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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kiwi_Roy on July 01, 2020, 01:29:18 AM
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I have been having a few issues with my one year old V7iii Specials charging system, it seems to be a little intermittent.
I say one year old but it was built in 2017 and spent the first couple of years in a crate, the Vin No ends in 000148
I ordered a Voltmeter for the dash so I can keep a better eye on it.
I pulled the regulator off so I could find all the connections, as it turns out they are Molex connectors right behind the steering head accessible by removing the tank, these are in good condition.
The alternator is a 3 phase unit, not the single phase it shows on the diagrams, wire colours are quite different
The regulator is model SH689JF by Shindengen I believe. That brand has a solid reputation.
The wire colours are Red/White for positive (2), Green for ground aka Chassis (2), 3 blacks for Alternator rotor not a yellow in sight.
I didn't find anything wrong in my exploration but I did add a wire at one point so I can monitor the grounding without removing the tank.
I will keep you updated
If you have a V7 of similar vintage with charging problems jump in otherwise please start your own post if you want to talk about other stuff.
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As I recall, you had taken the bike to a dealer. You were told the charging system was okay I think. So, did they replace the battery, and do you have the bike back in your hands?
Volt meter: I'll add some things I learned. I added the Kuryakin meter to one of my previous bikes. I tapped into the pilot light in the headlight bucket. Because of the voltage loss, it always read low. When I did a meter on my old EV, I put a relay on a switched wire and used that to turn on a direct feed from the battery. Regardless of what brand of meter I would use, that is the better option for accuracy.
Back to that Kuryakin unit. It's simple and works well but there things I do not like about it. The LED's are way too bright, to the point they distract you. There is a light sensor on it which I put a piece of black tape over. Even when it dims down a little, it is still too bright. If I were to use that one again, I would try to dim the LED's even more. Also, you don't just have the current LED lit up. All the LED's below the highest lit one is also lit up which lends to my first gripe of it. They use 2 red, 2 yellow, 2 green, and then back the same on the over voltage side. No actual numerical reading. What I'm saying is that although accurate, I would not get another one like it. It was too annoying in my line of vision.
John Henry
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I'm watching my bought in 2018, 2017 Mk3 for issues after reading about your issues. I'm using a voltmeter/USB plug in my accessory port to keep an eye on things - so far so good. Since the charging system allegedly checked out OK I still suspect your battery had a mechanical failure. Have you installed a new one?
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I had an issue one winter day, in late 2018, where I pulled up to my gate after a ride and the bike didn't want to start after I opened the gate.
I brought it to the dealer and they checked the the bike over and said they didn't find anything wrong. I haven't had the same issue since. I do run LED running lights on a relay with power direct from the battery, and SkeneDesign LED flashing brake lights that are jumpered into the taillight wires using Posi-Tap connectors.
I am nervous about adding heated grips or running my heated vest with this bike so if it is not warm enough to ride without heat I take the Harley out.
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I had an issue one winter day, in late 2018, where I pulled up to my gate after a ride and the bike didn't want to start after I opened the gate.
I brought it to the dealer and they checked the the bike over and said they didn't find anything wrong. I haven't had the same issue since. I do run LED running lights on a relay with power direct from the battery, and SkeneDesign LED flashing brake lights that are jumpered into the taillight wires using Posi-Tap connectors.
I am nervous about adding heated grips or running my heated vest with this bike so if it is not warm enough to ride without heat I take the Harley out.
Have you performed the startus interuptus fix already? It sounds like that is likely the problem.
On my Breva 750 I would have issues like that before the fix.
I also run an electric vest and grips on it and have not had the battery go down. I don't have any auxillary lights but still have a halogen headlight bulb and not a LED.
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As I recall, you had taken the bike to a dealer. You were told the charging system was okay I think. So, did they replace the battery, and do you have the bike back in your hands?
John Henry,
Yes, I reluctantly took it to the dealer, they charged the battery but found nothing wrong, No i bought a new battery from them a YTX14H-BS with 240CCA, same physical size as the YTX14-BS at 200CCA
I put the battery in service as per the instructions that came with it 1.4 Amps for 6 to 10 hours this is even printed right on the battery. I doubt there is anything wrong with the original battery but I'm just sick of it dying on me
They found the throttle body separated, one of the backfires must have done that.
I pulled the charging system apart yesterday and found the alternator is 3 phase not 2 and has what looks like a Shindengen regulator and all the connectors look in great shape, the only thing I never laid eyes on was where the regulator goes to ground but I will investigate that further.
I agree you don't need a bunch of LEDs distracting you, the ones I ordered just have a simple digital display, they were dirt cheap so I got two different colours. I'll post a link here if I can find it I think they are a couple of weeks away
I'm watching my bought in 2018, 2017 Mk3 for issues after reading about your issues. I'm using a voltmeter/USB plug in my accessory port to keep an eye on things - so far so good. Since the charging system allegedly checked out OK I still suspect your battery had a mechanical failure. Have you installed a new one?
Yes new higher capacity battery, see above Where is the accessory port, I haven't spotted that yet? I eliminated the battery by purchasing a new one. I run heated vest and gloves in the winter but I added one of Girbings bluetooth controllers after the first few flat battery incidents.
The most recent event was without heated gear, just the LED headlight and LED driving lights which add up tp less than the original Incandescent headlight, after the first fail to start I turned off the driving lights and rode about 3 miles to park on a hill.
I haven't had a flat battery yet but at times when I check The Voltage seems low after a good long run, can't put a number on it hence ordering some Voltmeters.
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Have you performed the startus interuptus fix already? It sounds like that is likely the problem.
On my Breva 750 I would have issues like that before the fix.
I also run an electric vest and grips on it and have not had the battery go down. I don't have any auxillary lights but still have a halogen headlight bulb and not a LED.
I am not aware of the "startus interuptus" fix. Fill me in.
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John Henry,
Yes, I reluctantly took it to the dealer, they charged the battery but found nothing wrong, No i bought a new battery from them a YTX14H-BS with 240CCA, same physical size as the YTX14-BS at 200CCA
I put the battery in service as per the instructions that came with it 1.4 Amps for 6 to 10 hours this is even printed right on the battery. I doubt there is anything wrong with the original battery but I'm just sick of it dying on me
They found the throttle body separated, one of the backfires must have done that.
I pulled the charging system apart yesterday and found the alternator is 3 phase not 2 and has what looks like a Shindengen regulator and all the connectors look in great shape, the only thing I never laid eyes on was where the regulator goes to ground but I will investigate that further.
I agree you don't need a bunch of LEDs distracting you, the ones I ordered just have a simple digital display, they were dirt cheap so I got two different colours. I'll post a link here if I can find it I think they are a couple of weeks awayYes, see above Where is the accessory port, I haven't spotted that yet?
I installed a 12v lighter socket / USB charging port on my handlebars to run accessories. Got one with an on/off switch to avoid parasitic drain. Here's the battery tester I ordered: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07422ZPT4/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A24NMQKAKNF7U6&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07422ZPT4/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A24NMQKAKNF7U6&psc=1)
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The V7 certainly has 'Startus Interuptus" potential, same double coils in the solenoid, I did take a current reading >30 Amps, I suspect its just too new at the moment, I will deal with it when it happens.
No one seems surprised that they changed to a 3 phase alternator after 20 years with single phase???
If it is a genuine Shindengen regulator I wouldn't worry about that either.
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Here are the components under discussion:
(https://i.ibb.co/XxCK0fj/Charging-Battery-Starter.png) (https://ibb.co/XxCK0fj)
19 = Starter 20 = Battery 22 = Fuse block 24 = Regulator 23 = Alternator
N = Black R/Bi = Red/White V = Green R = Red Vi = Purple
This setup will be trouble-free until the 12Ah FLA battery or the Molex-style connector and fuse terminals deteriorate. As they deteriorate there will be a variety of operating issues including poor throttle response and difficulty starting. Correction is as KR and Vagrant described: replace the battery and clean the terminals.
The permanent magnet alternator produces 268W (no rpm given). If you add heated accessories you should install a higher capacity SLA or LFP battery and a voltmeter. If you're handy with a crimp tool and heat gun, consider a more efficient MOSFET regulator (https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/).
WRT the possibility of "startus interruptus" the starter solenoid wire goes to Relay 6 Pin 3 then Pin 5 then to 15A Fuse C then to Ignition Switch 14 then to 30A Fuse F then to Battery 20. It should be easy to go from Relay 6 Pin 5 to Battery 20 via an inline fuse bypassing the ignition switch.
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Here are the components under discussion:
(https://i.ibb.co/XxCK0fj/Charging-Battery-Starter.png) (https://ibb.co/XxCK0fj)
19 = Starter 20 = Battery 22 = Fuse block 24 = Regulator 23 = Alternator
Bert,
Where did you find that diagram, thanks for posting it
I was looking for one earlier. It shows the 3 phase alternator I found, other schematics show a single phase. The regulator on my bike looks like it may be a Shindengen, it has their symbol on it with part No SH689JF
The only connection I have been unable to verify is where the two green wires connect to chassis after they leave the connector as two blacks.
its such a simple circuit, what could possibly go wrong Luigi?
I updated Bert's drawing with my progress so far
(https://i.ibb.co/TMpzH07/DSCN0257.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GhH9XP)
Note: although I wasn't working on the starter today I added the second coil as we briefly discussed "Startus Interuptus", the second high current coil is behind that ailment.
I was unable to find the point where the alternator connects to the chassis, I have to be suspicious of that connection until I prove its ok
The regulator is the casting below the horns, can you verify the model No, on mine its SH689JF with back to back diode symbol in a circle (>| |<) that's the Shindengen logo, surely Piaggio wouldn't buy a Chinese knock off.
BTW, I think the ECU on this bike is incorporated into the throttle body, Ive been wrong before.
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I bought the schematic PDF from AF1 https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=88863&sku=DL-2Q000297WD-Stone&description=OEM+Aprilia+Wiring+Diagram+Moto+Guzzi+V7+III Please note the schematics are model specific -- this link is for a V7 III Stone.
I have printed chassis, engine and parts manuals which, per MG intent, do not have readable schematics. Fine by me because I prefer PDFs for schematics because they can be resized, etc.
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It sounds like you were able to dig the connector out from the top of the steering head behind the gas tank. Mine is really buried in there and long needle nose wouldn't let me grab them. any trick or am I just retarded?
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KR -- thanks for annotating diagram. I forgot about MG's two stage solenoid. According to the MG service manual, your alternator resistances are spot on.
Yes the ECU is integrated with the TB. It is a Magneti Marelli MIU G3. According to Beetle, it was originally created for a single cylinder engine. A lawn mower or something like that. Then MG adapted it to a single TB engine (ie 1TB). As Beetle said this is really a cheapo design. I think we need to remember is the Stone is MG's low-end model and the V7 is the low-end series. You'd be surprised how many "extraneous" functions are performed by that ECU.
Shindengen is a respected high quality OEM. I haven't had any luck finding the specifications for the SH689JF. I think its a SH689xx with cable harness tailored for the V7.
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The V7 certainly has 'Startus Interuptus" potential, same double coils in the solenoid, I did take a current reading >30 Amps, I suspect its just too new at the moment, I will deal with it when it happens.
No one seems surprised that they changed to a 3 phase alternator after 20 years with single phase???
If it is a genuine Shindengen regulator I wouldn't worry about that either.
My 2016 MKII also has the 3 phase alternator with Shindegen regulator. On the MKII, you can reach in above the regulator and pull out the connector. I've had a look at the connector a couple of times, and all seems ok (no signs of overheating). I'd be surprised if it was the Shindegen as they are solid.
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It sounds like you were able to dig the connector out from the top of the steering head behind the gas tank. Mine is really buried in there and long needle nose wouldn't let me grab them. any trick or am I just retarded?
No trick, as you say its buried, I removed the tank, the alternator cable is quite long but the regulator cables barely make it, I removed it completely so I could examine the connections. Behind the steering head is quite a dry spot but no good for troubleshooting.
Before I put them back I greased the contacts with Vaseline to prevent future corrosion and tapped onto one of the ground wires so I can monitor the ground point I was unable to find, should stay at zero Volts.
My 2016 MKII also has the 3 phase alternator with Shindegen regulator. On the MKII, you can reach in above the regulator and pull out the connector. I've had a look at the connector a couple of times, and all seems ok (no signs of overheating). I'd be surprised if it was the Shindegen as they are solid.
I agree 100% but is it a true Shindengen? We are warned there's knock offs all over the internet. I'm giving Piaggio the benefit of the doubt for now and focusing on the ground connection.
KR -- thanks for annotating diagram. I forgot about MG's two stage solenoid. According to the MG service manual, your alternator resistances are spot on.
Yes the ECU is integrated with the TB. It is a Magneti Marelli MIU G3. According to Beetle, it was originally created for a single cylinder engine. A lawn mower or something like that. Then MG adapted it to a single TB engine (ie 1TB). As Beetle said this is really a cheapo design. I think we need to remember is the Stone is MG's low-end model and the V7 is the low-end series. You'd be surprised how many "extraneous" functions are performed by that ECU.
Shindengen is a respected high quality OEM. I haven't had any luck finding the specifications for the SH689JF. I think its a SH689xx with cable harness tailored for the V7.
Bert,
That makes sense, I couldn't find anything on SH689 but it seems to be used in scooters and such, the only other marking is 7-227S perhaps a date code, no country of origin that I could see.
I purchased the diagram from AF1 for the Special, only $4 for a download, I will take the file to a printing place to see if I can get a decent size printout. Did you purchase the manual from AF1, in printed or file download format?
Does your manual shed any light on where the regulator might be grounded?
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I think I am narrowing it down, I was doing a few errands around town this morning, when I got back thought I'd check the Voltage 11.9 WTF , 11.5 after a start.
BTW I check the Voltage at the battery tender cable, thats connected directly to the battery terminals.
I then measured the wire I connected to the regulator ground 250 mV 50 - 70mV to chassis, thats not right, I'm more convinced than ever now its a bad ground on the regulator.
If the ground point is negative 250 mV 50 - 70 mV thats automatically 50 - 70 mV of the charge Voltage, I suspect its worse at times.
I could just tie into the wires on either side of the 4 way connector and ground them to the engine but I would really like to find the actual grounding point. Anybody?
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are the mounting bolts just supposed to be doing the job? If so maybe a jumper wire right to the battery?
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are the mounting bolts just supposed to be doing the job? If so maybe a jumper wire right to the battery?
I don't think the mounting bolts are acting as a ground, I confirmed that today not like the old Ducati Energia, this regulator has two dedicated ground wires (green) turning to black on the other side of connector.
If you look at the partial diagram Bert posted in Reply #10 you will see, no ground shown to case, besides the mounting is quite sturdy.
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As an aside, I put a Battery Tender on both bikes last fall. They are SUPPOSED to go into a float mode so as not to overcharge the battery. I also pull the main fuse to eliminate parasitic draw. This Spring, I pulled the chargers off only to discover a totally dead battery on the Eldo (1400) So dead it would not take any charge at all. The battery I put in the Stelvio last Fall shortly after Memorial Day, carried a lower voltage than I expected. Certainly lower than when I winterized it. It has come back with use so all is well there. I had to install a new battery in the 1400.
For evermore, I will monitor charging and keep it to short intermittent periods rather than the forget it attitude that I [mistakenly] had.
A battery is a shock absorber of an electrical system. It's not just the thing that starts stuff.
John Henry
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KR -- I purchased printed manuals -- chassis, engine, parts -- on eBay. Here's the chassis manual: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264755727883?ViewItem=&vxp=mtr&item=264755727883 I'm pretty sure these folks run a print-on-demand service because when you buy the manual the listing disappears and comes back as relisted. Print and binding quality are satisfactory.
WRT to grounding of the regulator heat sink, I'm pretty sure if you measured continuity between any of the seven wires and the heat sink it would be an open circuit. The SCRs (you don't get MOSFETs with a V7) are in a potted circuit on an insulated mount that dissipates into the heat sink.
(https://i.ibb.co/rpq4D2w/Regulator-Bottom.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rpq4D2w)
Ever since semiconductors were used in automotive electronics, manufacturers stopped using the chassis as a ground return to the battery and instead collected grounds at selected points to avoid ground loops and reduce corrosion problems. And now not just electronics but also electrics like headlights, turn signals, and even the horn. Back in the good old days, the headlight bulb ground circuit was through the steering head bearings leading to their pitting. But not too much because lighting was so weak and you didn't notice because handling was so bad.
So KR I'm troubled by your voltage readings. Maybe at sometime in your travails you attained/sustained a partial alternator or regulator failure. I reread the manual (pages 106-109) and at 0.7 ohms your alternator resistance values are high; they should be around 0.2 ohms after subtracting any tester lead resistance. The manual also has a procedure to measure alternator phase-to-phase voltage:
2,000rpm 40-45Vrms 4,000rpm 82-87Vrms 6,000rpm 132-138Vrms
If the alternator tests okay, start the engine, wait one minute and measure the battery voltage from 3,000-5,000rpm. It should always be between 13-15Vdc.
WRT to FLA and SLA batteries self-discharging during winter storage, that's a feature of their chemistry. Rather than trickle charging you might want to use a LFP battery and disconnect the ground terminal before storage. LFPs have very low self-discharge rates that should be good for six months if winter.
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Bert,
I revised the voltage drop from green wire to chassis, I strapped my Fluke to the bars, the Voltage drop was 50 - 70 mV, I still think thats on the high side (Low actually the green wire is going negative in relation to chassis)
The 0.7 Ohms was measured with a Fluke 87, I'll stand by that reading, yes automatically take into account lead resistance, the only way I could get any more accurate would be a drop test.
Given that you have to take the tank off to get at the connections I would have to tap into each lead, may do that yet.
I was doing some further checks when the battery went so flat it started chattering the relays
Gave it a partial recharge to 12.31 V, rode 5 km headlight only and it was down to 12.22, at times during the ride I saw 11.9
Checked my headlight drain 1.7 Amps (LED) With both Headlight and driving lights 4.16 Amps (=50 Watts), the OEM headlight was 55/60 Watts.
I can't understand how the alternator could go from 0.2 to 0.7 Ohms, I will ask the dealer to verify that.
Update:
I came upon this document, it might help pin down what type of three phase unit we are looking at using a simple diode tester.
https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/
Update:
I will pull the reg off again and see what I can figure out with a diode tester
I have told the dealer I want another regulator to try under warranty, wish me luck lol
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KR -- I think we've moved from understanding the V7 III charging system to repairing your charging system. Hopefully it's a battery or regulator or even a wiring problem. Replacing the alternator will not be easy. My V7 is still in OH so I can't help with comparisons.
WRT LED headlight, charging systems have a load range. If the load is too small, the regulator-alternator relationship is stressed. For the open-type regulators, the effect is excessively high alternator voltages and for short-type regulators, the effect is excessively high heatsink temperatures or SCR currents. If the load is too high, the entire electrical system is stressed when the voltage drops out of range and the battery is drained.
I too am going to install an LED headlight along with heated grips and vest so I will be at both ends of the load range. That's why I'm replacing the MG's SCR regulator with an ESR MOSFET regulator (specifically the ESR439 -- some assembly required :smiley:) after my 900 mile service. I'm also replacing the MG battery with the largest MotoBatt that will fit.
If you replace your regulator, consider the ESR531 (https://www.electrosport.com/products/esr531-regulator-rectifier-honda-super-duty?_pos=1&_sid=4a7498df5&_ss=r). It is compatible with a variety of MG models and is sold by GTM who can advise you on V7 III compatibility. The ESR531 is the "super duty" version of the ESR530 I cited before.
Best wishes restoring your charging system. I hope it's not the alternator.
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I put a Kuryakyn led voltmeter on my V7III, near the key (attached thru a switched plug by the battery, a clean installation). It is a bit too bright, but I don't find it distracting as it is normally out of my line of sight. Mostly, I like knowing what the charging system is doing at a glance. I will put something over the light sensor to dim the display--good idea ZZ, or maybe find a piece of tinted plastic or something to cover all of the LEDs.
Rich A
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If you replace your regulator, consider the ESR531 (https://www.electrosport.com/products/esr531-regulator-rectifier-honda-super-duty?_pos=1&_sid=4a7498df5&_ss=r). It is compatible with a variety of MG models and is sold by GTM who can advise you on V7 III compatibility. The ESR531 is the "super duty" version of the ESR530 I cited before.
Best wishes restoring your charging system. I hope it's not the alternator.
Bert,
So do I, I asked the dealer to verify the resistance phase to phase, you seemed to think 0.7 was ok then revised it to 0.2?
Electrosport are a California company but their regulators are built in China, I have used them in the past, worked ok.
The regulator on the bike comes from who knows where, I'd like to think it's a Shindengen even if it's not made in Japan
I will do a diode test on it today and maybe a bench check with a battery.
Reporting back
The regulator tests out as one of these, a copy pasted from the Shindengen document
Three-Phase Short Regulator/Rectifier
The ACG output is rectified to charge batteries. When the battery voltage is high, these regulators/rectifiers short the ACG output and control the charging.
https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/files/images/p_reg_06.jpg
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It sounds like you were able to dig the connector out from the top of the steering head behind the gas tank. Mine is really buried in there and long needle nose wouldn't let me grab them. any trick or am I just retarded?
I had to unbolt the front ignition coil and move it out of the way, that frees up a lot of space.
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KR -- that's what I expected. With the MOSFET regulators being short-type plus the stories of regulators getting hot that pretty much points to MG's SCR regulators being short-type. On the other hand at 268W capacity (and it charges the battery via a 30amp fuse), that regulator being exposed to open air isn't going to get very hot.
So your connector and fuse terminals look good and you have a new battery yet aren't getting the expected charging voltages.
Two possibilities:
1. One or more phases of the alternator have failed.
2. One or more diodes (not the shorting SCRs, a failed rectifying diode would be equivalent to a failed alternator phase) of the regulator have failed.
In reply #20 I provided the alternator voltages. A pain to measure although if the connectors use standard 0.25" spade terminals it should be easy to make jumper/tap cables.
BTW if you could post pictures of the 3-pin and 4-pin connectors that would be great because I want to know which ESR connector kits to order with the ESR439. I'm expecting 0.25" spade terminals but would like to be sure. Thanks.
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Bert,
Yes they are SCR short type, I am able to put it through its paces on the bench I tested all the diodes with the diode test on my Fluke, all 6 ok.
I'm still pinning my hopes on a bad ground connection, that would cause the SCRs to fire early.
Tomorrow I will run new ground wires from the 4 pin connector
The SCRs fire to short the coils at about 15.7 Volts between phases but that would be about 14.3 across the battery with the diode bias Voltage.
(https://i.ibb.co/9c9r8c8/DSCN0260.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7jJ1YjY)
The black wire you see was my temporary connection to the ground
(https://i.ibb.co/2hf1NtN/DSCN0261.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YQqFZkZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/nQffCzg/DSCN0262.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wpCCsM0)
(https://i.ibb.co/kQB0KP1/DSCN0263.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jgfGhjR)
(https://i.ibb.co/SVyQLWp/DSCN0269.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vLqstg8)
The red wires will allow me to measure the phase to phase Voltage.
The pins are wider than a standard spade connector.
(https://i.ibb.co/SxgJV3J/DSCN0270.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W3XsB2s)
(https://i.ibb.co/xLZvJLY/DSCN0271.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rb8nzbN)
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KR -- dang that AC connector ain't standard -- neither terminals nor shell. I now doubt the ESR New Model (aka ElectroSports ESR531) is plug compatible although sending your connector photo to either of them might prove me wrong.
The DC connector is standard -- terminals and shell.
I considered possible Shindengen wiring faults causing low DC voltage but all would cause connector overheating or open circuits.
The Shindengen heatsink has more fins and appears larger than the ElectroSport and Roadster Cycle alternatives. As best I can tell, the double diode is one of Shindengen's trademarked logos. They have a Beware of Counterfeit webpage.
At this point, I'm thinking I'll delay adding the heated grips and vest controller until colder temperatures and address regulator and battery improvements then. In the meantime I will add a Koso voltmeter (probably BA024B50) when the motorcycle arrives (hopefully this month).
Thanks for sharing.
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I made a major improvement today
(https://i.ibb.co/XxCK0fj/Charging-Battery-Starter.png) (https://ibb.co/XxCK0fj)
Referring to the Piaggio diagram Bert posted I had measured the wire from the two left terminals of connector (1) to chassis and found it to be around 0.3 Ohms, I was unable to find the point where it connected to the chassis but today I was looking again and saw the main ground lug right at the top of the gearbox.
It looked like a fat cable going there but on stripping back the insulation it turned out to be about 6 wires of various sizes including the main battery ground crimped together in one large lug, I'm still suspicious that the two wires from connector (1) go there directly 0.3 Ohms is too high for the distance between these two points. It's impossible to follow the wires, they disappear into a plastic box that runs along the frame rails.
Really the diagram should show the wires connecting together if they do, its sloppy just to show them going to chassis like that. I suspect some of the other grounds shown on the schematic also terminate at this point e.g. ECU, Fuel Pump, Dash maybe.
I believe there was a tiny amount of corrosion under the lug where it made contact with the Alloy casting so I scraped it as best I could and applied some of my favourite corrosion inhibiter.
Because it's so time consuming to get at the connectors behind the steering head I ran a #16 wire from each of the two terminals all the way back to the battery.
Anyway to cut a long story short I started the bike and very quickly the battery was approaching 14 Volts whereas before it would have been anywhere from 12 - 13 Volts. A quick burn up the motorway with my meter attached to the bars and it approached 14.5 Volts, at lower revs its sitting around 13.
I should be happy and call it a day, right?
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Wrong, this wiring has me pissed off, I very nearly lost the bike in flames caused by a low battery and I'm still pursuing an imbalance in the alternator AC Voltages.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=106383.0
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the new Guzzi regulator for my V7III came in at 5 pm last night. I stuck it on (thanks for the coil removal tip). I had cleaned up the ground on the tranny but I had also done that last year so I doubt it had any effect. I now am at 14.4 volts from about 1600 RPM up.
Very happy camper but I won't get to ride it for a while as I leave this am for a week up the blue ridge on the V85.
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the new Guzzi regulator for my V7III came in at 5 pm last night. I stuck it on (thanks for the coil removal tip). I had cleaned up the ground on the tranny but I had also done that last year so I doubt it had any effect. I now am at 14.4 volts from about 1600 RPM up.
Very happy camper but I won't get to ride it for a while as I leave this am for a week up the blue ridge on the V85.
Be sure to put something greasy on there to stop electrolysis, mine looked like it had a tiny amount of corrosion between the lug and casting, I sweated the wires into the lug for good measure, perhaps a few drops of oil to wick into the wires would be another way to keep the copper pristine.
I tried backing the stud out but it must have some super thread locker holding it.
I look forward to your ride report on the V85
I sent you a PM
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I carried out the testing as per the Workshop manual ELE SYS 106 to 109.
The alternator stator failed the Voltage test but seemed ok with the short circuit current test however one phase was very low plugged back in 1, 6.5, 6.5 Amps at idle.
We'll see how good the warranty is, its just over 1 year of 2. Wish me luck!
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Time I updated this thread,
I decided to have a look at the alternator, I didn't quite get it all apart but I had a good squiz inside.
At least 2 possibly 3 coils are burnt out. I couldn't get very good pictures because they were at an awkward angle
(https://i.ibb.co/RpP6R2Q/DSCN0288.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qM9gTBm)
You can see the coils on the opposite side.
The spinning magnet, on the outside for this model
(https://i.ibb.co/zbN42mp/DSCN0287.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hHCmdgb)
While i was in there took a picture of the oil pump hidden below the chain sprocket
(https://i.ibb.co/p3MvJNj/DSCN0285.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sFNvyc9)
And the chain tensioner.
(https://i.ibb.co/r4XXqnZ/DSCN0286.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hn99Rmr)
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Wow, I guess you found the trouble, or the source of the trouble.
As an aside, I am working on getting a volt meter for my III. Once I get everything, I'll set up a relay to switch it on and off with the key but provide a reading directly off the battery.
John Henry
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Looking at the back of the stator where it mounts to the cover, I'm thinking one or two of the phase wires were pinched by the clamp or at the mounting face.
(https://i.ibb.co/PQL6Dyf/Stator-Rear-View.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PQL6Dyf)
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When i had the gas tank off fishing out wires i took every connector on the bike apart and sprayed with deoxit and then Vaselined them.
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Is that how they ship them, Very interesting.
They must pull the contacts to get the cable through the hole in the cover.
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KR -- the hole in the cover should be a slotted opening. As you can see in the picture, the wires are vulcanized to the grommet. There are more pictures here: https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429
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Okay we've all promised to add a voltmeter to our V7 IIIs. So what voltmeter should we add and where should it go? These are linked decisions as the form of the meter relates to its location. I'm partial to Koso so here are some of my candidates:
Koso BA067R00 Voltmeter
(https://i.ibb.co/jVN8FGq/Koso-BA067-R00.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jVN8FGq)
Koso BA024B50 Voltmeter/Clock
(https://i.ibb.co/vzn8NZ1/Koso-BA024-B50.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vzn8NZ1)
Koso BA024B50 Voltmeter/30amp Ammeter
(https://i.ibb.co/t8rV5HY/Koso-BA003190.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t8rV5HY)
Koso BE006S00 Mounting Bracket
(https://i.ibb.co/FVcZKf8/Koso-BE006-S00.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FVcZKf8)
And a popular alternative
(https://i.ibb.co/KWmCKWh/61-GA6utc56-L-AC-SL1003.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KWmCKWh)
Mounting locations can be the mirrors (BA067R00) or handlebars (Mini 3):
(https://i.ibb.co/3yH8qVM/Stone-Mirrors-and-Handlebars.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3yH8qVM)
or to the right of the speedometer:
(https://i.ibb.co/8mD47kT/Stone-Dash-Front.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8mD47kT)
I'm kinda favoring the Koso BA024B50 Voltmeter/30amp Ammeter on the Koso BE006S00 Mounting Bracket. As you recall from this diagram inserting it in the battery charge/discharge circuit would be easy, at least electrically.
(https://i.ibb.co/jr37pX9/Ammeter-Shunt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jr37pX9)
Okay what are your thoughts and plans?
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I would begin by saying having a volt meter is something I have added to all my bikes if it didn't come built in. I have used the Kuryakin unit in the past. It works well, is compact, but the LED's are too bright and that bugs me. I also used the Auto Meter Cobalt gauge in the past. Worked great, ultra accurate. Same as the Pro Cycle I have ordered but not meant to be exposed. Never had a problem with it though. The Pro Cycle version is evidently sealed for being outside on a bike.
I'm still waiting on everything to arrive, but this is what I ordered:
AutoMeter Pro-Cycle Analog Gauges 19692 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATM-19692
AutoMeter Gauge Mounting Cups 2204 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATM-2204
For possible mounting:
Slip Streamer 7/8 in.Handlebar Clamps
https://www.denniskirk.com/slip-streamer/7-8-in-handlebar-clamps-for-slipstreamer-windshields-7-8inch.p27808.prd/27808.sku
They come in pairs, so I will have a spare.
Previously when I used the Auto Meter, I used the Slip Streamer clamp and put it on the handlebar. That will actually be my second choice in this case. What I would like is to have it right between the tach and speedometer, along the line of the old Guzzi dash on a Cal II and others, but I don't know if I can devise a bracket to make that work or not. Once I get everything, I can size it up and go from there. The Auto Meter is a 2 1/16 inch gauge so it is larger than other options. Having said that, they are easy to read day or night with LED backlighting. When I did them in the past, I simply tied the light power and the gauge power wires together, fed through a relay so it will be switched with the ignition, and of course will be fused.
John Henry
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KR -- the hole in the cover should be a slotted opening. As you can see in the picture, the wires are vulcanized to the grommet. There are more pictures here: https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429
Ah now I see, its kind of hard to see on the bike, that makes perfect sense.
I wish i'd seen that add a week ago I would have just ordered it.
Where do you think they are made, please don't say China.
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As to the Voltmeter I had pretty much decided to connect it to the city light (43) or GPS plug (11) They are both from the same circuit Lighting fuse (B) That should be lightly loaded until the motor starts but give you Voltage while the starter is turning.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
I'm not so concerned with the actual exact battery Voltage, its all relative.
As to the Ammeter, I hook my Fluke in place of the 30 Amp fuse that's all the current in and out of the battery if you don't count starting, all you really need to know while riding.
As to the Voltmeter, I'm really cheap, I bought 6 red ones and 6 green ones. I figure I can tweak them for accuracy if need be and give some away as well.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/223807697366 No bar graphs, I hate that in a meter, they are on a slow boat thought, by the time they arrive I will wonder what I ordered those for lol
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A couple things. First, #11 as you noted on the diagram you linked to is a feed wire for the Lambda probe. I don't see any GPS plug anyplace. If there is one on a V7III, I would be interested to know where it is.
Next, and more importantly, the reason I started connecting the volt meter to the battery using a relay was to eliminated the voltage drop that I had experienced when I tied into the pilot light. On the used EV that I had bought, the PO had slathered dielectric grease all over every connector and I discovered the battery was overcharging constantly as a result. Had I been reading the voltage at the pilot, I would not have seen that. Of course you can connect it there and look at its reading while taking a reading at the battery with a VOM. In that case, I had quite a discrepancy between the front of the bike and the battery. (After cleaning all that grease off the connectors, I was able to get a 1.5 drop at the battery. It had been constantly overcharging. I was able to get it down to a more normal reading.)
If you really want accuracy, you should connect the volt meter to the battery and use a switched circuit to power a relay. Roy, you have been pretty particular up to now. are you really going to cut this corner?
John Henry
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A couple things. First, #11 as you noted on the diagram you linked to is a feed wire for the Lambda probe. I don't see any GPS plug anyplace. If there is one on a V7III, I would be interested to know where it is.
Next, and more importantly, the reason I started connecting the volt meter to the battery using a relay was to eliminated the voltage drop that I had experienced when I tied into the pilot light. On the used EV that I had bought, the PO had slathered dielectric grease all over every connector and I discovered the battery was overcharging constantly as a result. Had I been reading the voltage at the pilot, I would not have seen that. Of course you can connect it there and look at its reading while taking a reading at the battery with a VOM. In that case, I had quite a discrepancy between the front of the bike and the battery. (After cleaning all that grease off the connectors, I was able to get a 1.5 drop at the battery. It had been constantly overcharging. I was able to get it down to a more normal reading.)
If you really want accuracy, you should connect the volt meter to the battery and use a switched circuit to power a relay. Roy, you have been pretty particular up to now. are you really going to cut this corner?
John Henry
No you must be looking at a different drawing, No 11 on the one I posted is definitely the GPS plug, I know I haven't found it either, perhaps another owner is using it.
When you first turn the key On the headlight is Off so there should be very little Voltage drop.
The EV is a different animal it relies on a really flakey connection through the headlight relay for the critical task of sensing the battery Voltage, my VII Sport was much worse it also went through the normally closed Start relay contact as well I finally gave up on that whole mess and fitted an after market permanently connected regulator similar to the one V7 has.
I have never used Dielectric Grease, why would I Vaseline does everything I need, I take note of horror stories like yours.
I hear you on using a relay but then you need a fuse and wiring along under the tank etc etc I bought the subject up to start a discussion.
Don't get me wrong the meter I put on my bike will need to compere favourably to my Fluke 87, I poke that in the battery tender socket but i'm not about to walk away and leave my $400 meter for some low life to walk off with.
Cheers.
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The reference I made to the #11 is from the link you provided on your thread.
As for the EV, I was giving a for instance. I don't use dielectric grease either and discourage its use. Vaseline or a product called terminal grease is what I prefer.
Now you have my attention though. If you're suggesting there would minimum loss by using the pilot light compared to either the EV I made reference to or the '03 LeMans I had, I have to agree that is a much easier solution that the relay. Regardless of where I connect things, I use a fuse where appropriate. The gauge I have ordered has a fuse in its wiring so that will be instated regardless of where I tap in.
I wouldn't carry my good meter around either. Since I have already made a connection to the pilot for my GPS, I guess I could easily reference that connection against the battery. As long as there is no great disparity, then there you go.
You may have just made my life easier. :bow:
John Henry
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In my picture reply No 33 look how all these coil leads are tangled around each other, you would think that wouldn't be good, its certainly not how it would have been done years ago.
I don't know what diagram you are referring to so I will reference it again. http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif this one.
For something like this I often just pinch a piece of sheetmetal between the handlebar clamps, your meter is too big of course.
I had an old California II once, the Voltmeter would often tell you about the state of electrical health by how good a reading it got from the battery
You are several weeks ahead of me, by the time I get to put my meter on you will have it all worked out LOL
I still have to lay my hands on a new winding, mine should be replaced under warranty since the bike is only a year old.
Roy
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Okay, I think this is the V7III diagram:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_v7-iii-e4-stone.pdf
The pilot light is identified as #43 in the diagram. Several other power wires tap into this wire as it makes its way to the battery.
11 LAMBDA PROBE 1 (LH) (+) is the identifier for this diagram as well. In reality, it is neither her nor there. We know where to locate the daytime running light. (pilot light) :laugh:
I'll still whip my meter on it, and if it compares favorably, I'll use that and save some work. Since I have very little miles thus far on the bike, I wouldn't expect a huge disparity.
John Henry
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<snip> your meter is too big of course.<snip>
Roy
:grin: True
OTOH, it will be easy to see, matches the factory clocks in appearance, won't be annoying to look at (IMHO), and is very accurate based on my personal experience.
Once I get it figured out on the bike, I'll post a pic.
John Henry
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KR -- the hole in the cover should be a slotted opening. As you can see in the picture, the wires are vulcanized to the grommet. There are more pictures here: https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429
I hate how they do that with the grommet. I had an oil leak from there on my V7ii, and had to remove the cover and seal around it with some black gasket sealer.
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As I advised KR via PM, the engine manual says "apply a great amount of threebond on the cable grommet"; "Check that plentiful threebond leaks out and covers all space between the seat of the cover and the cable grommet"; and "Apply another layer of threebond over the cable grommet." Threebond is "A synthetic rubber, visco-elastic sealer that is semi-drying." You also need a new cover gasket -- no dressing mentioned although I'm partial to Hylomar.
ZZ -- I went down the Autometer path because I too like those full-scale digital stepper gauges. But I will have a Garmin zumo 660 navigator and Garmin VIRB Elite action camera mounted up front so things were getting crowded and I looked for something smaller. Finding the Koso voltmeter/ammeter combination has almost sealed the deal for me. So Yes send pictures. I think it's going look great.
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Well, I finally drove my III today. Pisssed as I can get. 14.4 volts connected right to the battery when I left. 2 miles later it'd at 12.6. I stop for gas, restart and 12.6, then it goes to 13.5 then back to 12.6 and downhill from there. so obviously it's not the regulator on mine either. The Marieta Ga. dealer is putting it on pads tomorrow for me.
Somewhere somebody mentioned a software update that fixes the charging system??? any info? the dealer hasn't heard of it. Kiwi where are you at with yours?
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There's very few data points but I'm seeing a pattern: old battery weakens; get a few hard-to-starts; external charge battery; more hard starts; a long highway ride; one or more alternator phases are lost.
I don't know if this is a regulator problem (KR's photo showed no external signs of overheating).
So Vagrant I think your next step is to remove the alternator cover and examine the stator as KR did.
I was going to wait for the 900 mile service before installing the Koso voltmeter/ammeter yet but will purchase it tonight. You guys have convinced me. Now I need my V7 III Rosso Grosso.
PS ain't no software in the charging circuit.
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Got all the pieces for the install. I have figured out a way to mount it top center between the factory clocks. It's simple, but I believe I will have the desired finished look and function. Waiting on some Permatex to cure at the moment. Might be done tomorrow but not sure.
Once I know it works out, I'll post pics with a description of what I have done.
John Henry
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I went to the dealer early this week and showed them the pictures, I believe he has ordered the new stator, two weeks delivery from somewhere in the states.
In the meantime I'm running on battery tender each night assisted by some charging.
Well, I finally drove my III today. Pisssed as I can get. 14.4 volts connected right to the battery when I left. 2 miles later it'd at 12.6. I stop for gas, restart and 12.6, then it goes to 13.5 then back to 12.6 and downhill from there. so obviously it's not the regulator on mine either. The Marieta Ga. dealer is putting it on pads tomorrow for me.
Somewhere somebody mentioned a software update that fixes the charging system??? any info? the dealer hasn't heard of it. Kiwi where are you at with yours?
The Winding fault on mine showed up as a Voltage imbalance with the coils open circuit, you can re-route the 3 pin cable out the front where its easy to reach and you can measure it.
At Idle I get 30, 14.2 and 17.4 Volts at idle
At 2000 revs the Voltage is supposed to be 40 - 45 Volts, I get 37, 23 and 22 Volts
I would say if all 3 phases are balanced chances are the windings are fine.
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Funny, it's coming from Lawrenceville, Ga about 30 miles from me.
I just loaded mine in the truck. Bastard was charging fine just to spite me.
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Vagrant -- you're going by voltage not energy. If the battery is fully charged a single phase can provide sufficient voltage but can't keep up with the from a multi-mile ride. That's why I'm getting the ammeter.
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Re: the diagrams. Okay, I stand (slightly) corrected. I was looking at the control unit pinout. The wrong #11.
I see where the #11 you noted is the pre-installation GPS.
But, and this is a big but, the diagram you reference is a 2013 V7. Is that not a series II?
If you look at the link I provided for a V7III euro4 Stone, (other than the control unit pinout), #11 identifies as the fall sensor in the main key. I have looked for a GPS plug on a series 3 to no avail.
Have you actually had the tank off and visually confirmed that there is a plug someplace? If so, I'm really interested in taking advantage of it since I hope to deal with this tomorrow.
Again, I reference the diagram for a V7III E4:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_v7-iii-e4-stone.pdf
I have looked, but perhaps I missed it. I apologize for seeming stubborn about this, but just so folks aren't chasing their tail you know.
John Henry
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For the V7 III Stone there is no "GPS Plug". Depending on your requirements your best options are #51 BlueDash Pre-Installation, #52 USB Socket, or #53 Anti-Theft Pre-Installation. I'm installing the #52 MG USB socket. The #51 BlueDash is limited functionality although adequate for GPS power and a SpeedHut CANbus tachometer. I'm looking at building my own anti-theft via #53 since multiple functions are easily accessed.
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Bert has a much better manual than I have, I tend to use Carls drawings because they are so dammed handy but I did purchase the Piaggio drawing, it has mistakes also.
I have had the tank off many times and haven't seen the connector but then if it jumped out and bit me I would probably miss it.
My Brothers V9 came with a USB charger on the headstock I believe.
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I have a V7 III Milano - 2018 build
There is a MG Blue Dash connector AND a switched 12 Volt supply on the bike. In the case of my bike, they were to be found behind the battery. Remove the right side cover and you should be able to see them.
I think that the 12 volt supply is referred to as the USB connection on the wiring diagram. The wire colours match the diagram colours.
The connector on the Blue Dash plug has 5 or 6 pins, the 12 volt has only 2. It's an AMP Super Seal connector.
I hope this will be helpful for clarification.
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Connector #51 BlueDash -- 8 terminals, 5 populated. McTes at the "Add tachometer to new V7 III Carbon Dark" thread provided an excellent analysis as well as a successful install. Be careful visiting this thread -- there is a Trojan on the first page.
Connector #52 USB -- 2 terminals, 2 populated. MG p/n 2S000983 on order from Cadre.
Connector #53 Anti-Theft -- 9 terminals, 7 populated. (Actually #53 is on the add-on anti-theft module side of the harness and has 12 terminals; the connector I am referring to is on the motorcycle side.). Cadre suggested the MG functionality wasn't what I needed so am building my own via this interface (my concern is more car-jacking than midnight theft).
When I dig into Rosso Grosso (maybe this month?) I'll post pictures of the connectors.
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ZZ, that's the diagram I been using for the III. Seen as the junk stock reg on Steve's III crapped twice I think one from EME w/one less pin will work. You just swap plugs and run a ground jumper to a split ground to make 7 and plug it in. This makes it just like the print. Only thing is you got 2 grounds to one wire going to reg. Don't know if it'll overheat or not. I'm no electric engineer but better than #3 taking a dump.
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Edoardo and Bert,
Thank you both for the info regarding the location and particular connector. It was where you noted and I used those wires. I soldered an SAE plug onto the wires for the gauge so if I were to get the USB plug that is still a viable option. Beyond that...
Before:
(https://i.ibb.co/1ZWNgYL/IMG-20200717-071323.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1ZWNgYL)
And After:
(https://i.ibb.co/B64Vsqq/IMG-20200717-095730.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B64Vsqq)
(https://i.ibb.co/fMdjDdG/IMG-20200717-100119.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fMdjDdG)
John Henry
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Dang I didn't know MG had a voltmeter accessory!
Well even if they did it wouldn't look as good as ZZ's. That Autometer stepper makes a natural trio with the speedometer and tachometer. I expect there will be several folks asking for parts list and maybe even building one for them.
Just don't hypnotized following the Blue glow down the road.
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So, first credit where do. Marietta Vespa Guzzi got me in within 24 hours of calling him.
They put it on Pads and of course it was charging. Both 02 sensors showed up as bad. Thats why the check engine light was on forever. Charging and battery checked good and no new updates. He feels the issue with intermittent charging is my radar detector and gps wire job. Same thing I've done for 20 years. So I will remove them and try for a while. I think the old and new regulator are both good. New ideas welcome! FYI no charge
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Can you describe the wiring job they think is bad? Seems a bit far fetched to me.
ZZ
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It is Gerbing jacket wire. Battery tender wire. 5 prong relay taped into a switched wire to run gps and radar. Said maybe system cannot Handel it all but it did for 14000 miles
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I heard today that Piaggio approved the new parts for my bike so thats good, in the meantime I am keeping running with a nightly charge.
ZZ, I like your installation :thumb:
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I believe the EME https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/mg-voltrect.htm
is the same as the GTM https://gtmotocycles.com/collections/electronics/products/esrvrnew
and is the same as the ESR https://www.electrosport.com/collections/regulator-rectifiers/products/esr531-regulator-rectifier-honda-super-duty
all three of which are SCR Three-Phase Shorting Regulator/Rectifier https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/
As we can see from KR's pictures and guzzisteve's post, they are not plug-compatible with the V7 III alternator 3-pin and maybe the regulator 4-pin connectors.
This looks like the best replacement stator https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429
This looks like the best replacement MOSFET Three-Phase Shorting Regulator/Rectifier http://www.roadstercycle.com/
ESR says don't use an LFP battery with MOSFET regulators and EME says don't use LFP batteries with their (SCR) regulators. I suggest you get the biggest non-Odyssey/Optima SLA/AGM battery (NOT FLA/AGM) that will fit. And replace them every three years. Cheaper and easier than a flatbed tow home.
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I just emailed them It calls for the same stator for all years yet the 2017 is an oil-cooled unit. they also don't say the output. I assume it's a Chinese part by the price.
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Oil bath alt is PN #2D000024 & reg #2D000043
Air cooled is PN #883877 & reg #883878
Thanks Bert for the Roadster site info, everything you need I see.
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You also need p/n 887003 Cover Gasket. Please note of the 12 screws, 10 are M6x25 and 2 are M6x20.
GS -- my printed parts manual Chassis Prefix ZGULDU00 08/03/2017 page 68/70 shows Position 7 Voltage Regulator as p/n 1D001549.
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My Voltmeters arrived yesterday, horrible things not even waterproof but what can you expect for $3 each eh!
I connected one up to the city light, it works really well there, gives a range of Voltage readings from 12.5 - 14 Volts depending on what's going on.
Not possible to view the green LED in bright sunlight but that's only a minor inconvenience.
Heres's the best part, I went for a fairly long ride, the low fuel light has been on for half an hour so headed for my fuel stop.
In the shade of the gas station the LEDs saying 10.5 Volts, for sure if I shut her down it's never going to start again. my $3 meter just saved me from an awkward situation.
Change of plans, scurry home and throw it on the trickle charger, gas up later.
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It is Gerbing jacket wire. Battery tender wire. 5 prong relay taped into a switched wire to run gps and radar. Said maybe system cannot Handel it all but it did for 14000 miles
I didn't really have a reply before now, but now that I have had some miles to observe my volt meter, I have a thought. First, you may have the same thing going on as Roy with regard to a winding or two being burned out. Last year, a friend of mine with a '96 Cali was having charging trouble. Turns out the voltage regulator was charging, a little. After he had trouble when we arrived in Pittsburgh to meet up for a trip to the Virginia Rally, we left the house with a fully charged battery. He made it all the way to Virginia and back home before the battery was depleted enough to get the click click sound out of the starter. In his case, a new regulator solved his trouble.
If the GPS and Radar Detector were really causing the battery to discharge, I believe it would have happened before 14K was on the clock! Something has changed.
I soldered in an SAE plug off the USB wire and that seems to provide a reliable reading for the volt meter. The lead was long enough to work with and dress up after. I did not cut the wire. Instead, I stripped back an inch or so, kind of shoved the strands of the new plug into the wire, soldered and reinsulated everything.
So assuming all is well at this point for me, what have I observed?
When I turn on the key, I see 12.5 VDC prior to starting. Once started, when cold, the voltage goes up to 14 pretty quickly. Once moving, I see 14.2 consistently. Once warmed up, I see the voltage fall to the 12.5 at idle while sitting at an intersection. Depending on the length of time sitting there, once under way, the voltage comes back up to the 14.2 probably within 100 yards. (Quicker on short stops.) In any case, once above 2 grand, the voltage holds steady at the 14.2 volts. After that, as long as it's above idle, it maintains that voltage. Although I don't have a radar detector, I am running a gps.
It's good to have a baseline so you can know what's normal. That, of course, is where a meter comes in. I **think** it's entirely possible that your charging system is diminished a little. My riding is primarily country roads with very little city riding. Probably not unlike yours, but the point is that extended periods of stop and go traffic would likely eventually draw the battery down.
If you don't have a meter yet, you ought to get one.
John Henry
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(https://i.ibb.co/7RPRWBH/thumbnail-IMG-0536.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7RPRWBH)
this is like the tale of two humans. He did it as nicely as possible and I as cheap as possible.
actually yesterday I removed all the wiring I had done before the accessory plug was discovered. Now the radar detector is run on it and yes the battery still has the oxford heated grip wire and an old-style flat battery tender wire and the new Gerbing wire. No way in hell is anybody going to convince me this doesn't work and is causing the problem seeing as it has been on 20-30 different bikes over the years. the el-cheapo gauge is direct to the battery via an old Gerbing extension cord with a rocker on/off switch. It's just temporary to see what's going on then I will find something better.
By the time I washed the 2000 miles of trail dust off the V85 and did the work to the V7III it was 95 in the shade so it didn't get ridden yet but it was still charging when I fired it up.
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I find mine wired across the City Light aka Park Light is just about right, its easy to sneak the two wires in beside the headlight connector and it comes on before the headlight turns on.
Starts out about 12.5 drops down into the 11s with cranking then runs around 13 normally at the end of the day though with my sick alternator it was down to 10.5,
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So considering my original battery on the IIID died a few months back and in light of all this talk I thought I'd check the running voltage.
I have a little digital voltage check gauge that attaches directly to the SAE Battery Tender harness plug. So I used an extension and ran it up to the handlebar bag where I placed the gauge in the cell phone display panel.
I was a little surprised by the results but it sounds normal:
* Key on/engine off - 12.9 V
* Cranking - drops to around 11.0 V
* Idle: ~12.6 - 13.0 V
* Partial throttle/pulling away ~ 13.2 - 13.7 V
* At speed 14.4 V
What surprised me was just how much the voltage dropped at idle and the length of time (maybe 5-10 seconds) it took to build back up as I pulled away.
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As you probably recall Kev, it's not uncommon for the light to glow at idle in the bikes you and I used to have.
Either way, I find comfort in knowing what is going on.
ZZ
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As you probably recall Kev, it's not uncommon for the light to glow at idle in the bikes you and I used to have.
Either way, I find comfort in knowing what is going on.
ZZ
Yeah you're right and I probably shouldn't have been surprised thinking back to the similar setup on the Jackal.
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I did the test drive today. left at 89 degrees and came back at 92. this just isn't right.
when I pulled out the gauge was at 14.4 and basically stayed that way for 40 miles, then it dropped to 12.5 for about 7 miles. I stopped at TWO for water and when I left it was still about 12.5. around ten miles later it went to 13.8 for about ten miles then dropped back to 12.5 and eventually 12.3 when I pulled into the garage at 90 total miles or so. So as I suspected removing the BS wires as the dealer wanted did nothing. It is as intermittent as it gets. (the story of my life)
FYI the digital gauge is useless in the sun. get a real one you can see in all conditions.
I am out of options other than the stator and or trading! Any other ideas?
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Now it would be testing the 3 phases then pull cover to look.
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KIwi can you get away with using the old gasket and grommet?
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The cheapo DC voltmeters are a little slow on the uptick. I have one on my Triumph, and the readings are similar when running (kicker only so no starter crank), and when at >3500 RPM I get the 14V+
So considering my original battery on the IIID died a few months back and in light of all this talk I thought I'd check the running voltage.
I have a little digital voltage check gauge that attaches directly to the SAE Battery Tender harness plug. So I used an extension and ran it up to the handlebar bag where I placed the gauge in the cell phone display panel.
I was a little surprised by the results but it sounds normal:
* Key on/engine off - 12.9 V
* Cranking - drops to around 11.0 V
* Idle: ~12.6 - 13.0 V
* Partial throttle/pulling away ~ 13.2 - 13.7 V
* At speed 14.4 V
What surprised me was just how much the voltage dropped at idle and the length of time (maybe 5-10 seconds) it took to build back up as I pulled away.
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KIwi can you get away with using the old gasket and grommet?
I never dislodged the grommet but I think you would need to use fresh gasket cement.
I re-used the original gasket when I took a look at mine, I didn't use any cement, doesn't seem to be leaking.
it will be interesting to see what Piaggio include with the kit.
Hopefully they include the replacement procedure.
I think my parts are at least 1 week away.
Heres what Bert had to say, his manual seems to have the procedure for replacing the stator.
As I advised KR via PM, the engine manual says "apply a great amount of threebond on the cable grommet"; "Check that plentiful threebond leaks out and covers all space between the seat of the cover and the cable grommet"; and "Apply another layer of threebond over the cable grommet." Threebond is "A synthetic rubber, visco-elastic sealer that is semi-drying." You also need a new cover gasket -- no dressing mentioned although I'm partial to Hylomar.
Bert, could you make sure we have the good oil on this procedure please
Thanks
Roy
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KR -- I had to look that one up. Fortunately your avatar said you were in Canada. :laugh:
I sent a PM of service manual photos to interested parties from my PM to Kiwi_Roy on: July 04, 2020, 07:46:49 PM
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I sent a PM of service manual photos to interested parties from my PM to Kiwi_Roy on: July 04, 2020, 07:46:49 PM
Yes you did, I used that to show the dealer I had tested the stator in accordance with the manual even though the manual was confused.
Its tricky taking pictures and readings at the same time as holding the revs just right.
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next question for the experts is, can the stator be re-wound or rebuilt locally seeing as a Guzzi unit is $550?
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With the offshoring of vehicle components at all assembly levels, high labor component repair has disappeared in favor of low labor component replacement. I'm pretty sure even rebuilders are mostly replacers not repairers with the failed components recycled for metals. If you do find an alternator repair service, it will probably be mail-in.
When I was looking up part numbers for KR, the stator was not sold separately but rather in combination with the rotor and related items. Add the usual logistics overhead and $550 seems about right.
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve. Do you have a shorted phase stator problem? An open phase regulator problem? A tired battery problem? An overheated or high resistance wiring or connector problem? If you know, then replace the problem item with the aftermarket items suggested earlier. If you don't know, replace all items and move on. It's time to put some fun back into your V7 III riding.
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You might call - http://www.motoelekt.com/order.htm His rotors for Bosch are wound by an aircraft guy for him. Might be worth a try, he's over in AL not too far. I think his name is Rick Jones(been awhile).
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Time I updated this thread,
I decided to have a look at the alternator, I didn't quite get it all apart but I had a good squiz inside.
While i was in there took a picture of the oil pump hidden below the chain sprocket
(https://i.ibb.co/p3MvJNj/DSCN0285.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sFNvyc9)
Anyone know if it is possible to remove the front cover whithout lost motor oil ?
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You will lose some oil because there is oil in there but weather its below the normal fill level I didn't want to find out so I just dropped it all.
You should be able to project the level from the dipstick's around to the front.
I will be doing mine again when the parts arrive, I can test it out.
Update:
If the oil is at or below the line on the dipstick you should be ok (based on screwing the dipstick in)
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Roy, any updates on your replacement parts?
John Henry
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Roy, any updates on your replacement parts?
John Henry
Apparently Piaggio has approved replacing the parts but they haven't arrived yet, In the meantime I'm racking up the miles with the help of a battery tender, also carrying the original battery in the top box as a spare, so far haven't had to use it.
Addition of the Voltmeter is most reassuring.
I will update the thread when I get the parts in
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KR -- too funny. You've got to share a picture of this. :laugh: I guess when a boyz gotta ride he's gonna ride.
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Perfectly understandable , the weather here has finally turned to summer ( a god awfully long wait ) and bikes are for riding .
And as he says Moto Guzzi , making riders electricians for a century , or something to that effect :) . Peter
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K R That's the same thing I'm doing.
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K R That's the same thing I'm doing.
But you aren't waiting on Piaggio I'm sure you'll be all fixed long before me.
I'm a stubborn son of a gun under warranty is under warranty besides I'm still mad about it catching fire, they never acknowledged that.
(https://i.ibb.co/VxqmYs9/DSCN0250.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MfC6kmS)
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KR -- surprisingly you are holding two parts: the outer shell p/n 2B00355xx (I'm looking at the Stone Parts Catalog) and the thermal cover p/n 2B003643. Maybe you can get a warranty claim for just the two thermal covers.
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KR -- surprisingly you are holding two parts: the outer shell p/n 2B00355xx (I'm looking at the Stone Parts Catalog) and the thermal cover p/n 2B003643. Maybe you can get a warranty claim for just the two thermal covers.
I have no intention of putting the flammable part back.
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But you aren't waiting on Piaggio I'm sure you'll be all fixed long before me.
I'm a stubborn son of a gun under warranty is under warranty besides I'm still mad about it catching fire, they never acknowledged that.
(https://i.ibb.co/VxqmYs9/DSCN0250.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MfC6kmS)
Put some mistrals on there and you won't have to worry about the tin foil. :) When I pulled my covers off after 2 years the foil still looked brand new.
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Roy, I just sent a PM.
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Parts arrived today
(https://i.ibb.co/SPDr7Tv/DSCN0341.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0cptVNJ)
I didn't pay that.
(https://i.ibb.co/JymyK6c/DSCN0343.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJYJ8j0)
Looking at the rotor you see the Stainless outer shell, inside that is a thin Stainless Steel sleeve that holds the 6 magnets in place.
This side of the Stator faces forward and bolts into the removable cover,
(https://i.ibb.co/WGtZ9mf/DSCN0346.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YPZm9Hh)
Rear view of the Rotor, you can see the taper that fits to the crankshaft.
(https://i.ibb.co/yN9p4wh/DSCN0347.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9pDhZFw)
You can see the Star connection at 9 O'clock. Note how the insulation has worn off the wires at Star point and coils wires at 11 O'Clock, they ship the stator inside the rotor,
its suspended forward about 3 mm by the magnetic field but every time the package is dropped the Stator springs back crashing into the bottom of the rotor, several of the wires have been hammered quite flat, Piaggio should really ship the system with some cardboard or foam between the two parts to prevent this banging together.
(https://i.ibb.co/qBKgMdb/DSCN0348.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SNbmXPq)
I will take some careful measurements of this thread as it might be handy if you wanted to make a custom puller., Its a fairly large taper with no keyway as you can see 2 back.
Here for reference are the pictures I took of the original
(https://i.ibb.co/RpP6R2Q/DSCN0288.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qM9gTBm)
I think this is the shot that finally Convinced Piaggio that I had a valid claim (2 blackened coils)
(https://i.ibb.co/zbN42mp/DSCN0287.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hHCmdgb)
Clear view of the M12 x 1.25 x 50 bolt and 3 mm washer holding the rotor to the crank.
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I spent some time measuring the threads thinking about how i'm going to get the rotor off, I have a 3 legged puller but I doubt it would be up to the job.
The rotor is made of stainless steel or at least its not ferrous, it has 6 what look like ceramic magnets and a Stainless steel liner to ensure the magnets can't break free snd clash with the stator.
There is a 1mm gap between Stator and Rotor.
The threads are 33 mm from tlp to tip and the root looks like 30 mm, my metric thread gauge 1.5 pitch is a perfect fit.
I wonder if that would be a standard thread for a metric nut, it would be easy to weld up a puller from a steel nut. Come on you machinist types :laugh:
The winding is 3 x 6 coils, at ambient temperature each string of 6 measure 0.2409 Ohms (just the coils), from one lead to another they measure ~ 0.492 Ohms
I measured these using a method known as a drop test so the figures are quite accurate.
A better picture with more dimensions, I forgot about the scanner.
I drew in the crankshaft and holding bolt/washer in red, these are from the Guzzi parts catalog.
(https://i.ibb.co/nn8TW8c/EPSON040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cCXPmXF)
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KR -- you mean you don't have a 020847Y in your tool box? Seems like you have everything else. Well here's some pictures to help.
(https://i.ibb.co/4jzqck6/P1030234.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4jzqck6)
(https://i.ibb.co/fkTjRS0/P1030235.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fkTjRS0)
(https://i.ibb.co/bg0qvkk/P1030236.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bg0qvkk)
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Ahh Ha, so that's how its supposed to work, very poor pictures but I can see the extractor threads on to the 33 mm x 1.5 thread.
I may have to leave the rotor on for now and just change the stator.
If anybody wants to make an extractor you have enough information now.
Heres the thread part https://www.mcmaster.com/metric-hex-nuts/thread-pitch~1-5millimeters/thread-size~m33/
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Was there a reason why you needed to change the rotor?
A bit of Glyptal paint could be put on the worn places on the new stator. The new one appears to be epoxy dipped. I'm not sure of a good touch up insulating epoxy.
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Was there a reason why you needed to change the rotor?
I don't think I will, not without a decent puller anyway.
Piaggio shipped it as a unit I will just keep the new Rotor and old stator together.
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The rotor and stator assembly is listed as a single part. Standalone stators are available in the aftermarket.
The rationale for replacing the rotor is the unlikely event the ceramic magnets underwent accelerated aging when the stator phases shorted.
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The rotor and stator assembly is listed as a single part. Standalone stators are available in the aftermarket.
The rationale for replacing the rotor is the unlikely event the ceramic magnets underwent accelerated aging when the stator phases shorted.
Since one of the tests is to operate with the phases shorted together I don't think thats likely besides the phases are shorted out all the time when the battery is fully charged.
They shouldn't ship them together like that without something to keep the two parts from clashing.
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Today was the day for finally changing out the stator so I proceeded to gain access
(https://i.ibb.co/R0b49RN/DSCN0353.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqTFGf0)
You can see in this view that the ABS bracket is right in the way of the top cover bolt so that had to come apart, what a pain that was, 3 bolts to remove and no access, more about that later.
Once you get that out of the way release the breather hose.
(https://i.ibb.co/ysLRh7F/DSCN0356.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NYw31b2)
Unbolting the ABS bracket.
(https://i.ibb.co/h87yMgh/DSCN0357.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MN2shgW)
Unbolting the timing sensor.
(https://i.ibb.co/X41Cd2t/DSCN0359.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QcLKqbM)
Finally off, you have to pull hard because the magnets resist coming apart.
(https://i.ibb.co/GnHCdmJ/DSCN0360.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hLY2g0M)
The dud coils.
(https://i.ibb.co/C7rz6Gk/DSCN0361.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BZ1tGMX)
The timing wheel, the hollow shaft is actually the breather system it plugs into the seal in the next picture and runs to the hose coming out the top of the case.
(https://i.ibb.co/9HSFbQG/DSCN0362.jpg) (https://ibb.co/chVG64x)
Through the seal you can see in the cover.
(https://i.ibb.co/Nmz2DS9/DSCN0363.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yYJFvS6)
Getting ready to install the new stator in the timing cover.
(https://i.ibb.co/Bs0tbn1/DSCN0364.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MNFsrBX)
Have to hurry now as the grommet doesn't want to stay in place, I could have done this differently.
(https://i.ibb.co/0DqrWn6/DSCN0365.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mDJ4YR2)
Never again will I have to unbolt all the ABS brackets to gain access to the top timing cover bolt, I drilled this rough hole through both brackets, I,ll spray it tomorrow although its hidden behind the Voltage regulator.
I should have drilled this hole right from the start, it goes through two brackets about 1/2" below the slot, the factory of course would add the ABS after the engine is installed.
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KR -- we don't care about your snits how MG makes everything hard (whiner you need to own a Norge to get some perspective). :laugh:
We want to know what caused the phase coils to turn black. And you never showed the back side of the stator. Frustrating. I want to know if one of my two theories is correct. It's my nature. :evil:
BTW I'm learning on my Stone (arrived Sunday) that if in doubt take it apart. Just like the Norge without bodywork. Did your exhaust shields have those two insulating washers with silicone grease? Was one of the screws (the rear underside) shorter than the other two contrary to the parts manual which says all three same length? As I encounter them I'm replacing hex heads with socket heads. And what's your Givi key for?
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KR -- we don't care about your snits how MG makes everything hard (whiner you need to own a Norge to get some perspective). :laugh:
Thats why I don't own a Norge and why I soon got rid of the Lario, too much tupperware, why would I want a motorbike I can't see. I don't just moan, i did something about it :grin:.
We want to know what caused the phase coils to turn black. And you never showed the back side of the stator. Frustrating. I want to know if one of my two theories is correct. It's my nature. :evil:
I will take some pictures tomorrow, actually I will have to move the coil leads out of the way, I suspect a few turns shorted causes local heating similar to what happens in motors, note the two adjacent coils are on different phases, we used to have a device called a Growler for finding those.
BTW I'm learning on my Stone (arrived Sunday) that if in doubt take it apart. Just like the Norge without bodywork. Did your exhaust shields have those two insulating washers with silicone grease? Was one of the screws (the rear underside) shorter than the other two contrary to the parts manual which says all three same length? I will have to check for you, I do know one of the screws was cross threaded at the factory, I don't recall any washers but there was some sticky stuff As I encounter them I'm replacing hex heads with socket heads. And what's your Givi key for? The fugly top box on the Griso, I had to raid the tool pouch, contrary to popular belief I don't have too many tools lol
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(https://i.ibb.co/CK7bZ94/thumbnail-IMG-0779.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CK7bZ94)
(https://i.ibb.co/VBJ6kRv/thumbnail-IMG-0780.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VBJ6kRv)
(https://i.ibb.co/CPqMkGD/thumbnail-IMG-0782.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CPqMkGD)
(https://i.ibb.co/NKZkkmW/thumbnail-IMG-0783.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NKZkkmW)
(https://i.ibb.co/S3LT1Vx/thumbnail-IMG-0786.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S3LT1Vx)
(https://i.ibb.co/DwJyjWL/thumbnail-IMG-0787.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DwJyjWL)
I'll see you and raise you one double butt ugly V7III at 16000 miles.
tons of red Loctite on those 3 mounting screws.
more to follow after I ride it.
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Wow, that looks bad!
No way of knowing for sure I suppose, but a cause would be interesting. (Heat, poor manufacturing???)
John Henry
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Vagrant and I found getting that timing cover off is a royal pain. We were getting ready to hack saw something off.
I assumed that there would be a LOT of oil trapped in there, to keep the coil cool. But there was nothing. A little oil dripped out as expected from a timing cover, but that was it. My understanding was that was the main reason for putting them in the cover.
There wasn't anything obvious that caused the overheating. Well, Vagrant has a few gadgets hooked up, but in reality, things like a radar detector are nothing compared the a headlight and such.
If it is a shunt regulator, maybe the magnet is a bit too strong. Normally shunt regulators simply rely on the core to saturate on the magnetic field to be at max, and limit the coil current. If something in there is too powerful, and the regulator is shunting the current, it could generate a bit more heat then it was designed for.
The labeling on the replacement coil was a bit different then the stock. Hopefully it has been upgraded a touch
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I think there will be more of this in time to come. They need better out sourcing for parts other than China.
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Vagrant -- you really had me going with those pictures. I was wondering how KR's stator changed so much from previous pictures. Then I realized it was your stator. We need pictures of 3-wire cable and connector to see if there was any overheating there.
Since you didn't mention a new rotor with your new stator like the pair KR received, I assume you purchased an aftermarket stator. Is this correct?
Wayne -- KR and I are pretty sure the regulator is a ShinDengen 3-phase Shorting (Shunt) SCR (not MOSFET) regulator/rectifier: https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/ where the last two characters of the part number indicate MG's specific connector type and wire colors.
I think we are looking at the following candidates for stator failures:
1. generalized overheating within design loads due to lack of oil cooling
2. generalized overheating outside design limits -- too small load
3. generalized overheating outside design limits -- too large load
4. manufacturing error in stator winding
5. phase wire short in stator 3-wire cable clamp
6. phase wire short due to pinched wire under stator
7. design error in rotor-stator relationship
After replacing his stator, Vagrant will soon provide a second data point for Candidate 1 as he'll be riding in the middle of summer.
For Candidates 2 and 3 I would expect to see signs of overheating in connectors and wiring as the stator windings look robust in comparison.
Candidate 4 seems unlikely for singleton events such as we are observing here.
Candidates 5 and 6 are my favorites for KR's stator failure.
Wayne provided a cogent argument for Candidate 7.
I'm still trying to decide on installing the Koso BA003190 Mini 3 Amp and Volt Meter before my 900 mile service.
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Well Bert you pretty much covered all possibilities
I'll just follow my gut "Wow those wires are not well fastened down"
With the wires vibrating at high frequency its worn through the insulation in places.
I suspect the replacement has a lot more epoxy holding the coil leads in place.
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Drum roll please, first follow up!
First a special thank you to Wayne Orwig for damm near 4 hours of labor and knowledge yesterday. I would have taken a BFH to something. What a pain. You folks with tiny oil mist leaks thinking about changing the gasket. DON'T!!! Go have a drink and a good cigar and call it a day. Besides, I bet your doing this same job soon anyway.
Next Kiwi Roy for all the help, pictures, and pioneering the way.
Also, to Guzzi Steve for the phone help, ideas, etc. It's nice to have Guzzi friends.
Also to whoever turned me on to the Chinese supplier.
https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429
With the 5% pop up discount $94. to the door. The Guzzi package is $550 + freight and tax. What a crock!
I wacked off (couldn't resist) 150 miles of mountain curves today and so far so good. Charging normally and running great.
Wayne cleared all the codes and rechecked the O2 sensors. Yep, both bad so he shut them off. My yellow check engine light of 6 months is gone and it runs as good as a 750CC small-block could. strangely there used to be some decell popping with the Mistrals and now there is almost none.
I am leaning more towards the stator running so hot it fries the tiny bit of engine oil on it then it shorts it out.
There was no sign of connector failure and the wire from the stator (stock one) is 30" long so as Wayne says it wasn't made just for the V7. Probably made for all their scooters. No sign of any pinch either.
Yes, I am 100% convinced my original regulator was just fine.
Now I really need to find a nice small voltmeter like Zoom Zoom has just with the decimal point moved over a notch. I'm still frugal! The 99 cents cheap digital one can't be seen in the light worth a crap.
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I'm pleased to say mine is working with the new stator also, I went for a 2 day trip 1100 km to celebrate and the battery Voltage maintained 14.5 - 14.7 for the duration.
It would be down about 12.8 first thing in the morning but soon gained 14+ once running.
It took me over 5 hours to change the stator mainly due to lack of access.
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If anyone else is faced with pulling the timing cover off I highly recommend drilling a hole through the ABS brackets to get access to that top bolt, its not impossible to remove without, just difficult.
(https://i.ibb.co/R0b49RN/DSCN0353.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqTFGf0)
You can see in this view that the ABS bracket is right in the way of the top cover bolt so that had to come apart, what a pain that was, 3 bolts to remove and no access, more about that later.
(https://i.ibb.co/0DqrWn6/DSCN0365.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mDJ4YR2)
Never again will I have to unbolt all the ABS brackets to gain access to the top timing cover bolt, I drilled this rough hole through both brackets, I,ll spray it tomorrow.
I should have drilled this hole right from the start, it goes through two brackets about 1/2" below the slot, the factory of course would add the ABS after the engine is installed. You have to drill this in-situ because one bracket is part of the frame the other is next to impossible to remove, its behind the Voltage regulator.
Watch you don't drill a hole in the breather hose while drilling it. I have the newspaper in there to deflect any drillings and protect the paint.
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Roy, just a little clarity of what I'm looking at in your top picture.
Am I correct that the L shaped bracket is the one you actually need to remove? Looking at the pics, the front bracket appears to be an integral part of the frame. (Welded to it.)
For all I know, there might come a time for me as well...
John Henry
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It appears as though the rear bracket is removable, the two torx bolts hold it to the front bracket and its bolted to the ABS unit with 3 x 8 mm bolts which you can barely get a wrench on
Even with all the bolts out I was unable to move the rear bracket very far, just enough to get a ball end key into the top bolt at an angle.
Yes the front bracket is welded in place.
I really hate drilling holes in anything but in this case I think its an improvement that could have been done at the factory, the hole about 1/2" below the slot and allows a straight shot at the bolt and its hidden by the regulator.
This crude sketch may help explain it.
(https://i.ibb.co/t8GCzbQ/EPSON043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t8GCzbQ)
Hopefully Vagrant will comment as he just went through this as well, he may have found the secret pathway.
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I'm pleased to say mine is working with the new stator also, I went for a 2 day trip 1100 km to celebrate and the battery Voltage maintained 14.5 - 14.7 for the duration.
It would be down about 12.8 first thing in the morning but soon gained 14+ once running.
It took me over 5 hours to change the stator mainly due to lack of access.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If anyone else is faced with pulling the timing cover off I highly recommend drilling a hole through the ABS brackets to get access to that top bolt, its not impossible to remove without, just difficult.
(https://i.ibb.co/R0b49RN/DSCN0353.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqTFGf0)
You can see in this view that the ABS bracket is right in the way of the top cover bolt so that had to come apart, what a pain that was, 3 bolts to remove and no access, more about that later.
(https://i.ibb.co/0DqrWn6/DSCN0365.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mDJ4YR2)
Never again will I have to unbolt all the ABS brackets to gain access to the top timing cover bolt, I drilled this rough hole through both brackets, I,ll spray it tomorrow.
I should have drilled this hole right from the start, it goes through two brackets about 1/2" below the slot, the factory of course would add the ABS after the engine is installed.
You have to drill this in-situ because one bracket is part of the frame the other is next to impossible to remove, its behind the Voltage regulator.
Watch you don't drill a hole in the breather hose while drilling it. I have the newspaper in there to deflect any drillings and protect the paint.
Sounds similar to what I faced on the V7ii. I managed to unbolt the abs module from the bracket (which took most of the time), and then maneuvered the bracket out of the way which was tight also.
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Great job, pics and descriptions on this job.
the hole drilling is the way to go otherwise a ball head Allen works if not too tight. PITA!
FYI stock appears to be exactly like my $94. unit. time will tell but I'm switching to Liquid moly oil. Maybe it won't be as susceptible to heat.
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(https://i.ibb.co/ZSF7k4c/thumbnail-IMG-0804.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZSF7k4c)
share images free (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/0fZ7Pw5/thumbnail-IMG-0803.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0fZ7Pw5)
my budget version with a Bosch gauge. ther are some cheaper but a total of $32 wasn't too bad.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UO96ZQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UM9X49S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Just out of curiosity, how have you attached that? Looks good BTW. That's how I would do it.... :wink: :grin:
For now, I used (ahem) velcro. I'm not having any trouble with it. Just thinking about something a little cleaner that would not cause permanent damage. Maybe a bead of black silicone or something. (rubbing chin)
John Henry
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If you have a small meter just mount it on a piece of sheet metal and pinch it between the handlebar clamp
(https://i.ibb.co/wQdBmRB/DSCN0416.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YdNPs3P)
I see my cheap digital go anywhere between 11 at cranking to 14.8 while running at highway speed.
The LED doesn't photograph well, its showing 12.6 here.
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A strip of this on each side. I use it for almost everything. Home depot always has it usually in electrical.
(https://i.ibb.co/RyrRp9T/thumbnail-IMG-0806.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RyrRp9T)
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I thought it's time I updated this thread. I ordered 6 Amber and 6 Green Voltmeters similar to this button from Amazon https://www.ebay.ca/itm/223807697366
These are not regular Voltmeters in that they won't read right from zero, they need a minimum of about 6 Volts to power up the electronics.
The meters are depicted On-line with a nice curved surface lens but in fact came nothing like that, just a bare display with no attempt at sealing, I sprayed mine with a conformal coating spray, this turned out to be non waterproof, next time I washed the bike water entered and the display went up-scale by about 2 Volts. On drying out the display came back to normal so I mixed up a 2 part epoxy and poured it in. it is now something like as depicted.
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o- (this stops the internet jamming an advert in here)
With the new stator in place it displays around 14.5 Volts. and will be 12.6 in the morning. After cranking it shows around 10.5 Volts for a few seconds quickly rising above 13 then settles back at 14.5 when above 2000 revs.
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
Next I thought better check out the new stator with load.
I normally run an LED head light and two driving lights 10 Watts each, no problem for the new stator.
The system is unable to sustain 14 Volts with my Girbing heated vest and gloves at 100%, Gloves alone don't have a problem, while running the heated heated vest I need to restrict that to about 50%, I can live with that.
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
To say the least I'm really pleased with the $3 investment wired across the City Light (Park Light), instead coming out to a flat battery after a toasty ride I will make sure I give the system a chance to recover before I shut her down.
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I'll join the bandwagon too. My Bosch meter listed above bounced around a lot. They replaced it with a new unit and it read a bit lower than the 14.4 I remembered then eventually dropped to a max of 13. when i put a digital meter on I was relieved to find no stator problem just a poorly adjusted meter. when you look in through the light hole in the back there is a tiny screw to adjust the meter so I did. I haven't had time to ride it yet but will to the rally in Suches this weekend. It could be it doesn't like the vibration on the bike and will go out of calibration again.
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Voltmeter that fit into the dash of my '09 V7.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/14118454779_26a80a718e_b.jpg)
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Voltmeter that fit into the dash of my '09 V7.
Thats a neat installation :thumb:
Here's mine, normally I would just make a small plate and pinch it between the handlebar clamp but I wanted to fit my tank bag for a trip so I extended it as far as I could go.
It's just wired with a small pair of wires to the City Light. It's actually indicating 12.8 but didn't photograph because of reflection.
(https://i.ibb.co/r7qLsp8/DSCN0466.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0D1Wt94)
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Thats a neat installation :thumb:
Thanks. I got it off Ebay, and the fit is close, but it works, at least for the V71. I think it was originally designed for a moped or electric vehicle.
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KR -- that's a great mount for the Givi Easy Lock tank bag. I gave my 4L bag along with the Norge because I thought its contents would walk away in an urban environment. But I miss it. So I assume you made the mount -- correct? And your doughnut and napkin holder is on top of the Givi tank bag -- correct?
PS what big horns you have. No wonder you have charging problems. :laugh:
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Yes, I carved the bracket out of 1/8' Aluminium with a coping saw.
I use some longer bolts in the handlebar clamps with 1/2" tube Spacers about 10 mm long.
The bag clears the tank by about half an inch.
In the early days of - here it was impossible to get a cup of coffee, everything but the drive thru was closed so I made the cup holder
I took the napkin holder off, I had another plate with 4 strong magnets to hold my change (all Canadian coins ar ferrous) this would hold napkins and maps etc
I use Tap these days, more convenient.
Its still quicker most times to use the drive thru, then you can pick a nice spot to enjoy your coffee and not have to worry about social distancing.
Loud horns save lives I put a pair of the cheap Fiaams on all my bikes.
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Roy , I'm curious about your charging system output .You mention that with your LED headlight and heated grips and vest that
your system can't make full voltage . I use a standard H4 headlight bulb and 2 heated vests ( for my better half) and my Le Mans 2
with the old 280 Watt Bosch system comes to 14v when up to 4000rpm . Is that V7 system not rated for 280 watts also ? Curiosity
is getting to me . Peter
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Peter,
I'm sure I have read the alternator capacity somewhere, there are hundreds of sites listing the V7 specs but none of them list the alternator capacity.
I downloaded the official brochure, it doesn't mention the alternator, just shows a bunch of hipsters riding V7s
The original headlight was 55/60 Watt, i'm sure I am close to that with the LED headlight and two driving lights.
One of these days I might actually do some measurements but for now I can report just what I found running my heated gear. 50% on the Vest or it drops Voltage, no doubt I will do further testing as the weather turns cold.
I did measure the AC short circuit capacity, that was quite a bit lower than called for called for in the workshop manual, typically 13 instead of 20-25 at 4,000 but i have no faith in the manual, I have to assume that my new stator was good. It's certainly working much better than it did with the old one I'm guessing I have about 100 Watts of extra capacity for heated gear. I can run it on maximum it just might not start again if I shut down.
Doesn't your Lemans run a wound rotor alternator, you said 280 Watts, that should be plenty.
Your 1400 has a fairly large car type alternator with a belt drive, i'm guessing it spins faster than engine speed and has a large capacity.
Roy
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IIRC, all the modern models with the external alternator are 550 watts. 1400, Stelvio, Norge, etc.
Yeah, I too saw it somewhere on the SB's but I don't recall off hand.
John Henry
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Voltmeter that fit into the dash of my '09 V7.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3799/14118454779_26a80a718e_b.jpg)
Ther, that's what I was looking for but never found. All now are digital. do you still have the link for it.
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Found it. V7III is 268 watts.
John Henry
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Found it. V7III is 268 watts.
John Henry
That sounds about right, I measured the short circuit current at 13 Amps. For 3 phase 13 x 1.732 = 22.5 Amps x 12V = 270 Watts.
Later on looking through the owners manual on page 230 it says 268 Watts.
The workshop manual showed a picture of the test snd said 20 - 25 which is totally wrong, I think they meant 20 - 25 after the regulator.
When I get time I will measure the normal consumption.
Key On Motor running Comment
Fuse A 530 mA 2.4 A Brake On
Fuse B 0 4.85A/5.3A Low/High beam With normal H4 bulb
Fuse C 180/80 mA 7.6A*/192 mA *While cranking
Fuse D 560/480 mA 440 mA
Fuse E 550 mA 470 mA
Fuse F 5.7/1.1 A* -3A** *While Priming/After Priming from this I assume Pump and coils draw 4.6 Amps, ** -3 is charging current going other way
So the total current with the motor running is ~8.8 Amps or ~128 Watts, this doesn't allow for intermittent load like brake light or direction indicators
I revised this load based on fuse F with the pump running to 12.63 Amps or 151 Watts or 14.5 Amps sitting at a light with the head-light on Hi beam and the brake on or 174 Watts
This wasn't a very scientific evaluation, I really need to unplug the Alternator to get a better reading of fuse F, that's a job that requires the tank off.
Heating Load
Girbing Gloves (pair) 26 Watt (2.2A) @ 100%
Girbing Jacket Liner 77 Watt (6.4A) @ 100%
That all adds up to 248 Watts or 277 Watts sitting at a light with the headlight on Hi beam and the brake On
Notes:
I based the Wattage on 12 Volts, perhaps I should have used 14
With my LED headlight and 2 driving lights I save about 1.5 Amps, I used a standard H4 in the calculations.
I haven't really factored in Ignition and injectors, these aren't firing during priming but when running the back flow from alternator interferes with the reading.
The Lambda Probe heaters haven't been measured, I assume these are off when the engine is up to temperature.
By disconnecting the Alternator you would be able to measure the total current directly across fuse F
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Note Alternator/Regulator Items 23/24 are 3 phase not single phase as shown.
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I guess the other thing I'm not too sure of , is how much current does you heated vest draw ? As mentioned above I never had any
problems running both vests (and I'm not sure if I was running the heated grips at the same time) and no problem starting . My vests
are made in B.C by Black Jack . Maybe more efficient ? Ain't electricity great :) . Peter
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Ther, that's what I was looking for but never found. All now are digital. do you still have the link for it.
Vagrant,
That purchase was years ago, but the operative search term was "edgewise." And voltmeter, etc. I got mine for short money.
The term Edgewise gets you the analog, long voltmeters like that one. Right now I don't see any on Ebay in the correct volt range, (or price), but if you keep looking one will popup. Also try moped/scooter parts stores, as I think this was orig. an elec. scooter part.
Joe
P.S. A search found it: https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-12-Volt-DC-Voltmeter-Edgewise-Panel-Meter-0-15V-Modutec-Made-USA-147-/352556934708 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-12-Volt-DC-Voltmeter-Edgewise-Panel-Meter-0-15V-Modutec-Made-USA-147-/352556934708)
P.P.S. The voltmeter actually reads 0.5 v low. The seller said that's the way it is, and I've learned to live w it.
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I guess the other thing I'm not too sure of , is how much current does you heated vest draw ? As mentioned above I never had any
problems running both vests (and I'm not sure if I was running the heated grips at the same time) and no problem starting . My vests
are made in B.C by Black Jack . Maybe more efficient ? Ain't electricity great :) . Peter
I don't recall what my vest or gloves draw any more, but the heated gear makers publish how many watts their gear uses. Check out the manufacturers site for numbers or maybe just google it. Shouldn't be to hard to locate.
John Henry
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I don't recall what my vest or gloves draw any more, but the heated gear makers publish how many watts their gear uses. Check out the manufacturers site for numbers or maybe just google it. Shouldn't be to hard to locate.
John Henry
Girbing Gloves (pair) 26 Watt (2.2A) @ 100%
Girbing Jacket Liner 77 Watt (6.4A) @ 100%
The current doesn't change as, you turn the controller down it spends more time Off
Similar to the simmerstat on your cooking range.
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But, the real story is the 2017+ is a suck ass mediocre system and a major step backward from the 2015 V7.
I bet it's off one of there scooters.
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TZCB7JV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07T4H4FR3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
(https://i.ibb.co/mRF6Nkm/thumbnail-IMG-0855.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mRF6Nkm)
(https://i.ibb.co/FXyGpCJ/thumbnail-IMG-0854.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FXyGpCJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/FXyGpCJ/thumbnail-IMG-0854.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FXyGpCJ)
so here are my final fixes. I hope!
a blind person can see this digital voltmeter.
Bill H supplied me with the # for this made for cycles LED headlight. when you remove the stock bulb there is a black ring in there held in by two tiny screws. remove them and it and the bulb fit perfectly. I also have an LED taillight.
all necessary if you want to run stuff! I always have a radar detector and a Garmin car GPS running. cruising along at 4000 RPM at 14.4 volts the bike drops 1 volt when the Oxford grips are on 60%. Using a heat troller and a Gerbing jacket liner at 50% it drops 1 more volt leaving you at 12.5 or so. turning off the radar detector and the Garmin makes no difference.
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I have been testing with my heated gear running.
The alternator will hold the battery at 13.5 Volts with the gear on 100% as long as you are riding.
Stop at a light though with your foot on the brake and it will soon be hovering at around 12, it takes a long time to recover from there.
Running at 50% it is fine, you can do that all day.
I really think if you are going to run heated gear on your V7 you should have a Voltmeter otherwise you might find your battery flat next time you try to start.
I powered my heated gear controller from fuse A so it's turned off with the key, leaving it on with the engine not running would run the battery down in no-time.
My Voltmeter, the bracket is held by a rubber covered bolt jammed into the large hex of the steering stem.
The bluetooth heated gear controls pinched between the bar clamps.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z24cbfr/DSCN0505.jpg) (https://ibb.co/41v40FL)
Bluetooth heatroller glued to the airbox under the LH side cover.
(https://i.ibb.co/7vwVfMg/DSCN0510.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v17mFys)
The Bluetooth link has a delay, you can see a low Voltage on the Voltmeter and turn the knob down, it might take 30 seconds before the Voltage comes back up. The handlebar unit has a small LED you can see pulse to update the heat setting 0 thru A on the heatroller