Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start

[pehayes]

I posted earlier that I think the ECU may control the starter. Can anyone confirm this. Again, there was a post I think about a Norge that the ECU starter circuits had gone bad. I can't find that post.

Tom.  Are you suggesting that the ECU normally allows the 'trigger' wire from the starter spade terminal to have a 5 second crank cycle?  Are you then suggesting that an ECU failure would allow a starter spade 'spike' but not a continuous 5 second crank delivery?  That might explain the initial clunk without the follow up crank.  That might also explain why my alligator jumper does deliver a continuous crank signal.  If the ECU starter circuit failed I wouldn't even expect the initial clunk.  So, not buying that solution just yet, but sounds curious.

I'm tempted to abandon the starter relay all together and just bodge in a momentary switch somewhere else on the bike.  Would have to be from a 'key-on' power wire.  Otherwise tampering people could crank without a key.  Surely I would do that if I were keeping it.  Would prefer to get it correct if I sell.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Bulldog9]

I posted earlier that I think the ECU may control the starter. Can anyone confirm this. Again, there was a post I think about a Norge that the ECU starter circuits had gone bad. I can't find that post.

I do hope I'm wrong and it's something simple.

Tom

My understanding is that the immobilizer kills the starter, as well as the ignition and fuel.

[RHAT]

14 Norge here, but still having those issues.  I have startus interruptus,  and a new starter,  big hot cranking battery and checked every connection. 
When I turn it on and push the button, I get nothing.  No click. Silence.  I push and hold again and repeat until it connects.  It will then crank and start. 
I keep looking for a solution. Sometimes it cranks first push of the button,  it's just a crapshoot every time.

[Bulldog9]

14 Norge here, but still having those issues.  I have startus interruptus,  and a new starter,  big hot cranking battery and checked every connection. 
When I turn it on and push the button, I get nothing.  No click. Silence.  I push and hold again and repeat until it connects.  It will then crank and start. 
I keep looking for a solution. Sometimes it cranks first push of the button,  it's just a crapshoot every time.

That sounds like starter switch. I'd pull apart, clean, etc.

[fotoguzzi]

Well in a way I’m relieved! Not feeling much better but if PEHayes is stumped I don’t feel so dumb. No my problem has not been fixed yet, I’m taking the weekend off. Our plan has always been to just add a second start button if all else fails but trying to sell the thing with that kind of bodge could be challenging. Plus I hate not knowing why something is not working right. According to the wiring diagram there is a wire from the start button to the ECU, and the ECU feeds the ignition relay

, if I’m remembering right.
I have a second ECU that I don’t know the condition of, the thing is it’s super hard to replace the one in there now it’s pretty buried..I was hoping for a solution with out swapping that out. I’ll take a closer look at that on Monday.

[Tom H]

Patrick, I do NOT fully understand the newer bikes. I read about them here so that I can learn something that I may or may not remember. I intended to bring up the ECU JUST in case all else failed.

YES.... A fix is to add a push/momentary button type switch between the battery and the starter solenoid. Just like you do with a jumper wire from battery to solenoid spade connector.

Here is the last thread on what may be the issue. Bison was the guy.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115288.30

Found it, original thread:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=114716.0

EDIT...And the finish I think:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115288.0

Sorry "I" can't be of great help, but maybe read the post will.
Tom

[John A]

This probably isn’t the problem but I’ve found that the starters are not well sealed and get dirty and corroded internally faster than I expected. It’s a thing I overlook so it bites me in the butt after I’ve rode in the rain sometimes

[MattP]

how dos the start button work ?  ground  ground I recal a freind could not get his front turn sigs to work on his v50 i sold him,. the frount end not grounded except thruogh the greasy bearings I would hope you would be able to check this in about 10 mins OK? That would explain why your starter impotence mabey inject viagra in the battery last resort

[guzzisteve]

I'd try a simple $10 button, see if ECU likes it. If not bypass the ECU part of equation. It works wired direct, ECU pics up after running w/key on. Start button does not need to be in the equation. It doesn't effect imobilizer, it's bypassed too.
That's if you want to ride & not talk about whats wrong, most likely a bad pin connector somewhere.
I put a whole wiring loom on a Griso fews years back, it fixed his issues.

[fotoguzzi]

I'd try a simple $10 button, see if ECU likes it. If not bypass the ECU part of equation. It works wired direct, ECU pics up after running w/key on. Start button does not need to be in the equation. It doesn't effect imobilizer, it's bypassed too.
That's if you want to ride & not talk about whats wrong, most likely a bad pin connector somewhere.
I put a whole wiring loom on a Griso fews years back, it fixed his issues.

nice, so find the wire from the button that goes to the ECU and put that direct to the wire that formerly went from relay to starter solenoid. That’s if I want to use the stock button on handlebar, right?

And then you would hold the button down instead of that goofy way of touching the button and it cranks itself, yes. Why would they even need that auto start anyway? Dumb.

[guzzisteve]

Most of the CARC bike don't auto start. They did when new but it went away. Why? who knows. All that button does is ground the relay & that's how the ecu knows. I may be wrong but dout it. You can run a hot wire button and it doesn't effect a thing.
/EDIT Guess I'm Wrong

Just studied my hi-def wiring -------- start button = 2 wires  one goes to pin 28 on blue ecu connector the other to wire goes between bank angle sens & clutch switch that's it.
The kill switch turns on the relays(top of switch in diagram)

I'd make a separate circuit for starter

Looked some more, Ignition relay is the starter relay, has 2 wires go to ECU pin connector.
You could try cleaning the ECU plugs, in then out, could be all it needs BUT a pia.

[Kiwi_Roy]

There's some pretty weird circuitry around the Start relay, Fuse A FEEDS THE FRONT AND REAR STOPLIGHT SWITCHES, I DON'T QUITE SEE HOW THEY EFFECT THE START RELAY BUT MAKE SURE THE STOP LIGHT WORKS AND APLY THE BRAKE AS YOU PUSH START.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.

[fotoguzzi]

I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.

then that would crank starter even if the key was off?

[fotoguzzi]

There's some pretty weird circuitry around the Start relay, Fuse A FEEDS THE FRONT AND REAR STOPLIGHT SWITCHES, I DON'T QUITE SEE HOW THEY EFFECT

I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.

I thought all that back on page one but wasn’t sure myself how crazy weird it is.

[fotoguzzi]

So I’m backing up and ask if I can do a simple fix like this. Since I know it cranks by jumping the yellow to orange at the ignition relay can I just put a push button switch there and be done?

[guzzisteve]

I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.

THIS HERE

Unless it is at the ECU plugs which haven't been checked, I found that easiest but cutting the tie wraps, then it is easier.

BUT if you put a button between the wires check and make sure wiring & such are big enough. Make sure it's off w/ ignition off.

[guzzisteve]

I just looked at the relay circuit, it's the yellow & orange like you said. It just bypasses the ECU
That should be safe to do. Like a manual start.

[pehayes]

By way of follow-up and transparency.  My 2006 Breva 1100 failure to crank/start SEEMS to be solved (tap wood).

My bike would CLUNK maybe ten times in a row and then MIGHT crank and start.  Unreliable.  Might just CLUNK forever.  I measured voltage at the solenoid spade.  It spiked with the button and CLUNK but immediately went back to zero.  Only to spike again on the next button and CLUNK. 

I spent most of Saturday with it.  This bike had a roll-yer-own Startus-Interruptus relay system many years back.  I began by closely checking the design and implementation of that bodge fix.  Several of the wires had spade crimps and the wires just easily pulled right out of the crimps.  Great, that must be my issue.  Weak connections.  New crimp terminals and rock hard crimping.  No change in performance.  WHAA!

I did everything I could with no change.  I gave up on solving or correcting the original Guzzi abomination and began to design a second parallel circuit with an in-line momentary crank switch.  Direct from battery to solenoid spade.  Just need to hide the switch somewhere with easy reach access.  Just design and planning, no parts shopping just yet.

While at it, I found and pulled the original starter relay from its socket.  Sealed unit so I can't improve its internal contact quality.  I cleaned and used DeOxit on the four spade terminals and in the four receiver spades in the socket housing plug.  Reinstalled the stock relay and I have NOT been able to duplicate a CLUNK ever since.  Cranks and starts first time, every time.  Day One repetitively reliable.

I'm going to buy a new stock starter relay.  I'm going to probe in and bend the spade receiver sockets a little to ensure quality connection.  I'm going to park the bike for several days to burn the surface charge off the battery.  I'm confident with this, but I will report back after several days of battery decline.  Surely the weak/loose crimp connectors were a problem, but my issue persisted after correction.  Removing and cleaning the stock relay seemed to be the final fix.  Time will tell.

If this rears its head again, I will be going straight to the bypass momentary switch solution.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[fotoguzzi]

I HAVE BEEN A SPARKY FOR 60+ YEARS, I'M DAMBED IF I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRAZY CIRCITRY, THERE'S SOMETHING GUZZI ARN'T TELLING US THE WINDSCREEEN CONTROLS AND FRONT AND REAR STOP SWITCHES ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THINGSMAIN INJECTION RELAY??????????
I WOULD BE WIRING IN A BUTTON FROM BATTERY POSITIVE TO THE SOLENOID SPADE CONNECTOR, WHATEVER IT TAKES TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID.

and why is the main fuel injection relay different from all the rest of the relays including the aux FI relay?

[Chuck in Indiana]

I cleaned and used DeOxit on the four spade terminals and in the four receiver spades in the socket housing plug.  Reinstalled the stock relay and I have NOT been able to duplicate a CLUNK ever since.  Cranks and starts first time, every time.  Day One repetitively reliable.

I can't tell you how many things I've fixed with Caig DeOxit.  That stuff is magic in a can. Mark at MGC called me the other day telling me he'd already fixed a couple of electrical problems with it after I bad mouthed him for using WD40..

[guzzisteve]

I've dealt w/this since 07, and I would NEVER buy a CARC Guzzi because of it. The only way I've found is to bypass their ECU system for starting. I tell riders to carry a wire w/2 alligator clips so to continue w/it fails.

[pehayes]

Well, sorry folks.  That didn't last long.  Started repeatedly yesterday when it was intermittently on the tender charger and so had a top level charge state.
This morning, nothing but CLUNK once again.  I tested at the battery with a good meter.  12.88 volts.    Turn on the key (no headlamp yet) and the voltage drops to 12.35.  Hit the CLUNK button and the voltage drops to 12.20.

Meanwhile I have some old batteries laying around.  I have a Westco AGM from 2013 that I removed from an EV.  Haven't charged that one in six months.  Sitting on the floor under my bench at 12.60 volt.  Hook that up with jumper cables (no advance charging) and the Breva cranks and starts instantly.  I also have an old H/F jump box that I haven't recharged in about six months.  Hook that up and the Breva cranks and starts instantly.   Remove the jumper cables and nothing but a CLUNK.

This is a four month MotoBatt.  I may try for a warranty.  Meanwhile I'll put in another battery and also set up a bypass momentary switch.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Huzo]

Just in an attempt to push away some of the mud in the water…
Is there ever a time where the problem occurs with the jumper leads on ? Surely it couldn’t be some fault in the battery could it ?
The battery could show a good 12.5 volts at test, but the connection of either + or - poles may have a compromised connection internally, such that the high amps cannot be delivered to the starter.
A bit lame I’ll concede, but if it jump starts reliably, I can see no other reason.
Next time it does it at home, I’d creep up on it and jump it off the car battery. If that works, I’d swap batteries with another reliable bike and see if the problem follows the battery.
I swear every time I hear that “CLUNK” sound, it takes me back to the horrific events in the camp ground at Millau in France, it’s just a hopeless feeling….
Seems to me that I’d delay fitting  the jury rigged starter switch, until it fails on a known good battery.

[fotoguzzi]

Yes the clunk can happen with jumper cables, I tried 2 different batteries jumping with fully charged new ones.
I had to remove the side panel just to access the spade connection on back of starter, ground cable looked like new.
I put on a heavier gauge wire to the spade but haven’t tried it yet. I want to add another relay like zoom zoom did on a different thread.

[Tom H]

Patrick, hopefully it's just the battery. My HD does have starting issues when a battery is going bad. Motobatt Bought a 20 size for my bike and a friend bought a 30 size for his touring. I think my battery lasted about a year and his was not far behind mine. Motobatt is supposed to be very good batteries, that is why I bought it.

Tom

[Huzo]

Yes the clunk can happen with jumper cables, I tried 2 different batteries jumping with fully charged new ones.
I had to remove the side panel just to access the spade connection on back of starter, ground cable looked like new.
I put on a heavier gauge wire to the spade but haven’t tried it yet. I want to add another relay like zoom zoom did on a different thread.

Bugger….
Have you had the starter motor off the check the brushes and related internals ?

[pehayes]

Is there ever a time where the problem occurs with the jumper leads on ? Surely it couldn’t be some fault in the battery could it ?
such that the high amps cannot be delivered to the starter.
A bit lame I’ll concede, but if it jump starts reliably, I can see no other reason.

HUZO, that is exactly how mine is performing.  When it CLUNKS, any other meager battery can jump and start it.  It never fails with jumpers from another battery.  Beginning to be obvious that it is my battery.  A four month MotoBatt AGM.  Not cheap.   They have a warranty, but that is going to take forever with back and forth across country.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Vagrant]

https://www.amazon.com/ExpertPower-YTX30L-BS-Motorcycle-Replaces-Sportsman/dp/B08C9FM586/ref=sr_1_8?crid=32O63EYS9YJ88&keywords=ytx30l-bs+battery&qid=1676330632&sprefix=Ytx30%2Caps%2C268&sr=8-8&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc

I just stuck this one in the old EV. Fair price in todays world.

[SemperVee]

 Been following this thread and it is battery related  -  MY Best battery recommendation is using "ChromeBattery" made  here in the US and available on Amazon also.  Great price as I just paid $58 for my Norge battery and comes with a 100% 18 month warranty!  Can't beat that anywhere.