V85 TT Merged Threadfest

[twowheeladdict]

Can anybody confirm that the V85TT has a normal electrical system and not a BMW style Canbus setup?  I'm quite interested in the bike and could just about tolerate ABS, throttle by wire, riding modes etc but if it were to have Canbus it would put me over the edge.

The single throttle body does make me smile.

Well, I am going to test ride a Suzuki VanVan 200 tomorrow.  I think it will be a great bike for putting around the Tennessee hills on the gravel roads and Wildlife Management Areas.  I guarantee that it does not have CanBus if that is something you want to avoid.   

[Tusayan]

I don't agree the Cali 1400 is a failing product.  Failing in what way?  I own two and having nothing but praise for them.

Failing to sell in volume, and as a result by all accounts likely to go out of production soon:

The writing is on the wall. Small blocks set to take over the world.  Here's 2018 sales numbers for Guzzi in Italy.

V7 - 1,645
V9 Bobber - 198
V9 Roamer - 96
CALIFORNIA 1400 TOURING - 23
California 1400 Bold - 21
CALIFORNIA 1400 ELDORADO - 18
MGX-21 - 14

[Kiwi Dave]

How do sales compare in the rest of the world?  Vespas in Italy I'm guessing dominate 2 wheel sales, but not necessarily everywhere else.  Guzzi are trying to sell to everyone.

[pete roper]

Guzzis are as rare in Italy as they are anywhere else. While the Italians have a soft spot for them because of their history it's the sort of soft spot that people have for mad uncle Boris who sits in the corner shouting and smells slightly of wee.

The Californias sell like rat sandwiches because people who want a 'Cruiser' generally want something that looks like a Harley. The Cali's don't look like Harleys so they sell like rat sandwiches. They won't sell to more 'Traditional' Guzzi owners because they are absurdly heavy and handle like a fridge.

It was a nice idea but was doomed to failure from the start. I tried to like them, I really did. Good grief, I even bought one! Alt the end of the day though it wasn't what I consider a decent motorbike to be.

Pete

[Muzz]

A couple of years ago we went through a fair few countries in Europe and I saw one smallblock in Salzburg and a big block in Amsterdam.

[Knuckle Dragger]

The single throttle body does make me smile.

I was a bit surprised too!  I suspect it & the 2-valve heads are responsible for the bike's fat midrange & flexibility.

[pete roper]

I doubt it.

[janguzzi]

http://www.guzzistelvio.net/V85ttdoc/v85TTdescr.pdf

Seems to be an internal Piaggio marketing document 

[pete roper]

Looks like a sales brochure to me.

[janguzzi]

The first page says "For internal use only"

Here is some content (Google Translator) for page 13

This new propulsion unit boasts the following technical interventions with respect to the starting platform (V9):
• Heads with new ducts, admission fittings with dedicated shapes.
• Titanium intake valves with increased diameter.
• Distribution unit with roller tappets.
• New camshaft with specific cam profile.
• Aluminum rocker arm rods.
• Head covers and spark plug covers with a new look (left and right).
• Motorized throttle body (single-body diam. 52 mm).
• Enhanced generator.
• Lightened piston with new geometry and 20 mm diameter plug.
• Integral crankshaft with new clutch interface and lightened connecting rod.
• Cylinder with reduced height, modified oil passages and new fixing to the base.
• Base with new frame attachments, reinforcement in the internal stud passage area, additional cylinder fixings, modification oil circuit holes and complete closing of the crankshaft compartment with seat for new oil scraping plate on the lower base.
• Oil level indicators on lower half-shroud (porthole).
• New oil circuit with transfer pump from crankcase of crankcase to crankcase.
• Double oil pump for additional circuit needed to transfer oil from the crank handle to the sump.
• Oil sump with reduced footprint and mountings for sump guard.
• Dry clutch with addition of a reinforcement disc under the clutch mechanism and new clutch disc.
• Gearbox and clutch bell with reduced footprint (removed gearbox oil pump)
• New swingarm connection bearings with reinforced housing area.
• Gearbox with new gear ratios and flexible coupling on clutch shaft, first gear engagement with triple slot.

[lucian]

Don't understand the aluminum push rods, how much weight are we saving here?   

[fossil]

Can anybody confirm that the V85TT has a normal electrical system and not a BMW style Canbus setup?  I'm quite interested in the bike and could just about tolerate ABS, throttle by wire, riding modes etc but if it were to have Canbus it would put me over the edge.

The single throttle body does make me smile.

As an electronics engineer who works a lot especially with the CAN-Bus I can tell you there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. For example I make control systems for fire fighting systems for ships (especially Cruise Ships built by Meyer Werft in Germany, but also a lot of others worldwide). We sometimes have CAN-Bus cables about a kilometre long in an electronically very harsh environment (voltages of about 11 kV for drive systems). As the protocol is very fail safe it simply works! So why should it not work in a simple motorcycle?

[PeteS]

Don't understand the aluminum push rods, how much weight are we saving here?   

Its not about saving total weight, its about reducing inertia. Lighter rods can change direction faster assuming the same force is moving them. That translates to higher RPMs. Nothing new about aluminum push rods. The Brits have been using them for many decades.

Pete

[Tusayan]

As an electronics engineer who works a lot especially with the CAN-Bus I can tell you there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. For example I make control systems for fire fighting systems for ships (especially Cruise Ships built by Meyer Werft in Germany, but also a lot of others worldwide). We sometimes have CAN-Bus cables about a kilometre long in an electronically very harsh environment (voltages of about 11 kV for drive systems). As the protocol is very fail safe it simply works! So why should it not work in a simple motorcycle?

My idea of a simple motorcycle is one that one day, let's say 40 years from now, I will borrow from somebody who hasn't started it in 10 years.  The original manufacturer will have made let's say 3000 of the model and will by that time have gone out of business.  After some fluid changes and a new battery I'll set off on a trip to Baja California.  The when I am 500 miles from the nearest qualified workshop, let's say at Rancho Santa Inez or Pozo Aleman, some electrical component and some wiring will fall to pieces from age. Neither of those places has ADAC service    I will borrow some hardware and a battery powered soldering iron from an 80 year old man who has some in his motorhome in case his trailer wiring fails, and repair whatever needs to be repaired.

By the way that simple motorcycle also needs to be able to cruise at 130 kph for hours, carry a lot of stuff and handle reasonably well on and off road - because that's what it will be used for over the next 50 years.

Canbus is a prominent example of how the European motorcycle industry no longer conceives of bikes maintained outside of a ‘controlled environment’ of commercial dealers locked into money sucking maintenance, without draconian TüV-style dictates on how the vehicle is maintained or modified by its owner, and without roadside recovery to take the bike ‘home’ to the dealer.  None of those things are part of my world, and they never will be.

[s1120]

Its not about saving total weight, its about reducing inertia. Lighter rods can change direction faster assuming the same force is moving them. That translates to higher RPMs. Nothing new about aluminum push rods. The Brits have been using them for many decades.

Pete

It does make the valvetrain more stable at higher revs, [OK.. so the V guzzi  is not that high of a rev'er...] but it also allows the use of more aggressive cam lobe profiles that pay off throughout the rev range.

[pete roper]

Umm! They've always used alloy pushrods.

Just sayin.

[Muzz]

Aahhh, but these could be superringstingthing rayguncar ones, guaranteed not to rip, burst, tear or go sideways.....or something.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Umm! They've always used alloy pushrods.

Just sayin.

  Even my bloody old ditch pump V700 has alloy pushrods.

[pauldaytona]

My idea of a simple motorcycle is one that one day, let's say 40 years from now, I will borrow from somebody who hasn't started it in 10 years.  The original manufacturer will have made let's say 3000 of the model and will by that time have gone out of business.  After some fluid changes and a new battery I'll set off on a trip to Baja California.  The when I am 500 miles from the nearest qualified workshop, let's say at Rancho Santa Ynez or Pozo Aleman, some electrical component and some wiring will fall to pieces from age. Neither of those places has ADAC service    I will borrow some hardware and a battery powered soldering iron from an 80 year old man who has some in his motorhome in case his trailer wiring fails, and repair whatever needs to be repaired.

By the way that simple motorcycle also needs to be able to cruise at 130 kph for hours, carry a lot of stuff and handle reasonably well on and off road - because that's what it will be used for over the next 50 years.

Canbus is a prominent example of how the European motorcycle industry no longer conceives of bikes maintained outside of a ‘controlled environment’ of commercial dealers locked into money sucking maintenance, without draconian TüV-style dictates on how the vehicle is maintained or modified by its owner, and without roadside recovery to take the bike ‘home’ to the dealer.  None of those things are part of my world, and they never will be.

You know that since 2003 from the first Breva 1100 guzzi's have a can bus? It's only for communication between dashboard and ecu. Things like revs, speed, startup logic(is the sidestand in). Later models do have ABS also connected to CAN bus. Just to communicate status. The ABS unit needs nothing, it is self contained.  CAN bus is one of the things that have no problems on a Guzzi. 

[Tusayan]

It is not a coincidence that the newest of my group of nine motorcycles was made in 2002.  All of them look and run like new and most are rising in value to a greater or lesser extent... unlike a Breva 1100 which like the most of the other Piaggio/Aprilia designed Guzzis since 2003 or so are rapidly being forgotten.

What has survived without too much added complexity and may save the day is the small block.  The V85TT definitely has the potential to turn the tide in terms of annual sales numbers, and I hope it does. If I do buy one it will be because of its simple features and in spite of what I mentioned above.

[Vagrant]

Give me a break! I don't care if it canbus can taxi or just plain beer can. As.long as it starts and runs I'm getting one! Lifes too short to worry. Besides you know there will be growing pains and this problem won't be one of them.

[Tusayan]

Give me a break! I don't care if it canbus can taxi or just plain beer can. As.long as it starts and runs I'm getting one! Lifes too short to worry.

Your life is apparently different than mine. Or at least your reason to buy a ‘Classic Enduro’ like the R100GSs I’ve been riding since the 90s.

It’s reasonable for me to consider what happens if I tip a bike like this over and submerge it in a rain wash on the dirt road between El Arco and Guerrero Negro. BTDT.  If a ride-by-wire Hall effect throttle sensor or the throttle plate actuator motor is flooded or otherwise broken, the bike may not start and run all that well for the 800 km ride to the nearest town with a dealer.

[bad Chad]

The latest issue of Cycle world just showed up today, and to my surprise the inside back cover consisted of a full page advertisement from Guzzi! 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Give me a break! I don't care if it canbus can taxi or just plain beer can. As.long as it starts and runs I'm getting one! Lifes too short to worry. Besides you know there will be growing pains and this problem won't be one of them.

A bit harsh?  Fear of the unknown is pretty palpable to some people.  One's fears, however ludicrously irrational it seems, are nevertheless very real to those captive to its 'spell'.

M/C electrics/onics are a fickle & capricious necessity.  But you know that already.  You ride a Guzzi.  Previous purveyors of despicably low-purity copper conductors, corrosive connectors, unreliable telltales & switchgear.  To be scared of modern iterations is all-but unneccessary, granted, but it isn't right to mock somebody's 'genuine' concern. 

Being stranded can be intimidating.  I was inadvertently waylaid in Leningrad in the days of the USSR by the tiniest, most insignificant of throttle closure microswitches attached to a BMW/Bobbie Bosch jetronic injection controller.  The engine would start & idle as normal, but would shut down if revved over 1.6-2K RPM.

The thing is, what could've/would've/should've been a disaster turned out to be one of the best times of my life.  I discovered the genuine warmth, kindness, generosity, even love of a people that I had been taught to fear & revile as 'enemies'.  It's a bit of a revelation to not just have the irrationality of one's fears exposed & allayed, but to find a wealth of experience just one consequence of a so-called 'misadventure'.  The realisation that, as a young lad, I'd been deliberately lied to all my life by my own government, teachers & lawmakers was an eye-opener too!

The switch (shorted by rain) dried out partially over a fortnight & I was able proceed forthwith.  The problem was eventually definitively diagnosed & permanently sorted by a friendly Helsinki Police bike mechanic:  the only fellow in the country at that time professionally schooled in mercurial BMW/Bosch injection electronics.

The fact that modern Guzzi electrics, under the tutelage & supervision of one of the world's larger M/C manufacturers are more reliable than ever before is irrelevant.  The fact that the chance of electronic misadventure have likewise been reduced to the point of irrelevance is also invalid.  Someone's fears, genuinely felt, should be respected.  The world can be a scary place to some.  I should know.  I've suffered from mild social phobias for much of my life too.

[Tusayan]

If our mechanical neophyte novelist from down under is trying to characterize me as a techno-phobe, it's probably worth saying that my job is in R&D within the field we are discussing. I run the engineering team on (among other similar projects) a $30M development program to replace a purely mechanical power technology with an electromechanical software controlled solution. We're developing both the hardware and software.  The approach has its pluses and minuses.  I've also made the price of fifteen V85TTs doing fun side work on motorcycle electronics.  Familiarity breeds contempt  

I would have myself preferred if the V85TT controls and electrical system were closer modeled on the V7: cable throttle, dirt simple, less to buy, less to break, easily field maintainable...  however I can understand that Piaggio wanted to find a middle ground that attracts buyers tired of ridiculous BMW techno-games but still wanting to have some trendy features comparable with the Japanese or Triumph at the same $13K or whatever price level.  That results in a bike less rugged for people with real 'Classic Enduro' needs and interests - but the average buyer worldwide will probably use it as a standard street bike, much like 2019 GS buyers but projecting more 'authenticity'.  It's a good brand building niche, unlike everything they've tried since 2003.

I might buy one...  I like the concept way, way more than anything else Guzzi in the last 15 years, but I'm not convinced it could replace my R100GS for really harsh, remote use. Maybe it could replace my ST4 as a general service two-up with bags touring bike, that depends on the power.  My guess is unchanged at 68 RWHP, or about 2/3 that of the Ducati.

[keener]

Give me a break! I don't care if it canbus can taxi or just plain beer can. As.long as it starts and runs I'm getting one! Lifes too short to worry. Besides you know there will be growing pains and this problem won't be one of them.

    nothing wrong with canbus, but fear its self ....... 

[JohninVT]

I have no doubt there are plenty of members here who mistrust fuel injection and who won’t buy a bike unless it has points and carburetors.  For years I refused to buy a bike with ABS, riding modes or traction control.  I ride on gravel all the time and ABS isn’t great in that environment, imho.  However, I’ve come around in the last 3-4 years on electronics because after actually TRYING a bike with an electronics package, I found that it enhanced my control of the bike.  The performance envelope expanded.  Both those things were the exact opposite of my decades long, false assumptions. 

This stuff has been around since literbikes went over 130rwhp.    That was a long time ago.  At least 20 years.  Bikes are all about personal preference.  Ride whatever you like but educate yourself.  There’s nothing to be afraid of.

[Smithy]

Canbus merely allows data for different functions to be carried down the same pair of wires.  It represents a huge saving in the amount of individual wires on the bike, reducing the complexity.

I don't agree the Cali 1400 is a failing product.  Failing in what way?  I own two and having nothing but praise for them.

Agree..the Cali is motorcyclings best kept secret..and I like it for that..I have owned more that 50 bikes and its been one of the best. Guzzi in Australia is let down by poor marketing and even taken a step backwards due to the new distributor..at lest before the dealerships were passionate, now in Victoria at least its run by the big bargain store mob.

[rdbandkab]

Whoa Smithy!

76 KTM Jackpiner?   Boss!

[Numbercruncher]

Given that Mr. Arthur Itis is visiting both of my hands and not going anywhere soon I have to be very conscious of clutch effort.  The Stelvio was too much and my V7 III is pushing it.   Once someone gets their hands on one of these, please let us "old man hand types" know what clutch effort is like.

NC