Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start

[fotoguzzi]

You make a lot of sense Patrick.. I may need to add a little throttle too when starting. Still waiting for new head exhaust studs before attempting to start.

[pehayes]

The Norge and Breva don't have a choke?

No choke, no throttle advancer.  The system is 'autostart' like many modern cars.  I don't know about the Norge, just the Breva 11 which is new to me.  I don't know if other, more-modern Guzzis include this 'feature'.

The 'autostart' feature of my Breva 11 is fully controlled by the ECU.  Turn on the key.  Tap the start button.  Walk away.  The bike cranks on its own continuously for about 5 seconds.  The ECU controls fuel level AND throttle opening via stepper motor.  It either starts or it doesn't (generally does).  You are not touching the bike.

Apparently this ECU intervention is responsible for the loud CLUNK and failure to crank.  If the ECU senses something is not up to snuff it cancels or interrupts the 12v signal to the starter solenoid.  The ECU doesn't care if whether or not you are still pressing the start button.   The starter circuit obeys the ECU, not your thumb.

We all know that electrical connections weaken with age/heat/corrosive atmosphere.  I have two new, quality AGM batteries.  They each meter out at 12.9 volts resting.  Should start any bike.  When installed in the Breva 11, there is a dash numerical display for battery voltage.  The displays shows 12.2 volts.  Somewhere in the bikes wiring, gang connectors, or circuitry there is an age related loss of voltage.  The ECU interprets this as an inadequate battery.  The cranking signal is sent to the starter solenoid which pulls in creating the audible CLUNK.  The sudden demand load drops the line voltage even more.  The  ECU detects the additional voltage drop and suddenly cuts off the entire signal to the starter.  Result is no crank and no start.

I could dig in and correct every connection in the wire circuit in an effort to improve voltage sensing, but what if the false voltage reading is originating inside the ECU?  I chose the easier route of adding the momentary starter bypass and live with the bikes foibles.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[AJ Huff]

I've been reading this whole thread with absolute fascination with no idea why. Amazing how complicated the bikes got in just 5 years. Makes me appreciate my California even more! Hope your work around is a final solution.

-AJ

[PJPR01]

I could dig in and correct every connection in the wire circuit in an effort to improve voltage sensing, but what if the false voltage reading is originating inside the ECU?  I chose the easier route of adding the momentary starter bypass and live with the bikes foibles.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Given that my 2015 ECU on my Griso gave up the ghost on the stepper motor pins after barely 6K miles but over 7 years, I wouldn't be surprised if an even more ancient ECU on the Breva is starting to deteriorate also.  When the bike is running however, are any errors stored in Guzzidiag that you can read?

[SemperVee]

  As an owner of an 07 Norge manufactured in 2006 with now 49,000+ Miles on it -  i am acutely interested in following this thread.  PE Hayes you have distilled it down to what should be a sticky feature for all CARC owners of same and near vintage.   Good on-ya. 

[fotoguzzi]

Just to sort of put a period on this whole situation. I ended up adding a small start button to start when to handlebar button is not working. We added a relay, tapped the yellow wire from the ignition relay and the orange fused line from the battery (the one from the startus interuptus fix) at the ignition relay without disturbing the original relay so theoretically the handlebar button can still work if the ECU sees enough voltage. We tried the jump by adding second fully charged battery and saw that the ECU was getting 12.1 volts, so still not enough to work. I now can spin the starter but the way we did it only when the key is on.
Now waiting on new exhaust header studs from Cadre before I can wrap everything up and wait for spring when I can bed in the new rings.



It will look better on Bones’ red Norge 🙂

[guzzisteve]

I hope it's weather proof. Only thing I can think of, sounds good.

[fotoguzzi]

I though of that waterproof question, it’s all shrink wrapped in back and I do have a full waterproof switch in reserve but it’s way big and ugly so I’m starting with this one.

[drdwb]

Foto, Im curious. I like your safety/ theft prevention by adding the necessity of the key to be required. But what happens if the bike is running and the button is pushed by accident?

[fotoguzzi]

Well that would probably be near catastrophic to the starter gear at least.. at first I wanted one of those switches with the cover like aircraft have but I couldn’t find one at the ax man surplus store. May have to look into that tho.guess I should get something like these.

[drdwb]

Foto, I had several of those at one time, left over from a stash from my Air Force days 1973-77, Gave many away,along with the waterproof toggle switches they protected. They are not invisible, and quite hard to camouflage, especially where you have yours mounted. But if you mounted it on or in the fairing/ dash panels it would look cool, but still be very visible. However, since you have maintained the Key Lock component requirement ,seems like it wouldn’t matter where you put it. My 07 Norge hasn’t exhibited these problems yet,but seeing as it is showing up, might be a good idea to prepare for it as I get around to preseason maintenance.
Maybe in your spare time, you or some other talented member will come up with a kit complete with idiot proof instructions like the Status interuptus fix, in preparation for those of us with CRAC bikes who will eventually need to do fix this system failure.

[pehayes]

Bypass momentary start switch saved my bacon!!!

I rode the Breva to the hardware store.  When I arrived there was a Harley with its seat off and the owner searching customers for jumper cables.  When he had arrived, ee had killed his motor with the handlebar kill switch.  Went in side shopping with the master power switch still on.  Battery now too weak to crank.

I can fix this!  Brand new battery on the Breva.  Hooked up some cables, but still not enough  power to crank the Harley.  I started and ran the engine up high to get more out of the alternator.  Still wouldn't crank the Harley.  Another customer came along and said he would bring over a big diesel pickup so I went into the store to do my shopping.

When I came out, the Harley was gone.  I boarded the Breva, pushed the button, and NOTHING.  No clunk, no click, no nothing.  I used my bypass switch and started right up.  I drove home 5 miles to contemplate diagnostics.  The Breva has a voltmeter if you know where to find it.  I rode home at 11.7 volts and no increase.  Yikes!

Quick inspection showed a blown 30amp main fuse.  Replaced that and all good.  No damage done.  Blown fuse killed the starter circuit and the alternator circuit.  But the ECU and fuel pump were still functional.  Glad I had the accessory starter bypass.

Patrick  Hayes
Fremont CA

[tris]

I don't have a B11 anymore but this sort of thread is always interesting and educating

I was wondering where the functionality of the auto crank lives.

Ie if you push the start button but the auto crank logic thinks that the bike has spin for 5 seconds and turns the juice off

Also in my industrial gas turbine world a sensor spiking the control system can cause a world of pain.
I wonder if something unexpected like (say) the crank sensor could be causing a problem

[gscott]

We added a relay, tapped the yellow wire from the ignition relay and the orange fused line from the battery (the one from the startus interuptus fix) at the ignition relay without disturbing the original relay so theoretically the handlebar button can still work if the ECU sees enough voltage.

I'll call this SI v2.0.  I did the SI v1.0 by tapping in to the yellow wire in the small starter relay with a direct fused connection to batt+.  After that I got the solenoid Clunk.  The orange wire on the starter relay (next to the yellow wire) is connected to the solenoid.  It is only powered for a few seconds when the Clunk happens.

Where did you say you picked up the keyed hot wire to power your new momentary switch?  I think it makes sense to have a keyed + if I can find one easily.  Otherwise I'll just come from the battery at the yellow wire from SI v1.0.

[fotoguzzi]

I'll call this SI v2.0.  I did the SI v1.0 by tapping in to the yellow wire in the small starter relay with a direct fused connection to batt+.  After that I got the solenoid Clunk.  The orange wire on the starter relay (next to the yellow wire) is connected to the solenoid.  It is only powered for a few seconds when the Clunk happens.

Where did you say you picked up the keyed hot wire to power your new momentary switch?  I think it makes sense to have a keyed + if I can find one easily.  Otherwise I'll just come from the battery at the yellow wire from SI v1.0.

see if this makes sense, if not I will describe it.

[gscott]

Ok.  So you're using the yellow from the start relay for your switched hot .  I was confused because you mentioned an orange wire.  Thanks

[fotoguzzi]

Orange is what I used for the fused link from battery.

[fotoguzzi]

Don’t mount your switch where I did at first. I kept bumping it when pedaling the bike around in the garage.

[guzzisteve]

What's wrong with on the dash or starter cover.

[Bulldog9]

Don’t mount your switch where I did at first. I kept bumping it when pedaling the bike around in the garage.

That was my first thought when I saw that, but I'm a clutz...., lol.

[fotoguzzi]

The dash would be fine. I just tucked it under seat since the handlebar button decided to work now that it’s spring.

[gscott]

I'm going to try coming out of the battery box, under the seat.  Then open an access port in the right side black plastic panel  that hides the shock.  I hope to reach it while sitting  on the bike, not be able to bump it on accident and keep it somewhat hidden.  And it looks easy.

GuzziSteve:
I looked at the starter cover.  Not much room down there to work.  The cover is tight to the starter.  Dash would work. Just more wire.

[Huzo]

It’s a Norge, so just a discreet black push button mounted on the acres of black plastic surrounding the instruments.