Author Topic: Rough Idling Issue  (Read 1479 times)

Offline TurcoLoco

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Rough Idling Issue
« on: August 14, 2022, 04:15:46 PM »
Last few starts, the idling has been rough and sometimes it dies even after rough idling for a minute or two.

I have done a little search and seen of the "stepper motor" cleaning but no clear instructions on it.
Is there such a thread/sticky that I missed that someone could point me to?
I have the battery and its holder off and could see a few houses but some stated removing the airbox to reach the stepper motor so I am not sure what the correct method is.

Is the correct access to clean the stepper motor in the attached images or do I need to go thru the airbox route?

TIA



« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 04:16:31 PM by TurcoLoco »

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2022, 08:35:47 PM »
I'm very surprised NO ONE has answered your request.

How many times have you cleaned the throttle bodies or tuned it up in the last 4yrs of ownership? Have you looked at the spark plugs?
I would think that and not the stepper. But if that hose goes to stepper, shoot some carb cleaner in it while idling the bike. Then I dose it w/silicone spray. You have the newer plastic stepper, less problems.
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Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2022, 10:27:15 PM »
Hi Steve,

Thank you for replying.
I owned this bike since the beginning of 2019 so about 3.5 years.
Currently, bike has about 16K miles on it.
Only related maintenance I did was for the fluids (engine oil, gearbox, final drive, clutch & brake)which I have replaced twice.
Oh, also changed the plugs to NGK Iridium ones almost 2 years ago.

I forgot to mention, rough idling goes away completely after riding for a little while (5+ miles), does that help with narrowing down the possible culprit?

If the images I attached indeed show the stepper motor, into which hole do I spray the carb cleaner?
Also, is it possible to use Throttle Body and Air-intake cleaner instead?


« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 11:15:58 PM by TurcoLoco »

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2022, 11:16:19 PM »
Yes, that appears to be the stepper hose.
"Pray through Carlo & your bike shall be healed"
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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2022, 11:16:19 PM »

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2022, 01:14:56 AM »
Yes, that appears to be the stepper hose.
Great!

So, should I spray the cleaner into the black arrow or the red one or both?

Also, what is the silicone spray for?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 01:15:47 AM by TurcoLoco »

Offline Huzo

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2022, 03:02:12 AM »
It’s an 8V so I’m staying out.

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2022, 03:07:34 AM »
It's probably not a factor but there's a split in the other hose in the second image level with the tip of the red arrow.

Phil
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2022, 03:17:15 AM »
A stepper motor‘s mission in life, is to adjust the mixture to set idle speed.
A malfunctioning stepper is more likely to produce a fluctuating idle speed, than a roughness as such. I would simply leave the electric plug hooked up, but blank off the air feed and witness the result. If your stepper is being wrongly commanded, or simply sticking, then the electric servo will still malfunction, but the air/fuel ratio will not alter in unison.
This will leave you with an idle at incorrect speed, but should not continue to fluctuate.
Have you balanced the TB’s and set the idle balance by the correct method ?
I trust your sacred screw has not been molested ?

Offline lucian

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2022, 06:34:14 AM »
I think the right hand hose with the split is the tank vent line to the tip over valve. As Steve has mentioned a proper tune up is due, Valve adjustment could be a contributing factor also throttle body balance and tps and self learners reset. When balancing the TB's , only one air bleed screw should be opened on the side with the highest manifold vacuum. A quick search on tuning the moto guzzi 8v will get you all the info needed. Also check your airbox and filter to see if there is an abundance of oil in there . If you have been running the oil level to the full mark on the dipstick , it is a possibility , The 8v's will expel oil  out the case vent until they find their happy level. On mine it seems to be about two thirds up the dipstick range.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2022, 08:00:35 AM »
The hose w/black arrow goes into the airbox, red arrow(same hose) goes to stepper. Disconnect black arrow end from airbox to spray cleaner into end.
Silicone spray will lubricate the stepper for better operation.
If you undo the intake rubber snorkels hose clamps, you can remove airbox a bit back enough to clean the TB's.
I do mine every 10K mi and it always runs smooth.
After 19K mi I would think you need a tune-up.
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Offline berniebee

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2022, 12:44:28 PM »
Valve adjustment could be a contributing factor...

 :thumb:  Definitely check the valve clearances or get them checked. Incorrect valve clearances can cause a rough idle.

And get back to us when you solve the issue!

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2022, 12:54:43 PM »
A stepper motor‘s mission in life, is to adjust the mixture to set idle speed.
A malfunctioning stepper is more likely to produce a fluctuating idle speed, than a roughness as such. I would simply leave the electric plug hooked up, but blank off the air feed and witness the result. If your stepper is being wrongly commanded, or simply sticking, then the electric servo will still malfunction, but the air/fuel ratio will not alter in unison.
This will leave you with an idle at incorrect speed, but should not continue to fluctuate.
Have you balanced the TB’s and set the idle balance by the correct method ?
I trust your sacred screw has not been molested ?
Thank you Huzo, yes I am very new to the “stepper motor” concept but I gathered that reading a bunch of different posts on various threads.

I was focusing on cleaning the stepper motor first and foremost as most similar issues were pointing to it as the culprit.

No, TBS yet, I was planning on checking but the bike runs great at cruising speed, pulls smooth and strong. The issue was with idling, mainly when cold (not ridden a bit).

Also, I found out the only way to reset the TPS was by means of using some expensive re-flash tool, using a software like GuzziDiag which another forum pretty much warned me not to and third option being the dealership doing it.

I already downloaded GuzziDiag about two years ago but never installed or used it. I also have the connection cables and if it is straightforward enough to reset TPS using it, I am all for it.

I have done TBS on bunch of different bikes in the past using my Carbtune Pro so only things I need to figure out is where the nipples to connect the tool are.  =)


I think the right hand hose with the split is the tank vent line to the tip over valve. As Steve has mentioned a proper tune up is due, Valve adjustment could be a contributing factor also throttle body balance and tps and self learners reset. When balancing the TB's , only one air bleed screw should be opened on the side with the highest manifold vacuum. A quick search on tuning the moto guzzi 8v will get you all the info needed. Also check your airbox and filter to see if there is an abundance of oil in there . If you have been running the oil level to the full mark on the dipstick , it is a possibility , The 8v's will expel oil  out the case vent until they find their happy level. On mine it seems to be about two thirds up the dipstick range.
I didn’t know about Stelvios but I never liked filling anything up the the brim and the oil level is at least a couple of mm below the max level so I think I am good. I also checked the airbox and it seemed fairly dry.
Thanks.


The hose w/black arrow goes into the airbox, red arrow(same hose) goes to stepper. Disconnect black arrow end from airbox to spray cleaner into end.
Silicone spray will lubricate the stepper for better operation.
If you undo the intake rubber snorkels hose clamps, you can remove airbox a bit back enough to clean the TB's.
I do mine every 10K mi and it always runs smooth.
After 19K mi I would think you need a tune-up.
Actually a hair over 16K but I don’t mind checking and doing the TBS if needed.
I forgot to mention, I did check the valve openings like 3-4 months back and they were fine.
I could check again as it is not that hard.
Again, the bike is smooth and strong at cruising speed so I will focus on the stepper motor cleaning first then go from there.

I have to check the airbox route you mentioned because those pictures are from underneath the battery. Airbox is too far back and to be honest, not sure if I could reach the stepper motor from the airbox even by moving it back but I will take a look.

Some other forums people advice against using a lubricant for the stepper motor as they think it just needs periodic cleaning as it didn’t come lubricated from the factory so should be lubricated. I wonder if it is because they are using Carb Cleaner which is really strong and harsh on plastic/rubber type material? I was using Throttle Body and Air-intake Cleaner which is less aggressive and plastic/rubber friendly to my knowledge. Am I wrong?

I’d like to know what your thoughts are on that as well.

Thank you all!




« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 12:56:17 PM by TurcoLoco »

Offline Huzo

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2022, 03:07:00 PM »
By “rough”, do you mean surging like this does for 30 seconds when cold ?
https://youtu.be/Li8qvFVuAJ8

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2022, 04:12:06 PM »
By “rough”, do you mean surging like this does for 30 seconds when cold ?
https://youtu.be/Li8qvFVuAJ8
It does surge a bit but not quite the same way, the ups and downs are not as pronounced.
It is almost like it is not getting enough fuel and the RPMs are a little lower than normal.
Sometimes it dies within 10 seconds, sometimes after a minute or so.

I am not sure if that plastic hub is an extension of the stepper motor or the airbox which could explain why people were suggesting removing the airbox lid to do the cleaning.
I didn't find it hard to remove the battery and its casing.

Anyhow, earlier today I did remove the U-shaped hose from the picture, then using a fuel line hose I connected to the red arrow port that seemed to be the same ID, I sprayed Throttle Body and Air-intake cleaner for several seconds.
I let it sit for a few minutes. Tried starting, not happening. Waited several more minutes, slightly better but still no dice.
Waited 15 more minutes and then tried, nope. It took a few more progressive attempts to get it to start but it did!
It seemed to idle better but still not as good as before. I shut it off and put on the battery charger to make sure the battery was full again.
30 minutes later I tried starting and it started right up. Idling seemed as good as the previous time.

The bike does run like a beast though and within a few minutes of riding, coming to a full stop, idling seemed much more stable.
I might be onto something!

Should I do it again? If yes, should I now try the carb cleaner or stick with throttle body and air-intake cleaner?
Is Silicone lubricant really needed? If so, it will likely to kill the engine so should I use it when it is not running and let it sit for a while before starting?

Btw, was that your bike? It sure is a beauty!! :thumb:

TIA
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 04:21:21 PM by TurcoLoco »

Offline Huzo

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2022, 04:49:10 PM »
I see your bike is an 8V.
Norge/Sport/Griso/Stelvio……?
I would have the airbox off, remove the stepper motor and spray the internals with penetrant while actuating the key. You’ll see and hear the stepper whirring as it activates.
Get some carb cleaner in there, or better still install another if you can borrow a known good one.
Check the connections on the relevant temp sensors on your motor, you may be getting poor data to your ECU when cold.
Check all the hoses and clamps on the plumbing around the stepper.
Again, if you temporarily block the air supply to your stepper, you’ll be able to see if the symptom disappears or changes.
Or you could unplug it for the test.

You see, the stepper is the sole means of adjusting the idle rpm, it does so by operating a small servo motor within the body, which turns a threaded needle which operates in an annulus….(small hole), very similar to a needle and jet in a carby.
The engine has a target RPM and the ECU “knows” if the revs are above or below this value, it commands the stepper to raise or lower the needle, altering the idle mixture and therefore RPM.
You have not fully clarified if your idle is “rough” or “pulsing”.

Yes that’s my V85.
I did a thread a while back called “V85 facelift”, outlining the steps I took to get it to where you see it now.
https://youtu.be/W9ulUhJgVwk
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 05:07:28 PM by Huzo »

Offline lucian

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2022, 06:53:19 PM »
Check you air bleed screws to make sure only one side is open. They are a brass ,5mm allen screw in the bottom of either TB facing downward . They tighten clockwise to close. Not always does one need to be open but never should both be open. My 8v griso's tb's balance out  with both closed as long as the valve gaps are spot on.
As Huzo said, make sure all the hoses are in good shape. Also, don't be afraid of Guzzi diag as it is a wonderful and necessary tool to home service a FI guzzi. There is an excellent tutorial on its use here:  You will need it to check/ reset your TPS and self learning parameters as well as checking for diagnostic fault codes stored in the ecu. and a lot more including checking stepper function.

       https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96957.0

Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2022, 11:21:39 PM »
I see your bike is an 8V.
Norge/Sport/Griso/Stelvio……?
I would have the airbox off, remove the stepper motor and spray the internals with penetrant while actuating the key. You’ll see and hear the stepper whirring as it activates.
Get some carb cleaner in there, or better still install another if you can borrow a known good one.
Check the connections on the relevant temp sensors on your motor, you may be getting poor data to your ECU when cold.
Check all the hoses and clamps on the plumbing around the stepper.
Again, if you temporarily block the air supply to your stepper, you’ll be able to see if the symptom disappears or changes.
Or you could unplug it for the test.

You see, the stepper is the sole means of adjusting the idle rpm, it does so by operating a small servo motor within the body, which turns a threaded needle which operates in an annulus….(small hole), very similar to a needle and jet in a carby.
The engine has a target RPM and the ECU “knows” if the revs are above or below this value, it commands the stepper to raise or lower the needle, altering the idle mixture and therefore RPM.
You have not fully clarified if your idle is “rough” or “pulsing”.

Yes that’s my V85.
I did a thread a while back called “V85 facelift”, outlining the steps I took to get it to where you see it now.
https://youtu.be/W9ulUhJgVwk

My bike is a 2017 Stelvio NTX. During the original issue, the idling was rough as in weak, not pulsating like yours.
The TB & Air-intake cleaner must have made a difference, I followed it with Carb Cleaner (several seconds into the red arrow).
Since I was using a temporary hose, I could run the bike while doing all that. The only the port pointed with black arrow didn't have anything connected to it.
Same as before, carb cleaner did kill the bike for a while. I had to wait and try to start like 4-5 times, cranking only 3-4 seconds at a time in order to not exhaust the starter.
At the last attempt, it did start and seemed to be almost perfectly idling right around 1100 RPM.
I let it idle for several minutes then shut it off. Then as guzzisteve suggested, I did spray a little Silicone lubricant in but didn't start it again.
I will check tomorrow after I get home to see.

I will report back then.

Man, that bike was purring!
Is that the new v85TT that came out a few years back?
Without its bags, it does look more like a Breva. I took the side boxes and the rack off of mine too (just use a top box).
  :smiley:


Check you air bleed screws to make sure only one side is open. They are a brass ,5mm allen screw in the bottom of either TB facing downward . They tighten clockwise to close. Not always does one need to be open but never should both be open. My 8v griso's tb's balance out  with both closed as long as the valve gaps are spot on.
As Huzo said, make sure all the hoses are in good shape. Also, don't be afraid of Guzzi diag as it is a wonderful and necessary tool to home service a FI guzzi. There is an excellent tutorial on its use here:  You will need it to check/ reset your TPS and self learning parameters as well as checking for diagnostic fault codes stored in the ecu. and a lot more including checking stepper function.

       https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96957.0
Super! I will definitely look into doing the TBS once I get GuzziDiag running and become a little familiar with it.
Thanks a bunch for the link!  :bow:
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 11:29:22 PM by TurcoLoco »

Offline Huzo

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2022, 11:51:30 PM »
Yes mate.
It’s just a normal V85 with some bits taken off and thrown in the bin and a couple of altered bits added.
I’m sometimes asked how I got it looking like that….
I just cut away the bits that didn’t…

Offline della moto

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2022, 11:57:58 PM »
I have the pulsating idle at the first start up of the day, especially if the bike has sat for a few days. What does this mean?

It is much more aggressive than that video posted. It smooths out within about a minute if I just let it warm up and then it's good for the rest of the day.

Offline Huzo

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2022, 12:55:08 AM »
I have the pulsating idle at the first start up of the day, especially if the bike has sat for a few days. What does this mean?

It is much more aggressive than that video posted. It smooths out within about a minute if I just let it warm up and then it's good for the rest of the day.
I’ll bet my left one that it’s being commanded by the stepper.
Now maybe the stepper is over compensating and allowing the revs to drop too low, then the ECU realises and commands the stepper to open….
But by a bit too much.
Which then over revs the idle.
So…
The stepper closes the needle but a bit too much…
The target rpm figure is being missed by a couple of hundred each side, until it zero’s in on the correct figure and trims out the highs/lows.
Just a guess of course.
If I wanted to, I could pull the plug on the stepper while it’s oscillating and I’d know immediately if it’s stepper generated.
But I choose not to care..
By the time I’ve scratched my butt and put on my gloves, it’s settled down predictably.

Online blackcat

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2022, 06:37:06 AM »
Not that I’m suggesting you do this as I don’t know where you live(real cold climate), but the stepper motor was giving me similar trouble on my 07 Norge and I kept it wired up and installed rubber caps on the stepper motor. On cold NY days it took a little while to get it warmed up, but end of problems and this was about 12 or so years ago.
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Offline della moto

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2022, 12:03:37 PM »
I’ll bet my left one that it’s being commanded by the stepper.
Now maybe the stepper is over compensating and allowing the revs to drop too low, then the ECU realises and commands the stepper to open….
But by a bit too much.
Which then over revs the idle.
So…
The stepper closes the needle but a bit too much…
The target rpm figure is being missed by a couple of hundred each side, until it zero’s in on the correct figure and trims out the highs/lows.
Just a guess of course.
If I wanted to, I could pull the plug on the stepper while it’s oscillating and I’d know immediately if it’s stepper generated.
But I choose not to care..
By the time I’ve scratched my butt and put on my gloves, it’s settled down predictably.

Not going to lie, I never even heard of a stepper motor until this thread. It's behaving pretty much exactly as you describe. It's even sputtered out a couple of times on startup, it's that low. It really pulses for about a min, almost as if you were giving it some gas... vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom, at like 1-1.5 second intervals. Then it settles down in 30-60 seconds.

Not that I’m suggesting you do this as I don’t know where you live(real cold climate), but the stepper motor was giving me similar trouble on my 07 Norge and I kept it wired up and installed rubber caps on the stepper motor. On cold NY days it took a little while to get it warmed up, but end of problems and this was about 12 or so years ago.

I'm in Chicago in the middle of summer right now, so it's not a cold weather thing, but it sounds like we're all leaning towards the stepper motor.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 12:22:40 PM by della moto »

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2022, 12:09:22 PM »
"I'm in Chicago in the middle of summer right now, so it's not a cold weather thing, but it sounds like we're all leaning towards the stepper motor."

Not too hard to experiment and see what happens as it's easy to re-connect the hoses. I haven't found it to be something that I miss, just takes a short while to get the bike warmed up and once underway it is fine.
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Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2022, 11:44:02 PM »
Yes mate.
It’s just a normal V85 with some bits taken off and thrown in the bin and a couple of altered bits added.
I’m sometimes asked how I got it looking like that….
I just cut away the bits that didn’t…
You did the right thing!

Anyhow, I think my issue is near over.
Today I checked the bike and the temporary hose I had connected to the stepper motor actually spitted back out some of the silicone lubricant I sprayed yesterday.
Not sure what it means but I put everything back together and the bike started right up and idled like it used to!
I let it run for several minutes and shut it off. I will be riding it tomorrow morning to see if anything comes up but so far so good!
Eventually, I want to take the stepper motor out and do a more thorough cleaning, also do the TBS, etc.
At that point, I will re-check the valve adjustment. Maintenance wise, this is one of the most straightforward bikes I have ever worked with - the minute exception being TPS reset.
If GuzziDiag works the way I am hoping that it'd be a none issue, of course.

I thank you all for chiming in! I will report back if something changes but I believe I am all set for now.

Hopefully della moto will find a solution for his issue as well.
I, too, never heard of a stepper motor until I had this issue!

Learning new things even due to problems, is something I still find valuable!  :weiner:

Offline Muzz

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2022, 12:32:42 AM »
Pete Roper, who many know of, has suggested that the bike is busy purging it's charcoal canister which is loaded up with evaporative when it's parked in the heat.
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Offline TurcoLoco

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Re: Rough Idling Issue
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2022, 08:53:51 PM »
Pete Roper, who many know of, has suggested that the bike is busy purging it's charcoal canister which is loaded up with evaporative when it's parked in the heat.
The only charcoal canister I was aware of is the one located behind the headlight cowling which I thought was a part of the CA emission nonsense.
All Guzzis have that?  :shocked:

I have removed mine with the first 6 months of getting the bike.

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