Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: fotoguzzi on February 09, 2023, 06:13:15 PM
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If so and if the immobilizer has lost memory can you recover the connection? It doesn’t look like the key has a battery in it.
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If so and if the immobilizer has lost memory can you recover the connection? It doesn’t look like the key has a battery in it.
No battery in the key, but there is a transponder chip in the key that communicates with the ECU through an 'antenna' that surrounds the key slot. The key is not programmed, it is the ECU that 'learns' to communicate with key and register it to the ECU so the bike will run. Otherwise the ECU will 'immobilize' the bike.
You need the user code to program the dash to register keys.
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Hm, I don’t suppose that’s the same as the service code, is it?
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I think my key is fine but Here’s why I ask.
My Norge (2007) and my buddies 2008 have the same no start problem. Actually it will start by jumping the relay but the start button doesn’t work.
I’ve read everything i can find but still don’t have the answer. First the startus-interuptus fix has been done. Norge 1200.
turn key on, dash sweeps as normal and hear all the regular noises purge pump etc. push start button hear a thunk (from the starter solenoid?) and then nothing. It’s like everything good right up till the point where the starter should spin. Like I said the fix of a battery fused wire to the yellow wire at the start solenoid has been done.
if I jump the yellow to orange wires at the start solenoid the starter spins and bike starts. So the basic thing is the start button does not get the starter spinning. Checked the clutch switch, SS switch, neutral light works, new battery that checks out. I had a suggestion to clean the ground on back of starter but since it starts by jumping the solenoid I don’t think that could be it? The button wiring goes thru the clutch switch and the bank angle sensor (I tested and it works) could that be where the problem is? But why on both bikes would that fail?
what am I missing, it sounds like I’m having a brain fog or something but I read the start procedure in manual and follow exactly.
it’s pretty weird that two bikes in one garage have this same problem but I find nothing on line with this exact situation.
Tried 3 batteries one is brand new.
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I have ordered all new relays and should have them tomorrow.
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Make sure the battery is good. I bought a new interstate battery and got the no start click but a jump would fire it right up. I took the bike to them so they could test the battery. It checked ok but they gave me another one. Have been using that other one for 4 years no issues.
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Well, Brad.. it's *not* the immobilizer. Cleaning up the ground is a good idea..
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just because the battery shows 12 or 13 volts does not mean it has cranking amps
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read your own post brad the starter works there for the bat works your not getting enough amps to the solanoid .
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I think a search for "Startus Interuptus" may be in order.
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I think a search for "Startus Interuptus" may be in order.
Thatwas the very first thing we did.
Like I said the fix of a battery fused wire to the yellow wire at the start solenoid has been done.
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When you hit the starter button, have you "confirmed" that the noise your hearing is the starter solenoid?
You said that you could jump 2 wires and the bike will crank and start. To be sure I understand. If you took a jumper wire from battery positive and touch it to the starter solenoid small spade connector the bike will crank and start?
If it will start with the jumper wire, the starter and battery positive and ground seem to be working.
I would make sure your starting relays are all getting power in and out as they should and confirm how may volts your getting to the spade on the solenoid.
If all check out. It "MAY" be a bad ECU. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ECU has final say as to if the bike will crank? I DO remember a post a few months ago with a bike that had starting issues. I can't remember the details, but I think he ended up swapped the ECU with a Ducatti one and problem of starting solved. I think he then tried a friends Guzzi ECU and again solved IIRR. Might be worth searching for the thread. The guy was in the UK I think.
Good luck,
Tom
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Guzzidiag at hand?, it will show if bike is ready to crank.
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Guzzidiag at hand?, it will show if bike is ready to crank.
it shows discrepancies, saying start possible and start switch electrical errors.
Why would the GD show a different voltage that reading right off the battery. I see now why it won’t crank with not enough voltage but I used a new battery showing 12.8 before key on. Then tried another battery with a jumper hooked to a second battery but still got the low voltage signal.
Am I the new “Mr Nevada”?
(https://i.ibb.co/pJQVJM3/FDE1-A916-04-F0-4-E60-A94-F-0-CE23-CCC32-B3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJQVJM3)
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There's your load test!
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“Am I the new “Mr Nevada”?“
Not even close may he rest in peace.
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There's your load test!
if true why does it fire right off when jumping the starter relay?
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The ECU requires a good ground and connection to measure the battery volts. If your multimeter reads, say 12.8V, but GuzziDiag shows 11.4, then either you have a bad connection or ground (most likely), or the ADC (analog to digital converter) in the ECU isn't working properly (least likely).
Startus Interruptus is probable. Check the ground on the ECU is clean and tight before going there, however. I've seen bad kill and start switches cause issues, too.
FYI, the immobiliser is controlled by the dash, not the ECU. Since you're getting the 'Start Possible' message in GuzziDiag, it's not the immobiliser. Even with worst case scenario, if the dash is sending the ECU the "don't start" message, just disconnect the dash to confirm. The engine will start without the dash connected.
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if you connect the yellow wire to the Orange /green on at the starter relay it cranks, right? You can do that by removing the Start relay and jumping between the two contact terminals of the socket
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There are several wires that have to be in great shape to fix Startus interrupts
The yellow at the start relay should be a 16 gauge direct from the battery via a dictated fuse,
the wire from start relay to the solenoid should also be a #16
The bank angle sensor needs to be closed, it
s interlocked with thee start relay coilI have found that jumping the battery to the solenoid spade seems to close it, it can open if the bike is dropped
causing the starter to wind over can shake it closed.
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if true why does it fire right off when jumping the starter relay?
If this is the case, is clearly not a key-immobilizer issue, likely 'starter interuptus' Lots of thread on that.
BLUF: Stock wiring doesn't deliver enough current to starter to engage and turn the engine over.
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There are several wires that have to be in great shape to fix Startus interrupts
The yellow at the start relay should be a 16 gauge direct from the battery via a dictated fuse,
the wire from start relay to the solenoid should also be a #16
The bank angle sensor needs to be closed, it
s interlocked with thee start relay coilI have found that jumping the battery to the solenoid spade seems to close it, it can open if the bike is dropped
causing the starter to wind over can shake it closed.
yes, if jumping the orange and yellow at the starter relay it will start. That wire from battery is 16g with a fuse. I have not done anything with the wire from relay to solenoid, I’ll look into that. Maybe that’s where I’m losing the amps to the starter?
I took the bank angle sensor out and tested it with an ohm meter, seemed to work, lost continuity when I tipped it 90* sideways. The starter solenoid pin is not very accessible on a Norge.
As a little more of a challenge some of the wire colors do not match the schematic I have, most do.. and 4 of the relay are identical but the 5th relay is bigger and has a different orientation of the pins, that’s the one that colors don’t match up , pretty sure that 5th relay is different on my buddies bike too, it’s either a headlight relay or one of the injector relays, I haven’t figured that out yet but should be able to by unplugging and see if the low or high beam are working I guess.
I have replaced all the relays but nothing changed.
We have thought about just putting in a new start button where we jump the start relay but both of us would rather find out why it does not start with the button on handlebar.
Getting to the ECU to check or add a ground is a pain. It’s buried under the tank and frame tubes up near the steering head but we might have to go there too. I guess that should be done nextNeither of the bikes have lived outside or been in the kind of situation that would cause corrosion but I guess any bad contact could be happening. Mine does have 94k, Bone’s only 13k and really clean.having two bikes with the same odd problem is a real stumper.
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If this is the case, is clearly not a key-immobilizer issue, likely 'starter interuptus' Lots of thread on that.
BLUF: Stock wiring doesn't deliver enough current to starter to engage and turn the engine over.
the first part of interuptus was the first thing we did. The fused wire from battery to yellow at the starter relay was done. We have not done a 16g wire from relay to solenoid, I have not seen that part of the fix before.
Also, the bike starts if jumped around the relay and uses the existing wire from relay to solenoid so why would the gauge of wire matter if it works fine when jumping the relay?
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My 07 Norge had a similar problem, intermittently though, that’s when I discovered it had already had most of the status interruptis fix done. Mine still doesn’t have the 16 ga going from start relay to solenoid, I will do that in a few weeks. My problem was in the kill switch connections.
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it shows discrepancies, saying start possible and start switch electrical errors.
Why would the GD show a different voltage that reading right off the battery. I see now why it won’t crank with not enough voltage but I used a new battery showing 12.8 before key on. Then tried another battery with a jumper hooked to a second battery but still got the low voltage signal.
Am I the new “Mr Nevada”?
(https://i.ibb.co/pJQVJM3/FDE1-A916-04-F0-4-E60-A94-F-0-CE23-CCC32-B3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJQVJM3)
Clear the errors, to show what is now on error. When it's empty, try to start and read afterwards to see if you got new errors.
Voltage shown in the dash ist always lower than measured on the battery direct.
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I have not done anything with the wire from relay to solenoid, I’ll look into that. Maybe that’s where I’m losing the amps to the starter?
I have seen a corroded connector at the solenoid cause what you are talking about. Put a 16 gauge wire on there, and a new connector.
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Had a pretty good run of not wanting to start with my 09 Norge. Starter interuptus had been done years ago. Grounds cleaned and rebolted down. Nearly new Ballistic battery one size above what was called for. Finally pulled my starter and found that the grease had gotten kind of thick and sticky in the starter. Cleaned, lubed and reassembled and has been working fine since. May not be your problem being you can jump it out. Was my problem.
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I'm eager to see how this is resolved. I had a '07 Norge with this issue. Also did the Startus Interruptus, cleaned the ground point, cleaned the starter, and dropped in a fresh battery. The issue was gone for a bit, but eventually came back...as I was selling the bike!
BTW, I consider the Norge to be a near perfect bike unless lane splitting is involved.
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Bump.
Has this problem been solved on the 'fotoguzzi' bike?
Add another one to the list.
I'm trying to sell a 2006 Breva 11 cheap. See the Swap Meet. So, of course, now the bike won't start and I can't demo or show it.
Yes, a home grown Startus Interruptus was done years ago.
Yes, brand new MotoBatt AGM in October. Normally sits on a solar maintainer.
I get just a loud CLUNK, heard and felt at the starter itself. I started attacking connections everywhere. I found two crimp spades that just freely pulled off their wires. Aha, must be it! No such luck. Rechecked every spade, every crimp, every added wire. Changed to a new automotive cube relay. The starter button system doesn't do anything except power the little electromagnetic coil within the relay. Pretty insignificant load. I even opened the older relay and burnished the contact surfaces. DeOxit sprayed everywhere. I have 12" of 12ga going direct from the battery post to the relay. I have another 12" of 12ga going from the relay to the starter spade. All crimps were re-crimped at the wires. All used spades were pinched down for better contact.
Clunk! Clunk!
Now, I also have 24" of simple 18ga wire with alligators at each end. Clamp one end at the battery post. Poke the other end directly onto the starter spade.
Crank and zoom EVERY time. Never a hesitation.
I'm stumped. The only difference between my 24" of smaller wire and my larger wires on the relay is the number of spade connectors involved and the relay internal contacts.
But I cleaned and burnished the contacts.
But I changed to another brand new relay.
But I re-crimped every wire.
Can't be the starter or solenoid or it wouldn't work reliably with my alligator jump wire.
I've manipulated every possible connection.
Any ideas?
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I posted earlier that I think the ECU may control the starter. Can anyone confirm this. Again, there was a post I think about a Norge that the ECU starter circuits had gone bad. I can't find that post.
I do hope I'm wrong and it's something simple.
Tom
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I posted earlier that I think the ECU may control the starter. Can anyone confirm this. Again, there was a post I think about a Norge that the ECU starter circuits had gone bad. I can't find that post.
Tom. Are you suggesting that the ECU normally allows the 'trigger' wire from the starter spade terminal to have a 5 second crank cycle? Are you then suggesting that an ECU failure would allow a starter spade 'spike' but not a continuous 5 second crank delivery? That might explain the initial clunk without the follow up crank. That might also explain why my alligator jumper does deliver a continuous crank signal. If the ECU starter circuit failed I wouldn't even expect the initial clunk. So, not buying that solution just yet, but sounds curious.
I'm tempted to abandon the starter relay all together and just bodge in a momentary switch somewhere else on the bike. Would have to be from a 'key-on' power wire. Otherwise tampering people could crank without a key. Surely I would do that if I were keeping it. Would prefer to get it correct if I sell.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I posted earlier that I think the ECU may control the starter. Can anyone confirm this. Again, there was a post I think about a Norge that the ECU starter circuits had gone bad. I can't find that post.
I do hope I'm wrong and it's something simple.
Tom
My understanding is that the immobilizer kills the starter, as well as the ignition and fuel.
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14 Norge here, but still having those issues. I have startus interruptus, and a new starter, big hot cranking battery and checked every connection.
When I turn it on and push the button, I get nothing. No click. Silence. I push and hold again and repeat until it connects. It will then crank and start.
I keep looking for a solution. Sometimes it cranks first push of the button, it's just a crapshoot every time.
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14 Norge here, but still having those issues. I have startus interruptus, and a new starter, big hot cranking battery and checked every connection.
When I turn it on and push the button, I get nothing. No click. Silence. I push and hold again and repeat until it connects. It will then crank and start.
I keep looking for a solution. Sometimes it cranks first push of the button, it's just a crapshoot every time.
That sounds like starter switch. I'd pull apart, clean, etc.
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Well in a way I’m relieved! Not feeling much better but if PEHayes is stumped I don’t feel so dumb. No my problem has not been fixed yet, I’m taking the weekend off. Our plan has always been to just add a second start button if all else fails but trying to sell the thing with that kind of bodge could be challenging. Plus I hate not knowing why something is not working right. According to the wiring diagram there is a wire from the start button to the ECU, and the ECU feeds the ignition relay
(https://i.ibb.co/PFXq1vY/671-B0-C45-ED99-4-F24-BC52-CCCC00-E56-D57.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PFXq1vY)
, if I’m remembering right.
I have a second ECU that I don’t know the condition of, the thing is it’s super hard to replace the one in there now it’s pretty buried..I was hoping for a solution with out swapping that out. I’ll take a closer look at that on Monday.
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Patrick, I do NOT fully understand the newer bikes. I read about them here so that I can learn something that I may or may not remember. I intended to bring up the ECU JUST in case all else failed.
YES.... A fix is to add a push/momentary button type switch between the battery and the starter solenoid. Just like you do with a jumper wire from battery to solenoid spade connector.
Here is the last thread on what may be the issue. Bison was the guy.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115288.30
Found it, original thread:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=114716.0
EDIT...And the finish I think:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115288.0
Sorry "I" can't be of great help, but maybe read the post will.
Tom
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This probably isn’t the problem but I’ve found that the starters are not well sealed and get dirty and corroded internally faster than I expected. It’s a thing I overlook so it bites me in the butt after I’ve rode in the rain sometimes
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how dos the start button work ? ground ground I recal a freind could not get his front turn sigs to work on his v50 i sold him,. the frount end not grounded except thruogh the greasy bearings I would hope you would be able to check this in about 10 mins OK? That would explain why your starter impotence mabey inject viagra in the battery last resort
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I'd try a simple $10 button, see if ECU likes it. If not bypass the ECU part of equation. It works wired direct, ECU pics up after running w/key on. Start button does not need to be in the equation. It doesn't effect imobilizer, it's bypassed too.
That's if you want to ride & not talk about whats wrong, most likely a bad pin connector somewhere.
I put a whole wiring loom on a Griso fews years back, it fixed his issues.
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I'd try a simple $10 button, see if ECU likes it. If not bypass the ECU part of equation. It works wired direct, ECU pics up after running w/key on. Start button does not need to be in the equation. It doesn't effect imobilizer, it's bypassed too.
That's if you want to ride & not talk about whats wrong, most likely a bad pin connector somewhere.
I put a whole wiring loom on a Griso fews years back, it fixed his issues.
nice, so find the wire from the button that goes to the ECU and put that direct to the wire that formerly went from relay to starter solenoid. That’s if I want to use the stock button on handlebar, right?
And then you would hold the button down instead of that goofy way of touching the button and it cranks itself, yes. Why would they even need that auto start anyway? Dumb.
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Most of the CARC bike don't auto start. They did when new but it went away. Why? who knows. All that button does is ground the relay & that's how the ecu knows. I may be wrong but dout it. You can run a hot wire button and it doesn't effect a thing.
/EDIT Guess I'm Wrong
Just studied my hi-def wiring -------- start button = 2 wires one goes to pin 28 on blue ecu connector the other to wire goes between bank angle sens & clutch switch that's it.
The kill switch turns on the relays(top of switch in diagram)
I'd make a separate circuit for starter
Looked some more, Ignition relay is the starter relay, has 2 wires go to ECU pin connector.
You could try cleaning the ECU plugs, in then out, could be all it needs BUT a pia.
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There's some pretty weird circuitry around the Start relay, Fuse A FEEDS THE FRONT AND REAR STOPLIGHT SWITCHES, I DON'T QUITE SEE HOW THEY EFFECT THE START RELAY BUT MAKE SURE THE STOP LIGHT WORKS AND APLY THE BRAKE AS YOU PUSH START.
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I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.
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I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.
then that would crank starter even if the key was off?
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There's some pretty weird circuitry around the Start relay, Fuse A FEEDS THE FRONT AND REAR STOPLIGHT SWITCHES, I DON'T QUITE SEE HOW THEY EFFECT
I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.
I thought all that back on page one but wasn’t sure myself how crazy weird it is.
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So I’m backing up and ask if I can do a simple fix like this. Since I know it cranks by jumping the yellow to orange at the ignition relay can I just put a push button switch there and be done?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Norge/i-KppMtc2/0/3427f4a5/M/2023020808564906--9199551423737238810-M.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/Norge/i-KppMtc2/A)
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I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.
THIS HERE
Unless it is at the ECU plugs which haven't been checked, I found that easiest but cutting the tie wraps, then it is easier.
BUT if you put a button between the wires check and make sure wiring & such are big enough. Make sure it's off w/ ignition off.
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I just looked at the relay circuit, it's the yellow & orange like you said. It just bypasses the ECU
That should be safe to do. Like a manual start.
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By way of follow-up and transparency. My 2006 Breva 1100 failure to crank/start SEEMS to be solved (tap wood).
My bike would CLUNK maybe ten times in a row and then MIGHT crank and start. Unreliable. Might just CLUNK forever. I measured voltage at the solenoid spade. It spiked with the button and CLUNK but immediately went back to zero. Only to spike again on the next button and CLUNK.
I spent most of Saturday with it. This bike had a roll-yer-own Startus-Interruptus relay system many years back. I began by closely checking the design and implementation of that bodge fix. Several of the wires had spade crimps and the wires just easily pulled right out of the crimps. Great, that must be my issue. Weak connections. New crimp terminals and rock hard crimping. No change in performance. WHAA!
I did everything I could with no change. I gave up on solving or correcting the original Guzzi abomination and began to design a second parallel circuit with an in-line momentary crank switch. Direct from battery to solenoid spade. Just need to hide the switch somewhere with easy reach access. Just design and planning, no parts shopping just yet.
While at it, I found and pulled the original starter relay from its socket. Sealed unit so I can't improve its internal contact quality. I cleaned and used DeOxit on the four spade terminals and in the four receiver spades in the socket housing plug. Reinstalled the stock relay and I have NOT been able to duplicate a CLUNK ever since. Cranks and starts first time, every time. Day One repetitively reliable.
I'm going to buy a new stock starter relay. I'm going to probe in and bend the spade receiver sockets a little to ensure quality connection. I'm going to park the bike for several days to burn the surface charge off the battery. I'm confident with this, but I will report back after several days of battery decline. Surely the weak/loose crimp connectors were a problem, but my issue persisted after correction. Removing and cleaning the stock relay seemed to be the final fix. Time will tell.
If this rears its head again, I will be going straight to the bypass momentary switch solution.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.
and why is the main fuel injection relay different from all the rest of the relays including the aux FI relay?
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I cleaned and used DeOxit on the four spade terminals and in the four receiver spades in the socket housing plug. Reinstalled the stock relay and I have NOT been able to duplicate a CLUNK ever since. Cranks and starts first time, every time. Day One repetitively reliable.
I can't tell you how many things I've fixed with Caig DeOxit. :smiley: That stuff is magic in a can. Mark at MGC called me the other day telling me he'd already fixed a couple of electrical problems with it after I bad mouthed him for using WD40.. :smiley:
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I've dealt w/this since 07, and I would NEVER buy a CARC Guzzi because of it. The only way I've found is to bypass their ECU system for starting. I tell riders to carry a wire w/2 alligator clips so to continue w/it fails.
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Well, sorry folks. That didn't last long. Started repeatedly yesterday when it was intermittently on the tender charger and so had a top level charge state.
This morning, nothing but CLUNK once again. I tested at the battery with a good meter. 12.88 volts. Turn on the key (no headlamp yet) and the voltage drops to 12.35. Hit the CLUNK button and the voltage drops to 12.20.
Meanwhile I have some old batteries laying around. I have a Westco AGM from 2013 that I removed from an EV. Haven't charged that one in six months. Sitting on the floor under my bench at 12.60 volt. Hook that up with jumper cables (no advance charging) and the Breva cranks and starts instantly. I also have an old H/F jump box that I haven't recharged in about six months. Hook that up and the Breva cranks and starts instantly. Remove the jumper cables and nothing but a CLUNK.
This is a four month MotoBatt. I may try for a warranty. Meanwhile I'll put in another battery and also set up a bypass momentary switch.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Just in an attempt to push away some of the mud in the water…
Is there ever a time where the problem occurs with the jumper leads on ? Surely it couldn’t be some fault in the battery could it ?
The battery could show a good 12.5 volts at test, but the connection of either + or - poles may have a compromised connection internally, such that the high amps cannot be delivered to the starter.
A bit lame I’ll concede, but if it jump starts reliably, I can see no other reason.
Next time it does it at home, I’d creep up on it and jump it off the car battery. If that works, I’d swap batteries with another reliable bike and see if the problem follows the battery.
I swear every time I hear that “CLUNK” sound, it takes me back to the horrific events in the camp ground at Millau in France, it’s just a hopeless feeling….
Seems to me that I’d delay fitting the jury rigged starter switch, until it fails on a known good battery.
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Yes the clunk can happen with jumper cables, I tried 2 different batteries jumping with fully charged new ones.
I had to remove the side panel just to access the spade connection on back of starter, ground cable looked like new.
I put on a heavier gauge wire to the spade but haven’t tried it yet. I want to add another relay like zoom zoom did on a different thread.
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Patrick, hopefully it's just the battery. My HD does have starting issues when a battery is going bad. Motobatt Bought a 20 size for my bike and a friend bought a 30 size for his touring. I think my battery lasted about a year and his was not far behind mine. Motobatt is supposed to be very good batteries, that is why I bought it.
Tom
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Yes the clunk can happen with jumper cables, I tried 2 different batteries jumping with fully charged new ones.
I had to remove the side panel just to access the spade connection on back of starter, ground cable looked like new.
I put on a heavier gauge wire to the spade but haven’t tried it yet. I want to add another relay like zoom zoom did on a different thread.
Bugger….
Have you had the starter motor off the check the brushes and related internals ?
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Is there ever a time where the problem occurs with the jumper leads on ? Surely it couldn’t be some fault in the battery could it ?
such that the high amps cannot be delivered to the starter.
A bit lame I’ll concede, but if it jump starts reliably, I can see no other reason.
HUZO, that is exactly how mine is performing. When it CLUNKS, any other meager battery can jump and start it. It never fails with jumpers from another battery. Beginning to be obvious that it is my battery. A four month MotoBatt AGM. Not cheap. They have a warranty, but that is going to take forever with back and forth across country.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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https://www.amazon.com/ExpertPower-YTX30L-BS-Motorcycle-Replaces-Sportsman/dp/B08C9FM586/ref=sr_1_8?crid=32O63EYS9YJ88&keywords=ytx30l-bs+battery&qid=1676330632&sprefix=Ytx30%2Caps%2C268&sr=8-8&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc
I just stuck this one in the old EV. Fair price in todays world.
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Been following this thread and it is battery related - MY Best battery recommendation is using "ChromeBattery" made here in the US and available on Amazon also. Great price as I just paid $58 for my Norge battery and comes with a 100% 18 month warranty! Can't beat that anywhere.
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That's what I got for my Versys 650. Great deal.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Chrome Batteries are made in the US.
https://www.chromebattery.com/
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I don't give up easily. Startus Interruptus is SOLVED.
My 2006 Breva 11 cranks and starts with a 100% battery. Diminish by the slightest in any way (like overnight parking) and all you get is the dreaded CLUNK. I surmise that the ECU is playing a role in the start function. One would normally think that closing the circuit at the start button would send a continuous signal to the starter solenoid spade terminal. Not so with Guzzi. Yes, the signal is sent, but somehow the ECU detects the slight drop in voltage or amperage and it releases or opens the starter circuit. Even though you are still holding the button! There is a HUGE discrepancy between the volt/amp specs required to crank the starter vs. what the ECU thinks is ideal. Is it a sloppy software code line? Is it poor connections along the stream? Even if you have a proper relay for a Startus Interruptus bypass, the ECU can still cause a drop in the solenoid spade signal wire.
By using a jumper wire directly between the battery +ve post and the starter solenoid spade connector, I've determined that almost any battery condition can actually crank and start the bike. Its just a matter of getting past the ECU logic.
I removed the spade wire from the starter solenoid and cut off the crimp spade female. I took another 18" or so of similar wire, twisted it to the original (actually, from the one coming from the Startus Interruptus bodge) and crimped BOTH of them into one spade female connector and reinstalled. I already had a rather standard Battery Tender fused SAE kit wired to the battery for easier occasional battery charge so I used that as my power source. I purchased a very small, momentary, waterproof button switch and mounted that on a plastic flange behind the battery box. I wanted that button out of sight for the casual observer but close enough to allow gloved access while astride the bike. I didn't want to get off, use tools, remove the seat, remove luggage, etc. etc. Just a simple, immediate bypass to duplicate what the handlebar button was supposed to be doing. I added another SAE pigtail to power the little switch. The two SAE plugs stay together so the stater is always operable. The SAE plugs can be pulled apart for battery charge, phone charge, etc. I probably could have hidden the wiring a bit more if I were willing to drill or cut into the plastic bits.
Yes, this circuit is always hot and anyone could push the button to crank the engine. Even when the key is off or the bike is in gear. Who would do that? If you don't like that, separate the two SAE plugs or remove the seat and pull the Battery Tender inline fuse. Abandons simplicity. The switch and wires are probably substandard, but the load is typically only 5 seconds and I double we'll melt anything.
That is why I tucked the button as far out of sight as possible, especially with the bike leaned left on the sidestand. I could have put it under the seat but that would eliminate the immediate need solution for a stall in traffic. Here are a few pics. Crude, but functional. I bought a package of six of the little momentary push buttons. Pay my postage and you can have one.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
(https://i.ibb.co/nPmkjFw/MVC-603-L2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nPmkjFw)
(https://i.ibb.co/qYqWZYP/MVC-604-L2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qYqWZYP)
(https://i.ibb.co/cXw5376/MVC-605L.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cXw5376)
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That’s just about perfect and exactly what I’ve been planning to do when I get back to work on mine. One thing tho, I will put the switch on the right side so I can hold in the clutch while starting. That way I can even start in gear, Right?
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One more question. Are you not using the ignition relay and just run a fused wire the button then to the solenoid?
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I thought about the right side, but the CLUNK is more likely to occur first thing in the morning on a cold, overnight motor. Thus, I need a little throttle work to help the starter. I suppose I could use my left hand on the throttle if necessary.
Yes, exactly as to wiring. Battery-fuse-SAE-SAE-switch-solenoid spade. Bypasses everything else on the bike.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Pat, thanks for your hard work and clear explanation!
here's another question. if the ECU has this voltage problem could the issue be fixed by the gurus like Beetle and (Mienhoff?) when they write new maps or dont they have that kind of control and can only tweak the fueling?
it seems like a real fix should be made if it can be written into the ECU.
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if the ECU has this voltage problem could the issue be fixed by the gurus
I can't answer that. I doubt it is a software issue as it clearly doesn't happen to all bikes. There must be a reason why a 12v signal is sent downstream to the starter solenoid spade and then suddenly that signal goes open. I'm still pressing the button. Something has interceded. It could just be some Molex gang pin connector. But which one? And how does it get loose or corroded. Why does it send a burst signal to produce the CLUNK but then break open to prevent cranking. Maybe the software code has some lines that specify minimum line voltage or minimum line amperage. Breach the limits and the signal is turned off. Just don't know.
All I do know is that it is NOT the fault of the starter or its piggyback solenoid. When I went to CLUNK mode, I used short jumper cables to hook up an old 2013 EV battery laying under my bench. I'm certainly not adding more voltage and amperage. Press the standard start button and it cranks/starts quite normally. My AGM battery is only four months old, but it clearly isn't up to the task. Just add in some other old battery and it works fine. I'll be installing another new battery, but I did the push button bypass just to be sure this issue doesn't strand the bike somewhere. Belts and braces as they say.
It is also not the Startus Interruptus fix because the the signal driving that relay is the very same original stock signal wire that the factory put on the solenoid spade. When that signal goes open, even the Startus Interruptus relay has to stop working and you lose signal to the solenoid.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Good on YA! PE Hayes for figuring out and fixing one of the most common persistent MG issues that has been an issue for too many years.
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One thing tho, I will put the switch on the right side so I can hold in the clutch while starting. That way I can even start in gear, Right?
FOTOGUZZI: I've thought further about that. I'd like to hear other experience, but I sense that the CLUNK feature usually or normally occurs after a period of sitting or parking. Overnight? After work? Once the bike is started and run for a commute or errand, the alternator puts a nice surface charge on the battery. If you stall in traffic, you are thus less likely to get a CLUNK. Re-starting with the stock Guzzi button is highly likely. With six bikes I'm more concerned about parking for several days and then getting a morning CLUNK. Thus, I need the hand throttle, and thus my bypass button goes to the left side.
YMMV. Does anyone get the CLUNK during an incidental traffic stall.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I've installed this wiring on all of the Guzzi's except for the Norge as it has the MPH device. If I want to bypass the handlebar switch, the light blue female connector is touched to the power nut on the starter. No one would guess what this is and the bike won't start without the key.
(https://i.ibb.co/ydDZV9s/62769-ADF-CCE5-4532-A120-40947-D049809.jpg)
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Chrome Batteries are made in the US.
https://www.chromebattery.com/
They aren't US made, but do seem to be good quality batteries. It reads under "Technical details": Country of Origin China
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If you want a battery mostly made in the USA, buy an Odyssey battery.
"ODYSSEY batteries are manufactured to strict quality standards in five facilities globally: Warrensburg, Missouri and Springfield, Missouri in the United States; Newport, Wales in the United Kingdom, and Arras, France."
https://www.odysseybattery.com/about/
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I've installed this wiring on all of the Guzzi's except for the Norge as it has the MPH device. If I want to bypass the handlebar switch, the light blue female connector is touched to the power nut on the starter. No one would guess what this is and the bike won't start without the key.
(https://i.ibb.co/ydDZV9s/62769-ADF-CCE5-4532-A120-40947-D049809.jpg)
looks good but there is no access like that on the Norge, it’s hidden behind the side panel.
(https://i.ibb.co/vw746dh/D6154104-54-F1-4-E21-A299-313930-C83647.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vw746dh)
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FOTOGUZZI: I've thought further about that. I'd like to hear other experience, but I sense that the CLUNK feature usually or normally occurs after a period of sitting or parking. Overnight? After work? Once the bike is started and run for a commute or errand, the alternator puts a nice surface charge on the battery. If you stall in traffic, you are thus less likely to get a CLUNK. Re-starting with the stock Guzzi button is highly likely. With six bikes I'm more concerned about parking for several days and then getting a morning CLUNK. Thus, I need the hand throttle, and thus my bypass button goes to the left side.
YMMV. Does anyone get the CLUNK during an incidental traffic stall.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
I don’t have the stall in traffic experience. Bu on all the FI bikes I’ve had I never had to fiddle with the throttle to start, cold or not. I thought you’re not supposed to give throttle before it starts? So I’m sticking with the button on the right side.
So, if I wire in a button like you did Pat, can the original wire to the solenoid be connected too? And leave the ignition relay all connected as stock.? So the added button would only be used when the handlebar button is not working.
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So, if I wire in a button like you did Pat, can the original wire to the solenoid be connected too? And leave the ignition relay all connected as stock.? So the added button would only be used when the handlebar button is not working.
Yes. That's the idea. With the original wire still in place you can always use the handlebar button (provided your battery and connections are up to the task. In fact I cut off the crimp terminal that was at the solenoid spade. I then used a larger (yellow) crimp terminal and was able to blend or squeeze two wires in before crimping. Either of those two wires can deliver a 12v signal to the solenoid based on immediate need. I only need to use my bypass button if the handlebar button fails to perform. I can then switch systems simply by pushing the bypass momentary button.
We're talking two different start failure issues here. The original problem that people confronted was that the stock signal being delivered to the solenoid spade was too weak; either in voltage or amperage. While the obvious symptom was "no crank" it was mostly silent. You might hear a very faint "click" up under the seat. If you reached in with a finger, you could feel the stock starter relay work its insides mechanically. If you measured, you would likely detect that the solenoid spade wire had continuous voltage. It just wasn't enough to do any work at the solenoid. The concept of the SI relay fix helped to boost or improve the signal to the solenoid spade and solved most start problems.
Later, people began to experience a different symptom. Still there was no cranking, but now there was a very obvious LOUD CLUNK coming directly from the top of the starter motor itself. Sound caused by the inner workings of the solenoid. In this scenario, the signal to the solenoid spade is NOT CONTINUOUS. There is a burst of voltage which allows the solenoid to draw in its big electromagnet and produce the CLUNK noise. But then instantly the signal in that wire drops to zero. We think it is being intercepted and cut off by some service of the ECU. With no electrical signal in that wire, the SI relay releases back open and then even the SI fix won't help.
So, what is your failure scenario? Quiet CLICK no crank? Or loud CLUNK no crank. If you have the former, I would certainly begin with installing an SI relay. Easy and cheap enough to do your own. Or buy the MPH version. I only moved on to the external bypass switch because I had the CLUNK system and the SI (already in place) doesn't solve that.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Glad you got everything working but I will add something with no ill will. Get rid of the blue splicer. My old Dodge had those that the PO used to splice in trailer wiring. I fought corrosion in them for a couple of years causing trailer lights to not work. It took me a couple of hours to add a bunch of wire after cutting out all the corrosion and soldering and weather protection. It was amazing how far up the wires the corrosion went.
kk
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We both have the thunk problem. (Reply #3, I know that was awhile ago)
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agreed on getting rid of the blue splicer, BC,
and Odyssey batteries are the good sheet, man.
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and Odyssey batteries are the good sheet, man.
This thread started about Norge but also includes Breva 11. AFAIK, Odyssey do not make a battery to fit the Breva 11. If someone has such in place I'd like to hear about it.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Possibly, but not yet available?
https://www.odysseybatteries.com/odyssey/ods-agm30l.html
(https://i.ibb.co/MRwRX59/307-CE064-871-C-4212-ABC4-26-EDA7-FA9410.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MRwRX59)
(https://i.ibb.co/LS7nDRK/43-A93279-2-D6-B-474-E-A851-E2-E9-F3-EA507-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LS7nDRK)
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This thread started about Norge but also includes Breva 11. AFAIK, Odyssey do not make a battery to fit the Breva 11. If someone has such in place I'd like to hear about it.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
I have a 680 in my Norge but it takes some minor modification of the ground and positive straps.
The blue splicer has been there for years but I certainly understand why they can be a problem, but this one has never been an issue.
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looks good but there is no access like that on the Norge, it’s hidden behind the side panel.
(https://i.ibb.co/tCqL56M/C5051676-0-C93-4-D32-8305-F534-DBFA433-C.jpg)
Yes, less room than on the Tonti framed bikes but still easy accessible.
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Maybe easy for some but I could never get my hand in there to get at the spade connector much less get it back on the pin. I can’t even see it in your pic.
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What I’ve done with success when I don’t want to change original wiring is to add a relay. The original wire that triggers the starter solenoid now triggers the relay which gets its power straight from the battery. It then triggers the solenoid.
Those blue snap on the wire connectors are for temporary connections only and are not good even for that.
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What I’ve done with success when I don’t want to change original wiring is to add a relay. The original wire that triggers the starter solenoid now triggers the relay which gets its power straight from the battery. It then triggers the solenoid.
That is essentially what the Startus Interruptus modification does. You can buy a kit from MPH in Texas or you can build your own as you have done.
However, for some of us, not even that will solve the CLUNK issue. Some models (Breva 11) have an auto crank feature (puhleez). Touch the handlebar button and the motor cranks for several seconds on its own. You don't need to hold the button to continue the cranking. Problem is that somewhere in the wiring or connector blocks or the ECU software something intercedes to abruptly cut off the several second cranking feature. After a few milliseconds you no longer have a 12v cranking signal in the solenoid spade wire. Zero volts. So, it doesn't matter that you have installed an SI relay. Even that relay drops when the trigger wire signal is cut. In these rare circumstances, you have to come up with some bypass alternative directly from battery to solenoid without utilizing the original crank trigger wire at all. The easiest roadside emergency alternative is to carry 3' of jumper wire, remove your seat, and short the battery directly to the solenoid spade to begin cranking. Quite a nuisance. If the problem persists, build in a momentary switch as I have done above and you have an instant, functional alternative to the failed Guzzi cranking.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Maybe easy for some but I could never get my hand in there to get at the spade connector much less get it back on the pin. I can’t even see it in your pic.
You can't see the spade connector because I have not modified the wiring on this bike as it has never been a problem getting it started. But the hot wire nut is accessible. Anyway, good luck with the problem.
"Those blue snap on the wire connectors are for temporary connections only and are not good even for that."
And it's been there for about a dozen years as these wires are only used if the starter switch doesn't work, which has been rare on this bike. It's way better than crossing two screwdrivers to jump the starter in the field.
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You can't see the spade connector because I have not modified the wiring on this bike as it has never been a problem getting it started. But the hot wire nut is accessible. Anyway, good luck with the problem.
"Those blue snap on the wire connectors are for temporary connections only and are not good even for that."
And it's been there for about a dozen years as these wires are only used if the starter switch doesn't work, which has been rare on this bike. It's way better than crossing two screwdrivers to jump the starter in the field.
That’s a good way to use them then. They are still ugly though
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I finally installed a new battery and the CLUNK seems gone for now. It was also gone just after the old battery was removed from bench charger assistance. We'll have to see how easily it returns when the bike is parked for several days on the new battery. Meanwhile, my starter 'bypass' circuit continues to work just fine. But there are new discoveries.
A few messages above we discussed the merits of installing the starter bypass momentary on the left side or right side. This is 2006 Breva 1100. My preference is to have the bypass momentary on the left so I can use my right hand for throttle advance (more later). Someone commented that you don't need any throttle when starting an FI bike. Well, maybe not.
When you have a bike with the 'autostart' cranking feature, unlike older bikes, the handlebar button does not send signal directly to the starter solenoid. The hand button signal goes to the ECU and the computer coding dictates what to do. That includes cranking the starter but also includes throttle advance via stepper motor and mixture enrichment via injectors. Yes, on a factory normal functioning bike you just tap the button and let go. The motor comes to life under full control of the ECU.
Now we introduce my starter bypass momentary button direct from battery to starter solenoid. The starter engages and cranks much more reliably, even with a weakened battery. No CLUNK. But the ECU itself is no longer triggered by input from the handlebar button. I have no way to measure or verify, but I certainly sense that cold mixture is wrong and throttle opening is wrong. Cranking is wonderful but actual 'starting' struggles a bit. That starting struggle can easily be offset by simply advancing the hand throttle a little, just as you would have done with an old carb bike. As soon as the motor starts and revs a few times it settles into a normal idle and whatever functions were omitted by the bypass starter seems to correct itself and run fine.
I did have one incident where the bike started and a red warning triangle appeared at the top of the dash. I ran the bike a few moments to warm the motor and let the alternator give a little battery boost. I then turned the key off. Turned back on and used the handlebar start button. No CLUNK now and the red triangle went away. I can only presume that the red triangle was detecting and complaining about something erroneous in the programmed start sequencing due to crank bypass.
YMMV. Keep up the research. At least the bypass fully prevents or overcomes the CLUNK stranding failure on overnight trips.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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The Norge and Breva don't have a choke?
-AJ
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You make a lot of sense Patrick.. I may need to add a little throttle too when starting. Still waiting for new head exhaust studs before attempting to start.
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The Norge and Breva don't have a choke?
No choke, no throttle advancer. The system is 'autostart' like many modern cars. I don't know about the Norge, just the Breva 11 which is new to me. I don't know if other, more-modern Guzzis include this 'feature'.
The 'autostart' feature of my Breva 11 is fully controlled by the ECU. Turn on the key. Tap the start button. Walk away. The bike cranks on its own continuously for about 5 seconds. The ECU controls fuel level AND throttle opening via stepper motor. It either starts or it doesn't (generally does). You are not touching the bike.
Apparently this ECU intervention is responsible for the loud CLUNK and failure to crank. If the ECU senses something is not up to snuff it cancels or interrupts the 12v signal to the starter solenoid. The ECU doesn't care if whether or not you are still pressing the start button. The starter circuit obeys the ECU, not your thumb.
We all know that electrical connections weaken with age/heat/corrosive atmosphere. I have two new, quality AGM batteries. They each meter out at 12.9 volts resting. Should start any bike. When installed in the Breva 11, there is a dash numerical display for battery voltage. The displays shows 12.2 volts. Somewhere in the bikes wiring, gang connectors, or circuitry there is an age related loss of voltage. The ECU interprets this as an inadequate battery. The cranking signal is sent to the starter solenoid which pulls in creating the audible CLUNK. The sudden demand load drops the line voltage even more. The ECU detects the additional voltage drop and suddenly cuts off the entire signal to the starter. Result is no crank and no start.
I could dig in and correct every connection in the wire circuit in an effort to improve voltage sensing, but what if the false voltage reading is originating inside the ECU? I chose the easier route of adding the momentary starter bypass and live with the bikes foibles.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I've been reading this whole thread with absolute fascination with no idea why. Amazing how complicated the bikes got in just 5 years. Makes me appreciate my California even more! Hope your work around is a final solution.
-AJ
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I could dig in and correct every connection in the wire circuit in an effort to improve voltage sensing, but what if the false voltage reading is originating inside the ECU? I chose the easier route of adding the momentary starter bypass and live with the bikes foibles.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Given that my 2015 ECU on my Griso gave up the ghost on the stepper motor pins after barely 6K miles but over 7 years, I wouldn't be surprised if an even more ancient ECU on the Breva is starting to deteriorate also. When the bike is running however, are any errors stored in Guzzidiag that you can read?
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As an owner of an 07 Norge manufactured in 2006 with now 49,000+ Miles on it - i am acutely interested in following this thread. PE Hayes you have distilled it down to what should be a sticky feature for all CARC owners of same and near vintage. Good on-ya.
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Just to sort of put a period on this whole situation. I ended up adding a small start button to start when to handlebar button is not working. We added a relay, tapped the yellow wire from the ignition relay and the orange fused line from the battery (the one from the startus interuptus fix) at the ignition relay without disturbing the original relay so theoretically the handlebar button can still work if the ECU sees enough voltage. We tried the jump by adding second fully charged battery and saw that the ECU was getting 12.1 volts, so still not enough to work. I now can spin the starter but the way we did it only when the key is on.
Now waiting on new exhaust header studs from Cadre before I can wrap everything up and wait for spring when I can bed in the new rings.
(https://i.ibb.co/tzPzn7y/F6516-AA3-8-C40-4-E80-9-A7-E-2-ABF79-DA8107.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tzPzn7y)
It will look better on Bones’ red Norge 🙂
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I hope it's weather proof. Only thing I can think of, sounds good.
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I though of that waterproof question, it’s all shrink wrapped in back and I do have a full waterproof switch in reserve but it’s way big and ugly so I’m starting with this one.
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Foto, Im curious. I like your safety/ theft prevention by adding the necessity of the key to be required. But what happens if the bike is running and the button is pushed by accident?
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Well that would probably be near catastrophic to the starter gear at least.. at first I wanted one of those switches with the cover like aircraft have but I couldn’t find one at the ax man surplus store. May have to look into that tho.guess I should get something like these.
(https://i.ibb.co/r6DyQKg/68-C191-D2-315-E-4876-A368-243857119706.png) (https://ibb.co/r6DyQKg)
(https://i.ibb.co/rxyKZHQ/45554500-068-F-4182-AB75-3-DFFE611-B0-F9.png) (https://ibb.co/rxyKZHQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Vpr7PW7/BC9913-A0-5-BF5-4177-8-A24-437-CFB74-A48-A.png) (https://ibb.co/Vpr7PW7)
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Foto, I had several of those at one time, left over from a stash from my Air Force days 1973-77, Gave many away,along with the waterproof toggle switches they protected. They are not invisible, and quite hard to camouflage, especially where you have yours mounted. But if you mounted it on or in the fairing/ dash panels it would look cool, but still be very visible. However, since you have maintained the Key Lock component requirement ,seems like it wouldn’t matter where you put it. My 07 Norge hasn’t exhibited these problems yet,but seeing as it is showing up, might be a good idea to prepare for it as I get around to preseason maintenance.
Maybe in your spare time, you or some other talented member will come up with a kit complete with idiot proof instructions like the Status interuptus fix, in preparation for those of us with CRAC bikes who will eventually need to do fix this system failure.
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Bypass momentary start switch saved my bacon!!!
I rode the Breva to the hardware store. When I arrived there was a Harley with its seat off and the owner searching customers for jumper cables. When he had arrived, ee had killed his motor with the handlebar kill switch. Went in side shopping with the master power switch still on. Battery now too weak to crank.
I can fix this! Brand new battery on the Breva. Hooked up some cables, but still not enough power to crank the Harley. I started and ran the engine up high to get more out of the alternator. Still wouldn't crank the Harley. Another customer came along and said he would bring over a big diesel pickup so I went into the store to do my shopping.
When I came out, the Harley was gone. I boarded the Breva, pushed the button, and NOTHING. No clunk, no click, no nothing. I used my bypass switch and started right up. I drove home 5 miles to contemplate diagnostics. The Breva has a voltmeter if you know where to find it. I rode home at 11.7 volts and no increase. Yikes!
Quick inspection showed a blown 30amp main fuse. Replaced that and all good. No damage done. Blown fuse killed the starter circuit and the alternator circuit. But the ECU and fuel pump were still functional. Glad I had the accessory starter bypass.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I don't have a B11 anymore but this sort of thread is always interesting and educating
I was wondering where the functionality of the auto crank lives.
Ie if you push the start button but the auto crank logic thinks that the bike has spin for 5 seconds and turns the juice off
Also in my industrial gas turbine world a sensor spiking the control system can cause a world of pain.
I wonder if something unexpected like (say) the crank sensor could be causing a problem
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We added a relay, tapped the yellow wire from the ignition relay and the orange fused line from the battery (the one from the startus interuptus fix) at the ignition relay without disturbing the original relay so theoretically the handlebar button can still work if the ECU sees enough voltage.
I'll call this SI v2.0. I did the SI v1.0 by tapping in to the yellow wire in the small starter relay with a direct fused connection to batt+. After that I got the solenoid Clunk. The orange wire on the starter relay (next to the yellow wire) is connected to the solenoid. It is only powered for a few seconds when the Clunk happens.
Where did you say you picked up the keyed hot wire to power your new momentary switch? I think it makes sense to have a keyed + if I can find one easily. Otherwise I'll just come from the battery at the yellow wire from SI v1.0.
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I'll call this SI v2.0. I did the SI v1.0 by tapping in to the yellow wire in the small starter relay with a direct fused connection to batt+. After that I got the solenoid Clunk. The orange wire on the starter relay (next to the yellow wire) is connected to the solenoid. It is only powered for a few seconds when the Clunk happens.
Where did you say you picked up the keyed hot wire to power your new momentary switch? I think it makes sense to have a keyed + if I can find one easily. Otherwise I'll just come from the battery at the yellow wire from SI v1.0.
see if this makes sense, if not I will describe it.
(https://i.ibb.co/h8S6PG8/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h8S6PG8)
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Ok. So you're using the yellow from the start relay for your switched hot . I was confused because you mentioned an orange wire. Thanks
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Orange is what I used for the fused link from battery.
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Don’t mount your switch where I did at first. I kept bumping it when pedaling the bike around in the garage.
(https://i.ibb.co/M61mYWS/IMG-7087.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M61mYWS)
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What's wrong with on the dash or starter cover.
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Don’t mount your switch where I did at first. I kept bumping it when pedaling the bike around in the garage.
(https://i.ibb.co/M61mYWS/IMG-7087.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M61mYWS)
That was my first thought when I saw that, but I'm a clutz...., lol.
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The dash would be fine. I just tucked it under seat since the handlebar button decided to work now that it’s spring.
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I'm going to try coming out of the battery box, under the seat. Then open an access port in the right side black plastic panel that hides the shock. I hope to reach it while sitting on the bike, not be able to bump it on accident and keep it somewhat hidden. And it looks easy.
GuzziSteve:
I looked at the starter cover. Not much room down there to work. The cover is tight to the starter. Dash would work. Just more wire.
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It’s a Norge, so just a discreet black push button mounted on the acres of black plastic surrounding the instruments.
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That is essentially what the Startus Interruptus modification does. You can buy a kit from MPH in Texas or you can build your own as you have done.
However, for some of us, not even that will solve the CLUNK issue. Some models (Breva 11) have an auto crank feature (puhleez). Touch the handlebar button and the motor cranks for several seconds on its own. You don't need to hold the button to continue the cranking. Problem is that somewhere in the wiring or connector blocks or the ECU software something intercedes to abruptly cut off the several second cranking feature. After a few milliseconds you no longer have a 12v cranking signal in the solenoid spade wire. Zero volts. So, it doesn't matter that you have installed an SI relay. Even that relay drops when the trigger wire signal is cut. In these rare circumstances, you have to come up with some bypass alternative directly from battery to solenoid without utilizing the original crank trigger wire at all. The easiest roadside emergency alternative is to carry 3' of jumper wire, remove your seat, and short the battery directly to the solenoid spade to begin cranking. Quite a nuisance. If the problem persists, build in a momentary switch as I have done above and you have an instant, functional alternative to the failed Guzzi cranking.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Why is the term “momentary switch” used ?
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As an owner of an 07 Norge manufactured in 2006 with now 49,000+ Miles on it - i am acutely interested in following this thread. PE Hayes you have distilled it down to what should be a sticky feature for all CARC owners of same and near vintage. Good on-ya.
Yep…
‘07 Norge,
220,000 km
It’s only a matter of time… :clock: :popcorn:
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Why is the term “momentary switch” used ?
Technical terminology. That's what you need for a starter circuit. Mostly there are two kinds of electrical switches. A typical push button ON/OFF button will click on and stay on. You don't need to hold it. If you want it OFF you have to push it again to click off. The same thing as a lever toggle switch but in button format.
A momentary switch is spring-loaded. You push ON but you have to hold it. As soon as you release pressure it goes back to OFF. Hence, it is called 'momentary' because it only connects for the moment you wish. That is the kind of button you need in a starter circuit. (It is also possible to buy a momentary OFF switch which would stay ON until you push and hold it for a momentary OFF disconnect. Not a practical application here.). Your horn button is also a typical momentary switch.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Technical terminology. That's what you need for a starter circuit. Mostly there are two kinds of electrical switches. A typical push button ON/OFF button will click on and stay on. You don't need to hold it. If you want it OFF you have to push it again to click off. The same thing as a lever toggle switch but in button format.
A momentary switch is spring-loaded. You push ON but you have to hold it. As soon as you release pressure it goes back to OFF. Hence, it is called 'momentary' because it only connects for the moment you wish. That is the kind of button you need in a starter circuit. (It is also possible to buy a momentary OFF switch which would stay ON until you push and hold it for a momentary OFF disconnect. Not a practical application here.). Your horn button is also a typical momentary switch.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Thanks mate.