bolted to the upper fender mount receiver. This served as a simple fork brace.
Both chrome covers are waiting to be removed and the fork brace to be finished.
(https://i.ibb.co/3dh51jQ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3dh51jQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/7jpntGW/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7jpntGW)
I will retain the long headlight and fabricate mounts that look related to the great looking headlight ears found on the V7 Sport. The larger headlight will house any necessary electrical components.
The V700 and Ambassador had similar but not identical top fork plates, triple tree, etc. these were steel covered by the large alloy valance that houses the speedometer and warning lights. Everything except the steel plate was missing from my bike. It basically looked like this-
(https://i.ibb.co/GJzjnmk/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GJzjnmk)
At this point,with the tank buck in place, it's obvious that this won't work. So Tonti modified the steel top plate and made a simple aluminum valance to cover it. The V700 front end/top plate has greater offset than later versions. This creates a steeper front end and faster steering which is typically associated with sporting bikes. Jeff, the previously mentioned Record bike fan, modified a V700 offset top plate before learning Tonti used a later top plate with less offset- presumably for a longer wheelbase and greater top speed stability. His build is more accurate than mine. I planned to modify & use my original V700 parts. But before I modified mine, he sent me his spare set.
(https://i.ibb.co/85DWGNQ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/85DWGNQ)
Side by side, the difference between stock and modified is easy to see. Now the two rear corners of the top plate easily clear the tank buck with steering at full lock.
(https://i.ibb.co/7XdX0wW/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7XdX0wW)
This top plate was painted black on the Record bikes, as this one will be,
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After the modified top plate/ triple tree was in place, I began working on the tank. Using pics of the unfaired bikes plus this image from the MG Museum of the existing original Record Bike with full fairing, I began-
(https://i.ibb.co/mcTKxqx/Tonti-Guzzi1969-LVwithfairing-MGMuseum-IMG-5120lrcrop1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mcTKxqx)
At some point, I do plan to make a full fairing assembly like this one. For now, that part of the project can wait.
Initially, a 2D chipboard cut-out was made from a beer case box for the seat to go with a simple plywood mock-up.
(https://i.ibb.co/Ryf6zTp/V700-Corsa-Tank-Seat-Mockup-IMG-5275.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ryf6zTp)
forum image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
Then I began wedging plastilina (non-hardening microcrystalline clay) onto a wooden armature to further develop the tank and seat in 3D. Many will scan and use computer technology as a priority. I like doing it myself. this is also how all my studio models are produced.
(https://i.ibb.co/fNT68Z1/V700-Corsa-initialclaytankseatmockup11252018-IMG-5749.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fNT68Z1)
Working alone in studio can complicate one's ability to maintain perspective. Without someone else's input for a sounding board, I've found it helps to have divergent projects working at the same time. Time away from one helps clarify the other. Over the winter and spring, the clay for tank and seat took shape very well.
(https://i.ibb.co/wsjBf6Y/DSC-2705.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wsjBf6Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/YjCb61W/DSC-2703.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YjCb61W)
Finally, I decided tank and seat clay models to be finished and it was time to begin work on fabricating the wooden bucks-
(https://i.ibb.co/Pxm3Ydf/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Pxm3Ydf)
More soon...
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This is such a cool project! You are taking this Guzzisti thing to an extreme!
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This is such a cool project! You are taking this Guzzisti thing to an extreme!
Dave, It looks like you have both a V700 and an Eldo. Maybe you would be willing to look at your bikes for me? I need help.
The original Record bikes were operated with no side or center stand. When parked, some pics show the later curved Ambo-Eldo center stand in place, which does look more graceful than the V700 centerstand. Can you look and tell me if the bumper or stand stop on frame for both the V700 center stand and later Ambo-Eldo stand is similar, identical, very different, same place, ??
When I cut the passenger peg frame loops to modify the frame for the rear sets, the OEM center stand bumper location will be lost. I need to start planning how to resolve that. I have to make and install the rearsets before I can do any significant work to make the exhaust.
If I just leave the sidestand in place as a workaround, that will interfere with an original-style full fairing that I plan to produce in the future....
Maybe you or someone else can help me with this information?
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I checked both frames and the center stand bumper is located in the same place for both.
This is the V700
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGjjb8d/IMG-5190-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcDW8kQx)
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I checked both frames and the center stand bumper is located in the same place for both.
This is the V700
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdGjjb8d/IMG-5190-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcDW8kQx)
Thanks, Dave. I thought they were the same and wanted confirmation. I'll keep figuring it out.
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Fabricating the bucks for rear fender, seat and tank.
These bucks are more complicated than the few I've made in the past. Producing properly places, well-cut & tight fitting joints while using my bandsaw was a priority. I used furniture-grade 3/4" Maple faced plywood. These three bucks required less than 1 full sheet of plywood, including a few pieces that needed to be cut again. No glue or filler was used. Hands handling metal get dirty and smudge the wood, so I apply whatever I have available for polyurethane to the bucks after completion before metal shaping begins. This keep the bucks cleaner during use and they look better later, especially as the poly yellows and honeys as time passes.
1. Rear Fender Buck-
This is the least complicated buck of the three. It did require the most fitted joints to be cut. Good practice.
Some pics show a short rear fender eliminator. Some don't. It even appears and disappears from the full fairing Record bike in the MG Museum, depending upon when pictures are taken. It doesn't seem to be a cut-down OEM rear fender.
I estimated the general shape by taking a radius from the axle, at rest, to the fender mount on battery tray and another radius from the axle to the rear frame fender mount. then I merged these two on paper by eyeballing where the transition looked appropriate.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0xxkSJ/IMG-4253.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y0xxkSJ)
This pattern was transferred to plywood, sawed and sanded on the large belt sander. A decision was made about the number of stations to be produced. Placement for eight stations was laid out on the blank-
(https://i.ibb.co/0MVbLMy/IMG-4263.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0MVbLMy)
The cross section radius of the fender was copied from the battery tray and frame fender mounts. This was used to develop the pattern for the eight buck stations. These were cut out on the bandsaw. Then these were ganged together with screws so they could be sanded together to closely match. At first I sanded 4 ganged together at a time.
(https://i.ibb.co/4V55DFS/IMG-4264.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4V55DFS)
(https://i.ibb.co/Zd87Dk2/IMG-4265.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zd87Dk2)
After the stations were close, I began laying out sawing parameters for fitment on both the main armature and the individual stations. Practice is important to know how your bandsaw will cut, drift, the side of the line to watch and kerf as well as what will break blades, etc. Sharp blades drift less and break less (because they require less tension) than less happy blades. It's simple to braze a broken blade back together if it's still good & sharp. Doing that is not an inconvenience- it is another chance practice to make nice viable joints in metal.
I made a simple transfer gauge from a piece of scrap-
(https://i.ibb.co/stHvkg5/IMG-4267.jpg) (https://ibb.co/stHvkg5)
(https://i.ibb.co/82PhgfF/IMG-4266.jpg) (https://ibb.co/82PhgfF)
Then I set up the two stacks of stations to lay out the cutting lines. The transfer gauge was clamped in the benchmate, the stacks were centered and aligned and marked for cutting.
(https://i.ibb.co/bK2KHSf/IMG-4271.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bK2KHSf)
(https://i.ibb.co/R7V3kCc/IMG-4269.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R7V3kCc)
After marking the tops, the transfer gauge was removed from the benchmate and the cut line was transferred along the adjacent sides.
(https://i.ibb.co/MVtCwdV/IMG-4272.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MVtCwdV)
Then to the bandsaw to SLOWLY cut along these lines. Going slow helps limit blade drift between top & bottom and subsequent crooked cuts....
(https://i.ibb.co/KF1mTK8/IMG-4273.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KF1mTK8)
After sawing, alignment and quality of cut for a tight fit can be checked by fitting over a piece of the same plywood. All was good, so none had to be recut- very cool. The two stacks are ganged together, face to face as the cuts were laid out, and trued all together on the belt sander.
(https://i.ibb.co/BBXFDJy/IMG-4274.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BBXFDJy)
I did tune the sawed slot while they were ganged together with an improvise sanding board. Worked slow but helped make great joints.
(https://i.ibb.co/qRdPGyc/IMG-4276.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qRdPGyc)
(https://i.ibb.co/NVC3XNC/IMG-4275.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NVC3XNC)
You probably notice a couple of the stations are missing corners. That comes from being cheap (Guzzi content) and using scrap from the previous buck....
Then it was a simple task to use the same transfer gauge and the slotted stations to lay out cut lines on the main armature, go to the band saw and keep moving forward-
(https://i.ibb.co/W2HtX3t/IMG-4277.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W2HtX3t)
I did decide to relieve the edges of all the stations for a stringer along each side. Then put it together and tuned it up a little on the belt sander. Since it all fit well, it didn't need much..
(https://i.ibb.co/RDGVGfT/IMG-4278.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RDGVGfT)
I decided to remove a portion of each side stringer so it would be easy to install the buck in a vise while I was using it to save workbench space. The only assembly hardware used were the shown screws. No glue and nearly all was a press-tight fit.
(https://i.ibb.co/VHbXhZ5/IMG-4280.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VHbXhZ5)
(https://i.ibb.co/2n77Svz/IMG-4279.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2n77Svz)
Add some polyurethane, let dry, sand lightly, tack, repeat as couple of times and it looks like store bought. very cool.
(https://i.ibb.co/vHCRDrn/IMG-4282.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vHCRDrn)
On to the next one..
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Seat and Tank Bucks-
The seat buck was more complicated than the tank buck, so it came next. The seat buck and tank buck building process were similar to each other. I thought I had taken more pics of the seat buck in process, but apparently not so there's not much to show. It combined similar joinery of the fender buck with a less repetitive composition. Individual station patterns were developed using posterboard patterns taken directly from the clay. This was done the same way as will be shown for the tank buck. read on..
A few pics of the seat buck-
In process-
(https://i.ibb.co/w7JXqjt/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w7JXqjt)
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Finished, less polyurethane
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The tank posed different challenges. The tunnel is a more determinant and complicated shape to produce. Too many bike projects I've studied have tunnels that are only an afterthought not well conceived imho. the pretty outside is produced and whatever will fit is hidden underneath. Not cool. If you've had a variety of cool Italian tanks, you understand that some thought went into the various cut-outs and clearance bulges that differentiate certain tanks. So I began with the tunnel considerations to incorporate the tunnel shape into the buck.
the original Record bikes apparently used a simple bungee cord, at least on the rear, to hold the tank in place. I'll probably not do that. I do need to clear the distributor cap, ignition coil and generator (planned to be changed to alternator). As mentioned, I've always favored the black urethane tank mounting bushing like used on my V7 Sport over the typical foam & electrical tape or water pipe insulation....
Problem was that the V7 Sport bushings won't begin to fit around the larger top frame tube of a Loop frame. I searched at length for a suitable off-the-shelf item, like a sway bar bushing, but found nothing of adequate size. So I started making them. As an experiment, I sacrificed my only hockey puck. I made a fixture to hold it, offset cut/sawed the center with a hole saw in the drill press, used the belt sander to shape it and a 1/4" wheel on a bench grinder to cut the slot around the circumference. It was too hard (around 90 durometer) and too small in both diameter and thickness, but it looked like I could do it. I sourced enough black urethane spring die stock from a local craigslist seller and made what I needed.
(https://i.ibb.co/rkyLFhw/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rkyLFhw)
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I also made two 1/2" thick bumpers to match the tank bushings. I'll mount these to help keep the tank vertical-
(https://i.ibb.co/9c74wH3/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9c74wH3)
Image showing hockey puck experimental bushing (top) usable finished urethane bushing (left) blank for second urethane bushing (center) and spring die stock (right)-
(https://i.ibb.co/RbZrtMM/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RbZrtMM)
Bushings on the frame-
(https://i.ibb.co/5r05fJ0/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5r05fJ0)
Along with bike details like the distributor and coil, these tank bushings helped develop the pattern for the tunnel as the buck was produced. I started by standing a spare moped crate over the bike to use as a basic measuring reference. Since the clay tank model was only a half of the tank with a flat plywood backside, it was relatively simple to trace a pattern of the uppermost profile of the tank clay. Then the clay was removed, the top tube was traced onto the pattern with a 1/2" allowance for the newly-made tank mounting bushings. Now I had the basic backbone armature pattern for my tank buck.
(https://i.ibb.co/jZVM3Cq/IMG-4283.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jZVM3Cq)
(https://i.ibb.co/xXPQrWp/IMG-4284.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xXPQrWp)
I had previously decided to make two of these in order to construct the buck in identical halves. the joint between them will be the centerline along the top of the frame. These pieces were marked and cut from the same 3/4" maple plywood. The were temporarily attached to each other with with screws and dressed to match on the belt sander.
As with the fender and seat, the number of equally-spaced buck stations was determined and laid out on the two plywood pieces. Joinery for this buck was more complicated. Proportionally deep notches or dadoes in this backbone would weaken the buck. It would be even worse if the buck was not produced in halves. Instead of complicated joinery, measurements were determined & the table saw fence was set to saw several strips of plywood. Smaller pieces of these strips were cut to length and screwed to each side of the backbone halves. A piece of plywood was placed between them and a transfer guage was used to keep everything in alignment. The small overage used to help index their placement was then removed, as were the through screws as this progressed. Before the through screws were removed, the entire assembly was progressively drilled to receive more substantial bolts and t-nuts. Now I could later separate the halves as needed. this all provides a simple means to produce a well-developed and robust buck. Very cool.
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Tank backbone halves, fully assembled-
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Now it was time to pull patterns from the clay tank model. There are many ways people capture and transfer such information. I do it regularly in studio. For this, it was especially simple because I had prepared properly.
Nearly all measurement work in granite is referenced from the bottom or joint of the stone. Since this tank is flat on the bottom I installed a properly leveled flat platform barely touching the tank and extending beyond the bottom.
(https://i.ibb.co/gRwvyNK/IMG-4286.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gRwvyNK)
The station locations were transferred from the armature backbone (placed on top of the frame with bushings) onto the joint platform
(https://i.ibb.co/Z13wmQD/IMG-4289.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z13wmQD)
These locations were marked with 3/4" wide blue tape.
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The station information was then transferred onto the clay tank buck. marking them directly into the clay.
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Because I had intentionally used the "wrong" clay (too soft for typical vehicle design work) the rest was simple. I cut poster board blanks with a pair of perpendicular edges, representing the vertical center line at top and horizontal bottom, successively approximated the general shape to remove for each face of a specific buck station until it was very close and the bury the poster board into the clay so I could directly trace the shape of the clay onto the poster board.
(https://i.ibb.co/LnHjwxv/IMG-4308.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LnHjwxv)
By cutting the smaller side first, the larger face could then be quickly trimmed to approx dimension to be fine tuned into shape. Before long, I had a full set of poster board patterns for each station which could be used in reverse to produce the partnering station for the opposite side of the tank. The basic station blanks were placed before being marked to saw and roughly sand into shape.
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(https://i.ibb.co/vw2ck1F/IMG-4291.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vw2ck1F)
I was able to similarly trace end patterns for the tank. This allowed me to make a pair of end stations to properly locate the tank front to back.
(https://i.ibb.co/C2vQ3RT/IMG-4293.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C2vQ3RT)
When the individual stations were produced, 3/4" was removed from both the perpendicular edges to allow for the backbone plywood element and the bottom. the general bottom exterior shape was traced from the clay, while the interior edge was developed to allow clearance for the 1/2" tank bushings and the various engine-related concerns. This was not photographed. while wrapping up the bottoms, I was rushing to have the general bucks ready for a show display.
(https://i.ibb.co/pzBpfXC/IMG-4304.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pzBpfXC)
No matter, when tank & seat bucks were on the bike, it was looking good even if it was still kinda square.
(https://i.ibb.co/XJbH7DW/IMG-4296.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XJbH7DW)
(https://i.ibb.co/0Q6Gq9H/IMG-4295.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Q6Gq9H)
and finally, I had time to move things along from boxy to curvy...
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These bucks look even better when they're on the bike-
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I still have some work to do fairing the stations on the tank buck and resolving the front corners. So far only a few bolts with Tee nuts and visible screws between stations and through bottoms into stations have been used. It is very solid. I will separate the halves and add screws to the stations through the respective backbone. I have started adding spacers between the stations along the bottom to further strengthen the assembly. Then all will be faired and sealed with polyurethane.
The fender and seat are both shaped in metal and awaiting trimming & welding. The next several weeks are completely full with studio work so I doubt there will be much Guzzi progress for a while. Getting the pics out of bondage to get this posted over this weekend has been great. For those interested, there will be more to come...
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Mixed-media project, loving it! I'll be tuned-in. Thanks for making this thread!
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There isn't a lot to post about making the rear fender, at least right now. With a completed buck, simple dimensions and plans to make it longer & wider than needed so it could be trimmed to size later, there wasn't much need for a paper pattern. I took it to a recent annual metal shaping event, called the Redneck Roundup, as a casual project. All of these pics are a couple of weeks old.
Of the various items to be made, the rear fender needed to be produced first. I cut out a blank from some scrap .063 thick aluminum that I got for free (Guzzi content) from an old motorcycle friend years ago. It's been here waiting for just such a use. The blank was fairly long, covering the full length of the buck and approx 4" wider than the final dimension. The only pic I have of the early stages is this one, after the blank was briefly worked with an arbor press. Puckers are visible along the edge, which will be employed to shrink the edges and develop the shape. I'm on left (apparently taking a nap...), Imperial Wheeling Machine owner Pat Brubaker is at center holding the fender blank and Bill Tromblay is on right, just out of frame. some of PatMan's arbor press tooling in the foreground was being used at this point.
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The rest of the RR was a blur.... Seminars, Bugattis, great food & even better friends, .. No more fender pics. I had time for more shaping on the fender. By the time I left, I had a well-developed semicircle of lumpy metal that approximated the buck.
When I got home to my less-complicated shop, I spent a little time on the stump further shrinking the edges & on the English wheel smoothing things out. it progressed very quickly. As the shape was resolved, I trimmed the edges that suffered the most attention during shrinking to remove unhappy metal.
(https://i.ibb.co/hdyQxtq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hdyQxtq)
After that, I began turning a false wire edge along each side. This will both help stiffen/strengthen the fender and give it a more professional appearance. I marked the layout for the wire edge by gently using a slapper along the buck stations. Then I began turning the edge in slow increments along the entire edge of each side using a slapper & sharp dolly plus a hammer when things got tight.
(https://i.ibb.co/3WjJGKX/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3WjJGKX)
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As the edge is turned and begins to close, I used a length of gas welding rod as a mandrel to help create the false (hollow) wire edge. Some modify a set of pliers, especially on the portion that contact the outer edge to limit scarring of the metal. I simply use a pad, made froma scrap of the same parent metal as the job, to cover the potentially offending teeth while leaving the other teeth exposed for better grip. In general, like doesn't scratch like so there is no marring or damage. Very cheap, very effective.
(https://i.ibb.co/QcHpgQm/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QcHpgQm)
The pliers are used to close the false wire edge as tightly as possible while the wire can still be removed. After the wire is removed, it's tightened up a little more. I do plan to use a pair of pliers with longer handles & better leverage in the future. (Edit- this pic is was taken before the edge was fully closed or crimped with pliers..) These did an adequate job for a first run on scrap metal.
(https://i.ibb.co/stqVNsn/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/stqVNsn)
After all shaping was done and both sides were rolled with a false wire edge, the fender fits the buck pretty well.
(https://i.ibb.co/B2N60dY/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B2N60dY)
It still needs to be significantly trimmed to length once decisions are made about fender-seat-taillight arrangement.
Seat progress pics are next.
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Building the seat is more of a challenge, both with shaping the pieces and welding them together. I like to weld. Doesn't mean I'm great at it yet, especially gas welding thin aluminum.. the seat, just like the fender, were made from scrap I had for this first run. There's a lot of fitting to be done to develop the overall seat-fender-taillight assembly. The way I approached it was to make these parts, do what needs to be done to make them all work together and then remake them if necessary.
Not interested in CAD. I would rather make & remake parts including all welding to become better at craft than typing, For reference, this is the vast majority of my metal shaping gear- A HandBuilt cast iron English wheel by Peter Tommasini, a stump, a shot bag and a Beverly Shear plus assortment of hammers, dollies & a few other simple hand tools. I have a TIG but prefer to gas weld whenever feasible
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Making the seat-
First, I used the seat buck to develop a paper pattern for the front portion of the seat.
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The blank was marked, cut and bent.
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I produced a false wire edge along the lower edges of the seat as well to help stiffen and strengthen it. The sidewall height of the seat is a concern, depending upon the mounting arrangement. This seat is longer than the original, with additional length added to front in area where I shortened the tank approx 4 inches. The top tube of the frame had little interaction with the seat on the original Record bikes. I may notch the front of the seat more for better frame/seat agreement or may need to do another seat pan later. We'll see. For now, the false wire edge-
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I made paper pattern of one half of the seat hump. Folds denote areas where shrinking needs to occur and the amount of shrinking necessary can be mitigated by creating nearby areas with adequate stretch. When shaped, the two halves will be welded along the center line and then welded to the seat pan. After a pattern was in hand, both blanks were marked and cut. an ample allowance was produces around the edges, especially along the bottom where shrinking would be done. It makes shrinking a little more difficult, but will be easier to trim & clean up any defects created during the work.
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First, I created some form in the metal by bending it to fit the buck along the center line. My plan was to not shrink this edge of the metal. since I planned to weld here, this would make a more more consistent area of metal thickness to help me produce a better weld.
(https://i.ibb.co/XSZGFdx/IMG-4367.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XSZGFdx)
Shrinking on the stump is done by striking the metal near the edge with a hammer over a hollow area of the stump. This raises a wrinkle or tuck along the edge, which is then hammered flat to trap & compress the metal. This shortened area causes neighboring metal to transition from flat to curved. If this curved area is them stretched by striking it with a hammer over a soft base like a shot bag, the curve is enhanced. By doing both processes in unison as needed, complex shape can be developed very quickly in aluminum.
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After initial shaping and shrinking, the lumpy metal is rolled between the upper wheel and lower anvil of an English Wheel to smooth the surface. Additional pressure will cause additional stretching. simple contact without additional pressure (adjustment between upper & lower anvil is approx the thickness of the metal) will simply smooth out the rough surface.
(https://i.ibb.co/8r0QY3j/IMG-4374.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8r0QY3j)
(https://i.ibb.co/y0s8Wcw/IMG-4375.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y0s8Wcw)
Then, repeat until finished. Keep checking the development of form (simple bending) and shape (complex curves created by stretching and/or shrinking) by fitting the piece against the buck. Many times a piece may be shaped "incorrectly"- according to the fit on the buck- on purpose so it can be manipulated into the proper shape by another process. A good example is shrinking the sides of a motorcycle fender-shaped piece too much so that the radius is too tight. The piece is then pulled apart by the ends. this will simultaneously cause the radius to open up or increase as the sides drop down (deeper cross sectional curve) There was a lot of this done with the seat hump.
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The first 95% happens pretty quickly. The next 4%, a little slower. The final 1% it the hard part. That's why it helps to understand how working the metal in a manner that isn't obvious will often produce the result you seek. When it actually fits the buck, it's very cool. After it fit, I turned a flange on the front of the hump half. I ended up not retaining this flange for welding as initially planned, but it was useful.
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Then you do the other half and have two pieces to fit against each other, then trim in preparation for welding-
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More to come..
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This kind of work always amazes me !! Thanks so much for sharing all of this with us...most entertaining !!
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Making the seat hump in two pieces is a chance to practice both making parts to match and then welding shapes, as I work towards building the tank. Making the hump in one piece is easier (making it from the back end of an old gas tank and pop-riveting it onto an original seat pan is faster & even easier....). It doesn't matter- I need the practice. These parts aren't perfect, but they're close enough for this exercise. I had concerns about the hump-taillight agreement, so erred on the side of bigger instead of smaller.
After parts were trimmed, they were gas welded together. Since the metal grew some, the original .063 edge that hadn't been worked was trimmed away so it was more like .050 thick. There were some nice short segments, along with a few holes that were welded up. Then the high spots were removed with a vixen file.
(https://i.ibb.co/wC7jwFJ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wC7jwFJ)
I had turned a flange on the front of the two halves, with tentative plans to better finish, slightly trim and produce a butt weld between flange & the similarly trimmed seat pan. I had a better fit to the buck & flange by trimming this flange away, so I did and produced a corner weld instead. Another ok weld, not perfect but good practice.
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Now I had a seat in one piece. More ok welds. Not perfect & some repairs needed, but it's very serviceable. Still need to trim the lower rear portion and continue the false wire edge along the hump portion. A test fit on the bike goes well. The fender and seat agree very well.
(https://i.ibb.co/0qHrH3q/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0qHrH3q)
From this view, it's easy to see the hump is taller & more round than the original seat. A detail I'm trying to create is part of the reason it's taller. The original Record bikes used a seat that was likely fiberglass & simply off the shelf, not custom made for the bikes. The period pictures show the seat is pulled in or compressed by the rear attachment screws. This deforms the smooth round shape of the hump and creates a slight shoulder and concave area on the sides. I didn't think I could make a definitive shape and have it look this natural & incidental.
Instead, I made a little extra height on top and planned to move it to make more of a shoulder. Using a slapper (bent file with teeth on striking face removed & highly polished) a couple of hammers and dollies, I slowly worked down the crown while working the shoulder areas outward to tighten up the lowered crown. Don't stretch the metal. I just moved or rearranged the length & shale that was already there. This worked very well.
When all looked good, I made a paper pattern from the buck to guide trimming of the lower area of hump.
(https://i.ibb.co/s5b0v9c/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s5b0v9c)
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Then I marked the aluminum, trimmed and filed as needed and continued turning the false wire edge along the hump portion.
(https://i.ibb.co/kq54Wgy/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kq54Wgy)
It came out well, nice flow.
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The hump is much shorter than when originally welded and is much closer to the profile of the buck.
(https://i.ibb.co/NKm4ZFh/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NKm4ZFh)
I haven't done both sides yet, as I still need to fix a welding flaw on the other side before trimming and rolling the edge.
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But for now, things are ok enough to offset the seat on the frame for test fitting against the fender. The fender was made to fit the buck and it fits great. But it doesn't fit the bike properly. It wouldn't reach both factory spender mounts on frame & battery tray. The problem apparently lies with how I merged the two radii and the decreased clearance above the frame with this seat pan vs a stock Loop frame seat pan. The trailing edge of the fender was too close to the tire, as is. I didn't want the tire to grab the fender. btdt, not cool..
So, I did what I described earlier. I pulled on the ends of the fender to slightly open up the radius. It worked great and was not enough change to significantly impact the cross section radius of the fender.. Now the fender fit both factory mounting points. Better yet, it clears the seat by approx 1/"4 with potential to make it fit closer. And it looks great.
(https://i.ibb.co/CbTxL9d/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CbTxL9d)
A few more shots, one with the fender alone and one with fender and seat. obviously with the seat offset because only one side has been finished but still a good demonstration of where things are going.
(https://i.ibb.co/kS6JNLc/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kS6JNLc)
(https://i.ibb.co/QMyWB6C/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QMyWB6C)
Meanwhile, I also mocked up the CEV taillight. I'm trying to develop details that are not Record original details to be as balanced as I can. The seat and light is a good example. The opening for the taillight should be just under 5". When viewed from the rear at eye level, the seat hump is approx 1 1/2" wide to,the right and left of the light opening. So there's approx 3" of seat hump visible vs a tall it that just over 4 3/4" wide. The golden ratio is just over 1.6:1, but using a factor of 1.6 is a quick way to check balance between two details. 3" X 1.6 = 4.8". Very cool. Once all is properly finished,trimmed, edge rolled, rear cut away and fitted at center, it should look great.
(https://i.ibb.co/Jmksvrx/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jmksvrx)
The extra height of the hump should also help marry the seat and light. The original Record seat hump was fairly small. Cutting the end away for the light or hanging the light on the back was not what I wanted to do. Slightly enlarging the hump made more sense.
As the taillight and license plate fitment is resolved, the rear fender will be shortened. Probably will start by trimming it just longer than the license plate and turning a slight lip or bead on the fender. I also need to work the front of the seat to better fit with the frame top tube & along the other tangent frame rails. The gap is unsightly, but also concerned about bending the seat pan. Mounting arrangement needs address, so this will all be done together.
(https://i.ibb.co/NpZWZNK/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NpZWZNK)
With all the concerns to address resolving fitment of seat-frame-taillight-frame, this seat may ultimately serve to be the pattern for the next seat. For now, it's good to have it in hand to use..
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:thumb: :popcorn:
Very good progress, aluminium welding is not easy. I have only done it with TIG, I could imagine that it is difficult managing the heat with a torch.
Keep the updates coming! It is going to be a great looking bike!
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:thumb: :popcorn:
Very good progress, aluminium welding is not easy. I have only done it with TIG, I could imagine that it is difficult managing the heat with a torch.
Keep the updates coming! It is going to be a great looking bike!
Thanks, Rick. Gas welding aluminum is a real challenge & skill set that I want to secure. Lots to learn.
I've got a nice TIG, but it isn't how I want to do it. The quiet of the simple gear does a lot for me. I have enough noise in studio doing stone. Loud pneumatics & hammers and a buzzing, whining TIG isn't what I want when I have time to do metal if it can be avoided. Doing it similar to how the original Record bikes were built is important as well. Maybe they used TIG but probably not.
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Fascinating stuff! I'd love to do something like this.
Evan Wilcox who's famous for custom gas tanks and his aluminum work, I've been told uses Hydrogen to weld aluminum with the gas welder. He prefers that to tig as well.
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I've known about Evan and followed his work to some extent since the 90's. He was one of the first really visible USA-based men doing sport bike & cafe-oriented stuff while the OCC/WCC chopper stuff was in the spotlight.
Welding with oxy-hydrogen employs a flame that is completely invisible, which is one less distraction. I am set up with acetylene because I build/rebuild all of my carbide chisels for stone work- lots of brazing with some heat treating & basic forging work.
Adding a tank or two of hydrogen would be great, but is another $$$ so not right now. Still need to buy more Guzzi parts first....
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David Gardiner who made the bodywork restoration DVD that I have also swears by oxy/acetylene. I would like to try with it, but the lack of a oxy/acetylene setup makes it a bit difficult :)
David also swears for oxy/ac when welding steel. I think it was because it makes a less brittle heat affected zone after welding. Should make it easier to form afterwards.
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Proper Oxy-Act welds are fully equitable to the parent metal, very malleable and less prone to cracking. Pretty hard to believe how much abuse a gas weld will withstand. The heat affected zone is larger, but that can be managed. Usually the only time I won't gas weld something is when it has too much mass. You'll use up a lot of gas or time or both preheating the whole thing in order to produce the needed penetration. TIG is less brittle than Stick or MIG, but still not soft like a gas weld.
If you're wheeling a weld, running it through a bead roller, power planishing or whatever, gas welds are less likely to cause damage to your equipment. Gas welds are usually the least likely to crack. If you're thorough, you can gas weld up a big hump of aluminum and then hammer/plan is hit down to a desired thickness. It will be just as durable as a regular coupon of comparable sheet aluminum.
To me, having a basic gas welding rig is as mandatory as having a vise or grinder or drill press in a shop. Nothing else is as versatile. Electric welders are great for fast work, but they have more limits. You can weld thick material with gas when needed. It just uses up a lot of fuel. It isn't hard to gas weld. It just takes practice.
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As the taillight and license plate fitment is resolved, the rear fender will be shortened. Probably will start by trimming it just longer than the license plate and turning a slight lip or bead on the fender. I also need to work the front of the seat to better fit with the frame top tube & along the other tangent frame rails. The gap is unsightly, but also concerned about bending the seat pan. Mounting arrangement needs address, so this will all be done together.
(https://i.ibb.co/NpZWZNK/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NpZWZNK)
With all the concerns to address resolving fitment of seat-frame-taillight-frame, this seat may ultimately serve to be the pattern for the next seat. For now, it's good to have it in hand to use..
I know your trying to copy a older bike, and Im really not sure of the details of that bike, but adding a small triangle filler to that front edge would look good. Doesn't have to fill the space, just a little bit of filler to sweep a little curve down to let the eye fill in the space a little and connect.. Great work!! I loe tin work, but have little or none in the skill department.
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I know your trying to copy a older bike, and Im really not sure of the details of that bike, but adding a small triangle filler to that front edge would look good. Doesn't have to fill the space, just a little bit of filler to sweep a little curve down to let the eye fill in the space a little and connect.. Great work!! I loe tin work, but have little or none in the skill department.
Thanks, Paul. Input like yours helps. Working alone doesn't always help with perspective. The positive comments from everyone are much appreciated as well.
Since those pics, I have deepened the relief/indent across the front. That is closing the wedge gap between the rear portion of the seat and frame near the blue tape. I'll probably deepen it some more. Hopefully more it rests on the frame, the less likely it will be to bend. This is also kicking up the rear of the seat to benefit license plate mount & tire clearance, which is very cool. I'm not averse to making a new seat if needed after all the issues are sorted with this one. We'll see.
A quick pic of the taillight in the trimmed seat. Not mounted yet beyond duct tape and I'm playing with mounting depth. I want the CEV stamp and part numbers on the chromed trim to be visible & not hidden, but not wanting a surface mount look. I need to develop the lamp assembly to replace the original one using two little 6v barrel or bullet-ended bulbs. I'm looking at similar dimensioned off-the-shelf lamps that could be easily modified, bulb orientation and mounting configuration within the seat.
(https://i.ibb.co/G2X2860/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G2X2860)
Just because I like the older square-style license plate holder doesn't mean it fits particularly well. For now, I used a spare CEV assembly (probably from a Sprint) as a pattern. An oversized blank for the license plate holder was cut from the same scrap aluminum, with additional material welded to accommodate the lamp area. The center will be trimmed away to allow a deeper lamp with regular 1157 bulb or LED equivalent.
(https://i.ibb.co/fFkXXXS/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fFkXXXS)
(https://i.ibb.co/C27JtJ2/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C27JtJ2)
(https://i.ibb.co/SRYp2Ch/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SRYp2Ch)
Still have a long way to go with my welding. I should be practicing on larger coupons, with all known materials, probably have more tip sizes,.. Still, I'm trying to develop an ability to work on a real part when it matters. I've done the same with my studio tools. Doesn't matter if I can make nice samples. If they don't work and cannot be trusted when it counts, they're junk and I can be in deep trouble. In the very near future, I'll have to weld mounts into the seat hump and would prefer not to burn giant holes or have to make a large repair section... Gotta be able to do it right the first time.
Making the license plate holder with a fender mount that is strong enough may require a different configuration than this design, no matter what I add for beading and edge detail. I know where these types of taillight/plate mounts typically flex and break, especially on singles. There will be more room & things will change when I cut away the rear frame loop (diagonally, at the blue tape), but I don't plan to cut the frame until the seat-fender-taillight detail is 100% resolved. Losing that factory rear fender mount as a reference point will be significant.
Time is short for this bike fun for the near future. I have a couple of events to do, a stone to finish and trying to get a wheeled dolly fabricated for my Gairu (Pullmax-style reciprocating machine) so that can be moved into my shop asap. I would like to have the current taillight & related shaping stuff sorted by Nov 1 and will post what I can along the way.
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Lately there's been no bike time, but made a little progress this afternoon. The bike has been here on the carport for a couple of weeks while I needed space for another project in my metal shop. The tank buck has been irritating me. Tried to get a good match of shape from various pics & the clay, decided it was good enough and then slammed it out to get it together for display at our late July bike rally. It still didn't look right but I chalked that up to removing approx 4" from the rear of the tank. Didn't like the tank-distributor interaction either.
So this afternoon I found the sans-fairing right side view picture I needed and studied it a little more. Then I laid a straightedge along the bottom of the tank and pulled a string to match the location on the bike. The problem I had was that I had developed the tank clay & buck as orderly, specifically with the flat bottom of the tank being parallel to the lower frame rail. When the clay was shorter top to bottom, it didn't look right. When I fattened it up and made the wooden buck, it looked better but still not right. Finally realized the original basic utilitarian tank was not made & installed with a bottom parallel to lower frame rail. This was likely deliberate to help fuel carry towards the rear of the tank & nearer the petcocks
The string clarified that I had the rear of the tank spot on correct and the bottom was flat. But the front needed approx 1 1/2" inches removed from the bottom. A little time on the bandsaw and big sander and it's looking much better.
Side view of revised tank buck with string in place between top of rear shock and exposed fork spring-
(https://i.ibb.co/R701s9h/image.jpg[/imp][/url]<br />
<br />[url=https://ibb.co/Q9Snbz2][img]https://i.ibb.co/Q9Snbz2/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R701s9h)
I may replace some of the stations on the buck as I fair it, but happier with the overall shape and fit now. It's also easier to see the engine, which is always very cool...
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Two of my favorite new pictures, taken about an hour ago. Trying to make two shows this weekend and finally made some progress. Details will follow soon....
(https://i.ibb.co/YNDz80R/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YNDz80R)
(https://i.ibb.co/Nnq8n7T/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Nnq8n7T)
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Most impressive clifffrod...! Wow..! :popcorn:
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At this point, I've decided I will be making a new seat and rear fender after using the ones in hand for all fitment and experimentation. My welding is improving and there's no reason to try to make these pieces perfect. It will be faster to make good ones and hang these up as souvenirs.
Saying I've wanted to build a bike around one of these CEV taillights for years isn't far from the truth. Among others, these lights came on Ducati 175 & 200 Elite models in the late 50's and very early 60's. imho, it's a perfect fit to incoprporate into a typical cafe racer seat. I had already trimmed off the back of my first seat, so now it was time to weld in a basic mounting platform.
This lamp assembly uses two ancient 6v bullet-ended bulbs. I'm still sorting out the details about the lamp upgrade. Saw some similar sized LED bullet ended builds that might work or may just use a regular or LED 1157. Until I get all in place with fender, I'm waiting on developing the lamp interior.
So I made a pattern to fit the hump, turned a simple flange to facilitate welding and welded it in place. Only blew one hole this time and then quickly fixed it.
(https://i.ibb.co/yNvZxYV/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yNvZxYV)
(https://i.ibb.co/ctmpFgV/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ctmpFgV)
Looks ok on the bike. Should be able to center the next one even better.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZT38VQR/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZT38VQR)
After the taillight was mounted, I started working on mounting and initial trimming of the rear fender. After studying enough pics, I understood the front mount was a pair of small L brackets that rivet to the fender. Before making them, I added a lateral bead across the leading end to both clear the frame cross member below the battery tray and to stiffen the fender. Not sure that it's necessary to have the fender this long, but it's easier to cut it off later than to add it...
(https://i.ibb.co/m8XFXnw/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m8XFXnw)
After bead was added (with simple hammer & stump/dolly work), the fender was marked and trimmed to length.
(https://i.ibb.co/9hVLQBs/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9hVLQBs)
(https://i.ibb.co/9Hj0yMG/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Hj0yMG)
The L brackets were pretty simple to make from 16g crs. After a pair were bent, I had to mark & drill holes to attach these via the two bolts at the rear of the battery tray.
(https://i.ibb.co/j3dmYR2/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j3dmYR2)
(https://i.ibb.co/56W6dKY/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/56W6dKY)
Transferring holes can be done with a cross made from two pieces of tape. At the intersection, the sticky sides face each other. Use one layer of tape to tape it to the piece with the hole. Mark the hole as you like. Place the part to receive the pattern in place. Use the other sticky face to attach the pattern to the receiving part & remove the tape from the original part. Make your hole.
(https://i.ibb.co/VQhPXXX/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VQhPXXX)
(https://i.ibb.co/0sdLKn7/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0sdLKn7)
After that, I marked holes for the fender rivets before drilling the bracket & then the fender. For now, I'll use small bolts instead of rivets. Not sure if I'll make new brackets for the new fender.later or reuse these.
(https://i.ibb.co/sytNq7M/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sytNq7M)
With the front mounts done, I moved to the rear of the fender. Before trimming it to initial length, I wanted to add a narrow bead across the end. This will stiffen the fender and is similar to the bead found on the trailing edge of a V7 Sport fender. For this one, I simply freehand end a bead with a cross pein hammer using another cross pein hammer held in the vise as a dolly. It isn't perfect, but wasn't meant to be. It was fast & easy and looks good.
(https://i.ibb.co/JFDHxPG/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JFDHxPG)
(https://i.ibb.co/r6LbBGz/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r6LbBGz)
After the bead was done, I marked the fender and trimmed it to length. I thought it looked good but Tip wasn't impressed.
(https://i.ibb.co/HKZwtfv/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HKZwtfv)
Test mounting the fender and seat on bike looked good, even with the frame loop intact.
(https://i.ibb.co/1b1JVVv/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1b1JVVv)
(https://i.ibb.co/qRm6wDy/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qRm6wDy)
I left the fender slightly longer than the height of a handy license plate. The angle isn't very vertical, but should be manageable. Cannot really deal with this until the frame is cut because the frame is in the way.
(https://i.ibb.co/tqD1Px4/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tqD1Px4)
(https://i.ibb.co/BzzgVBx/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BzzgVBx)
Now was time to add a vertical loop for mounting the seat & rear fender and to tie the frame together after the rear loop was cut. No handy channel in my scrap inventory. so I welded two equal lengths of 1/2" angle into a channel, made a pair of pie cuts at the bends & welded it up, fish-mouthed the ends to fit the frame, ground everything clean and welded it to the frame.
(https://i.ibb.co/Yy6h2Q4/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yy6h2Q4)
Then made a couple of cuts and removed the rear frame loop.
(https://i.ibb.co/zPYrRw6/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zPYrRw6)
image post (https://imgbb.com/)
Now the seat and fender look much better-
(https://i.ibb.co/3k1M70W/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3k1M70W)
(https://i.ibb.co/pdpn59g/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pdpn59g)
(https://i.ibb.co/5MfX3nD/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5MfX3nD)
(https://i.ibb.co/wy6yBz5/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wy6yBz5)
I did make it to both shows, including the nearby Tryon (NC) Rolling Art car, truck and bike show. I first displayed the bike here last year, so wanted to have some progress to show. Saw several old friends, made some new ones and had a great time.
(https://i.ibb.co/xmqD2wz/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xmqD2wz)
upload image (https://imgbb.com/upload)
Yesterday and today, I had time to resolve the fork brace. The original Record bikes simply utilized a lower or rear font fender brace turned vertical and attached at the upper fender mounts via two small tab brackets. Very simple, probably not incredibly effective but that's what they did so that's what I'm doing. First I had to relieve the stamped end to clear the weld at the bottom of the fork slider.
(https://i.ibb.co/d6Szqkv/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d6Szqkv)
After removing two broken fender mounting bolts from the fork lowers, I made a quick pattern from card stock and transferred it to some handy 14? gauge crs. Ganged the pieces together to sand them to even shape, then drilled and countersunk holes.
(https://i.ibb.co/6tnfQ4L/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tnfQ4L)
(https://i.ibb.co/CJRjK4V/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CJRjK4V)
(https://i.ibb.co/r4W52cF/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r4W52cF)
Some simple bending to match parts was followed by lots of trial fitting. Once all fit well, all was cleaned to prep for brazing. Brazed area was then cleaned, masked and spray painted black like the original Record bikes.
(https://i.ibb.co/dkgsfB8/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dkgsfB8)
(https://i.ibb.co/yWjcZxP/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yWjcZxP)
Fits well and looks good- very cool...
(https://i.ibb.co/GsDqgns/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GsDqgns)
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OK cliff, that tape X hole transfer tip just blew my mind and made this thread worth the price of admission!
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OK cliff, that tape X hole transfer tip just blew my mind and made this thread worth the price of admission!
Very cool- glad you like it. I learned that from renowned sculptor Jim Sardonis during my stone apprenticeship to accurately located & mark holes for dowels/pins for assembly, installation and restoration work. among other work, Jim did the famous Whales Tails in VT.
It works great for irregular surfaces, not just flat. You can also mark the hole or holes on the tape first, then apply it to the two object.
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The last several weeks have been busy in studio, but shipped that job a week ago so I had a little time & $$$ to do bike stuff before the next stone arrives.
I want to use Italian parts when I can. If not, I want to make parts that look Italian. I've had a crashed Ceriani 35mm top clamp or triple tree in the too-good-to-throw-away pile for years. I had plans to use the clamp portions from it as basis for headlight ears but decided on another path.
Using poster board, I made a simple pattern for the ear.
(https://i.ibb.co/P1SVL2Y/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P1SVL2Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/hZzV0vq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hZzV0vq)
(https://i.ibb.co/JdVSgMc/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JdVSgMc)
I transferred patterns to .125 thick 5000 series aluminum and cut them a little oversized, did some bending, welding, filing, sanding, etc and made a practice ear. This pic shows the part bead blasted as I was trying to decide on the surface I wanted. In the end, I polished them.
(https://i.ibb.co/mFgWh2S/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mFgWh2S)
(https://i.ibb.co/x7RRSGq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x7RRSGq)
To attach these to the fork tubes and after studying some more, I settled upon the making clamps to mimic Dellorto carb clamps. Earlier ones, like on SS1 carbs, were aluminum and solid. Later ones, apparently around the time of the V7 Sport, are a folded piece of steel. I decided the folded design would be the best choice to weld to the ear. NOS Dellorto bolts & nuts were ordered. A pattern was made. Using a 35mm knockout punch, I punched two holes and drilled a third smaller hole between these holes. Folding them accurately is not too hard but I'm still working on doing it better to avoid stressing the bend. After everything was bent and trimmed for the nut & bolt, a slot was cut to make the clamp functional.
For those who aren't familiar with a knockout punch, it's a die and cutter that are pulled together to cut a very accurate hole-
(https://i.ibb.co/Vmd1ZBk/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vmd1ZBk)
The hole fits the hammered sportster fork tube perfectly- very cool.
(https://i.ibb.co/L8hQL6n/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L8hQL6n)
Now making the clamps-
(https://i.ibb.co/3f1r4JQ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3f1r4JQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/YfDMsMs/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YfDMsMs)
(https://i.ibb.co/CQ42S24/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CQ42S24)
(https://i.ibb.co/mJnTW1C/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mJnTW1C)
(https://i.ibb.co/bQg2pcn/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bQg2pcn)
Not knowing how the welding would go, I made one clamp slightly wider than the other one.
(https://i.ibb.co/jvjbtSL/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jvjbtSL)
Today I went to town to restock welding supplies. Back at the shop, I decided to try welding everything together. Didn't get pics of the TIG welding and grinding, but my welding is getting better. I used a scrap 35mm sportster tube to align the clamps. Lots of trimming, then welding and more filing, grinding & polishing and I have a practice headlight ear.
(https://i.ibb.co/LJKPXYn/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJKPXYn)
(https://i.ibb.co/G3GBHgy/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G3GBHgy)
(https://i.ibb.co/GRzFcBQ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GRzFcBQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Qj01HQz/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qj01HQz)
(https://i.ibb.co/Hhd4mx0/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hhd4mx0)
image hosting websites (https://imgbb.com/)
I still need to install this on my bike, mark & drill the hole to mount the headlight. I'm using the long headlight on this bike to help house any electrical components are needed. Need to make a few adjustments, but this ear will work well to develop a proper pattern.
Between pending projects and the holidays, it will probably be awhile before much gets done. No matter- it feels good to make some progress.
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Any Updates? :popcorn:
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Any Updates? :popcorn:
Thanks for asking. Hadn't looked over here for a while. Might need to make some more popcorn....
I've had a really busy studio schedule lately, which means little free time for bike stuff beyond planning. There's a nearby bike event/show called the Meltdown in late April. My goal was to have a tank on the bike by then. A local friend wants a seat for his RD cafe project on the same schedule. Doesn't count another Guzzi seat that's also pending. We'll see.
I have done some work and more planning in this war of attrition but no worthwhile pics right now-
The headlight ears were a very good exercise. After I drill a hole and hang the headlight to confirm dimensions for the best fit and placement, I'm planning to make a new pair. I want to coordinate the length of the ears to work with a tach mount above the headlight. The tach mount needs to coordinate with clutch and brake cables. I would prefer to have the proper clip-ons with their unique welded perches here first so the cables aren't fouled by the tach, the mount or the headlight. Until I order another $$box of parts, the clip-ons still in EU. So this project waits.
I have done some work with the tank buck. The lines were ok but not right. Finally I realized that the factory bikes had tanks with a bottom that was not parallel to the lower frame rails like I had made mine. The rear bottom corner of the tank buck was fine. The front bottom corner needed 1 1/2" cut away from the bottom. A front-to-rear diagonal cut across all buck stations fixed that, but requires other changes. To have good joinery, I've cut new base pieces and all new blanks for new stations long enough to notch into the new bases. Also figured out the front tank mount and need to make a minor adjustment to the buck for this detail. With the parts are waiting, I'm looking forward to a long day to do it once I straighten up my wood shop a little.
There were plans to disassemble the original ultra lightweight flip-up gas cap to be serviced and rechromed this winter. Reproduction caps are noticeably different and not what I want to use. Before doing that, I want to resolve the interior cap gasket. The original black rubber/urethane gasket has hardened and shrunken during the past 50+ yrs, so it's useless beyond guiding a pattern for a new one. whether I can make a new one or source one that will work from elsewhere, that still hasn't happened.
I got a pair of Tarozzi folding rear sets. They may stay or go, but will help for now & be faster than building a pair. The headpipes/exhaust/starter/rear sets are the same deal as the clip-ons/cables/headlight/tach. Numerous details are downstream from and dependent upon other details. I would rather bend headpipes than weld them. With Christmas $$, I got a good deal on a tubing bender that may help with the headpipes. The exhaust will likely hit the original starter's bottom bendix so an upgrade to a Valeo is planned to move the bendix to the top. A Valeo starter is not here yet either...
The original bikes used 38mm SS1 Dellortos with remote bowls, mounted on straightened intake manifolds. I had planned to change my chrome bores to new 750 Ambassador parts, but didn't buy them before all sold out. Now I will get new Pistons and have my cylinders replated to keep it at 700. I'm liking the idea of keeping it 700cc more every day. This will help with using both the original heads and the original SS1 29 carbs I already have. I want to straighten the intakes. I can fabricate them here without major issues, but really want to cast new piece. So i'm working on foundry patterns. I do models & patterns for the majority of my sculpture work, whether it's stone or other media like bronze. My best friend tuned flat track bikes years ago before opening the bike shop. A close friend of his was the rider. His family owns a large aluminum foundry about 30 min from here. They designed and cast numerous parts for their race bikes, so casting pieces for my bike has been suggested if I supply the patterns. Still, I need to get a Valeo in place on the bike first to make sure that the normal fuel bowls on the SS1s won't hit the top bendix.... If they don't hit, very cool. If they do hit I'll need to get a pair of remote bowls sooner not later. If I can angle the intakes slightly to make it work, I want to do it that way the first time.
During this time, I've made progress with my welding and welding gear. The seat and fender were both practice pieces, made from scrap aluminum. The welding on these parts was not my best work. I'm planning to make new parts from new aluminum that are both shaped and welded better. Everything is here and waiting except the time to do it.
My schedule was opening up so I had expectations to be working on the bike more around now. at the first of the year, I was invited to demonstrate as the featured sculptor as part of the major annual national memorial industry convention. Lots to do prepping for the event. The event is tomorrow, so hopefully things will settle down sometime soon and I can get some bike time before the lawn needs mowing twice a week. Really looking forward to going down to the shop and doing just my own stuff for a while.
As I've mentioned elsewhere on WG, a stainless steel Whirlypop makes the best popcorn....
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I've studied the art of cedar stripper canoe building a little bit, and had a little understanding about about using a strong back style mold, very similar to a little of your work, but you're taking the whole thing to a completely higher level!
Mad skills, very impressive work :bow: :thumb:
:popcorn:
Kelly
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Hey Cliff,
Still looking good, excited to see your progress at the Meltdown. We will see you there!
Chad
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I've studied the art of cedar stripper canoe building a little bit, and had a little understanding about about using a strong back style mold, very similar to a little of your work, but you're taking the whole thing to a completely higher level!
Mad skills, very impressive work :bow: :thumb:
:popcorn:
Kelly
Thanks, Kelly.
As the years accumulate, doing models has become SOP for the vast majority of my sculpture work. During my apprenticeship, I used models but only rarely had time to make anything before I started carving. Doing clay sketches to cast into formal plaster models before starting on stone improves my stone work significantly, even if I don't point (accurately measure & duplicate) the job. When people visit, they expect to see lots of sculptures just sitting around. Nope. All is sold before I do it, so ships asap when finished. having plaster models here is better for my portfolio than images and visitors can see what I made. We took 8 clay & plaster models of recent work plus one stone and one bronze to that show last week. Having that stuff on hand makes a very good display.
The bucks for this project are just more models to add to the portfolio. I'm sure I could have made the pieces without bucks and made good parts. Doing a buck is the smart way to do it. They help me and they help others understand what I've done & how I did it- both now and later. I like the woodworking, too. I'm not a finish carpenter, but i really like to cut good fitting joints without jigs. Nothing like hand cut dovetails. The joints on the fender buck are great. I'm hoping I can make the tank buck better with these new stations.
Hey Cliff,
Still looking good, excited to see your progress at the Meltdown. We will see you there!
Chad
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I'll be there, Chad. Even if there's not much more progress, I'm looking forward to bringing the bike and seeing everybody again. My friend doing the cafe RD I mentioned had a bunch of tornado damage in town last week, so he's not too focused on bike stuff right now. Me- no damage here but I spent another chunk of coulda-been-lotsa-bike-parts fun money this week on concert tickets for my daughter and me for a BTS concert (her favorite K-Pop boy band) in ATL in May. She'll only be 16 once. The bike will still be here after she isn't.
I may mock up more appropriate perches on these current clip ons so I can get some thing done on the headlight ears & tach mount. Getting that and the tank buck done would be great.
See you at the Meltdown.
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Did some work on the tank buck over the weekend. Finished one stone and had to do some model-related woodwork for the next one, so took advantage of being in the wood shop for a change.
Just like the growing use of technology elsewhere, many now do 3D design and modeling work with a computer using Solidworks or another program. They then slice & dice for files to direct production of buck stations using a waterjet. It's great for economy and speed, but not my preferred method. To me, hand made means hand made. It's all practice. I like the challenge to cut a dozen equally tight and accurate joints in one piece of wood. I also like the challenge to not waste any more $$ plywood than necessary.
When I made the buck using patterns pulled (lofted) from the clay model, I pulled patterns for each side of the station location. Ideally, this would let me fair the stations closely before assembly so less work would be needed later. Like I said, it's all practice and practice is good for any craftsman. Some went a little past where I needed them to be and some ended up needing more work when I fixed the bottom profile as mentioned previously. Fixing the bottom also eliminated interference issues encountered with tank vs distributor. Some larger tanks have a large recess or false area to accommodate such things.
Last fall, I had already cut spacers for the base to locate stations like I had done along the center spine. It's a very simple way to make a tight dado and theoretically keep everything equally aligned. After modifying the bottom plate, I had cut new blanks for the stations as well. Since then, it's all been waiting for time.
Old buck stations along one side were removed. Pattern was transferred from each one to a new blank, with was then ganged to a partner with screws before being band sawed & belt sanded into general shape. This went quickly. Then each station was notched into the new base plate & cut to length. When all were done, spacers were added between the bases of each station. So far, just a single screw at each joint. They may be glued later. I still haven't unbolted the two halves (along the tank midline at top center) to add 1-2 screws to each station. Doing dadoes like this makes things so stable, I'm able to do al this work with stations simply well-fitted into those built-up dadoes. .
When all was together, I began fairing or blending the buck. Some excess was easily sawed away with either bandsaw or my favorite cheap Japanese pull saw. The rest of the blending was done with a 4" 40 grit flap wheel on a side grinder. I like to cut, not to grind or sand things into shape. With plywood, sanding is the necessary method. The ends of the stations are largely resolved. Here's the buck now, beside the removed stations and bottoms.
(https://i.ibb.co/LCQ2R06/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LCQ2R06)
(https://i.ibb.co/4P7xtPM/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4P7xtPM)
The stations are still a little tight in the tunnel area and don't fit as well over the frame mounting bushings I made. I also need to to blend the bottom inner corners when I have them removed. To resolve the tight tunnel, I can either remove each station or unbolt the halves to rework things as needed. Baffles, foam and decreasing tank volume are all being considered. Foam would be the easiest, but wonder about longevity and what it will do to carbs & beyond if and when it deteriorates. Input is welcome....
(https://i.ibb.co/LvLN6BY/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LvLN6BY)
(https://i.ibb.co/m0p7Bwy/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m0p7Bwy)
Aside from the glue in the plywood gumming up the sanding program, the top along center and bottom outer corners were all fairly quick and easy to blend or fair. I still need to fair the sides but ran out of shop time.
(https://i.ibb.co/jgT4JRS/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jgT4JRS)
There's additonal shaping to do beyond fairing the sides. Still, the reworked buck looks good on the bike.
(https://i.ibb.co/SnN5vpy/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SnN5vpy)
(https://i.ibb.co/FskdnGS/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FskdnGS)
Building up a buck like this with spacers used to create dadoes for the stations is a very simple approach to doing a buck by hand. Computer modeled and waterjetted plywood parts are a more-guaranteed perfect fit, but not something most folks can do 100% in-house with few tools. At some point, my homemade & hand made buck can be fully glued together and be super solid.
More to come, hopefully lots more before endlessly mowing grass around this place takes over for months on end..
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Had time to make lots of wood dust lately, sanding these buck stations into better agreement.
(https://i.ibb.co/vkKzwMh/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vkKzwMh)
The original tanks were likely very spontaneous, just made to hold enough fuel and fit the bike & rider as needed. No patterns or buck, just quick,work. This tank I'm building is deliberately trying to mimic that tank, so is a little more forced and determinant. Kinda like a trained artist trying to do child art. So I'm working from both the original pics and taking some guidance from other tanks. As noted before, this tank is smaller than the originals so that also changes things.
The method of building this buck in halves, from the tank centerline outward, makes it very simple to develop the tunnel detail. It was too narrow and tight with these new stations. Remove 5 bolts, which secure in the opposite half with t-nuts, and all is readily accessed and modified as needed.
(https://i.ibb.co/0hLy4x5/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0hLy4x5)
(https://i.ibb.co/2sShP1G/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2sShP1G)
Once the tunnel fit was resolved, I needed to add and develop the solid wood front corners of the tank. This buck isn't a hammerform (where metal is held against the form and hammered into the desired shape) so plain soft white wood 2x lumber is used for the corners. For the front, I needed to glue up thicker pieces. Once ready, contact sides were sanded to better fit the buck.
(https://i.ibb.co/KFKp5F1/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KFKp5F1)
The approx profile patterns is marked on two sides in pencil.
(https://i.ibb.co/T1zqsny/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T1zqsny)
(https://i.ibb.co/mJPrLTt/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mJPrLTt)
Band saw is used to rough in corner along these profile patterns.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZW1fZbw/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZW1fZbw)
The outer corner blank is still very heavy. I like power tools and could tilt the table on the bandsaw to trim here, but things go right or wrong more quickly with some cuts & methods. Just like stone, little pieces are little mistakes. So, once again I used my favorite cheap Irwin Japanese-style pull saw to go slower and carefully knock off these corners.
(https://i.ibb.co/cbV5vyb/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cbV5vyb)
(https://i.ibb.co/FXbYchQ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FXbYchQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rgs0bHL/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rgs0bHL)
The corners were screwed into place, before sanding finished the corners.
(https://i.ibb.co/jV0HKZ3/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jV0HKZ3)
(https://i.ibb.co/0jd35Gb/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jd35Gb)
With all in place and well-sanded, the stations are faired very well. It's easy to see the flow of the tank contours.
(https://i.ibb.co/vZZysmn/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vZZysmn)
(https://i.ibb.co/jh117c0/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jh117c0)
At this point, I think this buck is finallyfinished. All needed now is to add a few light coats of polyurethane, both to protect the wood and keep it clean during the use when metalshaping. Handling the aluminum makes hands very gray and that makes makes for a dirty buck. No big deal in terms of function but I want it to be clean. It provides another piece for my portfolio to display. I would like to start on the metal work for the tank very soon, but doubt that will happen. I still need to address 1. the filler neck spigot for the cap I have yet to restore, 2. the petcock bungs and most importantly 3. proper baffles for this tank. Even if I further reduce tank capacity, baffles should be worth the effort.
Next small project will be mocking up the cable mounts to guide both headlight ears and tachometer mount.
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Fantastic work. :thumb: :thumb:
Very labour intensive but well worth it in the end.
One of the first sheet metal books I brought (Metal Fabricators Handbook and still have it) was by Ron Fournier.
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Fantastic work. :thumb: :thumb:
Very labour intensive but well worth it in the end.
One of the first sheet metal books I brought (Metal Fabricators Handbook and still have it) was by Ron Fournier.
Thank you very much. Lots of learning and improvement on this buck. I enjoy woodworking very much, especially seeing the wood age and yellow after it's done.
That was my first metalworking book as well- I still have it and recommend it highly. When they say someone "wrote the book", it's well understood in the modern Metalshaping movement that Ron Fournier really did. His first book succinctly captured so much information and made it accessible to people outside the trade without any fluff or attitude. It's not that the work wasn't being done. It had never been revealed the way he revealed it, in a way that didn't threaten experts but didn't talk down to novices & hobbyists.
Lots of books, videos and more "dynamic" experts followed. By comparison, Mr Fournier was quiet and reserved with no bs. I got to say thank to him personally for his influence upon me. About 20 yrs ago, I ordered a few tools and he answered the phone. Very cool. Never met or "knew" him but have heard only good things about him. He died not too long ago. Many others have played a major role in this work becoming what it is now but it's safe to say he was the first one to get the ball rolling for people outside the trade.
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I had assembled a full set of older tommaselli clip ons and controls for the project, simply because I like them & it would match my V7 Sport. After enough studying old photos, the clip on pattern which I identified as most similar to the original bars used on the Record bikes are clip ons used on some Aermacchi race bikes. Given Tonti's prior experience with Aermacchi, that's probably not a coincidence. It appears the pattern is still available, so plans changed to order a set.
(https://i.ibb.co/cc74KkZ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cc74KkZ)
The perches on these clip ons route cables as parallel to the bars. The late 850GT perches had similar parallel cable routing. most loops, including my original V700 perches, have perches which angle cables back towards the handlebars. That won't work for this effort.. Since I only have one 850GT perch here, I had to make either something or wait until proper bars are finally in hand. I want to move forward with headlight ears and tach mount. So I made some parts to mock up and provide approximate cable orientation.
Pretty simple. I've already got a pair of spare Magura clip ons on the bike for now. A little bit of scrap oak, some time on the bandsaw, then a gouge & some clean-up on the belt sander and I had a pair of perches.
(https://i.ibb.co/fdQm60r/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fdQm60r)
(https://i.ibb.co/VwWgY97/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VwWgY97)
I removed the V700 perches and tommaselli grips I had on the bike and installed these wooden perches with a couple of hose clamps. These perches have a drilled cup receiver and are slotted to potentially hold a cable. For now, a simple piece of smooth wire in each perch will suffice.
(https://i.ibb.co/VvpSmdk/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VvpSmdk)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZTck453/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZTck453)
(https://i.ibb.co/fM0VxYh/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fM0VxYh)
They look really big, but are surprisingly close to relevant maximum dimensions of the tommaselli matador perches. Didn't spend much time accurately scaling these parts from the photograph. I just estimated them. They should help a lot. Now it's time to get to work on a pair of headlight ears so I can make the tach mount.
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Had a little more bike time today around clay model approval & work. I decided that before I drop the spare unobtainium tachometer while futzing with making & fitting a mount, I should mock-up a substitute. Started with a tin can that was conveniently the same diameter, cut it to length and added a pair of mounting studs to match the real tach.
(https://i.ibb.co/bWJgFng/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bWJgFng)
(https://i.ibb.co/gyB05bW/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gyB05bW)
Then I stepped over to the lathe to make a cap/bezel for this tin can. Figured I would make it long enough to slip it into the can a little and add a few screws. When I realized the handy scrap wood blank was big enough, it only took a few extra minutes to turn up an entire 1:1 scale duplicate oak tach. Should have just done that in the first place.... Now if things go wrong, this one will be lots cheaper to break.
(https://i.ibb.co/DwtTsFm/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DwtTsFm)
I'll add the details on the back asap. Good to make some progress.
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Did a little more with the wooden tach mock-up. Added elements on the back to represent what's there and realistic spacing requirements for the wiring. After that was done, I ebonized it for fun before adding a layer of polyurethane to seal it up for handling.
(https://i.ibb.co/R2pz8wM/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R2pz8wM)
(https://i.ibb.co/bm94v6x/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bm94v6x)
While this - stuff stalls the world, I'm budgeting supplies towards paying stone work and putting off casual spending. Doing wood is fine. I've got quite a bit of mystery crating lumber, looks like oak, unbelievably hard and heavy. It came through the bike shop a while back and what wasn't used for a privacy fence came here.
Last winter, I had scaled dimensions for the exhaust from a contemporary image. Since I have no formal slip roller, i decided I would glue up blanks to turn on the lathe to use as mandrels/hammerforms. After jointing and planing, two blanks were glued up- one for the initial taper and one for the reverse cone megaphone.
(https://i.ibb.co/xHgyyGT/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xHgyyGT)
After initial squaring and trimming, the blank for the initial taper was installed in the lathe. No fancy lathe or accessories here, just me. For this project, I'm the taper attachment....
I turned the piece to round, then marked the ends, then marked the mid point and again marked midpoints between those marks.
(https://i.ibb.co/dcw13vP/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dcw13vP)
One at a time, I set a caliper to the appropriate diameter for each line, used a parting tool to produce that diameter and marked the line again with a pencil. The small end was cut to a straight 11/2" diameter to represent the headpipe.
(https://i.ibb.co/9hNrDxQ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9hNrDxQ)
Then the material between cut diameters was carefully removed to flush to produce the needed straight taper. This is the normal approach to doing accurate stone work. Not .0001+/- machinist perfect but certainly good enough for my project.
(https://i.ibb.co/4fn8xb4/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4fn8xb4)
(https://i.ibb.co/JR6m8hm/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JR6m8hm)
The same process was repeated on the other blank for the reverse cone megaphone.
(https://i.ibb.co/ydfxhgT/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ydfxhgT)
(https://i.ibb.co/Lv6yHv5/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lv6yHv5)
To avoid drama, the ends were left a little heavy to be trimmed off after removal from the lathe.
(https://i.ibb.co/ch1wNK2/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ch1wNK2)
The actual steel cones will end and meet at these two neighboring lines to be welded at an angle where the pipe sweeps upwards at the rear set foot pedal.
(https://i.ibb.co/yg8tp4v/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yg8tp4v)
Pic of the original bike and exhaust-
(https://i.ibb.co/QCvf5nd/image.png) (https://ibb.co/QCvf5nd)
The parts look better with the ends cleaned up and a little polyurethane to seal in the splinters & keep them clean while handling.
(https://i.ibb.co/QNMyP4P/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QNMyP4P)
There's no new crs sheet metal here for these at present and probably won't be any until life & work comes back to some level of normal. For now, I may have some scrap sheet metal to practice and experiment with my planned homemade slip roll/bender fixture. These mandrels should be great to both shape and fine tune what I need to make.
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:thumb:
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Wow! Very impressed with your attention to detail
:thumb:
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Very nice idea with the hammer forms for the exhaust. I also have to make a new set of exhausts for mine at some point, so it is nice with some ideas as I also don't have a slip roller. :grin:
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Thank you, sirs. I'll try to avoid as much hammering as I can to limit how much wreckage is created. These turned pieces should work as mandrels to guide the rolling. There's a couple of things I want to try as a slip roll substitute and will post any success. Another bike/Metalshaping build thread has a simple home built slip roll but it requires a metal lathe that I don't have. Maybe later.
Edit- link including slip roller build, just scroll down- http://www.suzuki2strokes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12737&start=45 (http://www.suzuki2strokes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12737&start=45)
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Time for an update, even if only to post some related progress..
When the - shutdown hit and delayed the pending stone project, I decided to use the time to do,some deep cleaning and reorganizing of my wood/model shop and metal shop. The model shop is done and came out great.
Along the way, some things for the metal shop came together after many years of contemplation and a long series of typical delays. Not done yet, but very close.
I've wanted an affordable metal lathe for years. Most are priced beyond my justifiable need. In April, I bought an antique metal lathe. I posted a little about it in general discussion. It's a Putnam line shaft lathe, 16" X approx 36", circa 1880-90. Unrestored, very complete, in pretty good shape . Completely manual and somewhat archaic but it should suffice for me to learn the ropes and do some basic machining. Best part is that it was not expensive. In fact, enough stuff came from cleaning a neighbor's shed later that day to completely pay for the lathe within the week. Free is very cool...
As purchased-
(https://i.ibb.co/ZB6vKKx/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZB6vKKx)
Cleaned and in the shop.
(https://i.ibb.co/6D9b1WM/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6D9b1WM)
My best friend earned his reputation as a national-level tuner on the flat track racing circuit. Approx 35 yrs ago, a mentor and bike owner called him saying he had a mill for him. He had refurbished this circa 1945 Index Mill Model 40H for him. A quick trip to TN and it came back here to SC. Since then, it has faded into semi-retirement at the local HD dealership. After a decade+ of "you need to get that mill..." arrangements were made a few weeks ago and now it is in my shop. Didn't come with tons of tooling but the price was right. Again, 100% manual. 8" X 22" capacity. Fantastic condition. All it needs is me to plug it up and use it. With decades of motorcycle-specific use, it's very cool to have it in my shop.
(https://i.ibb.co/CnhrXVG/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CnhrXVG)
Right now, the mill is pushed back into a corner. That's because of the ongoing rearranging, based greatly upon the third part of this story..
Metalshaping has become very popular. Hindsight has brought new things about old machines into focus. Mid century, large vibratory shears came into use to accurately and cleanly cut plate steel. Pullmax is the heralded brand. Many comparable machines were produced, but the name Pullmax became synonymous. As technology changed allowing a portable tool to be taken to the metal, these often huge machines became obsolete by the 1970s. When prices dropped to scrap levels, individuals began to exploit the shaping and forming capacities of these machines which had often been of secondary interest back in the day.
The benefit of a Pullmax is that tooling for many operations like beading, flanging and tipping can be made of two simple flat profiles of plate steel, plastic or aluminum. Fast and cheap. More elaborate tooling allows one to make louvers of any length and perform other functions. In recent years, thumbnail dies typical of power hammers have been adapted to enable these machines to accurately and quickly shrink metal. This is a huge asset when shaping metal. Stretching is easy; shrinking is difficult.
Now that many have been scrapped and the rest are easily recognized and prized, it's tough to find bargains. Many build a smaller version of these reciprocating machines. That was a possibility for me, even though I had a realistic concept of how likely or unlikely that would be for me.
Last summer, while cruising c/l at my inlaws in Philadelphia, I unexpectedly found a bargain on this Made in Spain Gairu M1-8 at a race shop near Charlotte Motor Speedway in Concord, NC. It weighs approx 3300 lbs and is rated at 5/16" shearing and 1/8" forming capacity, which is equivalent to a Pullmax P8 or P9. Arrangements were made and it was here on my truck a few days later, along with an original CP Planishing fender iron kit and more. Big score. Last weekend, Ifinally got mounted upon the cart I built and moved into my metal shop with the help of the same best friends connected to the Index Mill. I almost posted on the "How was your Day?" thread because I was having a REALLY good one, but figured it was more relevant here.
(https://i.ibb.co/NWMrRDT/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NWMrRDT)
(https://i.ibb.co/3rKfQrR/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3rKfQrR)
The end game- the lathe and mill will be a big help in making more accurate tooling for my Gairu plus other things as needed. I may upgrade lathes at some point but really like the idea of this one. The shop is pretty crowded right not and will be until I finish & move my big red Galaxie. All now is somewhat on a slow track as eldercare obligations increase. I've got to assemble a phase converter to run my equipment, then keep moving forward. In the end, this equipment should be of great asset for metal shaping work- including my Guzzi Corsa Record project.
I did recently buy a pair of good SS2 remote bowls to use with my v700's original SS1-29 carbs. No direct performance benefit, but these will better emulate carburetion on the original bikes.
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Cliff - I spent about an hour reading your past posts the other day and THE VERY NEXT DAY (!) used your tape transfer method to locate a hole. Great stuff and beautiful work. Thank you!
Love the tips and the super old lathe and cool old mill!
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Cliff - I spent about an hour reading your past posts the other day and THE VERY NEXT DAY (!) used your tape transfer method to locate a hole. Great stuff and beautiful work. Thank you!
Love the tips and the super old lathe and cool old mill!
L
Thanks, man. You're very welcome.
The tape transfer method came from one of my Master Sculptors. During my apprenticeship and later journeyman carving/sculpture work in VT, renowned natural forms artist & sculptor Jim Sardonis spent a significant amount of time in studio working on his own stone projects directly across from my bankers. Whenever I looked up from my stone, what he was doing on his stone was all I could see. http://www.sardonis.com (http://www.sardonis.com).
(https://i.ibb.co/SXxBycq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXxBycq)
Jim has been a professional fine artist for decades. In VT, his Whales Tails are practically as famous as maple syrup... He greatly broadened my perspective beyond the granite industry work I was being trained & paid to do. He taught me a lot about things like interpretation, cost vs value in different markets and much more. Very cool man to know.
Looking forward to carving new stuff with my new machines. Right now project creep has moved into phase converters, build vs buy/trade, how much is too much, etc. think I might have traded a headstone for a big $$ factory-built rotary phase converter this afternoon. Gotta go look at it.
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Great stuff. Love the Sardonis link - those sculptures make me smile.
OK - back to bikes :popcorn:
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:bow:
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This isn't as much of a build update as a general question about the rear axle. The final drive was missing, so an Ambassador final drive and axle was purchased. When I assembled the swing arm and fully seated the axle against the brake plate , the through hole in the offside of the axle was approx halfway through the swing arm. The threaded end will extend past the nut of fully seated and tightened. Right now it's simply assembled to roll around the shop.
(https://i.ibb.co/RBBQBhK/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RBBQBhK)
(https://i.ibb.co/vVPbCtq/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vVPbCtq)
(https://i.ibb.co/cYqx6FH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cYqx6FH)
I've not found any reference to a difference in axles, brake side spacer or other parts between V700 and Ambassador. Neither axle or brake plate appear to be modified. I can make a thicker spacer, but I would rather get a different axle if it would be more correct. Not a big detail. It just bugs me. If someone has familiarity with this issue, input would be appreciated.
The rest of the bike build plods along. A few more parts have been sourced, including new Pistons which arrived this week. While the bike waits, progress on my metal shop has been very good. Other equipment has been resolved- sourced, purchased, built and installed- since my last post. It should be a big help.
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I suspect that you have a front axle installed. Here are the measurements of the axles:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_axles.html
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Thanks, Charlie. Will check and see if I need a rear axle..
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bump
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bump
Thanks, man. I need a bump.....
As a quick update, I've been making some progress on the system. Doing the metalshaping for a seat for a friend's RD350 "real quick" back in Nov clarified that some old injuries will no longer tolerate such things like theyooo did years ago... Some changes in method are helping. This seat is a trial run for my Guzzi tank, as the rear hump is very similar to the rear half of the tank.
(https://i.ibb.co/gVzTpXG/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gVzTpXG)
(https://i.ibb.co/7KXD26F/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7KXD26F)
More shop equipment has been resolved, paid for, moved in, new LED lighting in both buildings and more. The preferred method for welding aluminum sheet is oxygen/hydrogen gas welding. there are many benefits so I decided to assemble a rig. Finally got the last of my gear, including special low pressure regulators rebuilt in Pheonix, last month.
All of this has been happening during a lot of family stuff with my uncle's estate resolution & eldercare for my 79 yo mother plus our daughter's college details plus high school graduation and moving out last week.
These things have made getting an extended amount of time in shop difficult. Now we're home, much is done and I'm anxious to get some shop time building bike parts around "normal" stuff. Spending some time oxy/hydrogen welding aluminum is first on the list so I can wrap up this RD seat. A friend is having a metal meet later this summer and I want to have more done before then.
I have been able to identify the clip ons on the original Record bikes as Menani clip ons. Just a little detail. They aren't made anymore, but are available in reproduction.
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You sir have some impressive metal working skills!
The preferred method for welding aluminum sheet is oxygen/hydrogen gas welding.
I have never even heard of this method, looking forward to seeing your progress. :popcorn:
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Thanks, Jim. The shaping on that seat was largely done with an arbor press, followed by English wheel.
Not sure about the chicken or the egg issues of what came first, but here's some background that I've learned about oxy/hydrogen in recent years-
Oxy/hydrogen was the method used for much of the aviation-related aluminum welding in the USA during WWII. Hydrogen could be readily generated onsite so acetylene could be rationed for more important applications. Acetylene is more versatile for a wide range of cutting, welding and brazing in general, so it remained/became the standard for many following the war. Oxy/Hydrogen is more of a dedicated specialty method. Walk into a welding supply shop nowadays and ask about gas welding with Hydrogen- you'll get lots of ?!?? Looks and remarks.
Oxy/acetylene produces a very hot flame. Once you melt the puddle, it's a WFO race to produce and complete the weld on thin aluminum sheet metal without failure. Not impossible, but it's challenging. The oxy/hydrogen flame is notably cooler and closer to the melting point of aluminum. You can go slower and produce a better weld. For thin material, gas pressure is in the 1-2psi range. A trusted AV certified welder friend is welding 24g aluminum (!) with oxy/hydrogen. Very cool. I would like to be able to do that....
Probably because of the higher temps, Oxy/acetylene requires greater use of flux, on both base metal parts and rod. Oxy/hydrogen only requires the rod to be fluxed. This means there less flux to clean/remove after welding, which is a big plus when welding enclosed pieces like tanks and sculptural work. The flux aspect of welding aluminum parts is the scheduling buzzkill. It's much like casting plaster models in studio- There's no way to skip or expedite the process or clean-up. Miss anything and any remaining flux makes contaminated ferrous metal explode with rust & aluminum parts corrode. Less flux clean-up will hopefully make it easier to fit the welding into my schedule.
The oxy/hydrogen flame is invisible (through the goggles) while burning, so produces no light. The welding puddle/area must be lit by an external source.
In general, gas welding will produce the most equitable weld- it will be as strong, workable and homogenous as the parent metal. This really matters when shaping metal. TIG is good, but more likely to be harder/prone to cracking and produce minutely porous welds (especially tanks from thin aluminum) from what I'm told. MIG is hard and brittle, no good for metal shaping.
I like gas welding better than other methods when it's practical. I'm brand new at oxy/hydrogen, but see it as more practical for the range of sculpture work I want to do, including bikes. Other people do it, so I'm sure I can. At this point, I'm planning to make another seat & fender for my bike. I'm not happy with the quality and know I can do better now.
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Great explanation! thank you, very interesting.
Jim
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Indeed, very nice work and good explanation on the oxy/hydrogen welding process. I just googled it also just because I'm curious, another reason added to the ones above for using hydrogen is that it is very pure in the gas form. Only water and heat will be created while burning. This is a definite plus while welding aluminium. It makes such a difference while TIG welding aluminium how clean you manage to get the metal before welding. I can imagine that acetylene burns dirtier than hydrogen.
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Discussing welding methods is often just another oil thread... I'm not a pro, so only know so much.
Pros who have access to better equipment than I do explain that a cross section of TIG-welded aluminum viewed under a microscope, regardless of the prep, will display minute porosity in the weld that will not be present in a comparable properly prepped gas weld. A metal forum member recently posted about his frustration doing bike tanks with TIG. No matter how he prepped, he often had minute leaks to chase and resolve. The previous explanation came (again) from two of the professional welders on the forum. They suggested that he transition to gas welding as a solution, because the mentioned minute porosity of TIG was not atypical or a the result of user's flawed method.
Carving stone with loud pneumatic hammers has been my career for decades. My ears already squeal all the time, so listening to a squealing TIG doing aluminum in my spare time is a drag. The peace and quiet of gas welding and using the English Wheel to make shapes is great. Producing a sound weld that is as soft as the parent metal is the goal. Hard welds crack when worked and will mark the anvils & wheel on the English Wheel. The two methods work in perfect unison. Very cool...
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I can imagine it could turn out as a oil thread. Please post up your experience with the oxy/hydrogen welding setup, it does sound like a very good match for aluminium welding. For now I use my TIG welder as i don't have anything else that can weld aluminium. And oxy+acetylene/propane/hydrogen setup is on the wish list, but the cost of the bottles are putting that wish on a quite long term plan... The buzz of the TIG can be a little annoying but I find that I have gotten use to it.
Do you have any experience with sandbag + planishing hammer or have you always used the English wheel? An English wheel is probably out of the question for me as the workshop is tight enough as it is, but a pneumatic planishing hammer would be possible to store on the wall when not in use. And I could build one myself quite easily.
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I can imagine it could turn out as a oil thread. Please post up your experience with the oxy/hydrogen welding setup, it does sound like a very good match for aluminium welding. For now I use my TIG welder as i don't have anything else that can weld aluminium. And oxy+acetylene/propane/hydrogen setup is on the wish list, but the cost of the bottles are putting that wish on a quite long term plan... The buzz of the TIG can be a little annoying but I find that I have gotten use to it.
Do you have any experience with sandbag + planishing hammer or have you always used the English wheel? An English wheel is probably out of the question for me as the workshop is tight enough as it is, but a pneumatic planishing hammer would be possible to store on the wall when not in use. And I could build one myself quite easily.
My metal shop,,which also serves as mechanical shop to keep everything from lawn mower to bikes to stone tools operational, is 20x30. Right now, with a car inside, it's too full.
My goal doing metal was to do it with fewer tools, partially because it fit my budget and partially because "real" metal working equipment has become very hard to find. So I used hammers, a stump, shot bag and shop junk for the few small projects. That's all I had.
In 2008(?), there was an article in Street Rodder magazine about using an arbor press to shape metal. A motorcycle fender can be shaped in 20 minutes. Small wrinkles (tucks) are created and then pressed flat to shrink the metal. It works so well it's hard to believe. The limiting factor is throat depth, not tonnage. No noise at all, no power and very easy on your body.
My 2ton arbor press, mounted on old cast iron stand-
(https://i.ibb.co/M19ZxPz/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M19ZxPz)
For this seat hump, I made some simple dies with different radii out of firewood. I turned them on my wood lathe, but they could easily be made by hand.
(https://i.ibb.co/XsBTVyT/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XsBTVyT)
You can work against a small shot bag, hard plastic or anything appropriate for the desired effect for an anvil. I decided to try some of the thick black urethane tube that I used to make the tank mounting bushings. It has a central bore that is the same diameter of my tooling.
(https://i.ibb.co/JqC3dKP/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JqC3dKP)
(https://i.ibb.co/hR7FLPp/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hR7FLPp)
Using this setup, I formed the entire top piece of the seat hump with the plastic protective cover left on the aluminum during the process. It you don't mark the metal during shaping, there's nothing to clean up later. I did planish this part on the English wheel, but that could be done with patience by hand.
(https://i.ibb.co/sKN9yWD/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sKN9yWD)
(https://i.ibb.co/QcTDXTQ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QcTDXTQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/3rxvdbF/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3rxvdbF)
For a small shop with limited space, it's hard to beat an arbor press. It makes no noise. Tooling is very easy to make and it can do many things including shrinking. My current rear fender was also made with an arbor press.
For years, I wanted a cast iron English wheel. Fabricated English wheels are available in built or kit form. The concern I have with many of the fabricated machines is cost vs resale. They hold little value for resale and the final cost to have one working well often rivals a used "real" machine. After 30 yrs of waiting and looking, I got my cast iron English Wheel from a Master Metalshaper named Peter Tommasini in AU. http://www.handbuilt.net.au (http://www.handbuilt.net.au). He is a very important resource for many of us learning about the craft. No games, foolish tricks or bad advice like many (most?) on the Internet and YouTube. Do what he says and it works. His wheel is a fantastic tool to use. I see it as a bank account.
just before and during -, I was fortunate to find great deals and have added a large Gairu (pullmax) reciprocating machine, a CP Fender Iron planishing hammer, a Pexto 13" bead roller, numerous stands plus an index milling machine and metal lathes to make my tooling. After literally 30 yrs of going without, looking for good machines, collecting the equipment & materials to build substitutes in their absence and life in general, I suddenly have the shop I never imagined I would have. I'm still working to get all operational and cleaning out everything else. It's a slow process for a one-man operation.
The large hoop for the planishing hammer has been mounted on an old floor stand but I haven't used it much yet.
(https://i.ibb.co/KXpb8zd/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KXpb8zd)
I also mounted my small shrinker/stretcher on an old foot pedal floor stand and added compound action for increased leverage, based upon the design of vise grip locking pliers (someone else's idea, not mine) It works ok but I need to correct the actuation geometry of mine for the best performance.
(https://i.ibb.co/WG1tq8P/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WG1tq8P)
(https://i.ibb.co/TLRBLwH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TLRBLwH)
My bead roller, mounted but not yet powered, on a new old cabinet-
(https://i.ibb.co/bWpPRrR/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bWpPRrR)
The last year has been very productive in terms of equipping my shop. I haven't gotten much metal work done but i shouldn't have to equip my shop again..
If you decide to build a planishing hammer, it's important to understand that a normal cheap air chisel WON'T work very well. I use air powered hammers for a living. They are not all the same. Buy a proper high quality air motor if you build one. Peter now sells a kit to mount an air motor in one of his cast iron English wheel frames so it can be used as a power hammer. I may make one now that I have machine equipment. We'll see.
If you decide to buy one machine and like the planishing hammer approach, An acquaintance in EU has a machine named a MechHammer. https://www.mechammer.com (https://www.mechammer.com) It's really amazing how versatile it is, fully self contained and very small. Ben is a great guy.
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Figured I would do the gas welding in a separate post. A gas welding rig is indispensable in my shop. I use my oxy/acetylene torch all the time. By comparison, I rarely use my TIG or stick welder unless I'm welding thick material. The addition of an oxy/hydrogen rig is somewhat of a luxury, but should be worth it for the work I expect to do with it now that I'm ready to do more with aluminum.
There's been a lot of consolidation in the welding industry in recent years. As a result, many good styles and quality brands have been discontinued. Additional tips and service parts may not be readily available anymore. So a bargain used torch may not be much of a bargain. Do some research.
I've used a basic set of single stage regulators for 25 yrs that were fine for what I did. Now that I'm trying to weld at such low pressures, I have added a pair of Victor VTS-250 two stage regulators. Since the pressure is regulated in two stages, dropping pressure in the tank does not cause the same fluctuations in psi at the torch. The rebuilder recommended these Specific regulators because rebuild parts are still readily available. He has also found these units can more easily achieve & maintain 1psi-2psi than the larger models. He built these to operate up to approx 5psi, so they're very sensitive. VTS-250 regulators are originally supplied with a letter suffix like A,B, C to denote the original pressure range of use. A is the lowest psi. But any VTS 250 gauge can be rebuilt to the desired specs.
For a torch, last summer I purchased a Meco Midget. One renowned metal expert named Kent White has been pivotal in keeping this torch and related parts on the market. https://www.tinmantech.com (https://www.tinmantech.com) Some people like other torches better, but this one is still 100% supported. It wasn't designed as an aviation torch but has similar forward controls that don't get bumped as easily during use. Most of the actual gas welding aviation torches have gone out of production. For welding thin materials, especially when used with Kent's lightweight lead hoses, the Meco Midget is a very good torch. But torch preference is another oil thread.... I have a favorite old Concoa/Airco torch (out of production) that welds fine with the proper tip. But it has regular controls at the base and a little bump while welding always causes problems. I have a victor J28 clone that I would like to buy more tips for....
If you gas weld very much, a gas saver shut off valve is a smart investment to save both fuel and time. Constantly relighting and adjusting a torch is a deal breaker when all you have to do is lift the torch off the hanger and light it without touching a knob to go back to work.
Setting up this oxy/hydrogen welding kit wasn't cheap. I figured around $1200 so far and still could use a few more bits.
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Bugger I had written a long reply but it got lost. You will get a small resume instead :grin:
Great idea using an arbor press for shaping the metal, I have not seen it used in that way before. Found a few videos on it and it does looks like it works extremely well. I have to get myself an arbor press.
The Mechammer looks very nice as well and I like how they have used a sewing machine motor for the drive unit. Very clever idea. I looked up the price and unfortunately it is way out of my price range at +6000€. But I might give it a shot building one myself. There is a danish style planishing hammer that also uses and electro motor and an eccentric to create the movement of the hammer blow. Perhaps a hybrid could be made fairly easily. I do have a fully equipped machine shop after all :grin:
There is plenty of things I would like to have a gas welding setup to do, so at some point I will likely invest in a set of used bottles and a new set of torches. The ones I usually see for sale are often well past their best by date. Most looks like they have been abused by farmers for the last many decades.
Thank you very much for the great info and the good info contained in those posts and this whole thread!
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Ben's Mechhammer isn't cheap, but the design is good to consider. I was put off by the prices of many new and most used machines. Fabricating what you need is an option. Buying the parts, especially if you cannot do all the machine work, can quickly make that cheap route become expensive. Be realistic about your budget. For example- If you think it will cost X and take 6 months to complete the build, consider it will probably cost closer to 2x and take a year to be fully operational. then look at what can be bought with that budget. That's basically what I did. Keep saving, looking and learning. Along the way, better opportunities were realized.
One consistent trait of many fabricated machines is flex because steel behaves differently than good cast iron. Flex isn't necessarily bad, but some types of flex are less desirable than other types. It's something to be managed if you want consistent results. Cast vs fabricated (especially regarding English Wheels) is a HUGE oil thread...
Until I bought these larger tanks last month, I've used 40cf tanks for decades. The rules about owning & exchanging small tanks vs leasing large tanks and recertification of expired tanks vary here in the USA, mainly between welding supply shops. It's good to ask the local shop to know what their rules are versus trusting what a couple of friends say.
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Slowly creeping onward around life in general, yesterday I finally had to to begin practicing welding .063 thick 3003 aluminum with oxy/hydrogen. Practiced another 10'-15' of bead today. It's no magic bullet, but is far more tractable than the absolute race of welding aluminum sheet with oxy/acetylene. I need to spend more time but am comfortable thinking that this will be a better method for my aluminum bike parts.
We've been discussing oxy/hyd welding on another forum. It's relatively specialized and not as versatile as the more common oxy/acetylene gas welding. Hydrogen requires dedicated equipment and has some unique requirements & characteristics that may not be not suitable for every shop. If I could only have one rig, it would be oxy/acetylene. I plan to keep doing both on aluminum to become a better gas welder in general.
No pretty pics yet. These welds either need careful Photoshopping or a lot more practice before I post them......
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After some practice, I used my new oxy/hydrogen rig & welded up the RD350 cafe seat hump. This is my first "real" part welded after doing a big pile of practice coupons. There were a couple of bubblegums on one bead, but decent overall penetration and I'm pretty happy to be making progress.
During recent weeks, I've learned that this 5000 series aluminum is more corrosion resistant than the 100 and 3003 series aluminum often used for shaped parts, so the mild grainy quality of the welds is probably related to the specific alloy. New proper flux, proper spring water, proper neutral flame, proper psi and ratio, etc will not resolve it.
(https://i.ibb.co/nPkNg40/WIN-20210906-11-42-11-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nPkNg40)
(https://i.ibb.co/sHgNqgc/WIN-20210906-11-42-27-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sHgNqgc)
(https://i.ibb.co/Fsw7KXs/WIN-20210906-11-42-41-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fsw7KXs)
(https://i.ibb.co/drY3V2H/WIN-20210906-11-42-48-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/drY3V2H)
(https://i.ibb.co/8jVk6JC/WIN-20210906-11-42-59-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8jVk6JC)
This seat hump is specifically relevant to my Guzzi because this is essentially the same shape and pieces as the top rear half of my gas tank top. I've already got a new sheet of .063 3003 aluminum for those parts, which should be even better to weld with oxy/hydrogen. Makes me very enthusiastic to do the tank, new seat & fender and do it even better than this RD350 seat.
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Nice work Clint! :thumb:
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Thanks, Jim. I'm pretty stoked with how this looks. I don't really do bucket list stuff- lf I want to do it, I generally just do it. But this metal work & bikes is something I've been working towards for years. It's great to finally turn the corner and be doing it.
It looks even better after a quick few licks with the file. Think I can bump up the low spots and it will smooth up very nicely. The goal now is to get some work done on the tank for my bike. I would like to take it to a show in 2-3 wks and have more aluminum on it.
Edit- seat progress
(https://i.ibb.co/x6GvcGZ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x6GvcGZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/cN9CS2d/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cN9CS2d)
(https://i.ibb.co/J57rwLw/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J57rwLw)
(https://i.ibb.co/S55jbdd/WIN-20210907-14-16-18-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S55jbdd)
(https://i.ibb.co/qNhQGXP/WIN-20210907-14-16-34-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qNhQGXP)
(https://i.ibb.co/SX2Wp5y/WIN-20210907-14-16-42-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SX2Wp5y)
(https://i.ibb.co/fvfVDKV/WIN-20210907-14-16-58-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fvfVDKV)
(https://i.ibb.co/N7nTF4W/WIN-20210907-14-17-17-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N7nTF4W)
(https://i.ibb.co/RG876XP/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RG876XP)
(https://i.ibb.co/dgn5665/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dgn5665)
(https://i.ibb.co/6tB8PNB/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tB8PNB)
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Hi Cliffrod,
Really nice work with the seat! Thank you for posting!
I will be looking forward to follow the build on the Guzzi parts as well!
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clint you better quit window shopping and go beat some metal if you hope to have a tank on the Corsa Record bike in time for The Meltdown! :whip2: :whip2: :whip2:
Hi Cliffrod,
Really nice work with the seat! Thank you for posting!
I will be looking forward to follow the build on the Guzzi parts as well!
Here you go, guys-
Today I started the tank for my bike. I've studied a lot of other builds in recent years. Many times the tank is either just made with no deliberate plan beyond an approx shape. Others build a buck, but often find challenges with balancing sides, having a good centerline, produce no pattern for the tunnel and have mounting & handling issues with the buck during use. I decided to build a modular buck to resolve many of the normal problems. It is working very well.
Because I built dados to locate the stations using a strip of plywood ripped against the fence of a table saw, it was simple to assemble a similarly constructed mount to clamp into my vise. I attached four pieces of that ripped dado spacer plywood to a piece of 2x6 and had a quick durable mount.
(https://i.ibb.co/xzZHxFh/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xzZHxFh)
(https://i.ibb.co/6wMdwqp/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6wMdwqp)
This mount allows me to move the buck to different positions if needed while working.
With buck on working mount in vise, I made a paper pattern for the top center portion of the tank. This was used to cut out the .063 thick 3003 aluminum blank from the full sheet, which was then trimmed close to the pattern after this pic.
(https://i.ibb.co/MZjL58n/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MZjL58n)
Shaping began, using both arbor press and a teardrop pecan mallet that I recently turned & my old shot bag. The RD350 seat proved to be a very productive exercise in some unexpected ways. I canstill swing a hammer very well but have learned that I shouldn't. The injury & recovery after a couple of vigorous sessions was pronounced after decades of stone work, where hammer work is more like a slow-paced marathon than the 100yd dash activity of Metalshaping. The arbor press helps things hurt much less.
I worked the front and rear returns shaped into the initial form, as well as the small z-bend drop in the top. I only had a couple of hours to work.
(https://i.ibb.co/3Sv2HNz/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3Sv2HNz)
(https://i.ibb.co/GRhQygx/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GRhQygx)
Fit to buck is reasonably good for now. Glad to be started.
Edit- spent a little time in shop this morning. Front return is smoothed up some & fitting better and the rear return is starting to lay back down where it needs to be. The blank is a little wide, which makes shrinking along the sides more difficult but allows the more heavily worked metal to be trimmed to make a nicer part.
(https://i.ibb.co/VY7bKqh/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VY7bKqh)
(https://i.ibb.co/6PRpC4d/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6PRpC4d)
Once again, my goal on this bike isn't to make a perfectly smooth sanitized parts that are polished to perfection for the glitz factor. That's now how the original Record bikes (or most race bikes & cars before the multi-million $$ contract and sponsorship days) were built. I want a bike that's more authentic to the original bikes, not overdone.
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After another hour of blocking, shrinking wrinkles and wheeling it smooth, it fits pretty good. It isn't absolutely lay flat on the buck like it could be, but it doesn't have to be to make me happy. The shape is very good, very even and I like it. There can still be a little more trimming when the sides are being fitted and that will help me improve & coordinate the fit.
(https://i.ibb.co/hL8JrWV/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hL8JrWV)
(https://i.ibb.co/qs9pngN/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qs9pngN)
Hopefully this weekend I can pattern and shape the sides. They should go quickly. I think the tunnel will, too.
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That tank panel is looking real good, it sure looks to be a lot work and patience to form the aluminum let alone weld it up :bow:
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Thanks, Jim. It's a lot different doing aluminum than stone. Super fast and forgiving, but I'm still learning. Some things are a lot more challenging to achieve.
Made the sides this afternoon.
(https://i.ibb.co/vP0yr02/WIN-20210918-12-30-42-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vP0yr02)
(https://i.ibb.co/t2VtH3g/WIN-20210918-13-09-41-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t2VtH3g)
(https://i.ibb.co/Tm0JBYV/WIN-20210918-13-09-50-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tm0JBYV)
(https://i.ibb.co/d7RWr8F/WIN-20210918-14-18-38-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7RWr8F)
(https://i.ibb.co/YLmd91v/WIN-20210918-15-29-42-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YLmd91v)
(https://i.ibb.co/z8rmggJ/WIN-20210918-15-30-06-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z8rmggJ)
The second side was quicker and easier to approximately fit to the buck. The original bike tanks had a sharp line around the concave portion of each side. That's how I made the model and buck. But when I started working these, I really like the jellymold shape as is and am now thinking about leaving it as is instead of adding that definition . I've also got a little more return on the bottom edge of the sides right now. I want to trim and fit these three pieces & tack them together, fold up the tunnel and see how it all looks on the bike.
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Very nice.
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Thanks, Turin. I like these sides but have decided to make another pair that are more like the original tank and buck. So this morning I cut out another pair of blanks and did the same for the tunnel.
First I had to make a pattern for the tunnel from the buck. since the buck is made in two identical halves, marking a perfect centerline on the pattern to guide the bending/forming of the tunnel is simple. Necessary clearance related to the tunnel & rest of the bike is also part of the buck, so that information could be transferred onto the pattern as well.
(https://i.ibb.co/wYdfKX3/WIN-20210920-10-26-00-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wYdfKX3)
(https://i.ibb.co/sPQVy8d/WIN-20210920-10-33-35-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sPQVy8d)
(https://i.ibb.co/SnbCkH9/WIN-20210920-10-33-43-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SnbCkH9)
(https://i.ibb.co/fD0zbvq/WIN-20210920-10-38-54-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fD0zbvq)
image upload (https://imgbb.com/)
Then I cut out blanks for the parts and trimmed them to an approx 1/4" margin with my Beverly Shear. I marked the centerline and folds, got the cheap piece-o-crap-but-100%-FREE (guzzi content) harbor freight long brake off the wall and produced the two folds. This brake is not very rugged, but fine for this project. The clamp/shoe is just a piece of milled steel with a sharp edge. To avoid damage to the metal, I covered the shoe's sharp edges with some duct tape. No damage.
(https://i.ibb.co/SBkjdM9/WIN-20210920-11-47-02-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SBkjdM9)
After that, I used the paper pattern to mark the location of the needed clearances on the blank. These areas along the bend will basically be inverted.
(https://i.ibb.co/vHPdNvF/WIN-20210920-11-58-17-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vHPdNvF)
I did some measurements and added a little to what seemed necessary to make sure it would be adequate. Then I used the dimensions to make a pair of small wooden stakes, one concave and one convex, to aid in forming this concave detail. Very cheap and easy-
(https://i.ibb.co/DbBWmKG/WIN-20210920-13-14-20-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DbBWmKG)
The blank was held over the vise-mounted concave stake, the detail was developed & then planished a little with hammers and mallets using both stakes. Because this stretched the metal some, the fold flattened out some and extra length in the metal made things a little wavy. I used the English Wheel to help work the effective fold back to 90 degrees. This one isn't perfect. I used a steel hammer that was a little too heavy and it marked up the metal more than I wanted to. But it will be out of sight & fine for this project. And there's no reason to make it perfect yet unless the other side turns out significantly better.
(https://i.ibb.co/zhYRSQ8/WIN-20210920-13-13-09-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zhYRSQ8)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rp71ZVn/WIN-20210920-13-13-24-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rp71ZVn)
Time to head back down to the shop and see how much nicer I can make the other clearance before bending it into the actual tunnel...
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The second relief formed easier. I didn't use any steel hammers, so it didn't stretch & deform the metal in the same way. No real planishing yet. The folded flanges were squared up while I had it in the English wheel. Bending the tunnel was done slowly to produce an even tunnel and overcome spring back or a sharp peak on the centerline. The black rubber mounting collars I made work great. At this point the tunnel is still too long, but it still fits on the bike. There's ok clearance for distributor but I still may relieve the bottom a little more to make sure. Looking at old pics, this seems to be a good match for the placement of bottom of the original tanks.
(https://i.ibb.co/XYBCpLN/WIN-20210920-15-43-37-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XYBCpLN)
(https://i.ibb.co/4sm0YXc/WIN-20210920-15-43-51-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4sm0YXc)
(https://i.ibb.co/bHNyM9g/WIN-20210920-15-44-24-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bHNyM9g)
the top was marked and conservatively trimmed to fit over the frame and approximately match the tunnel. Then the tunnel was trimmed on the ends as well so I could set all together on the bike. Pretty happy. The top will be trimmed a little more to drop the tank top profile lower on the bike, probably more at the rear than at the front. The bottom flanges are still very wide near the valve covers, too. I'll work the sides into shape first so all can be matched and trimmed together.
(https://i.ibb.co/KX03kS9/WIN-20210920-16-49-04-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KX03kS9)
(https://i.ibb.co/8PgPctY/WIN-20210920-16-49-14-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8PgPctY)
(https://i.ibb.co/1YVBBPH/WIN-20210920-16-49-34-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1YVBBPH)
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Nice CAD work Clint (cardboard assisted design)!
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Nice CAD work Clint (cardboard assisted design)!
Nope- it's what my grandmother would call Clinton Arthur Design.... She always reversed my name. Thanks, Jim.
I did the new sides today. Started with two blanks and developed them in synch with each other. I learned this as a chef and then during my stone apprenticeship. Do the same thing to everything first, then step two, then step three... It usually produces more equitable results in less time.
All work was done with a couple of pecan mallets, shot bag, a couple of wooden (pecan) stakes in the vise and my English Wheel.
(https://i.ibb.co/fQ0QJjL/WIN-20210921-10-17-24-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fQ0QJjL)
(https://i.ibb.co/DLVC4fY/WIN-20210921-10-43-06-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DLVC4fY)
(https://i.ibb.co/gVf9WG6/WIN-20210921-10-43-22-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gVf9WG6)
(https://i.ibb.co/3vdtxFT/WIN-20210921-12-26-48-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3vdtxFT)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y07g41g/WIN-20210921-13-45-37-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y07g41g)
(https://i.ibb.co/NVzn6Hs/WIN-20210921-13-45-49-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NVzn6Hs)
Once they were mostly resolved, I tried them on the bike with top and tunnel
(https://i.ibb.co/G3DN1QZ/WIN-20210921-13-46-47-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G3DN1QZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/F8gzXtm/WIN-20210921-13-47-00-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F8gzXtm)
(https://i.ibb.co/DGVhWrC/WIN-20210921-13-47-18-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DGVhWrC)
I knew the blanks had extra material at the bottom. But they still looked wonky big. When I got ready to mark then to cut them, I found the lower detail line was too low. If I cut the bottom off as is, the cut would be along this detail line. Not cool.
But this is why I think this metal shaping work is such a great method & media. I just moved the detail line. Marked it where it needed to be with a sharpie magic marker, put a different stake in the vise, grabbed a mallet and moved the line. Then I cleaned up everything in the English Wheel. Very cool. By comparison, if this was a piece of granite, it would be thrown away and started over. I've never had to do that, but know others who have.
The mallet and sharp edge stake, both are pecan from my firewood pile-
(https://i.ibb.co/SJfFfhN/WIN-20210921-17-34-39-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SJfFfhN)
there but for the grace of god lyrics (https://poetandpoem.com/Edwin-Arlington-Robinson/But-for-the-Grace-of-God)
In process, moving the line approx 1 1/2" -
(https://i.ibb.co/GvjXZrv/WIN-20210921-16-58-44-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GvjXZrv)
(https://i.ibb.co/XVsSSy2/WIN-20210921-17-01-01-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XVsSSy2)
One side done, next to the other one still in the initial configuration for comparison-
(https://i.ibb.co/Kzf8Q35/WIN-20210921-17-06-35-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kzf8Q35)
After they were done, I marked the bottom for a close preliminary trim. They look lots better on the bike now. With the return at the bottom, engine access & clearance around valve covers, distributor and carbs is even better. Looking from top, it's clear how much will be trimmed from the tunnel flange.
(https://i.ibb.co/kg62Tqr/WIN-20210921-17-23-24-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kg62Tqr)
(https://i.ibb.co/2WzmVL0/WIN-20210921-17-23-34-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2WzmVL0)
(https://i.ibb.co/zrsjRrV/WIN-20210921-17-24-05-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zrsjRrV)
(https://i.ibb.co/pjKr8K4/WIN-20210921-17-34-56-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pjKr8K4)
Time to start the serious fine tuning for final fit & trim work so I can start tacking the top together.
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Tweaked the shapes of the sides a little yesterday, then started trimming and fitting the first side to the center today. Get a pretty good fit but to the buck and to each other. It also reduced the tank in size and achieved a better flow. This tank is now narrower than my V7 Sport tank.
(https://i.ibb.co/16RMBYX/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/16RMBYX)
I had only planned to tack these together, but went ahead and welded it while the heat was in it. Oxy/Hydrogen rig. No flux on this 3003 aluminum base metal, just on rod. It welds a lot easier and prettier than the 5000 series aluminum used for the RD350 cafe seat, but it still is a heat sink issue with the cooler oxy/hyd flame temps. The outer 2/3 of the weld bead went ok. The center 1/3 was really cold. So I've still got more work to do.
No matter, it's looking good for now.
(https://i.ibb.co/fY6wVn4/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fY6wVn4)
(https://i.ibb.co/BG1RW5W/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BG1RW5W)
(https://i.ibb.co/p3Xj3N6/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p3Xj3N6)
Now I can trim, fit and spot weld/weld the other side in place. The top still needs to be fitted to the tunnel, which should shorten the installed height.
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Damn this is cool !
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Cool and very nice work :boozing:
Bruce
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Thanks, guys. the second side was trimmed and welded in today. I had more success welding this side (more pre-heat, wrapped tank in blanket and used a bigger tip) but still not complete success. I dressed the welds with a file and will fix the flaws later. Still lots more to do. These pics aren't much different but most are better quality than yesterday. Last one is washed from the sunlight when I went outside to get a better angle.
Sure makes a nice pair of bikes to have side by side in the shop.
(https://i.ibb.co/Yhx4xYK/WIN-20210924-16-26-37-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yhx4xYK)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZLLn15B/WIN-20210924-16-27-36-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZLLn15B)
(https://i.ibb.co/7CM2S7w/WIN-20210924-16-28-09-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7CM2S7w)
(https://i.ibb.co/6vSrMKQ/WIN-20210924-16-30-33-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6vSrMKQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/mB28CnX/WIN-20210924-16-32-32-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mB28CnX)
Before I do any more fitting & trimming, it's time to work on the filler neck, vent and petcock bungs.
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Nice work Clint, cominga long real nice :thumb:
are you going to make the fairing to match?
(https://i.postimg.cc/6334GNbK/P7200286.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hJktHNqZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LXT6LVX/P7200287.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DWJzpnRb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJBDxF4t/P7200288.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qh2v0QJJ)
I can hardly believe I took this picture back in 2013, where does the time go?
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I'm not sure. We were talking about it today. Fairings on a bike in a small shop are a drag, but i do like the fairing. will probably make one eventually. There are a lot of other things needing address first.
Edit- I didn't realize those were YOUR pictures, Jim. Thank you for taking them and letting them get out into the Internet realm. They have been a significant resource for this project.
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I'm not sure. We were talking about it today. Fairings on a bike in a small shop are a drag, but i do like the fairing. will probably make one eventually. There are a lot of other things needing address first.
Edit- I didn't realize those were YOUR pictures, Jim. Thank you for taking them and letting them get out into the Internet realm. They have been a significant resource for this project.
I hope you can make the fairing one day, it would be great.
I kick myself for not taking many, many more pictures of the museum bikes, I took a lot of pictures of the V7 Sport because that was the bike I was restoring at the time but I sure wish I had taken a couple hundred pictures of the various bacon slicers and race bikes, I need to get back to Italy and the Guzzi museum, hopefuly next year....
Italian panel beating is ART in itself
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2nWZ4rk/P7200289.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RJ9V0fhc)
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I hope you can make the fairing one day, it would be great.
I kick myself for not taking many, many more pictures of the museum bikes, I took a lot of pictures of the V7 Sport because that was the bike I was restoring at the time but I sure wish I had taken a couple hundred pictures of the various bacon slicers and race bikes, I need to get back to Italy and the Guzzi museum, hopefuly next year....
Italian panel beating is ART in itself
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2nWZ4rk/P7200289.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RJ9V0fhc)
What I've learned doing this tank is that some of the organic shapes that are so quintessentially Italian are not necessarily a deliberately composed design. They are simply a natural action-reaction function of the metal as it is hammered, stretched and shaped in certain areas and left alone in other areas.
The side of those original Record bike tanks got the majority of their "flow" by how they were stretched at top and bottom while the center area was left alone in whole or part. I was tempted to leave them that way and not add the more pronounced concave detail. But they were in strong tension, which is not good for installation. Adding the deliberate concave detail relieved that tension and looks like the Ducati Americano tanks l like so much. The Record bikes were built for such limited use, they only had to survive for a few days of use. Mine will hopefully get more,use than that.
I'm really enjoying the Metalshaping. My original plan was to do this level of special bodywork for my V7 Sport, simply because I had it. Simply bolt-on stuff, but use it as a canvas for new shapes. Then this loop chunk showed up cheap, I discovered the Record bikes and it was time for a new plan.
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Very nice work, and thank you for the detailed description and pictures of the tools! :popcorn: :bow:
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Thanks, Rick. Hopefully it will help others make parts they want for their bikes.
The original bikes used a cheap generic Italian flip-up gas cap. They were also used on some of the MV Augusta singles. Repro versions available now as ultra lightweight racing fuel cap are slightly different (both cap and base ring), but I was able to source an original cap.
For the filler neck. I folded a double thickness of aluminum with extra length for the neck, rolled it into a tube and filed it to fit inside the base ring. After it was ready, I marked the tank and made a hole with a knock-out punch.
(https://i.ibb.co/vkM4pww/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vkM4pww)
To install the filler neck, I turned a flange on the hole in the tank. I started with a simple slotted tipping tool before working the flange into final shape with hammer and dolly. The more refined way to make one is with a flaring or belling die set. Without a flange, welding is much more difficult and the tank is likely to distort when the weld cools. The lip created by the folded double thickness provide the necessary arrangement for a butt weld between flange & filler neck.
(https://i.ibb.co/cLw7Lww/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cLw7Lww)
(https://i.ibb.co/jVMRqts/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jVMRqts)
All was welded together. I welded the filler neck with oxy/hyd. No issues, no problems. Tried welding filler neck to tank with oxy/hyd and still need to learn how to do larger pieces.... So I used my oxy/act torch and had the weld done in a couple of minutes.
(https://i.ibb.co/6tHxnZv/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tHxnZv)
(https://i.ibb.co/7XwPbnD/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7XwPbnD)
The filler neck is long to allow trimming if needed. This old cap came with the original shrunken, hardened rubber cap gasket. Until that gasket has been replaced with ??, I don't know how tall or short it needs to be.
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Thanks for sharing the details of your fabrication, very imformative, you make it look easy but I know its anything but :thumb:
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Well, resolving the welds on this tank IS a lot faster & easier with oxy/act....
I've been filing and planishing a little and fixing the holes. With more work, I'm sure I could make it perfectly straight and smooth but that isn't how the original tanks were finished. It's clear from the pics they are not perfect. After all is done and it's painted with primer, this tank should look pretty close to those tanks.
(https://i.ibb.co/yS9Lcc2/WIN-20211001-07-47-53-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yS9Lcc2)
(https://i.ibb.co/Fkr1RHD/WIN-20211001-07-48-01-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fkr1RHD)
(https://i.ibb.co/DQsqqL7/WIN-20211001-07-48-23-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DQsqqL7)
(https://i.ibb.co/gtbrCcb/WIN-20211001-07-48-54-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gtbrCcb)
edit -
Thanks for sharing the details of your fabrication, very imformative, you make it look easy but I know its anything but :thumb:
Those MG Museum pics you've sent have already helped, Jim. Among other things, I've been able to see the rear fender mounts to battery tray were riveted to the fender. That's been a blurry detail in every pic to date. So I'll be correcting that shortly. Thanks, man.
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i don't have the material for bungs or related parts here yet for the tank, so I made a little progress on the frame.
The rear hoop of the frame has been cut like the original bikes. The frame tubes needed to be capped and exhaust hangers needed to be made & installed.
Based upon Jim's museum pics, the original hangers appear to be made of two pieces, laminated together to provide some wrap around the frame rail for better integrity. I made mine a little longer on the outside, figuring they will have to last longer than a few days of use.
Caps and hangers-
(https://i.ibb.co/Vp7Zm4w/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vp7Zm4w)
(https://i.ibb.co/vh28JW5/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vh28JW5)
Gas welded in place, with quick wire wheel/sander clean-up and a shot of primer-
(https://i.ibb.co/TBFf2gC/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TBFf2gC)
(https://i.ibb.co/GTsthQ5/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GTsthQ5)
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It really looks like a bike now! :bow: :bow: :bow:
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Thanks, Chad. One of these days, it'll get done. In the meantime, a little more progress ....
The original exhaust nuts in the engine aren't perfect, but they're not half destroyed by channel lock pliers like the ones that came on (and are still on) my V7 Sport. They didn't easily budge with a wooden drift. So for the last however long, I've been keeping them wetted with ATF. There isn't an exhaust wrench in my G5 Guzzi tool kit on the sport. Nothing else in the tool boxes here fit particularly well. And those cool exhaust wrenches on eBay cost $$$.
So while Elsmore observed the other day, I made a quick rubbed paper pattern of the installed nut. Glued it to a handy piece of scrap metal. About an hour of Hole sawing, bandsawing/hack sawing and some filing later, it fits pretty good and works even better.
(https://i.ibb.co/CVJBdzJ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CVJBdzJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/QphGF6P/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QphGF6P)
(https://i.ibb.co/HdL9RqH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HdL9RqH)
Both nuts came loose with no trouble or damage. Threads in heads are great. Very cool and Elsmore was thoroughly entertained by the effort. but I finally lost a long-suffering tire on the bandsaw at the beginning of this project. Once that's replaced, I'll pretty up the wrench with rounded corners and a nicer handle
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Nice job fabricating that exhaust nut wrench! Far more satisfying than just plugging in your MasterCard and ordering one.
I need to make one just like that for my Moto Morini 500 and hadn’t figured out how to make it.
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Nice job fabricating that exhaust nut wrench! Far more satisfying than just plugging in your MasterCard and ordering one.
I need to make one just like that for my Moto Morini 500 and hadn’t figured out how to make it.
It's very low tech... That's why Elsmore stood around and watched. He said he wanted to see this work.
A piece of scrap paper is marked on the end of the pipe.
(https://i.ibb.co/1d5WdkY/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1d5WdkY)
The marked circle is trimmed and opened in one side to easily fit over pipe. Then it is installed against the exhaust nut and rubbed with a dirty finger to define the pattern.
(https://i.ibb.co/0nrS37D/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0nrS37D)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpwsH1v/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tpwsH1v)
Now the pattern & blank are nearly ready for a quick squirt of 3M 77 upholstery adhesive. Trimming the pattern with a razor blade after gluing it to the blank helps assure the tabs will properly aligned and not torn.
(https://i.ibb.co/f45BbDs/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f45BbDs)
Before I glued up pattern & blank when I made my wrench, I used a slightly undersized 1 3/4" hole saw on my drill press to open the center close the needed approx 1 7/8" diameter.. That made it easier to roughly align the pattern to the blank. After that, it was a matter of sawing and filing away what wasn't needed.
I tried to keep the end tabs very tight and work the other tabs away from the center point. Its also important to keep checking the fit from both faces of the wrench to make sure the tabs are even & square. It's a little tedious but worth it to get a tight fit. And to show Elsmore how to do something new...
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As my lathe skills for making bungs for the tank develop, I got a sheet of 18g crs for bike and car stuff. I need a slip roll to make the exhaust components. Using materials collected for other machines, I made a very low $$ version of a slip roll.
About a foot of angle iron was cut, trimmed and welded to make both fulcrum and adjustable ends. Fulcrum end needs a little shim work but that's simple.
(https://i.ibb.co/C0dHHNX/WIN-20211022-11-30-35-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C0dHHNX)
(https://i.ibb.co/NLwp6S2/WIN-20211022-11-32-47-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NLwp6S2)
The adjustable end has top retainers with a simple welded nut adjuster to allow the lower two bars to spread to form a taper.
(https://i.ibb.co/crtsg0q/WIN-20211022-11-30-26-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/crtsg0q)
(https://i.ibb.co/xYryTkk/WIN-20211022-11-31-35-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xYryTkk)
Screwed to an oak board, all is good-
(https://i.ibb.co/K68tYs3/WIN-20211022-11-30-05-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K68tYs3)
Metal isn't formed by rolling. The longer top bar is pressed down as the metal is progressively moved to produce an even bend. Using a piece of scrap that wasn't trimmed, it quickly became a nice smooth rolled piece of aluminum. Very cool.
(https://i.ibb.co/bmtzQNg/WIN-20211022-11-33-03-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bmtzQNg)
(https://i.ibb.co/PwkBmF2/WIN-20211022-11-33-21-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PwkBmF2)
(https://i.ibb.co/JQ2PV9x/WIN-20211022-11-33-30-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQ2PV9x)
I wouldn't want to go into production using my slip roll bender, but it works great. Making one with three pieces of plain iron or black pipe, some scrap lumber and screws would probably work just as well and be even cheaper. For a machine that may not be used much, it's another low $$ option.
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there's multiple ways to produce the patterns for tapered cones. I hate doing lots of math, so I used the wooden patterns of the reverse cone megaphones that I made (scaled up from pics of the original bikes) with paper, tape, ruler and sharp knife to do the patterns for the metal blanks.
Paper was taped to the wooden patterns, then tightly wrapped & overlapped before being taped to itself. the ends of the taper were trimmed with a sharp knife. A straight edge was taped to the overlapped paper. A cut along the straight edge produces nice long edges as it releases the paper from the wooden pattern. lots easier that trying to lay out and produce perfect precise radii cuts...
(https://i.ibb.co/HxZPfJm/WIN-20211022-11-41-38-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HxZPfJm)
(https://i.ibb.co/52XbqVP/WIN-20211022-11-44-05-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/52XbqVP)
With collector, main taper and reverse taper, there are three patterns in total.
(https://i.ibb.co/H7sgsr3/WIN-20211022-11-58-59-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H7sgsr3)
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The long parts were more challenging to get into shape than the short tips, but I'm happy with the results.
Laid out the patterns and cut the blanks from 18g steel.
(https://i.ibb.co/64Hx862/WIN-20211023-11-24-34-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/64Hx862)
I used my slip roll bender, a wood slapper to help convince the long parts to curve and a long piece of pipe to gain more leverage. Steel bars like these flex at a predictable rate, so you've got to assist the metal to curve in the center where flex is most counterproductive.
(https://i.ibb.co/hRJtMg1/WIN-20211023-12-50-54-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRJtMg1)
Everything can be gas welded and then will wait for final trim & fitment to bike after the new head pipes and crossover are made.
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I've made similar exhaust nut wrenches (Ducati) by taking an old nut that still had some of the fins on it, cutting a bad section of broken fins out to open it up and then attaching a handle.
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Impressive work! Love your roller - might have to make one.
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Impressive work! Love your roller - might have to make one.
Thanks, man. The good words are much appreciated.
The best thing about this slip roller bender is there are no commitments of special materials like the steel bar that are kept around to be used for a variety of jobs. as example, I needed to tune these long cones. Real Pexto stakes for such mandrel-type work are hard to find and not cheap. So a handy steel bar, like one used for the slip roll bender, can be clamped into a vise and used with a simple outboard leg, in this case a scrap length of 2x4 with a slightly larger hole through it, and it becomes a great mandrel to use with a slapper, made from an old file.
(https://i.ibb.co/v4CpXyp/WIN-20211024-13-04-49-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v4CpXyp)
Easy to install, remove and adjust tension on leg as needed. It's equally fast and easy to install and remove work.
All parts are welded, tuned as needed, welds dressed and shot with some handy paint simply to ward off rust until there's time and materials for more progress. Wooden patterns, paper patterns, finished collectors and reverse cone megaphones.
(https://i.ibb.co/Dg3M2vV/WIN-20211024-13-03-13-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Dg3M2vV)
Sure has been great to have had time and gorgeous fall weather to to enjoy while spending a weekend making bike parts. Very cool.
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Oh man do I need to start working on my heap. your bike is going to be amazing!
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Oh man do I need to start working on my heap. your bike is going to be amazing!
Thanks, man. I hope so. I've been studying your 850T pics & details, thinking about engine build details when that far away day comes. Until then, the carnage continues. Today, another egg was broken and another omelet was made. Fabrication for the rearsets began....
First step was the sawing-
(https://i.ibb.co/0hK7RPD/WIN-20211026-12-25-34-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0hK7RPD)
All I have for reference to make these rearsets are a variety of pics from a variety of angles that are just as varied in how much or little usable information they provide. I would doubt the original bikes used solid bar for the loop, simply because it would have been unnecessary weight. I've looked at some new steel tubing. But since I'm cheap and romantic, I figured I already had a perfect piece of factory-approved tubing to try and use. So the original rear footpeg bracket was carefully trimmed away from the removed loop.
(https://i.ibb.co/Trm1nqK/WIN-20211026-12-33-00-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Trm1nqK)
The tube was cleaned, reshaped and shortened. A pair of new peg brackets were cut and shaped before being welded to the new shortened hoop. When the pedal and shifter is made, the brackets will be drilled and a sleeve added between them for strength. Probably will add some support connecting the edges of the two bracket pieces after that is done to keep all as strong and aligned as possible. When it's time to weld everything to the frame, I'll make a pair of steel inserts to replace the dowels holding it together right now for pics.
(https://i.ibb.co/jJDYFSR/WIN-20211026-14-54-48-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jJDYFSR)
The remaining original tube and bracket will be put aside and saved, just in case I can recycle it into the project at some point.
(https://i.ibb.co/K6PX06y/WIN-20211026-14-56-36-Pro.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K6PX06y)
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A quick update for those following..
For nearly 20 yrs, we've lived adjacent to large pastures. Laid back, no worries. Very cool. Now the pastures are turning into a 1000-house subdivision. Not cool. So my termite-eaten, cracked & jacked slab wood/model shop that cannot be locked will be removed and rebuilt twice as large. One bay will be my new bigger wood shop. The other will be much-needed dedicated bike & car parking/storage. So my Corsa Record is being sidelined in order to put my 1967 Galaxie- which was underway & sidelined when the Guzzi arrived- back together and out of the shop to make room for my woodshop equipment during construction. Aside from collecting parts, I'm not expecting to get much work done on any bike for quite a while. Kinda bummed, but will be great to finally get vehicles out of work areas and make things more secure & efficient.
On a more positive note, progress is being made my second Corsa Rosso V700-ish loop project. A bare V700 frame and wheels I've had for years will wear all the oem parts removed from my Corsa Record project. A good group of V700 parts from a deceased Guzzi friend named Richard came fromTN. The 850 Guzzi tractor will participate in some way. A usable front end was sourced via eBay. Earlier this fall, Mayor of BBQ Chad donated a 5 gallon bucket + of nuts, bolts and other Loop pieces. Nick sent some bits from up north. Yesterday, a big box arrived from Charlie Mullendore with front brake, front fender mounts, petcocks to rebuild and a well-ventilated but free later loop gas tank that will be used as a pattern for an aluminum tank. It will be fun to build a bike from parts & friends when the time comes. Thanks, guys.
And I got a crunchy but decent 1966 Sprint a week ago to put back for later. Building a bike like Jim's Ala Verde is tempting, but so is a cafe bike more along the lines of Lino Tonti's Linto 500 or other Aermacchi-related machines...
(https://i.ibb.co/gtzXnxf/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gtzXnxf)
Until then, thanks for watching. I'll be back.
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I've had a couple of galaxies. FE under the hood?
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I've had a couple of galaxies. FE under the hood?
Yup. Factory Q code 428 C6 red on red bench seat car with a/c and original disc brakes. 61k original miles. Ive got a 428pi intake, 427 long exhaust manifolds, bigger Holley and more to set it up just like my old 67 Galaxie with a 428PI that I built as a kid. Planning to change trans to a a 67 390 Galaxie wide ratio 4 speed toploader and add pentroof valve covers & a Holman Moody style NASCAR cowl plenum air cleaner that I've made.
(https://i.ibb.co/LgxNJ2z/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LgxNJ2z)
(https://i.ibb.co/BjZw7Fs/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BjZw7Fs)
(https://i.ibb.co/VHX2Rtv/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VHX2Rtv)
No fancy resto, just an old car. It should make a great Guzzi tow car when needed...
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The filler neck is long to allow trimming if needed. This old cap came with the original shrunken, hardened rubber cap gasket. Until that gasket has been replaced with ??, I don't know how tall or short it needs to be.
Cliff PM me your address I have a couple sheets of great gasket for this application. I used it to replace the cork gasket on my Ambo tank cap and it has been stellar.
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Cliff PM me your address I have a couple sheets of great gasket for this application. I used it to replace the cork gasket on my Ambo tank cap and it has been stellar.
Thanks for the offer, Chad. I have some flat material here that's probably similar here.. The ? is more about how I configure and attach the seal. The original seal/gasket is somewhat fancy. The repro caps appear to use a metal retainer (probably with rivets) to hold a flat gasket in place, which is probably how I'll do mine.
I've also got some new muscadine wine here, so expect we can come to an appropriate arrangement.....
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Still havent got that in the mail, Clint. I had some manilla envelopes around here somewhere... cant seem to find them. Will depart soon, good thing this is a long-term project. FYI the material is Buna-N (Nitrile) sheet at 1/8" thick IIRC
It should mosey down there in the next week or so, maybe it will beat Santa to your hose! And yeah, I am always down for some muscadine wine!
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Still havent got that in the mail, Clint. I had some manilla envelopes around here somewhere... cant seem to find them. Will depart soon, good thing this is a long-term project. FYI the material is Buna-N (Nitrile) sheet at 1/8" thick IIRC
It should mosey down there in the next week or so, maybe it will beat Santa to your hose! And yeah, I am always down for some muscadine wine!
No time for any Guzzi progress lately, but I wanted to post a couple of quick updates-
1. I wanted to post a big thank you to the Mayor for his generous donation of Buna-N to the project & the gas cap gasket effort. Your muscadine wine awaits.
2. I was pleasantly surprised yesterday to learn that I (or at least some guy with almost the same name as me- I'm the II, not the III...) have been awarded Metal Shaper of the Month over on the AllMetalShaping forum for the metal shaping portions of this ongoing bike build!! Very cool- sure didn't see that coming.
(https://i.ibb.co/N7y6kwQ/MSOTM032022-Corsa-Record-user63-pic21185-1646115692.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N7y6kwQ)
Looking forward to getting caught up some around here so I can get back into the project. Lawn mowing season is about to begin and that always complicates fun time in the shop.
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Time for a brief update and HUGE thank you.
Life responsibilities continue to take priority over bike stuff. Then, the addition of an 81 Lemans CX100 to the herd at the end of April and ongoing sorting diverted limited available attention and resources from the Corsa Record project. But the break has allowed me some perspective and time to better critique my progress to date.
I’m not happy with the tank top, in terms of comparison to the World Record bikes. I’ve taken some artistic liberty, but now it’s not what I want it to represent. The spontaneous character of the original bikes is what I want to capture, but. It’s hard to be accurately spontaneous on purpose…. I also want to add some baffles to benefit handing, which would be difficult with the current one piece top. Mad Genius Allen Millyard did a similarly-shaped tank for his replica Honda RC 250-6 build, which he fabricated & assembled in a different order to facilitate the installation of baffles. So a full rework had become the plan.
This morning, I was surprised with a large group of pics from Canuck750 Jim Carey in my email inbox. He generously took time during his current Mandello Anniversary trip to get many new pics of the existing original World Record bike in the factory museum, including many details I had yet to clearly see. One shows the rear of the tank being much more narrow than I previously understood it to be. So a serious rework of the tank is now even more palatable.
These pics will be indispensable to the project and are sincerely appreciated. Thank you for being a friend, Jim.
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Several years ago a friend Let me ride his v700 and I was surprised by how good the handling and brakes were compared with my memory of my old Eldo.
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Cheers Clint!
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More little progress today.
After lots of comparison studying, I had concluded that Tonti had used clip-ons matching those used on Aermacchi race bikes which would be a likely fit given Tonti’s previous association with the marque. Those clip-ons were made by Menani. Pattern replica bars are available. Not certain if a real or pattern pair were used on the original Record bikes (can’t seen MENANI stamped on the perches in Jim’s pics, but not sure what that means) but I had been searching for a real pair and had no success in contacting Menani via website or otherwise over the past year+.
The same seller who provided the NOS pistons and used gas cap had this pair on ebay for quite a while, but they lacked the correct levers. When I contacted him, he told me Menani closed permanently & they had purchased their remaining inventory for resale. What he had listed was all there was and would ever be. So I bought the bars and will make more correct levers if needed.
They arrived a few minutes ago, so they’ll be installed shortly…. Very cool.
(https://i.ibb.co/RBvtrfH/D04-D18-B0-3728-4133-A871-79-E6-BEE0-F0-DC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RBvtrfH)
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Installed the clip-ons.. big whoop but it is another piece of the puzzle. Studying the pics with actual parts in hand, I’m not 100% confident that the original Record bike has Menani clip-ons. They may be pattern but my Corsa Record has Menani clip-ons…. The estimated wooden perches that I had attached to the plain bars in mock up were very close, so I think my headlight vs cables issues should work.
(https://i.ibb.co/3pq9jfj/5447677-D-79-A6-45-A7-A4-E3-235-EC088-B54-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3pq9jfj)
(https://i.ibb.co/W6Lnfpt/E7356-B15-A4-BF-4503-90-A6-15-AA4-ACC2-D2-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W6Lnfpt)
Jim’s fantastic pics (sure is nice to have a fellow obscure-detail-oriented bike person taking pics for you- thanks again, Jim!!) included better detail of the aluminum cover for the modified steel top triple tree plate. The aluminum one I have now is a discard from a friend who had already started building a similar Record tribute bike. Now I better understand why he wanted to make a new, more accurate accurate aluminum cover plate. So do I. But I’m also trying to mount the tach in a practical way, especially if/when I don’t have a full fairing installed. Now I’m thinking of utilizing the speedometer receiver in the top plate, with an appropriately fabricated aluminum cover plate. This shows a little detail of the modified OEM steel top plate and the aluminum cover.
(https://i.ibb.co/k9dkRLb/7-DFB5843-323-E-423-F-920-F-5-CDD4-C92-B319.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k9dkRLb)
One of the biggest revelation from Jim’s latest pics related to the tank. I had several profile pics but these provided very little in terms of overhead perspective. Now I have better information. The tank top is much narrower than I understood it to be, especially at the rear. So I marked the approx correct width on the rear on my current tank top. The rest of the top needs to be narrowed as well. My fat tank top will be replaced with a more appropriate narrowed tank top, so it should end up being much more skinny-sexy like I envisioned it to be….
(https://i.ibb.co/fq48L8g/12-BBF614-088-D-4-D0-C-980-C-9-A95-A0-B497-BD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fq48L8g)
the pics also clarified more about the method used to shape them. No English wheel or pneumatic planishing hammer. All aluminum was shaped using traditional Italian methods of hammer and iron plate table (or stump). Parts were not smoothed to perfection. All of the hammer marks from the shaping and smoothing process are still present. Very cool. Many parts, including the seat and at least some of the tank & fairing, were painted with a plain paint brush….
I chose this project specifically because the original bikes were spontaneous utilitarian bikes that were quickly finished in primer, not a cosmetically perfect machine requiring similar methods to be somewhat accurate. I can handle primer on a paint brush and anxious to try shaping like they did.
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Today I posted my first video on this project. Progress will probably be just as erratic and slow as before, but the plan is to document the progress going forward on video on my personal AC Button II channel & entitled “Moto Vecchio- Moto Guzzi V700 Corsa Record.” Video 1 is an introduction and explanation of the project and my intentions in the new venue. People seem to like moving pictures better and after Canuck750’s recent fantastic pictures from the MG Factory Museum, I’m really looking forward to reworking some parts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfMlopEZJ1o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfMlopEZJ1o)
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Great introduction Clint! I am really looking forward to watching your progress and learning from your methods, thanks for taking the time to share this.
Jim
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This is so cool. Thanks for sharing.
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This is so cool. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks, man. Glad you like what I’m doing. A major purpose for this effort is to show the true beginning g of the Guzzi Vtwin sport bikes. The V8 was an amazing machine, but little if any of the overall machine translated directly into the eventual Vwin sport bikes that have made Moto Guzzi so iconic for the past 50 years. The Record bikes did, even if they are not as illustrious and acclaimed.
This new video is a quick overview of the details of the bike, which I understand after years of obsessing but that others may not. Building this bike while it’s parked next to my V7 Sport, it’s easy to see how obviously some details translate between the bikes and then to later Lemans which are still the design standard for both Guzzi’s regular and sport bikes. When it comes to Moto Guzzi Vtwin sport bikes, it all began with the Record bikes.
https://youtu.be/DJv3-I7p5V0 (https://youtu.be/DJv3-I7p5V0)