trip update #1

[rodekyll]

Rode from John Day to Baker city, and then back through JD and up to Portland on 26.  I went to Portland on account of a shop said they could fix me up with a solution to my beat shocks.  Good run overall with atf temps running a nominal 110f (yea -- one hunndert an' ten degrees) with the highest spike happening @ 150f as I sawed the throttle on and off through a very hot mountain pass.  Engine temps ran a nominal 100f hotter than whatever the atf was.  Pressure in both engine and torque converter have been within specs.

It's slow off the line, but just keeps coming on.  I've made some 85mph passes and extended 70mph cruising.  I'm consistently clocking 30+mpg with the best fillup @ 33mpg.  Steering is a chore.  It rather than engine power limits my road speed.  The trike will accelerate up mountain passes as it pulls from 15 and 20mph hairpins.  But the steering is a lot of muscle work anywhere at or above posted curve speed.

I was due at the shop in Portland Tues Morning, and I was poised at the summit of Mt Hood on 26 to roll into town right on time.  That's when my flywheel parted company with the crankshaft and forward progress ceased a few hundred yards from the on ramp from Government Camp.

I knew within about half a second what just happened, so I scanned my gauges for data and had it shut down within a second or two of the failure.  My big regret was that things went sour as I was passing the best recovery spot (I already knew I wasn't going to play through the pain) as it happened, and there was an unusually busy and messy construction zone immediately ahead.  I made for the last 50 feet before the red cones started and parked it.

I called in to the shop and explained that I'd be late and why.  They had sympathy and concern, but nothing big enough to send for me.  WG member and ex-Alskan MMnorth did, and a few hours later he had me loaded up and headed down Mt. Hood.

We pulled into the shop and I went to the parts counter to check in.  The girl rang upstairs, but the owner was busy and couldn't come down.  Odd, I thought, because I thought it was him I'd seen in the downstairs hallway.  Alrighty.  I asked for a big block flywheel seal and flywheel bolts.  She said she didn't stock things for older guzzis.  I said big block guzzis are kinda current still, and she knowingly confided that there are soooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooo many differences between the models that things like main seals and crank bolts got very complicated, and she was very sure they had nothing for anything as old as me mine.  I tried to explain about big block standard parts, but she cut me off with a simpering "I don't have any of that stuff.  It is what it is."

Meanwhile the owner had paused just outside the parts door, ducked out of sight, and listened to the exchange.  I could see his reflection.  I went out in the hallway, identified myself, and asked if they really didn't have a standard guzzi inventory.  He gave me the same line of bullshit, as though I didn't understand simple English, or appreciate the mind-f***ing-boggling variety of big block main seals and flywheel bolts.  "Most of that stuff we get from the bearing house (he didn't offer any information on a local bearing house) or order down from MI in Seattle.  I can have someone order the parts for you."

I gave up on that and asked to see the shocks he said would fix me up.  "Hey," he said, "give me the spring rate and damping you want along with eyelet size and length and load specs and I'll check the catalog over the next few days and let you know if I come up with anything." 
"Um . . ." I said "remember me?  Alaska Trike"  John day?  On the road?  shocks?"

"I'm busy.  I'm not going to drop what I'm doing to help you.  I'll get to it this week."


So I drove 600 miles because this clown said he could fix me up. 

Now I'm broke down in Vancouver, on a scavenger hunt for tings like a dial indicator to re-center the torque converter, shocks, bolts, and tools to drill out six sheared flywheel bolts without removing the engine from the trike.  As it turns out, my on-board spares stash is more complete than the idiot store.  I had the seal in with my spare gaskets I bring along to ensure I won't need gaskets for anything.  It's still a good practice on account of I didn't need the seal, either.

As of tonight I have the damage repaired -- bolts successfully removed without damaging the crank, flywheel retorqued, and torque converter centered.  Then I read where another hydro has also shat its flywheel with the pictures looking identical to mine.  So that leaves me wondering what's up.

In the other topic (post separation anxiety) the OP speculates it's possibly an overtorque issue.  I torque grade 10.9 8x1.25 bolts to 30lb/ft.  In the other topic they're saying the Jackal book says 22lb.  I looked it up.  it DOES say 22lb.  But the standard guzzi torque table that I have always used says 28-32.  So that's a possible reason for all six heads to snap off, followed by all six shafts shearing at or below waterline. 

I had attributed the failure to the bad gas incident.  I thought the vibration of running one random pot for the distances I did simply vibrated to the point that it fatigued the bolts.  The fatigue along with the constant roll on/roll off throttle combined to hammer the bolts to death.

I still have the torque converter exposed.  I'll hate removing it to retorque, but if 29# (in deference to the popped bolt heads I backed it off one) is indeed wrong for the 1100 hydro, PLEASE TELL ME NOW!!!

[mrrick]

Yeah, I'll put my hand up..  Shirley no expert, but I think 29# is too much, especially if you're lubing them.
I posted some numbers in the other thread.
Following yr trip with interest.  Sorry about the doof with the special suspension deal.  Must been kind of a shock when you realized how it really was? 
Sorry, couldn't resist that... 

[Huzo]

How are you with the possible demons that can exist when you do something massive like you have, are you at ease with your decision or too early to tell ? Huzo

[oldbike54]

 Maybe you should have asked them "just exactly what year did MG build a trike?" and work from there 

 Dusty

[fotoguzzi]

Bummer RK, I have a dial indicator and a mounting bracket made for it to center the TC.. sounds like you don't need it right now?

[rodekyll]

I bolted one end of a craftsman wrench to the lug on the instrument and used vice grips on a bell housing stud to anchor it.  0.002 was the best I can do with the t/c vertical.

I asked Pete for an opinion on the torque.  No answer.


Yes, when the shop showed their colors I was not happy.  The end of the story is that I am here until next Wed waiting for shocks.  I am here until Wed because the shocks weren't ordered until Thurs.  That's when I found the trike/sidecar guy.  His shop is within sight of Bozo's, Inc.  The Bozo and the trike guy know each other.  Bozo never mentioned him -- just dicked me and tossed me off.  If he'd said something helpful on Tuesday, I'd have the shocks today.

No dealer bashing here.  I'm not naming it.  But you are warned.

[rocker59]

I called in to the shop and explained that I'd be late and why.  They had sympathy and concern, but nothing big enough to send for me.  WG member and ex-Alskan MMnorth did, and a few hours later he had me loaded up and headed down Mt. Hood.

We pulled into the shop and I went to the parts counter to check in.  The girl rang upstairs, but the owner was busy and couldn't come down.  Odd, I thought, because I thought it was him I'd seen in the downstairs hallway.  Alrighty.  I asked for a big block flywheel seal and flywheel bolts.  She said she didn't stock things for older guzzis.  I said big block guzzis are kinda current still, and she knowingly confided that there are soooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooo many differences between the models that things like main seals and crank bolts got very complicated, and she was very sure they had nothing for anything as old as me mine.  I tried to explain about big block standard parts, but she cut me off with a simpering "I don't have any of that stuff.  It is what it is."

Meanwhile the owner had paused just outside the parts door, ducked out of sight, and listened to the exchange.  I could see his reflection.  I went out in the hallway, identified myself, and asked if they really didn't have a standard guzzi inventory.  He gave me the same line of bullshit, as though I didn't understand simple English, or appreciate the mind-f***ing-boggling variety of big block main seals and flywheel bolts.  "Most of that stuff we get from the bearing house (he didn't offer any information on a local bearing house) or order down from MI in Seattle.  I can have someone order the parts for you."

I gave up on that and asked to see the shocks he said would fix me up.  "Hey," he said, "give me the spring rate and damping you want along with eyelet size and length and load specs and I'll check the catalog over the next few days and let you know if I come up with anything." 
"Um . . ." I said "remember me?  Alaska Trike"  John day?  On the road?  shocks?"

"I'm busy.  I'm not going to drop what I'm doing to help you.  I'll get to it this week."


So I drove 600 miles because this clown said he could fix me up. 
 

What a bunch of clueless fv<ks at that "dealership".   

You'd have been better off if they'd told you over the phone they wouldn't help you. 

Sadly, MOST motorcycle "dealerships" I've been in are about the same. 

Funny, but HD is about the only brand where you can walk in and expect to get what you need with very little drama.

[RinkRat II]

  RK,
    M8 10.9 Bolt torque is 24 Ft/lbs as per astm specs. 20% less if lubed. Hope this helps.
       
        Paul B

[rodekyll]

I called MI in seattle.  Jason confirms 30#.  Says all bb 6-bolt  8x1.25 bolts torque to 30#.  I asked for exceptions and he said that for our purposes there are none.  I asked about the book's 22# note and he said someone had probably flopped the nm scale with the lb/ft scale -- the book is wrong.  They have always and still are 30#.  Once again -- 22# is incorrect.

[Mike Tashjian]

I would take a look at ARP fasteners or another quality brand name bolt for your application. Their's is rated to torque at 24ft lbs lubed.  Order a set and keep them handy as I have a feeling 30ft lbs is a bit too tight. 24ft lbs is 32.5 NM where in lies the probable confusion.   Mike

[Moto]

I called MI in seattle.  Jason confirms 30#.  Says all bb 6-bolt  8x1.25 bolts torque to 30#.  I asked for exceptions and he said that for our purposes there are none.  I asked about the book's 22# note and he said someone had probably flopped the nm scale with the lb/ft scale -- the book is wrong.  They have always and still are 30#.  Once again -- 22# is incorrect.

Yes. To confirm, I opened up my original Guzzi factory V7 Sport/T3, etc., manual, which specifies "Torque 4.2 kgm" and "Loading 30 ft/lbs." 4.2 kgm is equivalent to 41.19 Newton-meters.

Jason knows his stuff, in my experience with him.

EDIT: And his remark about flipping the scale makes sense, too. The conversion factor between Newton-meters and foot pounds is .7376. If you apply that to the manual's spec of 30, thinking incorrectly that it is 30 Newton meters, you get the incorrect answer of 22.1 foot pounds.

Moto

[rodekyll]

that leaves us with the outstanding question of why six 10.9 bolts popped heads on two bikes over a few days.  In my case I was giving it to the bad gas incident.  But with two doing this I'm looking more at the bolts.  Matt and I both thought they drilled out easily for 10.9's.  Maybe too easily?

[Mike Tashjian]

Heat treated bolts may very well exhibit a softer center compared to the treated outside area. You would think a high quality bolt would do some damage to other parts as it failed.  Maybe you should test a few of the suspect bolts using a hardened nut in a vise.  Torque a few of them up and see how they fair.  Nothing like proving them before another ordeal on the road.  Mike

[Howard R]

Just for a little reassurance, I looked in the shop manual for a 1998 Centauro, same spec is in the shop manual for a 1996 Sport 1100, and they say the flywheel to crank bolts  (8x1.25) are 4-4.2 kg-m with medium loctite.  Conversion chart says that 30 ft-lb is 4.15 kg-m so another vote is in for some kind of typo in the later torque tables.

Happy triking!

Howard

[bmc5733946]

I have surveyed several torque charts available online, there is simply no consensus.  Varies form 18lbft to 30lbft and the conversion charts aren't any better.  My experience says, back off a touch, maybe 5lbft.  I would never back off an already torqued bolt to re-torque to a lower tension.  I can relate a story with little if any significance here.  In the early 70s a friend built a very high horsepower (300hp-400hp) Chevrolet 292ci inline 6 cylinder engine for drag racing.  The loc-tited and safety-wired flywheel bolts loosened repeatedly, virtually every run.  A local machine shop owner suggested a brass shim stock .006" spacer between crank and flywheel to allow some flex, using that shim allowed us to ignore the bolts for a whole season.  At racing season's end we checked the torque and were within 5% on average.  Drilling holes in shim stock is complicated business.

Brian

[rodekyll]

VW used a paper gasket for that cushion. 

Use a gasket hole cutter (hollow punch) to make the holes in shim stock.


I went with 30# and gel Loctite.  Just took it around the block.  It works again; drama over.  I'm hanging out hereabouts till Wednesday when my new shocks get in.  Dogsitting over the weekend for my hosts. 

[jkguzzi]

I was going to ask the name of the dealership in Portland but I see there is only one listed, Moto Guzzi Portland. Can I assume that's the one you visited?

[rodekyll]

I'm not allowed to say the moto guzzi Portland is the shop.  If I said that moto guzzi Portland is the shop then someone might accuse me of basing moto guzzi Portland, and that wouldn't fly on WG, on account of moto guzzi Portland is the only show in town.   


Besides, if you were a 20-somethng hipster on a triumph your experience at this unnamed shop would be different.

[Moto]

I'm not allowed to say the moto guzzi Portland is the shop.  If I said that moto guzzi Portland is the shop then someone might accuse me of basing moto guzzi Portland, and that wouldn't fly on WG, on account of moto guzzi Portland is the only show in town.   


Besides, if you were a 20-somethng hipster on a triumph your experience at this unnamed shop would be different.

The forum rule is "1. No un-justified personal or dealer attacks." I'd say your report was well-justified, and I wouldn't even call it much of an attack. I'm happy to have your report of your experience at Portland Moto Guzzi. Don't see a thing wrong with it.

[Chuck in Indiana]

The forum rule is "1. No un-justified personal or dealer attacks." I'd say your report was well-justified, and I wouldn't even call it much of an attack. I'm happy to have your report of your experience at Portland Moto Guzzi. Don't see a thing wrong with it.

 :1:

[rodekyll]

Looks like my low mpg was 30.5  and the high is 35.  This is using the good stuff as possible and not being trailered more than I ride.   

I'm doing urban stop/go tests today.  I'm trolling up and down arterials in mid 80s temps doing the stop/8min and go/2min every few blocks.  So far no overheating, which is super on account of I'm significantly low on hydraulic fluid, and I'm keeping up with the stop-to-low speed traffic, which is a hard thing to do with no gear reduction.

I'm not going to go on about the shop.

[jkguzzi]

I'm not allowed to say the moto guzzi Portland is the shop.  If I said that moto guzzi Portland is the shop then someone might accuse me of basing moto guzzi Portland, and that wouldn't fly on WG, on account of moto guzzi Portland is the only show in town.   


Besides, if you were a 20-somethng hipster on a triumph your experience at this unnamed shop would be different.

That's why I threw it out there. I don't ride any longer so it wouldn't be me but I wouldn't want one of the other board members to make a special trip there for that level of service. Is what you experienced even a level?

[rodekyll]

I experienced a salesman in the most absurd stretch of the term.  If I'd called n to the shop and they told me to come down and they'd see what I had and if they could help that would have one thing.  But I was face to face with the guy 600 miles from the store.  He saw mw, he saw wha I had, he let me tell my story, and then very confidently said he thought he had something in Portland that would fix me up.  He even said that if it wasn't for the part where we were so far away and the weekend, he'd already be on it.  AS it was, he had nobody there to call, and they were closed Monday, but if I wanted to backtrack the 600 miles instead of heading to Tri Cities for parts, he'd take care of me on Tuesday.

That's why I was a bit angry about the complete flip-flop of attitude and willingness to help when I got there.  It was as though he'd bet someone a quarter he could lure this rube 600 miles out of his way for nothing but rudeness, lies, and grief.  His job was to get my ass through his door, and his job was over when I appeared.

The store has no parts inventory for guzzis.  Don't go there expecting any.  this store has no knowledge of guzzis and complete apathy toward the marquee.  Don't ask them anything.  This store is a predatory sales den.  Don't believe anything they say.  This store has no appreciation or respect to the traveler on the road.  Don't expect help.  The store owner is a "Ted Cruse Christian" right down to the "sincerity."  Read the above.  'nuff said.

So . . . .  "store" -- if you're reading this, remember what I said to the parts bimbo when she softly confided in me that "It is what it is" -- Everybody gets a reference.  This is yours, and it certainly is what it is.  You dicked the wrong rube.

[Chuck in Indiana]

So. I take it you are not completely pleased with them? 

[rodekyll]

Cudda been better.   

[Muzz]

Hmmm, fairly major for an first breakdown RK. I was hoping any problems would be minor teething ones, not a colossal one like that.

I would have thought 10.9's would take 30 foot/lbs, although 8mm is not particularly large. They could well have sheared from being loose and the flywheel movement starts acting like a guillotine. The 10.9 relates to it's tensile strength, not it's hardness. Normal m/s bolts are rated about 4.8, the next step that we called "ht" was 8.8, then you had 10.9.

Not even sure if they do heat treat h.t. bolts. Could well be "soft" in the middle.

Bummer about the "dealer" stuffing you around like that. You would have to wonder what on earth the guy was thinking about. Certainly unaware of the value of word-of-mouth advertising, both positive and negative.

[lazlokovacs]

what really gets to me is the attitude of the dealer not even bothering to listen to a biker who obviously knows his stuff and is obviously in need.

I send my sincerest and heartiest bad vibes in the direction of this particular 'dealer'.

and RK, glad to hear you're getting back on the road.

[rodekyll]

Got the raked trees in the mail today and am taking a break havng installed the mechanical parts -- reconnecting the dash and related details yet to go.  I went with torco 20# fork oil and standard drop for the tubes.  Assuming shocks are in at the trike shop tomorrow I'll be headed to deep forest with a whole new suspension and steering.

[rodekyll]

except that the heads popped and THEN the shear occurred.  The bolts broke into three pieces.  The threads are all good -- no shear-type hammering.

[Muzz]

Does the Guzzi have a locating dowel fitted in the fly wheel setup?