Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 03:52:22 PM

Title: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 03:52:22 PM
Well, I've already modified my V7C quite a bit from the stock setup.  Some of the mods include a LeMans metal tankwith external fuel pump, filter, and regulator. K&N pod filters, Norton peashooter exhaust, Stucchi fairing, stainless steel fenders, and a Power Commander V with Autotune and a ECU flash by Todd at Guzzitech.  This bike runs great, but I'm always wanting to mess with something else, so i've decided to fit some four valve heads an see how it runs with a modern fuel injection setup.  The main reason for my post is a request for information.  I have read a lot about the Larioo heads, and the different valve/spring/cap/ and shim that people have used.  I would like to use the updated Moto Guzzi valves, which i have the part number for, but I dont know which springs would work best.  Just looking for input from those on the board who have experience with the Lario heads.  Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 14, 2012, 05:17:15 PM
According to Iceblue.. the Nevada valve springs are the hot setup. There are some kind of progressive springs on my Lario heads, I'm going with them.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: leafman60 on December 14, 2012, 05:28:50 PM
Why in the world didn't Guzzi develop a new set of 4-valve heads for the V7 series when they did this latest upgrade?  Oh, we've already been through all of that ....
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on December 14, 2012, 05:38:19 PM
It will be fascinating to watch your latest project develop.

I stopped in at a fellow Italian Motorcycle Club member's house two weeks ago. He has a lovely V35 Imola that is currently fitted with a V50 motor. On the bench was a beautifully restored V65 Lario motor that is destined for the Imola! He is running Suzuki GN250 valves & springs.

Kurt
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 07:04:13 PM
Yes, found some heads listed at Teo Lamers, got them ordered, should be here after Christmas.  Man Carl, it's so cool you got a Racer!  What a bike!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 07:08:37 PM
So Suzuki GN250 Valves and springs.  I'm going to see about some part numbers..The replacement Guzzi valves were supposed to be ok, but Im not sure about availability...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 07:16:01 PM
Ok, so the Nevada springs are the single spring set up? Part # 2703 7521?  Then the lower and upper collars are 3103 7015 and 3103 8015?
Correction, the spring changes to a part #61037500
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on December 14, 2012, 07:21:48 PM
Interesting upgrade.
Is the camshaft still appropriate for a switch to 4 valves?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: fotoguzzi on December 14, 2012, 07:32:31 PM
Well, I've already modified my V7C quite a bit from the stock setup.  Some of the mods include a LeMans metal tankwith external fuel pump, filter, and regulator. K&N pod filters, Norton peashooter exhaust, Stucchi fairing, stainless steel fenders, and a Power Commander V with Autotune and a ECU flash by Todd at Guzzitech.  This bike runs great, but I'm always wanting to mess with something else, so i've decided to fit some four valve heads an see how it runs with a modern fuel injection setup.  The main reason for my post is a request for information.  I have read a lot about the Larioo heads, and the different valve/spring/cap/ and shim that people have used.  I would like to use the updated Moto Guzzi valves, which i have the part number for, but I dont know which springs would work best.  Just looking for input from those on the board who have experience with the Lario heads.  Thanks in advance!
do you have pix?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 08:13:43 PM
Interesting upgrade.
Is the camshaft still appropriate for a switch to 4 valves?
Good question.  I do not know the lobe dimensions of the current cam.  I'm hoping they are 14mm.  If not, I plan to source the cam and lifters from Ed Milich at GuzziPower.  I am happy with the lift and duration right now, I want the bike to stay streetable with a broad power band.  I am assuming the newer cams are hard enough, and I plan on lighter valve springs too.  I do not plan on revving the bike way up, say 7500 max, so hopefully the valves wont float...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 08:16:16 PM
do you have pix?
Yes, I had some earlier threads on here, I will see if I can find one of the threads and link it...
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=52223.0
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 08:59:33 PM
It will be fascinating to watch your latest project develop.

I stopped in at a fellow Italian Motorcycle Club member's house two weeks ago. He has a lovely V35 Imola that is currently fitted with a V50 motor. On the bench was a beautifully restored V65 Lario motor that is destined for the Imola! He is running Suzuki GN250 valves & springs.

Kurt

Found this from 2008...

   
Re: Advice on Lario valve/spring isues (with more pics)
Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 08:28:24 AM
Reply
Quote
All parts now on hand.

Will post pics when I start rebuilding in a week or two.

Can't wait to get this thing going again.  Well, going for the first time for me...

Cost of parts to date:

8 valve springs - suzuki $65  p/n 12921-38211

16 spring seats - suzuki  $100 p/n 12933-38200

16 valve collets - genuine $160

8 valves - genuine $360



Trevor G
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 09:02:24 PM
It was too purty to pass up. The functional difference are the engine characteristics. Jury is out on that one. Better around town, top end comparison is an unknown at this point.
Well, that bike is easy on the eyes for sure!  Seems like Guzzi did exactly what was needed!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on December 14, 2012, 09:40:51 PM
mwrenn, I'm interested in your mods.  Like you, I like to work on my V7 as well.

Are you going to do a dyno run?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on December 14, 2012, 09:56:48 PM
Have you sourced the flat top pistons yet?

 :+1 on the dyno runs before and after!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 10:24:12 PM
mwrenn, I'm interested in your mods.  Like you, I like to work on my V7 as well.

Are you going to do a dyno run?
Yes, planning on a dyno run, before and after.  Kinetic playground in Tulsa has a Dyno, I will use them.  How's your V7 running with the Gilardoni cylinder kit? 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 10:35:42 PM
Have you sourced the flat top pistons yet?

 :+1 on the dyno runs before and after!

I have not sourced any pistons yet.  To be quite frank, I was not 100% sure I would have to change them. Although to keep close to the stock compression ratio, I will have to do something.  Harpers has a Lario big bore kit listed on their website.  The piston diameter is listed at 84mm.  The stock V7C bore is 80mm.  I was considering this kit, called them this morning, and they said it was a 720cc kit for the Lario.  I must admit to being a bit confused, with the larger bore being a 720.  I was pretty sure the stroke on the Lario and the V7C were the same...Guess I have some more research to do.   ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: v7classic on December 14, 2012, 10:47:16 PM
Your tastes for customization run parallel to mine.  Any chance you could post or email pics of your bike and LeMans tank fitment ?  What LeMans tank did you fit; an original or a steel copy from MG Cycle ?

I am very interested in getting rid of the nylon tank for steel.

Any info, pictures, contacxts, sharing experience of the fitment would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Steve Swan  970.443.2432, mountain std.time

sandcast232@yahoo.com
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Muzz on December 14, 2012, 10:53:30 PM
It will be fascinating to watch your latest project develop.

 He is running Suzuki GN250 valves & springs.

Kurt


Thats what was in my head. I think Brian (Iceblue) was muttering about Nissan valves of some sort.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 11:36:59 PM
Your tastes for customization run parallel to mine.  Any chance you could post or email pics of your bike and LeMans tank fitment ?  What LeMans tank did you fit; an original or a steel copy from MG Cycle ?

I am very interested in getting rid of the nylon tank for steel.

Any info, pictures, contacxts, sharing experience of the fitment would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Steve Swan  970.443.2432, mountain std.time

Hey Steve!  I bought those Norton peashooters on ebay from you..lol  Anyway, here is a thread link with some pictures..http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=52223.0  I'll email you the conversion details for the tank, etc...a lot of work, but worth it!  Cheers.
Oh yes, it was a steel tank from MG cycles.

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 14, 2012, 11:50:15 PM
Thats what was in my head. I think Brian (Iceblue) was muttering about Nissan valves of some sort.

Hmmm..Nissan valves?  Interesting.  I did some searching and found the MotoGuzzi intake and exhaust valves available.  They are 27 mm intakes and 24 mm exhausts,  average about $35 each.  The Nevada progressive springs and spring seats are available too, that is if I'm looking at the right part number.  I would prefer to use the factory parts if I can get them.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Muzz on December 15, 2012, 02:22:46 AM
With the original Lario valves there was something about them being a two piece, and they were prone to fracture at the join.

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Morizzi on December 15, 2012, 02:56:54 AM
With the original Lario valves there was something about them being a two piece, and they were prone to fracture at the join.

That is quite a common practise. The cost can be reduced as the whole valve doesn't need to be of the same hardened material as the head but the stem can be a material that dissipates and transfers heat better through the valve guides. It can be a win-win.

Everything I've compiled on the 4 valve isses is down at the bottom of the article.

http://guzzista.wetpaint.com/page/Older+Small+Block+Issues%3F (http://guzzista.wetpaint.com/page/Older+Small+Block+Issues%3F)

I've posted the link to it before. Its there to be used as a resource.

Rod
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on December 15, 2012, 08:03:41 AM
Yes, planning on a dyno run, before and after.  Kinetic playground in Tulsa has a Dyno, I will use them.  How's your V7 running with the Gilardoni cylinder kit? 

I have to adjust the fueling, as the big bore kit is too lean with the factory map.  However the fueling is taking a backseat, as now I am struggling with left cylinder running much too hot.  Right one is normal, approx. 300F (150C).  The left cyl is always a little warmer, but at highway speeds it can get very hot, approaching 500F (260C).

I knew the left cyl was hot, but I didn't realize the extent until I fitted a pair of cylinder head temp gauges.  Now I see it's dangerously hot, and I've got to deal with that. 
No intake leaks.  I had the fuel injectors cleaned + tested, so they are good.

Any ideas?

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2012, 10:12:32 AM
I have to adjust the fueling, as the big bore kit is too lean with the factory map.  However the fueling is taking a backseat, as now I am struggling with left cylinder running much too hot.  Right one is normal, approx. 300F (150C).  The left cyl is always a little warmer, but at highway speeds it can get very hot, approaching 500F (260C).

I knew the left cyl was hot, but I didn't realize the extent until I fitted a pair of cylinder head temp gauges.  Now I see it's dangerously hot, and I've got to deal with that. 
No intake leaks.  I had the fuel injectors cleaned + tested, so they are good.

Any ideas?



Uh, yeah, 500 degrees is dangerously hot all right. :o It's normally caused by an intake leak, though.. so dunno. Are you sure it isn't pre igniting for what ever reason?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2012, 10:14:30 AM
Quote
I have not sourced any pistons yet.  To be quite frank, I was not 100% sure I would have to change them.

The Lario flat tops are clearanced for the valves.. you'd at least have to do that.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 15, 2012, 11:10:12 AM
That is quite a common practise. The cost can be reduced as the whole valve doesn't need to be of the same hardened material as the head but the stem can be a material that dissipates and transfers heat better through the valve guides. It can be a win-win.

Everything I've compiled on the 4 valve isses is down at the bottom of the article.

http://guzzista.wetpaint.com/page/Older+Small+Block+Issues%3F (http://guzzista.wetpaint.com/page/Older+Small+Block+Issues%3F)

I've posted the link to it before. Its there to be used as a resource.

Rod

Yes, thanks for that, it is a good resource!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 15, 2012, 11:33:27 AM
I have to adjust the fueling, as the big bore kit is too lean with the factory map.  However the fueling is taking a backseat, as now I am struggling with left cylinder running much too hot.  Right one is normal, approx. 300F (150C).  The left cyl is always a little warmer, but at highway speeds it can get very hot, approaching 500F (260C).

I knew the left cyl was hot, but I didn't realize the extent until I fitted a pair of cylinder head temp gauges.  Now I see it's dangerously hot, and I've got to deal with that. 
No intake leaks.  I had the fuel injectors cleaned + tested, so they are good.

Any ideas?


Maybe swap CHT probes side to side.  Make sure the gauge is accurate.  Or double check it with an infrared/laser pointer thermometer.  My thinking is the heat could be from lack of fuel, intake leak, spark timing, or friction.  Or if the piston on that side is a higher compression ratio than the right side.....that would do it.  Sheesh, that's a tough one.  I have a spare ECU from an 07 Breva I can send you.  It made my V7C run better than the factory original one, PM me your address and I'll send it out, might be worth a try...
Your problem brings up an interesting point.  I am working on a turbocharged Lycoming six cylinder engine right now with the same problem.  One cylinder runs 50 degrees F hotter than all the others.  The fueling is correct, no intake leaks, with the turbo it runs at 35in/hg manifold pressure, higher than ambient, timing is good.  The factory calls for a 7.5 to 1 piston to be in there.  When I took the cylinder off for low compression, it had a 8.5 to 1 piston, as did all the other cylinders, from the factory.  When I re-assembled it the first time, I put the correct piston in, and it ran hotter!  With the 7.5 to one piston!  You would think it would be cooler on that cylinder.  Anyway, waiting to hear back from the factory rep at this point...its a mystery...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on December 15, 2012, 12:07:38 PM
Maybe swap CHT probes side to side.  Make sure the gauge is accurate.  Or double check it with an infrared/laser pointer thermometer.  My thinking is the heat could be from lack of fuel, intake leak, spark timing, or friction.  Or if the piston on that side is a higher compression ratio than the right side.....that would do it.  Sheesh, that's a tough one.  I have a spare ECU from an 07 Breva I can send you.  It made my V7C run better than the factory original one, PM me your address and I'll send it out, might be worth a try...
Your problem brings up an interesting point.  I am working on a turbocharged Lycoming six cylinder engine right now with the same problem.  One cylinder runs 50 degrees F hotter than all the others.  The fueling is correct, no intake leaks, with the turbo it runs at 35in/hg manifold pressure, higher than ambient, timing is good.  The factory calls for a 7.5 to 1 piston to be in there.  When I took the cylinder off for low compression, it had a 8.5 to 1 piston, as did all the other cylinders, from the factory.  When I re-assembled it the first time, I put the correct piston in, and it ran hotter!  With the 7.5 to one piston!  You would think it would be cooler on that cylinder.  Anyway, waiting to hear back from the factory rep at this point...its a mystery...

At first I thought it was the gauge too, but the left side (hot side) pipe is much bluer than the rt (cool) side.  So...empirical evidence supports the gauge.  I don't want to be like the lost explorer, who refuses to believe his compass.

My ECU was showing a memory error, so I replaced it with an aftermarket ECU by MyECU, which I recommend heartily.  Hot cyl didn't change.  

Plugs - the right (cool) plug has been dark.  Like it's getting oil, or is too rich.  Unfortunately the plug isn't clearly too rich, or clearly oil fouled.  It's hard to read.  
Left (hot) plug is normal.  Normal.  Which is odd, because I would expect it too look lean.

My theories;
If the cool side (rt) is getting too much fuel, the O2 sensor would start leaning out the mix to both cylinders.  Leaving the other side (hot side) too lean.  
Or, if the cool side is getting oil in the cylinder, it might make the O2 sensor do the same thing; lean out the mix to both cylinders.  Causing the non-oil cylinder to get lean and hot.

My next step is to turn off the O2 sensor (MyECU allows for this) and see if this changes things.  I'm in New England, so I'll attack this in March, when winter abates.  

Chuck, pre-ignition is a good thought.  But with the change of ECUs I feel I eliminated that possibility.  
Wrenn, thanks for the offer of a parts swap.  

To recap:  the hot side usually runs slightly warmer, but on the highway above 4,250 rpm the temp shoots up.  Almost like flipping a switch.  Oddly, the temp often will lessen if I downshift to 4th gear and keep the rpms even higher, but this isn't a sure thing.  So on the highway I usually ride sedately, in 5th at 60-65 mph, which keeps the temp moderate.   While this is going on the cool side cylinder runs normally.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 15, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
The Lario flat tops are clearanced for the valves.. you'd at least have to do that.

Yes, I saw the cutouts on your thread.  Thanks for posting that BTW!  Im digging into some parts books now, trying to determine if the V75 two valve engine ran a different part number piston than the V75 four valve.   If they did, I figure I could try to get some factory pistons from a V75 four valve...
I'm going to get bronze valve guides installed as well.  MotoInternational in Seattle has six in stock.  I've found two more in Germany, so gotta order them.  Thinking about just ordering eight guides from Germany, and new circlips, and having Millenium Technologies install them.  
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 15, 2012, 12:38:00 PM
This is interesting that someone is going to give this idea a shot.  I have a feeling it is much more complex than a swap of a couple components.  This is the "holy grail" for some owners, so if it works, you have done yourself a service for the community.  Best of luck and keep us posted.  Your rewards are ahead of you if it does!  ;-T
-Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 15, 2012, 01:18:32 PM
This is interesting that someone is going to give this idea a shot.  I have a feeling it is much more complex than a swap of a couple components.  This is the "holy grail" for some owners, so if it works, you have done yourself a service for the community.  Best of luck and keep us posted.  Your rewards are ahead of you if it does!  ;-T
-Kevin

Thanks!  That is kind of the allure of doing this, exploring new territory.  With all of the recent advances in manufacturing, who knows?  Maybe a company could reproduce four valve small block heads with a 3D printer.  Heck, they are already printing AR15 rifles.  I am really tempted to go whole hog on this, put on a Ed Milich 850 big bore kit, different cam, etc...
But my goal at this point is to see just how stock I can keep everything, and see what difference a four valve head makes on a modern small block.  To get to this point, I have had to change the ECU, and install an autotune and Power Commander.  The nice thing with that swap complete, I can set the air fuel ratio I want with my laptop, based on a wideband O2 sensor, so compensating for the increased airflow through the heads becomes an easy five minute programming change.  I gotta give a big shout out to Todd at Guzzitech for making that possible.  Heck, two years ago it wouldn't have been.  Once the heads are here I will post pictures of the work.  Fun times indeed!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2012, 01:49:27 PM
Yes, I saw the cutouts on your thread.  Thanks for posting that BTW!  Im digging into some parts books now, trying to determine if the V75 two valve engine ran a different part number piston than the V75 four valve.   If they did, I figure I could try to get some factory pistons from a V75 four valve...
I'm going to get bronze valve guides installed as well.  MotoInternational in Seattle has six in stock.  I've found two more in Germany, so gotta order them.  Thinking about just ordering eight guides from Germany, and new circlips, and having Millenium Technologies install them.  

Mac Dennis, a Guzzi guru and all around good guy that doesn't post here told me..

Quote
I use Randy Long in Honey Brook, PA.

New guides $15 each, insert, lap, clean, $65 a head.

They come back looking like new. It's hard to beat.

He does a great job of fixing broken cooling fins too.

Mac

In another post, he said Randy can make valves, too. Just a heads up.. if I had needed head work, I'd sure have sent mine to him.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: ed@guzzipower.com on December 15, 2012, 04:50:29 PM
You will, at a minimum, need to make pistons. V75 have 22mm wrist pin, v65 lario are 20mm. The two valve and four valve pistons are completely different designs- the former is Heron head, latter is a pent roof. Using stock pistons will produce an abnormally low compression ratio. ~7:1 or so.

You may be better off starting with a complete lario motor and doing a big bore kit.

Smallblocks are very different animals from big blocks, especially when you start trying to mix and match.


Ed Milich
Guzzipower.com
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: goog64 on December 15, 2012, 04:54:35 PM
Wow, this is a really cool idea Mike.
I'm looking forward to how it turns out.  ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 15, 2012, 04:56:46 PM
You will, at a minimum, need to make pistons. V75 have 22mm wrist pin, v65 lario are 20mm. The two valve and four valve pistons are completely different designs- the former is Heron head, latter is a pent roof. Using stock pistons will produce an abnormally low compression ratio. ~7:1 or so.

You may be better off starting with a complete lario motor and doing a big bore kit.

Smallblocks are very different animals from big blocks, especially when you start trying to mix and match.


Ed Milich
Guzzipower.com


Ok, thanks for that.  Looks like I will have to source some pistons.  It will be interesting to see what comes up whilst doing this conversion!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 15, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
Wow, this is a really cool idea Mike.
I'm looking forward to how it turns out.  ;-T

Yes, it will be a fun time.  Thinking about pistons now, or if I should just mill the head or cylinder to get the compression and valve clearance I want. Arias will make me some pistons, just got off the phone with them, but I sure would like to use the stock ones, make it an easier swap.  Guess we will see.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 15, 2012, 06:44:20 PM
My thoughts, for what it's worth...

Having pistons made or finding correct pistons is the best course of action IMO. I don't know how you would ever be able to use the stock V7C pistons - the dished crown is totally wrong for the 4 valve head. I don't think you could mill the heads or cylinders enough to bring the compression ratio up to where it should be either.

Might be tough to find, but maybe V75 GT pistons? Same 80mm bore and 74mm stroke as the V7C, though I wonder if they have 20mm wrist pins like the Lario. Might be possible to enlarge the hole in the piston to 22mm if there's enough material in the casting.

Lario pistons (80mm also) with custom-made connecting rods (to work with the longer stroke and 20mm pins) might be another possibility.

Just throwing some ideas out there.   
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 15, 2012, 07:07:45 PM
My thoughts, for what it's worth...

Having pistons made or finding correct pistons is the best course of action IMO. I don't know how you would ever be able to use the stock V7C pistons - the dished crown is totally wrong for the 4 valve head. I don't think you could mill the heads or cylinders enough to bring the compression ratio up to where it should be either.

Might be tough to find, but maybe V75 GT pistons? Same 80mm bore and 74mm stroke as the V7C, though I wonder if they have 20mm wrist pins like the Lario. Might be possible to enlarge the hole in the piston to 22mm if there's enough material in the casting.

Lario pistons (80mm also) with custom-made connecting rods (to work with the longer stroke and 20mm pins) might be another possibility.

Just throwing some ideas out there.   

Thanks for that, I have been searching for a part number for the V75 GT pistons, but no luck so far.  Arias will make me some, no problem, if I can't find some that will work from another source.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 15, 2012, 10:04:55 PM
Have you sourced the flat top pistons yet?

 :+1 on the dyno runs before and after!

Doing some research on pistons, found some interesting info.  The pertinent specs for each bike:
V7C:
Compression ratio  9.6:1
Stroke  74mm
Bore  80 mm

Lario:
Compression ratio  10.3:1
Stroke  64mm
Bore  80 mm

So the V7Classic piston will travel 5 mm higher in the bore than the Lario piston in a Lario engine.  I will have to cc the combustion chamber in the Lario heads when they come in, cc the combustion chamber in the top of the V7C piston, and then factor in the 5mm longer stroke of the V7C crank at the top of its travel.  That area works out to 25 CC's!  Quite a bit.  It will be interesting to calculate the final compression ratio with the stock piston in place.  It will of course be lower than the stock V7C ratio.  It will be interesting to see how much.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Vasco DG on December 16, 2012, 02:35:57 AM
You will, at a minimum, need to make pistons. V75 have 22mm wrist pin, v65 lario are 20mm. The two valve and four valve pistons are completely different designs- the former is Heron head, latter is a pent roof. Using stock pistons will produce an abnormally low compression ratio. ~7:1 or so.

You may be better off starting with a complete lario motor and doing a big bore kit.

Smallblocks are very different animals from big blocks, especially when you start trying to mix and match.


Ed Milich
Guzzipower.com

This.

I wish the project every success but it is NOT going to be easy. As Ed says pistons, preferably using the 750 rods and 22mm Gudgeons are to be preferred. I don't know who is providing Guzzi with smallblock rods nowadays but if its the same mob as are making the rods for the 8V's they are very, very nice items.

Due to different strokes and different rod/stroke ratios you simply cannot 'Plug & Play' like you can with most of the older Big Blocks. To even make a start you'll need to get a pair of pistons side by side and measure stuff like deck height. From there you'll need to start volume calculations to get an acceptable CR. Heat will be a big issue. Skirt length on the pistons will need a bit of thought.

Pete
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Trevor G on December 16, 2012, 04:33:33 AM
Doing some research on pistons, found some interesting info.  The pertinent specs for each bike:
V7C:
Compression ratio  9.6:1
Stroke  74mm
Bore  80 mm

Lario:
Compression ratio  10.3:1
Stroke  64mm
Bore  80 mm

So the V7Classic piston will travel 5 mm higher in the bore than the Lario piston in a Lario engine.  I will have to cc the combustion chamber in the Lario heads when they come in, cc the combustion chamber in the top of the V7C piston, and then factor in the 5mm longer stroke of the V7C crank at the top of its travel. 

The difference is made up in the barrels, not the heads.

The heads are the same for the 750 and 650 cc engines.

I have a set of barrels and pistons for a 750 4 valve I bought several years ago from Germany. The pistons are the standard 22mm wrist pin for a 750.

I have a spare set of heads.

Cheers

Trevor G
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 16, 2012, 08:22:46 AM
The difference is made up in the barrels, not the heads.

The heads are the same for the 750 and 650 cc engines.

I have a set of barrels and pistons for a 750 4 valve I bought several years ago from Germany. The pistons are the standard 22mm wrist pin for a 750.

I have a spare set of heads.

Cheers

Trevor G

So the 750 barrels are taller?  To make up for the increased stroke of the 750 crank?  I'm having a hard time finding a part number for the 750 4 valve pistons.  If anyone has a part number for those...I can see whats available... ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 16, 2012, 10:45:39 AM
Thanks!  That is kind of the allure of doing this, exploring new territory.  With all of the recent advances in manufacturing, who knows?  Maybe a company could reproduce four valve small block heads with a 3D printer.  Heck, they are already printing AR15 rifles.  I am really tempted to go whole hog on this, put on a Ed Milich 850 big bore kit, different cam, etc...
But my goal at this point is to see just how stock I can keep everything, and see what difference a four valve head makes on a modern small block.  To get to this point, I have had to change the ECU, and install an autotune and Power Commander.  The nice thing with that swap complete, I can set the air fuel ratio I want with my laptop, based on a wideband O2 sensor, so compensating for the increased airflow through the heads becomes an easy five minute programming change.  I gotta give a big shout out to Todd at Guzzitech for making that possible.  Heck, two years ago it wouldn't have been.  Once the heads are here I will post pictures of the work.  Fun times indeed!

The four valve heads are very alluring on these sb's.  Don't know if you heard, but myself/Ed are setting about taking a Lario to a new place never explored (to my knowledge).  He is raising compression, adding larger valves, fitting bigger carbs, and reducing recip. weight.  I have a stocker and love its pull.  I think there's more refinement to be had hence the project.  Keep at it with yours.  Gonna be tough, but anything is possible.
-Kevin 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: leafman60 on December 16, 2012, 10:50:03 AM
I was wondering about what happened to that project.  Any movement on it ?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: guzzi4cats on December 16, 2012, 11:41:27 AM
It will be fascinating to watch your latest project develop.

I stopped in at a fellow Italian Motorcycle Club member's house two weeks ago. He has a lovely V35 Imola that is currently fitted with a V50 motor. On the bench was a beautifully restored V65 Lario motor that is destined for the Imola! He is running Suzuki GN250 valves & springs.

Kurt

Has anyone else any experience of using GN250 valves in the Lario?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: rocker59 on December 16, 2012, 12:56:16 PM
Why in the world didn't Guzzi develop a new set of 4-valve heads for the V7 series when they did this latest upgrade?  Oh, we've already been through all of that ....

I wonder the same thing.  Why didn't they downsize the setup from the current big block 8v?  Only Piaggio knows...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 16, 2012, 01:37:41 PM
Has anyone else any experience of using GN250 valves in the Lario?

Yes... I used them.  They work great, though I haven't tested WAY up top.  Not necessary for my style, but no valve float where I have been.
-Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 16, 2012, 02:18:02 PM
I was wondering about what happened to that project.  Any movement on it ?

Yes.. see here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=58366.0

Updated today, but need image hosting site as I see we can't post directly anymore.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on December 16, 2012, 06:18:30 PM
The four valve heads are very alluring on these sb's.  Don't know if you heard, but myself/Ed are setting about taking a Lario to a new place never explored (to my knowledge).  He is raising compression, adding larger valves, fitting bigger carbs, and reducing recip. weight.  I have a stocker and love its pull.  I think there's more refinement to be had hence the project.  Keep at it with yours.  Gonna be tough, but anything is possible.
-Kevin 

Yes, I think it will be well worth the time and money invested.  I have been following your project...what a cool build!  It will be pretty nice to get the small block breathing better!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 13, 2013, 10:21:35 AM
mwrenn
I missed this thread in December.
Will you keep us in the loop on your progress?
You are exploring uncharted territory I believe  ;-T

Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 13, 2013, 10:30:02 AM
Thanks for that, I have been searching for a part number for the V75 GT pistons, but no luck so far.  Arias will make me some, no problem, if I can't find some that will work from another source.

They have the data from me, but we already discussed that :)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 13, 2013, 06:45:58 PM
It is taking a lot of parts to get this conversion done....

2 heads, 8 valve springs, 8 lower spring seats and 8 uppers, 16 valve keepers, 4 exhaust valves and 4 intakes, 2 pistons.....that's 50 parts so far.

Also going into this are 2 valve covers, 2 rocker assemblies, 4 pushrods, 4 tappets, all the gaskets, and some outside service work, DLC coating on the tappets and cam, seat work on the heads, etc...

The project is proceeding well however...just waiting for parts to come in at this point.  Many thanks to IceBlue for all of his help on this...it would be much more difficult to make the conversion without his help, and this forum!   ;D

Here is a teaser pic...

 (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/V7c%20deer%20strike/photo_zps60acddc0.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 14, 2013, 12:01:05 AM
Wow man... yours may be done before mine. You are doing great!  Keep it up. Likely more to learn from yours than mine from a conversion standpoint at least. Yours is taking a 2 valve machine to the next level, mine is taking the 4 valve version to the next level. Yours could be a game changer for many more. This will be fun to watch happen.
Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 14, 2013, 05:03:54 AM
It is taking a lot of parts to get this conversion done....

2 heads, 8 valve springs, 8 lower spring seats and 8 uppers, 16 valve keepers, 4 exhaust valves and 4 intakes, 2 pistons.....that's 50 parts so far.

Also going into this are 2 valve covers, 2 rocker assemblies, 4 pushrods, 4 tappets, all the gaskets, and some outside service work, DLC coating on the tappets and cam, seat work on the heads, etc...

The project is proceeding well however...just waiting for parts to come in at this point.  Many thanks to IceBlue for all of his help on this...it would be much more difficult to make the conversion without his help, and this forum!   ;D

Here is a teaser pic...

 (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/V7c%20deer%20strike/photo_zps60acddc0.jpg)


I'm curious Mike. By the looks of it, (and you told me too) you are going to upgrade an Imola II head to a Lario head (I just love the looks of a brand new 4V head - RAAAARE) - I have heard none do that before. How will you go about this? As we agreed, the Imola II head has smaller valves, and a smaller combustion chamber, this also means longer valves/lower seats IMO. It will take some doing/machining - and I will bow to touch your boots if you get this right  :bow

Ciao
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on January 14, 2013, 06:13:39 AM
I'm waiting with bated breath too.  I like smallblock mods, and this is a good one.  Keep us posted.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 14, 2013, 09:52:38 PM
Some good questions here on converting the Imola II head to a Lario head.  So far, all the information I have gathered leads me to believe that the intake and exhaust ports are the same dimension as the Lario head.  The combustion chamber is the same as well.  The only difference I am aware of at this time is the valve seats.  However...comma.... :D  I want to confirm this for sure.  To that end I have ordered a stock Lario head from Martin at Guzzi PIU shop.  (It was on sale)!  When that head arrives next week or so I will be able to measure exactly all of the dimensions and compare them.  So far I have measured the length of a stock Imola II exhaust valve and a stock Lario exhaust valve, and they are the same.  The Imola II combustion chamber measures 22.5 cc's.  With some stock V75 pistons, I will have a compression ratio of 10.2:1.  Thanks to Brian, again, for posting the link for the V75 pistons and rings on ebay.  The seller is shipping them tomorrow.  I am having a lot of fun with this project already, and so far all I've done is parts research...LOL!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271133009688?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 14, 2013, 10:00:26 PM
You're going to have the hottest late-model Guzzi small block on the planet Mike. Congratulations!

He he..fun..getting this going.  I'm planning to ride to see my parents in Prescott this summer, I'll have to swing by on the way and see you.  I can check out the Racer!!!
Cheers!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 14, 2013, 10:12:18 PM
He he..fun..getting this going.  I'm planning to ride to see my parents in Prescott this summer, I'll have to swing by on the way and see you.  I can check out the Racer!!!
Cheers!

Who will have the racer??!!  ;)
-Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 15, 2013, 03:39:08 AM
Some good questions here on converting the Imola II head to a Lario head.  So far, all the information I have gathered leads me to believe that the intake and exhaust ports are the same dimension as the Lario head.  The combustion chamber is the same as well.  The only difference I am aware of at this time is the valve seats.  However...comma.... :D  I want to confirm this for sure.  To that end I have ordered a stock Lario head from Martin at Guzzi PIU shop.  (It was on sale)!  When that head arrives next week or so I will be able to measure exactly all of the dimensions and compare them.  So far I have measured the length of a stock Imola II exhaust valve and a stock Lario exhaust valve, and they are the same.  The Imola II combustion chamber measures 22.5 cc's.  With some stock V75 pistons, I will have a compression ratio of 10.2:1.  Thanks to Brian, again, for posting the link for the V75 pistons and rings on ebay.  The seller is shipping them tomorrow.  I am having a lot of fun with this project already, and so far all I've done is parts research...LOL!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271133009688?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
Congrats getting the stock pistons - rare catch  ;-T

One note on the combustion chamber of the Lario head vs. the Imola II head. The Lario head's "pent roof" part of the combustion camber measure 7 x 5,5cm, the Imola chamber 6,5 x 5cm. The Lario valves are 95,5mm long and the Imola II valves are 99,25mm. Not much diff. but almost 4mm. This indicates (not conclude though) that the "roof" of the Imola combustion chamber is lower, than that of the Lario, which again with the diameter I listed of the two chambers suggest a smaller chamber on the Imola II vs. the Lario head.

Here are the two heads side by side. Its a bit hard to see due to the carbon on the Imola II head. The chamber has a sort of super elliptic circle at the gasket base of the head. This is what I measured. The two mills use the same rocker assembly, so geomitry is very similar. The Imola II has shorter push rod's though. The tappets will have to be modified for the V75 push rods, or new tappets must be installed. A small cup installed in the 8V tappets elevates the point of contact to the push rod in the 8V tappets.

(http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y405/iceblue1955/Guzzi%208V%20small%20block%20stuff/IMG_02291_zps40d82375.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 15, 2013, 05:59:59 AM
Brian,
     From pic you show of the Imola Head, his looks like a Lario head (yours on the left).
-Kevin 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 15, 2013, 06:54:20 AM
Brian,
     From pic you show of the Imola Head, his looks like a Lario head (yours on the left).
-Kevin 

Yes they look VERY similar, but they are not - the Imola head are different on the points I have listed above the pic.  Just bring out the "yard stick" and you'll see  ;D
You can see the valves are smaller too on the Imola head, the shop manual will tell you too  :)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 15, 2013, 08:23:03 AM
After blowing your pic up I can now see the chamber through the blackness. I thought it was round. It is not.
Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 15, 2013, 08:31:45 AM
After blowing your pic up I can now see the chamber through the blackness. I thought it was round. It is not.
Kevin

No - it's a super ellipse or a squircle, like the Lario head - just a bit smaller.

(http://www.math.harvard.edu/archive/21a_fall_09/exhibits/superegg/superellipse.png)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: bad Chad on January 15, 2013, 09:13:42 AM
I wonder the same thing.  Why didn't they downsize the setup from the current big block 8v?  Only Piaggio knows...

I highly suspect it is all about marketing.   If you look what they are doing with the small blocks you can see a plan in action.  First Aprilia does a work over of the SB to bring it up to a more modern function with the Breva 750 and Nevada.  A few years later, Piaggio does another, pushing it a bit farther with the latest v7 series and Nevada.   Sales have been increasing all along, once the first gen v7 series came out it became guzzi biggest selling line.  With the second gen v7 series sales have surged forward even more.   It seems clear to me Piaggio will run this current line as long as it can, and at some point when sales numbers begin to level off or decline the 3rd gen v7 series will come out, with a 4v head. 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 15, 2013, 09:55:07 AM
I highly suspect it is all about marketing.   If you look what they are doing with the small blocks you can see a plan in action.  First Aprilia does a work over of the SB to bring it up to a more modern function with the Breva 750 and Nevada.  A few years later, Piaggio does another, pushing it a bit farther with the latest v7 series and Nevada.   Sales have been increasing all along, once the first gen v7 series came out it became guzzi biggest selling line.  With the second gen v7 series sales have surged forward even more.   It seems clear to me Piaggio will run this current line as long as it can, and at some point when sales numbers begin to level off or decline the 3rd gen v7 series will come out, with a 4v head. 

Yeah, and that's when they release the V7 Racer. Woops... already did that. I'm not buying the fact that they have master plan. I'm not doubting 4-valve heads some day, but they will have to change away from the series they've about tapped out with. Where do you go from "Racer"?  ::)
Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: bad Chad on January 15, 2013, 10:05:20 AM
Why?   What's wrong with the RACER GT or some such?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Unkept on January 15, 2013, 10:16:40 AM
Why?   What's wrong with the RACER GT or some such?

I want to see a name like.... Moto Guzzi V7 Racer SS 8v LE ;)

Subaru gets pretty ridiculous with their limited edition STi models in Japan. For example: Subaru Impreza WRX STi Version 5 Type RA 555 Limited  :BEER:

Best of luck on your conversion! I think it would be awesome if they simply "scaled down" the 8v motor. They made a 500cc V8 once, why couldn't they scale down the relatively simple 8v design?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 15, 2013, 10:47:32 AM
Maybe they'll raise the bore size to 850 while they're at it and finally bring back the "lemans".   ;-T  

I suppose their "limited production" on the first "Racer" might have been to see how it was received.  It was received quite well from a looks standpoint, but if they listened to the "talk" (which we can only hope!) they may have heard it's a sheep in wolves clothing.  Maybe they could bring it up again as truly a "Racer" (in Guzzi standards anyhow) with a new mill.  I can see it the more I think of it.

-Kevin  
  
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: rocker59 on January 15, 2013, 11:47:32 AM
  Where do you go from "Racer"?  ::)
Kevin

Four Valve Heads
Factory Half Fairing
Factory Ohlins Suspension
Seventeen Inch Front Wheel

Etc, Etc...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: rocker59 on January 15, 2013, 11:49:35 AM
   It seems clear to me Piaggio will run this current line as long as it can, and at some point when sales numbers begin to level off or decline. the 3rd gen v7 series will come out, with a 4v head. 

And that's when I'll have another smallblock in my garage!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 15, 2013, 11:55:04 AM
Four Valve Heads
Factory Half Fairing
Factory Ohlins Suspension
Seventeen Inch Front Wheel

Etc, Etc...

You're making my mouth water with that talk.  ;-T
Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Unkept on January 15, 2013, 02:04:36 PM
You should check this guys ad out -> http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17836 (http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17836)
- 4 pushrods, very good condition, 8 valve specific
- 2 cylinderhead covers, left and right, good condition, 8valve specific
- oilpan, suitable for any V65, good condition
- brake fluid container for rear brake, good condition
- a pair of rockerarm assemblys (left and right), 8 valve specific, very good condition
- camchain, (8valve specific?), very good condition
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on January 15, 2013, 07:43:46 PM
Racer, Bonneville, Ninja, Thunderbird, Fury, etc etc ad infinitum!

You'd have to be a grumpy old man to get your panties in a bunch over motorcycle nomenclature!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 15, 2013, 11:40:52 PM
Yes they look VERY similar, but they are not - the Imola head are different on the points I have listed above the pic.  Just bring out the "yard stick" and you'll see  ;D
You can see the valves are smaller too on the Imola head, the shop manual will tell you too  :)

Thanks for the input on that Brian!  When the Lario head gets here I will be able to do a side by side comparison and see about the combustion chamber dimensions.  I have spoken with Millenium Technologies about the head work, if I need to change the combustion chamber, they can do it for me. http://www.mt-llc.com/head.php

On the issue of the valves being different lengths, I have a stock Lario valve that I measured for length, and it was the same as the Imola II valve.  I will take a picture of them next to a scale ruler tomorrow night and post it.  Brian, you say the parts book lists the Imola valve as shorter?  I don't have a Imola II parts book.  Can not find one.  Still gathering information!  ;-T

Cheers!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 15, 2013, 11:46:00 PM
Just give me a heads-up. The V7R isn't getting enough riding.

Will do!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 15, 2013, 11:49:01 PM
You should check this guys ad out -> http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17836 (http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17836)
- 4 pushrods, very good condition, 8 valve specific
- 2 cylinderhead covers, left and right, good condition, 8valve specific
- oilpan, suitable for any V65, good condition
- brake fluid container for rear brake, good condition
- a pair of rockerarm assemblys (left and right), 8 valve specific, very good condition
- camchain, (8valve specific?), very good condition


Thanks for the heads up!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 16, 2013, 01:19:11 AM
Thanks for the input on that Brian!  When the Lario head gets here I will be able to do a side by side comparison and see about the combustion chamber dimensions.  I have spoken with Millenium Technologies about the head work, if I need to change the combustion chamber, they can do it for me. http://www.mt-llc.com/head.php

On the issue of the valves being different lengths, I have a stock Lario valve that I measured for length, and it was the same as the Imola II valve.  I will take a picture of them next to a scale ruler tomorrow night and post it.  Brian, you say the parts book lists the Imola valve as shorter?  I don't have a Imola II parts book.  Can not find one.  Still gathering information!  ;-T

Cheers!

Hi Mike
It's not the Imola parts manual. It's in the Imola II/Monza II/Lario shop manual. Let me know if you do not have it. It also covers the Lario. You can then do a spec. comparison on valves, bores ect. Even the V50 Monza II is covered too, but that bugger uses the Lario heads.

I've heard a lot about Millinium Tech. Chuck has use them too for replating a cylinder I believe. You depinately have to keep us posted on this as you go along.

Ciao  :)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: guzzi4cats on January 16, 2013, 02:10:46 PM
As a matter of interest, my book lists both Imola II valves as longer at 99.25mm, against 95.65mm for the Lario inlet, with the exhaust valve at 95.55mm. Mind you, the same table gives exhaust valve lengths of max 99.55, min 95.25 for the Monza II!  Hmm, a tolerance of over 4 mm! Must be a typo, but it makes me wonder what you can believe. You need a head like a lawyer I reckon! I must say though I'm find this search for information fascinating and I thank you all for making this forum so interesting, not to mention enlightening.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 16, 2013, 10:08:28 PM
Well, there is a little confusion here, I ordered an Imola II head from Teo Lamers.  I have the head now and was assuming it was for an Imola II.  This evening I removed one of the exhaust valves to compare with a new Lario valve.  The dimensions were the same!  Valve diameter as well as length.  At this point I think maybe they sent me a Lario head by mistake, or at some point in the past a previous owner put bigger valves on their Imola II.  At this point I'm not going to worry about the valve lengths, I will just document carefully the parts I get for this project, and go from there.  I do have a known Lario head coming from Martin at Guzzi PIU, and I have a known Imola II head to compare it to, so the comparison I post here will be accurate.  Anyway, here is a picture of the new Lario valve next to the "Imola II'  valve.  LOL

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo3_zpsc11cb59e.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 17, 2013, 12:14:08 AM
Well - having a spare Lario head isn't bad at all - just in case  ;)
I have a couple myself, and hope never to use them as replacements on my Lario's, but as parts to rebuild additional mills one may come accross and take pitty on  ;D

My suggested valve spring solution, as so many other solutions, although similar in natur, are still very much based on faith. Not many or non has piled the number of km/miles on one to be conclusive about the solution, but that's part of the fun and excitement right  :o ::) ;) ;D

There are no two ways about replacing the cam shaft if the existing one has 12mm lobes, Guzzi did that to all the 8V's some time in 1986 - engine numbers available in Guzziology, but the springs in relation to the Lario, is solely based on what Guzzi did to the 2V/head SB's documented in the 750cc SB shop addendum. They never suggested it to the 4V/heads. My assumptiom is they just wanted to forget about them at the time they did this to the 2V/head SB's, and one has to bear in mind, that these springs being softer, will allow "valve float" on, or just after the red line.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 17, 2013, 12:36:40 PM
Well - having a spare Lario head isn't bad at all - just in case  ;)
I have a couple myself, and hope never to use them as replacements on my Lario's, but as parts to rebuild additional mills one may come accross and take pitty on  ;D

My suggested valve spring solution, as so many other solutions, although similar in natur, are still very much based on faith. Not many or non has piled the number of km/miles on one to be conclusive about the solution, but that's part of the fun and excitement right  :o ::) ;) ;D

There are no two ways about replacing the cam shaft if the existing one has 12mm lobes, Guzzi did that to all the 8V's some time in 1986 - engine numbers available in Guzziology, but the springs in relation to the Lario, is solely based on what Guzzi did to the 2V/head SB's documented in the 750cc SB shop addendum. They never suggested it to the 4V/heads. My assumptiom is they just wanted to forget about them at the time they did this to the 2V/head SB's, and one has to bear in mind, that these springs being softer, will allow "valve float" on, or just after the red line.

Yes, having spare parts is never a bad thing!  The main reason I wanted the spare head was for for actual side by side comparison to establish the differences between the Lario and Imola II parts.  And to establish what exactly is necessary to convert the Imola II to something that a Lario could use.   ;-T

The rev limiter on my V7 Classic is set at 7600 rpm, so I think the Nevada springs will work out fine.  ;D  I am looking forward to riding the bike for many miles after the conversion!  I really want what I'm doing to be a solid long term fix to the cam/valve breakage problems.
Cheers!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 17, 2013, 12:57:21 PM
I would go positively nuts, if Guzzi would revamp the 8V SB and apply a solution like this on a new revamped Lario release. It should not be this complicated to the Piaggio engine nerds. I'd keep it air cooled though  ;D  ...and apply the looks close to the new V7 line of mill - they are one of the best looking SB engines in a long time. They have a flair of 8V look to them  ;D

(http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/sons_of_biscuits/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/mariani_ducati.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Travman on January 17, 2013, 01:02:01 PM
I would go positively nuts, if Guzzi would revamp the 8V SB and apply a solution like this on a new revamped Lario release. It should not be this complicated to the Piaggio engine nerds. I'd keep it air cooled though  ;D

(http://www.italian.sakura.ne.jp/sons_of_biscuits/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/mariani_ducati.jpg)
What exactly are we looking at here. I recognize the bottom end as a Ducati, but what is on top?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 17, 2013, 01:14:51 PM
It's a prototype Ducati by Mariani according to "Dogwalker"

This is the cut through - imagine this timing gear as the front look of a new 8V SB Guzzi mill  :o  Would only take new heads/pistons and a new timing cover.

(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/prototipo-motore-mariani-ducati-coppie-coniche/big_mariani_ducati_cgm_2009_02.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on January 17, 2013, 01:21:58 PM
That bevel drive is really expensive compared to a chain or belt drive.
The latest chain drive MG is a very good design, IMHO. Water cooling is inevitable to meet emission regulations, and increase power with reduced fuel consumption.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 17, 2013, 03:59:05 PM
Why are the intakes connected to each of the cylinders and not tb's?
-K
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: rocker59 on January 17, 2013, 04:04:55 PM
Why are the intakes connected to each of the cylinders and not tb's?
-K

They're not.  The 2D image is deceiving you.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on January 17, 2013, 04:37:59 PM
Late model bevel - awesome.

Much more costly and labour intensive to manufacture, potentially fragile - but elegant and beautiful!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 17, 2013, 04:48:13 PM
Late model bevel - awesome.

Much more costly and labour intensive to manufacture, potentially fragile - but elegant and beautiful!

Speaking of elegant and beautiful.. look at the casting for the 4V small block valve mechanism.. ;-T
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/009-2_zpscf268a56.jpg)

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Travman on January 17, 2013, 07:25:52 PM
It's a prototype Ducati by Mariani according to "Dogwalker"

This is the cut through - imagine this timing gear as the front look of a new 8V SB Guzzi mill  :o  Would only take new heads/pistons and a new timing cover.

(http://static.blogo.it/motoblog/prototipo-motore-mariani-ducati-coppie-coniche/big_mariani_ducati_cgm_2009_02.jpg)
That is a cool concept with a nod to Ducati's history with bevel driven cams. It looks like the concept is using traditional valve springs. If they are going to use bevel driven cams it seems they should stick with Desmodromic cams.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 18, 2013, 01:32:49 AM
Speaking of elegant and beautiful.. look at the casting for the 4V small block valve mechanism.. ;-T
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/009-2_zpscf268a56.jpg)



 :+1  ;-T
One of many things I like about the 8V SB's  The engine itself look so much better than it's contemporary SB mills. It has some competision now from the new V7 line - that mill looks cool too - but lacks the extra valves  ;)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on January 18, 2013, 03:39:45 AM
That bevel drive is really expensive compared to a chain or belt drive.
The latest chain drive MG is a very good design, IMHO. Water cooling is inevitable to meet emission regulations, and increase power with reduced fuel consumption.
As said earlier, Piaggio Group chief engineer already stated that air cooled engine will survive the next emissions regulations (Euro-4 and Euro-5 have already been decided), even with a pratical limitation to 100 hp/l.
This means that it would be possible to have an emission compliant small block 800cc, air-cooled, engine, with 80hp.
So, it will be possible to do all the middleweight range, with the exception of the supersport, with one engine (enduro/crossover, sport naked,  touring, supermotard...), just see what BMW and Ducati does with their 800cc engines of similar prestations, and with the advantage that the Guzzi engine would also be suitable, as is,  for vintage and custom/cruiser bikes.
Chain, or belt, drive are less expensive than bevel drive, but they require redesigning the basement, cause they must be placed behind the cylinders. In front, they are a too big aerodynamic obstacle.
Bevel drive, as said, besides being beautiful and technically attractive, requires only the redesign of the heads and the front cover of the engine.
So, "really expensive", what does it means for a mass produced engine, with components purchased in blocks of thousands? 50 Euros for engine? It could easily turn to be a saving. Actually, we see that bevel drive is used in the Kawasaki W800, that is not an expensive bike, for aestetic reasons only.

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 18, 2013, 07:12:59 AM
Quote
This means that it would be possible to have an emission compliant small block 800cc, air-cooled, engine, with 80hp.

I'll buy that new Guzzi.  ;D Wonder if it'll be here when I'm still young enough to ride it? ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on January 18, 2013, 09:03:24 AM
As said earlier, Piaggio Group chief engineer already stated that air cooled engine will survive the next emissions regulations (Euro-4 and Euro-5 have already been decided), even with a pratical limitation to 100 hp/l.
This means that it would be possible to have an emission compliant small block 800cc, air-cooled, engine, with 80hp.
So, it will be possible to do all the middleweight range, with the exception of the supersport, with one engine (enduro/crossover, sport naked,  touring, supermotard...), just see what BMW and Ducati does with their 800cc engines of similar prestations, and with the advantage that the Guzzi engine would also be suitable, as is,  for vintage and custom/cruiser bikes.
Chain, or belt, drive are less expensive than bevel drive, but they require redesigning the basement, cause they must be placed behind the cylinders. In front, they are a too big aerodynamic obstacle.
Bevel drive, as said, besides being beautiful and technically attractive, requires only the redesign of the heads and the front cover of the engine.
So, "really expensive", what does it means for a mass produced engine, with components purchased in blocks of thousands? 50 Euros for engine? It could easily turn to be a saving. Actually, we see that bevel drive is used in the Kawasaki W800, that is not an expensive bike, for aestetic reasons only.



In another thread we read that MG is moving to liquid cooling. Actions speak louder than words, so that is how I take the pronouncements of an engineer.
You mention re-designing the "basement" as if that would only be neccessary for chain or belt. Doing so for a bevel drive will be much more complicated, and if said bevel drive can be made at the front, so can chain and belt.
And really expensive does apply to bevel drive; there many more parts, some of them precision machined and adjusted, while none of that is needed for belt or chain. The Kawa engine uses one shaft and because they do use a shaft drive doesn't mean it's not expensive.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on January 18, 2013, 09:54:50 AM
In another thread we read that MG is moving to liquid cooling. Actions speak louder than words,
And the action is the California 1400 engine.

You mention re-designing the "basement" as if that would only be neccessary for chain or belt. Doing so for a bevel drive will be much more complicated,
Really, no. If you know the disposition of the SB engine placing a pair of shafts and bevel gears in front of the engine, does not require any redesign of the block.

and if said bevel drive can be made at the front, so can chain and belt.
In fact the chain has been placed behind the cylinders in the new 4V. Chains and belts requires a box to contain them, placing it right in front of the cylinders means to greatly reduce the cooling. This does not apply, of course, to the shaft drive.

And really expensive does apply to bevel drive; there many more parts, some of them precision machined and adjusted, while none of that is needed for belt or chain. The Kawa engine uses one shaft and because they do use a shaft drive doesn't mean it's not expensive.
A Bevel drive has many more parts than a chain drive? How many?
And, so I asked, what does it means "really expensive"? have you an idea? I can see that the W800 use it, for aestetic reasons only, and it's not an expensive bike. So, how many $ for engine, for a mass produced engine?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on January 18, 2013, 10:28:48 AM
And the action is the California 1400 engine.
Really, no. If you know the disposition of the SB engine placing a pair of shafts and bevel gears in front of the engine, does not require any redesign of the block.
In fact the chain has been placed behind the cylinders in the new 4V. Chains and belts requires a box to contain them, placing it right in front of the cylinders means to greatly reduce the cooling. This does not apply, of course, to the shaft drive.
A Bevel drive has many more parts than a chain drive? How many?
And, so I asked, what does it means "really expensive"? have you an idea? I can see that the W800 use it, for aestetic reasons only, and it's not an expensive bike. So, how many $ for engine, for a mass produced engine?

A bevel drive has precision parts. Spiral bevel gears must be hobbed, while sprockets for chain and belts can be made of sintered material. Bevel gears require precision mounting and adjustment, while chains and belts do not. All of that addds up to "really expensive".
I very much doubt anything can be done to the existing block without a re-design, for certain a bevel drive could not be bolted onto existing structure. Chains and belts can easily be run through passages created in existing parts, much the like we see pushrods running within the cylinder casting.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on January 18, 2013, 11:16:44 AM
A bevel drive has precision parts...
I know, thanks, so I asked: what does it means "really expensive"? have you an idea? How many $ for engine, for a mass produced engine? Since the existance of bevel drived bikes in the middle range market seems to demonstrate that producing them is not impossible, it would be interesting to know before to say it is too expensive to be produced.

Bevel gears require precision mounting and adjustment, while chains and belts do not.
Really? That's new. I had always thought that timing adjustement requires precision for chains and belts too.

I very much doubt anything can be done to the existing block without a re-design,  for certain a bevel drive could not be bolted onto existing structure.
Really? Given that the bevel gear would be placed on the head of the existing camshaft, where once there was the distributor, why not?

Chains and belts can easily be run through passages created in existing parts, much the like we see pushrods running within the cylinder casting.
Since this would require to put a pair of sprockets inside the engine (a very compact and "crowded" one like the SB), where today there is none, I do not see it that simple.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 18, 2013, 11:41:16 AM
Quote
I know, thanks, so I asked: what does it means "really expensive"? have you an idea? How many $ for engine, for a mass produced engine? Since the existance of bevel drived bikes in the middle range market seems to demonstrate that producing them is not impossible, it would be interesting to know before to say it is too expensive to be produced.

Spiral bevel gears *are* very expensive to produce, and the manufacturing tolerance is much fussier. If Honda (or even Kawasaki) with their thousands of units produced were doing it, you might have an argument. With Guzzi's few hundred (in a good year) units, it would add *considerably* to the cost, IMHO. Just sayin..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 18, 2013, 11:51:20 AM
Spiral bevel gears *are* very expensive to produce, and the manufacturing tolerance is much fussier. If Honda (or even Kawasaki) with their thousands of units produced were doing it, you might have an argument. With Guzzi's few hundred (in a good year) units, it would add *considerably* to the cost, IMHO. Just sayin..

Not to mention the "noise" they produce...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on January 18, 2013, 01:27:46 PM
Spiral bevel gears *are* very expensive to produce, and the manufacturing tolerance is much fussier. If Honda (or even Kawasaki) with their thousands of units produced were doing it, you might have an argument. With Guzzi's few hundred (in a good year) units, it would add *considerably* to the cost, IMHO. Just sayin..
The W800 engine is used only in the W800, that is produced in some thousands per year.
Guzzi SB are produced in some thousands per year (now that the line is composed with V7 and Nevada only. As i Said, an 80HP SB would be good to made some other model too).
It seems quite comparable to me.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on January 18, 2013, 04:58:56 PM
I know, thanks, so I asked: what does it means "really expensive"? have you an idea? How many $ for engine, for a mass produced engine? Since the existance of bevel drived bikes in the middle range market seems to demonstrate that producing them is not impossible, it would be interesting to know before to say it is too expensive to be produced.
Really? That's new. I had always thought that timing adjustement requires precision for chains and belts too.
Really? Given that the bevel gear would be placed on the head of the existing camshaft, where once there was the distributor, why not?
Since this would require to put a pair of sprockets inside the engine (a very compact and "crowded" one like the SB), where today there is none, I do not see it that simple.

The precision mounting and adjustment of bevel gears is in addition to the timing requirement. Which model Guzzi engine had the distibutor mounted on the camshaft? None I know of.
You obvioulsy know little about gear trains, so get yourself educated and get back to us when you have.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on January 18, 2013, 06:41:37 PM
Which model Guzzi engine had the distibutor mounted on the camshaft? None I know of.
Guzzi SB with the distributor placed at the end of the camshaft (is mo more there in the IE models).
(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9044/img0466d.jpg)
(http://www.carlopetrini.it/motoguzzi/salvapuntine/Paolo_Puntine.jpg)

The end of the camshaft (above)
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3048/img0472ni.jpg)

The camshaft
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4198/img0481y.jpg)

You obvioulsy know little about gear trains, so get yourself educated and get back to us when you have.
Sorry, but I do not consider arrogance a valid argument, and, so far, it does not seems to me that you've proven to know much of the subject you're talking about.
Are you plural in some way?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on January 18, 2013, 06:54:35 PM
I don't see a distributor in the photos. Can you try again?

Here's a photo of a Ducati timing chest-not much is similar to the MG, starting with the big ball bearing supporting the crankshaft, which drives the gear train.
As I stated earlier, your knowledge of gear trains is far from complete.

(http://www.teamyikes.com/Resources/chest_0382.JPG)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on January 18, 2013, 07:05:13 PM
I don't see a distributor in the photos.
Then the bevel gear can not be put there for a matter of semantics? Must be a new field of mechanics.

Here's a photo of a Ducati timing chest-
As I stated earlier, your knowledge of gear trains is far from complete.
Sorry, but that photo is not an argument. You can see another interpretation of the same subject in Mariani's prototype above. There is no requirement for a bevel gear to be attached directly to the crankshaft. Is only one of the possible choices.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on January 18, 2013, 07:16:12 PM
Then the bevel gear can not be put there for a matter of semantics? Must be a new field of mechanics.
Sorry, but that photo is not an argument. You can see another interpretation of the same subject in Mariani's prototype above. there is no reason for the bevel gear to be attached directly to the crankshaft. Is only one of the possible choices.
Sematics it is not. You don't understand the basic definitions of engine architecture.
But you were quite happy to post photos in support of your erroneous opinion.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on January 18, 2013, 07:22:17 PM
You were quite happy to post a photo to support your erroneous opinion.
I thought you might have understood what I was talking about anyway. Unfortunately, it seems that dialectical questions continue to interest you more than mechanical ones.

So, can you tell me a reason for which a bevel gear can not be placed there (the fact that in an Ducati engine was in another place, is not a big reason)?


You don't understand the basic definitions of engine architecture.
Arrogance is still not a valid argument for me.
So far, it does not seem to me that you brought much to support your points.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on January 18, 2013, 07:30:39 PM
I thought you might have understood what I was talking about anyway. Unfortunately, it seems that dialectical questions continue to interest you more than mechanical ones.

So, can you tell me a reason for which a bevel gear can not be placed there (the fact that in an Ducati engine was in another place, is not a big reason)?

So far, it does not seem to me that you brought much to support your points.

I already explained why. You chose to ignore that.
Good day and good bye.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on January 18, 2013, 07:33:19 PM
I already explained why.
Really? I must have missed it. Can you do a summary? Something that starts with: "the bevel gear can not be placed there because..." followed by some real mechanical reason, so that even an ignorant like me can understand.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on January 18, 2013, 08:31:02 PM
I don't think mwrenn is looking to put bevel drive on his SB, just Lario heads. You guys probably need to start a thread!  :-*
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 18, 2013, 10:34:20 PM
I don't think mwrenn is looking to put bevel drive on his SB, just Lario heads. You guys probably need to start a thread!  :-*

LMAO!  Thanks for that. Its funny, all the talk of bevel drives, water cooling etc...I like Guzzi's because they are dead simple, easy to work on, and easy to become passionate about.  Guess I'm just old school that way. I'd take a Pratt&Whitney R985 over a PT6A-67 anyday! 

Pushrod actuated valves and aircooling has worked for a lot of years.  I'm all about improving things, but there is something to be said for proven designs that work.  And that are economical to modify...LOL

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo4_zpse5d96d14.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 19, 2013, 02:59:44 AM
LMAO!  Thanks for that. Its funny, all the talk of bevel drives, water cooling etc...I like Guzzi's because they are dead simple, easy to work on, and easy to become passionate about.  Guess I'm just old school that way. I'd take a Pratt&Whitney R985 over a PT6A-67 anyday!  

Pushrod actuated valves and aircooling has worked for a lot of years.  I'm all about improving things, but there is something to be said for proven designs that work.  And that are economical to modify...LOL

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo4_zpse5d96d14.jpg)

Wow is that a cool pic or what ;-T  On a serious note though, the valve train on the Lario is its weak point The SB mill was originally designed for 2V heads. Hence the cam lobe, tappet issues managing now twice the springs and valve assemblies. Some kind of OHC design would fix the weakness once and for all. In spite of this I sure like the 8V SB's - and consider it a challenge to make them last  :)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on January 19, 2013, 06:17:03 PM
That is a good point Brian.  Just my opinion, but I think the design is sound, I believe it was more the materials that were used to assemble the original bikes that was the problem.  Cam wear and valve breakage caused by increased spring pressure, which was necessary to stop valve float at high rpm.  To be frank, what I'm doing on my project is really only part of a fix.  After all, I'm going to be limited on the RPM to 7600, and to really make power I should be turning up to 9000 or so.  I am attempting to make a reliable engine though, so I will keep the rpm's down.  I think with the Ferrea super alloy valves I'm installing, the DLC coating on the cam and lifters, and bronze guides in the heads, I will be ok.  I guess we will see...LOL  I have all the parts ordered now, its just a matter of waiting for them to arrive, and then shipping out the heads, cam and lifters for work.   ;-T ;-T ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chas H on January 19, 2013, 06:55:05 PM
There. Fixed it for ya!

Thanks for that! It's not often I come across someone that never made a spelling misteak.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on January 19, 2013, 11:17:34 PM
That is a good point Brian.  Just my opinion, but I think the design is sound, I believe it was more the materials that were used to assemble the original bikes that was the problem.  Cam wear and valve breakage caused by increased spring pressure, which was necessary to stop valve float at high rpm.  To be frank, what I'm doing on my project is really only part of a fix.  After all, I'm going to be limited on the RPM to 7600, and to really make power I should be turning up to 9000 or so.  I am attempting to make a reliable engine though, so I will keep the rpm's down.  I think with the Ferrea super alloy valves I'm installing, the DLC coating on the cam and lifters, and bronze guides in the heads, I will be ok.  I guess we will see...LOL  I have all the parts ordered now, its just a matter of waiting for them to arrive, and then shipping out the heads, cam and lifters for work.   ;-T ;-T ;-T

I guess you are doing a "Kevin" - at least on the valve train  ;D  Your bike will likely last into the next millenium  ;-T
Can't wait to hear the first ride report  ;-T ...and yes, if Guzzi had used better materials, and the wider cam from the start, they would have had a lot less issues IMHO, perhaps even as little as other later SB's, but in the middle of the remediation process it looked like Guzzi just dropped the ball and ran away from the 8V SB's. Sad IMO.

Ciao
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2013, 11:17:55 PM
Well, things are proceeding apace with the project.  The main thing that takes time is the shipping of parts from Italy and Germany.  At this point I have located all the parts necessary to complete the conversion, I have to wait until they arrive, then send the heads off for new bronze guides, send the cam and lifters in for DLC coating, complete the initial dyno run with the stock heads etc...
I thought I would post a few pictures of the progress to this point.  Tonight I removed the right hand head and cylinder in order to weigh the existing piston.  I removed the exhaust, intake, and fuel tank to start with.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo15_zpsafe6ced0.jpg)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo16_zpsa76bca62.jpg)


Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2013, 11:19:46 PM
The cylinder looks good with 15,000 miles on it, the hone marks look fresh.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo13_zpsaa385248.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2013, 11:26:43 PM
There are two issues that have come up, both managable.  The original cylinder base studs are too short for the 4 valve configuration.   You can see that two of the outboard studs don't even come through the head.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo12_zps37713bb6.jpg)

Fortunately a cylinder stud kit for a Volkswagen Beetle has the exact length, diameter, and thread that I need.  10mm x 240mm, and 10mm x 214mm.  Both in a 1.5 thread per mm pitch.  The VW studs are chromemoly from CB performance, they should do the trick.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo10_zps3c880d60.jpg)

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2013, 11:33:08 PM
The other issue is that the stock rh head incorporates a cylinder temp sensor for the fuel injection computer.  I do not think this will be an issue with my new heads.  I have installed a re-flashed ECU from Todd at Guzzitech, and a Power Commander V with Autotune.  This lets me adjust the fueling based on what the O2 sensor is reading.  I am pretty sure the CHT input is not used anymore.  I will have to study up on that though.  Here you can see how the CHT sensor is mounted in the 2 valve head.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo14_zpsb70418dd.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 10, 2013, 11:49:58 PM
Great info Mike  ;-T

I needed a set of studs too a while back for a 750 8V project. At that time the ony way even Martin Hagemann could help me was selling me an additional used V75/4 crank case - happy for that today, as it turned into an additional mill later on  ;D

Great work and great info ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2013, 11:53:34 PM
And now for the moment of truth, piston weight.  The piston that came out of the engine was 306.2 grams.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo9_zps0c974ec7.jpg)

The stock V75 four valve piston is a bit heavier at 341.2 grams.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo8_zps2a5782ca.jpg)

Both pistons were weighed with rings.  An interesting note,  the V75 wrist pin is a lot heavier than the V7 Classic wrist pin.  16 grams heavier.  At this point I am going to either lighten up the V75 pistons, or order some pistons from Arias that are the proper weight.  

So far the list of unforeseen obstacles to this project has been easy to handle.

I have ordered Kibblewhite valves, so that I should not have a valve failure.
I have been able to order the proper pushrods, which are longer than the Lario pushrods.
I have been able to get four valve cylinder heads from Martin at Guzzipiushop.
Martin also supplied me with four Lario tappets, which must be used with the 4V setup.
Cylinder studs came from CB performance, a VW racing supply shop.
Nevada valve springs, seats, retainers etc..all came from TLM.
Pistons were found on ebay in Italy, or Arias can make them.

And the list goes on.  I'm sure it will be worth it in the end, at least the bike should breathe better.
As the build progresses I will post more pics.  Now I gotta go study up on CHT sensor inputs, see if I even need it..lol
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 11, 2013, 12:00:47 AM
Great info Mike  ;-T

I needed a set of studs too a while back for a 750 8V project. At that time the ony way even Martin Hagemann could help me was selling me an additional used V75/4 crank case - happy for that today, as it turned into an additional mill later on  ;D

Great work and great info ;-T

Yes, I think that the studs will work perfectly.  Looking forward to getting it together, and the dyno comparison!  Thanks for all of your help!   ;-T ;-T :BEER: :BEER: :BEER:
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on February 11, 2013, 02:05:32 AM
Great thread  ;-T

Watching with keen interest!  :bow
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2013, 05:38:16 AM
Quote
Great work and great info
;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: muzak on February 11, 2013, 09:03:12 AM
Any chance you will have this ready by RvM in a few months? I'd love to see this thing in the flesh when you're finished.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 11, 2013, 09:55:36 AM
Both pistons were weighed with rings.  An interesting note,  the V75 wrist pin is a lot heavier than the V7 Classic wrist pin.  16 grams heavier.  At this point I am going to either lighten up the V75 pistons, or order some pistons from Arias that are the proper weight.  


Couldn't you also have the crank (re)balanced to work with the new heavier pistons? 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on February 11, 2013, 11:38:01 AM
Couldn't you also have the crank (re)balanced to work with the new heavier pistons? 

When I dropped in an 820cc kit the new pistons were heavier too.  A machinist with cycle building experience was able to lighten the pistons.  Don't have the numbers handy, but I think he was able to get them within 5-10% of the weight of stock pistons.  They have worked fine, although with a slight increase in vibrations.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 11, 2013, 10:01:10 PM
Any chance you will have this ready by RvM in a few months? I'd love to see this thing in the flesh when you're finished.

A definite maybe...Still have to send the heads off for new seats and guides, I guess it will depend on how long that takes.  I hope it will be done!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 11, 2013, 10:03:14 PM
Couldn't you also have the crank (re)balanced to work with the new heavier pistons? 

Yes, but it is just easier and faster to lighten the pistons, rather than opening up the case you know...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 25, 2013, 05:32:30 PM
A quick update, maybe a little bit off topic.  I have arranged with Millenium Technologies to scan and digitize the Lario heads that I have.  They can then take those measurments for the intake port, exhaust port, and combustion chamber, and machine the new Imola II heads to match the Lario heads.  Once the program is created, they will be able to do that with any Imola II head that comes in, as I will have paid for the R&D on the digital scan.  After they machine the Imola II heads, they will install the new bronze guides and new valve seats.  Costs for the scanning are pretty reasonable, $250 for each port, and $150 for the combustion chamber.  Then machining and installation of the seats and guides will be another $278 per head.  But after the first time, they can do an Imola II head for $278.  So not too bad, $1300 for the R&D, and about $560 to do the head work that I would do to the Lario heads anyway. 

And now for the off topic part of this post, got some new wheels today for the V7 Classic, they are quite a bit lighter.  The stock spoked steel wheel on the front weighs 15 pounds with the inner tube, the new wheel is 11.5, and no tube needed!  Whoo Hooo!!!

 (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo4_zps08056ce4.jpg)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo3_zpse88bae47.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 25, 2013, 05:47:06 PM
Sir, I salute you!  ;D  ;-T I assume that Imola heads are available? It would be absolutely great to not have to worry if I trash a head.  ;D If spending a little money will fix it.. no problem.  ;) ;D NLA sends a shiver through my spine. I've dealt with that stuff on antique airplanes entirely too often.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on February 25, 2013, 05:52:28 PM
I dip my hat to you. 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on February 25, 2013, 05:56:09 PM
Awesome news on both counts!

Looking forward to pics of your beastie with all the new additions in place  ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 25, 2013, 07:26:54 PM
A teaser picture..lol  Man it is tempting to just assemble what I have and run it!  But I want to get this research done, and it's winter anyway, so I just have to be patient.  Heads are shipping to Millenium this week.  That is the last outside service or parts I will need, then it's a before Dyno run with the two valve heads, and an after Dyno run with the four valve setup.  I'm hoping for a 15% increase.  Not sure if that is realistic, I guess we will see.   ;-T ;-T

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo11_zpsd76a2645.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 25, 2013, 07:39:42 PM
Sir, I salute you!  ;D  ;-T I assume that Imola heads are available? It would be absolutely great to not have to worry if I trash a head.  ;D If spending a little money will fix it.. no problem.  ;) ;D NLA sends a shiver through my spine. I've dealt with that stuff on antique airplanes entirely too often.
I got to looking at the Imola II heads, because I have been wanting to do this conversion for a year now, and could not find a set of Lario heads.  That is how I started down the path of converting the Imola heads.
So far I have been able to get two pair of Imola II heads, one new set from Teo Lamers, for 100 Euro each.  Then found a used pair on Ebay, in the UK.  Bought the heads, valve covers, rocker assemblies, cam and lifters for $140.  Not too bad.  Martin at GuzziPIU shop currently has used Lario heads in stock, on sale for 300 Euro.  That seems pretty reasonable to me.  ;-T :BEER:
But I'm still going to get the scanning done, just to have that program available.  Gotta keep these 4V small blocks running!  I'm pretty passionate about them.  LOL  Brian said it right, once you get the bug, you are hooked!!   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: leafman60 on February 26, 2013, 08:35:22 AM
Fabulous effort that I bet will pay good dividends.  I wish the factory had done as much when they "redesigned" the 750 top-end.

I'm also interested in how the power train will handle the expected power increase.

Thanks for your work !
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 26, 2013, 08:45:43 AM
Fabulous effort that I bet will pay good dividends.  I wish the factory had done as much when they "redesigned" the 750 top-end.

I'm also interested in how the power train will handle the expected power increase.

Thanks for your work !

I would not expect any problem with the power train with the increases he's looking at. I'm talking a reasonable driver. You take any Goose and do burnouts day in and day out and the PT probably will suffer.
Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 26, 2013, 01:59:01 PM
The Guzzi Baja Dakar bikes got the crap beat of them and most of the failures were in the frame and wheels. They did use a swingarm and rear hub from a LeMans adapted to the SB gearbox though so that much for sure is entirely different from what Mike will be using. I haven't seen any reports on the current swingarm assembly experiencing failures in recent years (I could be oh so totally wrong...) so perhaps the weak points of years prior have been resolved. One would hope so anyway.

Hey Mike, does a digital scan imply that they could make entire heads?

Sounds like they are just digitizing the combustion chamber and ports. Still good news for repairing "unrepairable" heads.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 26, 2013, 06:25:50 PM
The Guzzi Baja Dakar bikes got the crap beat of them and most of the failures were in the frame and wheels. They did use a swingarm and rear hub from a LeMans adapted to the SB gearbox though so that much for sure is entirely different from what Mike will be using. I haven't seen any reports on the current swingarm assembly experiencing failures in recent years (I could be oh so totally wrong...) so perhaps the weak points of years prior have been resolved. One would hope so anyway.

Hey Mike, does a digital scan imply that they could make entire heads?


I will call and ask, sounded like to me they have to have something to work with though.  I don't think they could do an entire head.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 26, 2013, 08:04:29 PM
Well... triple kudos to Mike for an offer I couldn't refuse on his old laced rims. Yeah... I think this guy deserves a Medal of Honor for helping my finances with my bike build. Good karma awaits him on this one!  Next time anyone needs something I have, I will pass along Mike's well-wishes.
So... talked with Ed and Mike is sending the rims along to him for the build. I love laced rims firstly, and secondly, I will be taking my Lario to a new place down the road. I will eventually strip her and do as Chuck is doing, except minimize dressing her back up. In other words, she will be cafe'd. Laced rims are the only route to go, so now she will sport fishnets early. One less thing to do later. I have my stock Lario, don't need two. Not sure how she'll look for now. Any photoshoppers out there who can put these on a Lario?  Ed is looking into adding a second disc up front.
A big thank you to Mike on this!!!
Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 27, 2013, 03:44:13 AM

I will call and ask, sounded like to me they have to have something to work with though.  I don't think they could do an entire head.

I'd been looking to do this for a few years, but since I still can wip up heads here, I'm too much a mizer to fork out the money. However, degitizing the heads fully, would make possible a production, as well as implementing a few improvements like slightly wider cooling fins. This would serve two purposes, like better cooling and look better too. I always liked slightly over sized heads compared to the cylinder, like the Ippo. Looks cool right  :)  Just 1-2mm over shooting the diameter of the cylinder.

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x69/Holt_Anders/v7ippo2.jpg)

Imola II heads are often available in Italy - I guess a lot of Imola II's were roaming the Italian roads over the years. BTW - these hemi heads would give from 63-67 bhp on the crank - about the same as the 4V heads. Oh well - the 750 Ippo/aero mill has been discussed here more times than I can remember. Another lost opportunity on the shelves of Guzzi...  Beyond me, they didn't wip them up for the latest V7 engine development.

I  :bow to you work Mike!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on February 27, 2013, 06:44:05 AM
Fabulous effort that I bet will pay good dividends.  I wish the factory had done as much when they "redesigned" the 750 top-end.

I'm also interested in how the power train will handle the expected power increase.

Thanks for your work !

I'm eager awaiting the end results.  However...I love the Heron heads.  It's the last production motorcycle with them, and it gives a broad powerband that starts down low in the rpm range.

With a marque as small as Guzzi, if they started making 4 valve heads I fear the would drop the Herons.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 27, 2013, 06:58:53 AM
I'm eager awaiting the end results.  However...I love the Heron heads.  It's the last production motorcycle with them, and it gives a broad powerband that starts down low in the rpm range.

With a marque as small as Guzzi, if they started making 4 valve heads I fear the would drop the Herons.

I know what you mean about the heron heads Joe.  They are a good design.  I remember my first pickup truck was a 1953 Dodge with an inline six, and a heron head.  It didn't have a lot of power, but it would always start, no matter what.  I just remember liking that it was simple enough for me to work on. LOL!  With what Guzzi has vested in the new redesigned small block, those heron heads will be around for a while yet.   ;-T ;-T ;-T
Gotta love the hemi design too!  LOL
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 27, 2013, 07:12:49 AM
I'd been looking to do this for a few years, but since I still can wip up heads here, I'm too much a mizer to fork out the money. However, degitizing the heads fully, would make possible a production, as well as implementing a few improvements like slightly wider cooling fins. This would serve two purposes, like better cooling and look better too. I always liked slightly over sized heads compared to the cylinder, like the Ippo. Looks cool right  :)  Just 1-2mm over shooting the diameter of the cylinder.

Yes, don't get me started on the Ippo/aero heads.  One of these days.... :) :) :)  ;-T ;-T ;-T
I'd like to give it a few years, and buy a 2013 Racer and put some square cylinders and Ippo heads on it....sheesh!!   This small block obsession is hard to shake!  LOL
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 27, 2013, 12:49:17 PM
Yes, don't get me started on the Ippo/aero heads.  One of these days.... :) :) :)  ;-T ;-T ;-T
I'd like to give it a few years, and buy a 2013 Racer and put some square cylinders and Ippo heads on it....sheesh!!   This small block obsession is hard to shake!  LOL

It would be a major achievement just to get your hands on the heads/pistons/cylinders/rockers/covers and pusg rods. No one wants to admit either having the parts/mills or know how to get their hands on the stuff...

It's a dream of mine, but a good 8V SB mill will pretty much do the same as the hemi 4V aero mill  8)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on February 27, 2013, 02:58:07 PM
Whatever happened with that Guzzi powered drone (with the Ippo/Areo engine) that was being offered for sale last year in southern USA?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 28, 2013, 02:34:21 AM
Whatever happened with that Guzzi powered drone (with the Ippo/Areo engine) that was being offered for sale last year in southern USA?

It just seemed to vaporize...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on February 28, 2013, 07:22:40 AM
It just seemed to vaporize...

I recall that just the engine was offered, but at a high price.  About as much as a new bike.  It would be great to play with.  Like so many things....
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on June 04, 2013, 08:18:41 PM
Well, a quick update.  I had precision machining make me some custom weight wrist pins, so now my piston/ring/wrist pins are within 1/2 gram of the original pistons.  Kibblewhite fabricated some intake and exhaust valves for me.  I just got the Imola heads back from Millenium Cylinders.  There are a few more issues to fix, then I am ready to assemble the heads on the engine.  Right now the heads need to go back to Millenium so that they can deck the heads for higher compression.  Also they are going to remove some fins on the right hand head, and drill and tap for the cylinder head temp sensor.  When I get the heads back, they are going on the bike.  A few pics:
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo_zps62d14eb5.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/photo_zps62d14eb5.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/photo3_zps6213b161.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/photo3_zps6213b161.jpg.html)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Penderic on June 04, 2013, 08:36:01 PM
 :bow
Our Hero!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on June 04, 2013, 09:22:33 PM
Oh man!  Explain those pics.  Bronze I take it?  What kind of compression you looking at getting?  what kind of valve size?  We might get ours done about the same time.  Both will be VERY interesting.  Both seems expensive!  :o  Hey... if Guzzi aint gonna do it somebody has to.  ;-T
Keep us posted.
-Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on June 04, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
This is really exciting  ;-T

Totally uncharted territory. Seems like Millenium has their ducks in a real nice row working these heads out.
You and Kevin are pioneers, and paving a nice road others may travel fully or partly when you are done  ;-T
You have gone way beyond stock on your mills doing stuff the next guy has only thought about.

Ciao
Brian
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on June 05, 2013, 08:16:39 AM
Mwrenn, I tip my hat to you.  That is great work.  Keep me posted on the results.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on July 05, 2013, 11:48:30 AM
Any news Mike? I'm running out of  :pop   ;)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on July 07, 2013, 12:10:16 PM
Hey Brian, nothing new to report :(.  In order to get the CHT probe hole placed in the head, I have to remove the existing right hand head from my bike and ship it to Millenium so that they can match it.  Of course that means my bike will be unrideable until the work is done.  I am waiting until summer is over before I do that, the weather is just too nice to have my bike taken apart!  I will probably do it in September, and finish up the project then.  As a side note, I had bronze guides and seats installed for better heat transfer.  The Imola heads are .090 inches thicker than the Lario heads, so I need to have that dimension removed to keep the same compression ratio, and the valvetrain geometry correct.  Hope you are having a good summer.  Thanks for the Lario Facebook page by the way!  I have used a lot of the information from there to help with my project!
Cheers.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on July 07, 2013, 11:32:31 PM
You are so welcome Mike. Happy to be of service.

I wouldn't take apart my bike in the middle of season either if I could avoid it. You are executing a unique project, and I assume a lot of Guzzita will be following the results.

We have nice weather here too - finally - so my Lario is constantly on the road. The rest of the herd is a bit neglected  ;D

Ride safely.

Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: AbuDaoud on September 23, 2013, 07:36:01 AM
       

                            ???             Another very interesting thread that seems to have dropped off into some Twilight Zone?!? What happened to this motor?     :PICS!:
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: misterg on September 24, 2013, 09:15:48 AM
       

                            ???             Another very interesting thread that seems to have dropped off into some Twilight Zone?!?

 ;-T

 :pop
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 05, 2014, 12:11:18 PM
Any news Mike - I know a few who are rather exited about your project  :)

Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on July 30, 2014, 05:17:46 PM
*bump*

Hope all is well Mike.

You still have an eager audience for this very cool snd unique upgrade!

Kurt
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on July 30, 2014, 08:37:39 PM
Yes Mike, any updates to the project?  I can offer up that my experience with the hopped up Lario has been fantastic after getting the fueling together.  Pretty incredible what can be had with a little upgrading from stock.  Much patience is understood from your audience, but any updates appreciated.
-Kevin
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 04, 2015, 10:05:27 PM
I am finally back in business, able to work on this project.  I have all the parts I need....I think.
I removed the two valve heads this evening, planning on swapping out the cam tomorrow night.
Hope to have the bike running by next week.
Apologies for my long absence!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on February 05, 2015, 02:53:45 AM
Happy to hear of that, and waiting for the photos!  ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on February 05, 2015, 06:16:12 AM
Excellent!

Kurt
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 05, 2015, 06:20:10 AM
Alrighty, now! Let's get this show on the road..  ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 05, 2015, 08:19:33 AM
You got my attention. I'm all eyes. 😳


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 05, 2015, 10:30:24 AM

Me too :pop
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on February 05, 2015, 01:22:17 PM
Me too :pop

My eyes are wide open.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 05, 2015, 06:16:19 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSi0XGrR5i2lYBlFRuK-xNf4PKjLDCtBoOr3noEgunBbSjs91LP)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 05, 2015, 07:47:26 PM
I'll get some photos up tonight! 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 05, 2015, 10:58:38 PM
well, you can tell i live on a dirt road..got the Stator pulled off and hung out of the way. Used a 15/16ths socket and an impact wrench to pull the rotor.  was going to remove the timing cover and cam, but decided to work on the cylinders some...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg1_zpskkzi4nvo.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg1_zpskkzi4nvo.jpg.html)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 05, 2015, 11:06:32 PM
Got this cylinder off...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg4_zpsuihtxs5e.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg4_zpsuihtxs5e.jpg.html)

Removed the cylinder studs, the top two studs are going to be relocated to the bottom two holes. the Volkswagen studs go in the top two holes.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg5_zpsvmxlvvme.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg5_zpsvmxlvvme.jpg.html)

Got the studs in this side...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg7_zpsoafmiuei.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg7_zpsoafmiuei.jpg.html)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 05, 2015, 11:16:46 PM
Pulling the studs on the right side. Using the stud tool makes it pretty easy. 

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg6_zpsbzud96zf.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg6_zpsbzud96zf.jpg.html)

Here is why I have to change the cam.  The Lario cam is on the right.  The left is a new V7 Classic cam that I got from Harpers.  The lobes are DLC coated. No way to make the Lario cam work with the later model ECU.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg5_zpsfi24axdp.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg5_zpsfi24axdp.jpg.html)

Stuff that I took off tonight...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg8_zpsupidss55.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg8_zpsupidss55.jpg.html)

And stuff to go back on....

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg9_zpsy5jl2bks.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg9_zpsy5jl2bks.jpg.html)

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 05, 2015, 11:21:22 PM
Tomorrow evening the goal is to have the new cam and lifters installed, cam timed, chain and tensioner on, and timing cover on.  Have to see how it goes.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Frulk on February 05, 2015, 11:23:35 PM
 :pop....who needs cable!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Aaron D. on February 06, 2015, 06:44:04 AM
Did I miss the pistons? What are you using?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 06, 2015, 07:54:27 AM
<scratching head> How are you going to keep the lifters from falling down into the case when you pull the cam? I turned the engine upside down. Fortunately, I didn't have to learn how that babbitt (I think) thrust thingy (technical term) goes on the new cam..
This is going to be a great thread.. :pop
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 06, 2015, 08:03:08 AM
Did I miss the pistons? What are you using?

I'm using Guzzi V75 pistons that I got from eBay Italy.  Go back a couple of pages in this thread..there are pictures of them.  I had to have custom wrist pins made and get the pistons lightened for weight.  Trying to keep the balance the same.  The replacement pistons are within 1/10 of a gram of the stock ones now.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 06, 2015, 08:06:32 AM
<scratching head> How are you going to keep the lifters from falling down into the case when you pull the cam? I turned the engine upside down. Fortunately, I didn't have to learn how that babbitt (I think) thrust thingy (technical term) goes on the new cam..
This is going to be a great thread.. :pop

I can reach the lifters from inside the cylinder base hole....figured I would just hold them up as I pull the cam out...suppose I could clamp them up somehow, not sure I will need to.  I do not want to use anything magnetic on them.  We will find out tonight!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Howard R on February 06, 2015, 09:10:43 AM
One thing you might want to take note of: it looks like your alternator rotor is a permanent magnet type.  If it is, you should store the rotor inside the stator.  The rotor needs to be close to the "keeper" for reasons having to do with magnetic flux lines, domain walls, and entropy.  Short version is storing the rotor bare for days on end can weaken the permanent magnets, which will reduce the alternator output.  Other than that, keep up the good work, and keep the pictures coming!

Howard
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 06, 2015, 11:00:02 AM
Taking something to a new place is always intriguing. This is definitely new ground being broken.  Keep us posted and best of luck!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 06, 2015, 12:11:23 PM
I can reach the lifters from inside the cylinder base hole....figured I would just hold them up as I pull the cam out...suppose I could clamp them up somehow, not sure I will need to.  I do not want to use anything magnetic on them.  We will find out tonight!

 ;-T :pop
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 06, 2015, 06:35:34 PM
One thing you might want to take note of: it looks like your alternator rotor is a permanent magnet type.  If it is, you should store the rotor inside the stator.  The rotor needs to be close to the "keeper" for reasons having to do with magnetic flux lines, domain walls, and entropy.  Short version is storing the rotor bare for days on end can weaken the permanent magnets, which will reduce the alternator output.  Other than that, keep up the good work, and keep the pictures coming!

Howard

Good to know, I had not considered that!  I will keep them nested together.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 06, 2015, 11:58:14 PM
Got a lot done tonight, started by removing the timing cover.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg1_zpsihrpy7pb.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg1_zpsihrpy7pb.jpg.html)

I removed the cam gear and ignition wheel.  While trying to move the timing gear tensioner over, I broke the plastic piece off.  Oh well, I need to order a timing cover gasket and some new lock washers for the cam gear anyway.  Looks like a call to Harpers is in order..I removed the oil sender and pulled the cam out of the engine..I was able to hold the lifters in place with a wadded up blue paper shop towel..

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg2_zpskgsn3vtl.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg2_zpskgsn3vtl.jpg.html)

I took the collar off of the old cam by removing the little snap ring, then put it on the new cam.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg3_zpsffogcxal.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg3_zpsffogcxal.jpg.html)

I installed the new DLC Lario lifters in the case, and put the cam in. Coated the new cam with G-N metal assembly paste to help break in. Took a couple of pics of the lifters, the Lario ones are quite a bit different.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg5_zpsdzzevk48.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg5_zpsdzzevk48.jpg.html)


Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 07, 2015, 12:14:20 AM
Got the new cam in, lined up the retainer with the oil sender, torqued the sender down.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg6_zps9bwrxtph.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg6_zps9bwrxtph.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg8_zpsqf6hmofv.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg8_zpsqf6hmofv.jpg.html)

I decided to start working on the cylinder installation. The new wrist pins were very tight in the pistons, so I used a brake cylinder hone to ease it up some.  I found the the top two piston rings were the same dimension for both pistons, but the oil control ring is a lot wider on the two valve engine.  I wound up using the original top two rings that were running in the bike.  Mainly because I figured they were already broken in to the cylinder. I used the oil control ring that came with the replacement piston.  Lubed up the ring compressor and stuck the piston in the cylinder.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg10_zpszuutxoaq.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg10_zpszuutxoaq.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg11_zps10y7uxla.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg11_zps10y7uxla.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg13_zpsu0jzzvip.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg13_zpsu0jzzvip.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg12_zps8psdvgz6.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg12_zps8psdvgz6.jpg.html)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 07, 2015, 12:20:58 AM
I put on the cylinder base gasket, put in the little orange oring, stuck the wrist pin in the piston and set the whole assemblt on the case.  Pushed in the wrist pin and installed the circlips.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg14_zpsjw2eld8r.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg14_zpsjw2eld8r.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg15_zpsjahdrp86.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg15_zpsjahdrp86.jpg.html)

Installed the head gasket and put the head on.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg16_zpsolabraxg.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg16_zpsolabraxg.jpg.html)

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 07, 2015, 12:34:05 AM
I put on the Guzzi valve caps, put in the pushrods, put the guide collars on the top two studs.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg17_zpsrhata5el.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg17_zpsrhata5el.jpg.html)

Bolted down the rocker assembly.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg18_zpsa29qncyz.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg18_zpsa29qncyz.jpg.html)

A couple of things need to happen before I torque this down permanently. The top two Volkswagen studs are too long, so I need to pull them out one at a time and grind them off a little so the valve cover will fit. I also need to put some clay or something on top of the piston and check the valve to piston clearance, since I had the heads milled.  Dont want any bent valves!  I also noticed that these Imola II heads have the valve centers a little closer together, so the Lario rocker assembly will work, but it is not centered on the valve cap.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg20_zpssojco6kp.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg20_zpssojco6kp.jpg.html)



Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 07, 2015, 05:47:08 AM
You've been busy..  ;D
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg3_zpsffogcxal.jpg)
Thanks for that! I wondered how they were held on there.
I probably wouldn't have had cajones enough for this one..  ~; but a guy's gotta do what he's gotta do..
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg10_zpszuutxoaq.jpg)
Attaboy! Keep it up..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 07, 2015, 11:37:15 AM
You're on a roll Mike.  This takes some real skills to put it all together.  Go get'em!  ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 08, 2015, 01:19:11 AM
Impressive work Mike!! ;-T ;-T  :bow :bow

Noticed one thing. The progressive springs are upside down. The closely wound part of the spring should be and the base plate/retainer. Not at the top retainer. Is there a speciffic reason to turning them upside down Mike? The upside down position will leave more valve weight to be moved, lowering the top rpm.

The valve rockers not being centered on the valve stem is intentional. They are support to turn the valve slightly at each plunge  :)

Great you chose the Guzzi stem caps. My alternative suggestion turne out to be a poor choice. See Chucks Lario rehab thread.

Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 08, 2015, 07:53:34 AM
Impressive work Mike!! ;-T ;-T  :bow :bow

Noticed one thing. The progressive springs are upside down. The closely wound part of the spring should be and the base plate/retainer. Not at the top retainer. Is there a speciffic reason to turning them upside down Mike? The upside down position will leave more valve weight to be moved, lowering the top rpm.

The valve rockers not being centered on the valve stem is intentional. They are support to turn the valve slightly at each plunge  :)

Great you chose the Guzzi stem caps. My alternative suggestion turne out to be a poor choice. See Chucks Lario rehab thread.

Cheers
Brian

Ah,  thanks for that Brian,  I was wondering about the orientation of the spring when I assembled the heads.  No big deal to pull them back off and turn the springs over.  I have to pull the studs and shorten them anyway.
My plan this afternoon is to shorten the studs and drill the right hand cylinder for the head temp sender.
One step at a time..
Cheers,
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 08, 2015, 08:18:14 AM
Ah,  thanks for that Brian,  I was wondering about the orientation of the spring when I assembled the heads.  No big deal to pull them back off and turn the springs over.  I have to pull the studs and shorten them anyway.
My plan this afternoon is to shorten the studs and drill the right hand cylinder for the head temp sender.
One step at a time..
Cheers,

Took me a second to figure out what a "hand" cylinder was. Got it.   :P  Best of luck.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 08, 2015, 09:34:02 PM
Well, I had to do a bunch of dissassembly today, mainly to install the valve springs correctly and to shorten the Volkswagen studs to the right length.  I took the left cylinder back off, I decided to double check my final piston weights as compared to the original pistons.

Here is the new piston with the original top two rings and the V75 oil control ring, also with wrist pin and circlips:
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg2_zpsyxxaco0s.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg2_zpsyxxaco0s.jpg.html)

Here is the V7 Classic piston, with the original ring set, wrist pin, and circlips...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg1_zpsxjhehy8s.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg1_zpsxjhehy8s.jpg.html)

Got them pretty close.  The left side is the same, both assemblies weighing in at 407.8 grams.

Pulled the long studs out, cut off .250".  Reinstalled them and torqued them in the case to 370 in/lbs.
When I assembled the cylinder and installed the rocker assembly, I found that i had cut them too short!  Sheesh!!  Luckily the Volkswagen cylinder stud kit I bought came with 10 studs, so I had extra.  I wound up just putting uncut studs in the top holes, by the time I torqued them in the case, the length was perfect...

Here's a stud I cut next to a stock one...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg11_zpspigkstvs.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg11_zpspigkstvs.jpg.html)
 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 08, 2015, 09:40:31 PM
I took off the left cylinder head and removed the valve springs, turned them over and reinstalled them..

Some pics of that process:

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg6_zpsir7g7m0h.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg6_zpsir7g7m0h.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg7_zpsjcciod4f.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg7_zpsjcciod4f.jpg.html)

Got them in correctly now..Lol

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg10_zpskmv8ds0x.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg10_zpskmv8ds0x.jpg.html)

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 08, 2015, 09:47:27 PM
After getting the head back together, I assembled the piston back in the cylinder, installed it, put on the head gasket and head, put on the lashcaps, installed the pushrods, and did the final torque on the head.  I need to look up the valve clearance requirements before I put on the valve cover. Also, does anyone reading this have suggestions for spark plugs?  I am thinking about using stock plugs for the Lario, but not sure about the gap, with the electronic ignition..

A picture after torquing.  Note the stud length is fine..

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg12_zpsxx4jxkpi.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg12_zpsxx4jxkpi.jpg.html)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 08, 2015, 10:04:53 PM
I made the decision to mount the cylinder head temp sensor in the right hand cylinder, instead of the new head.  I figure cylinders are not as hard to get as four valve heads are.  I had a few criteria to meet as well. First of all I wanted it to function properly, and send accurate voltage to the ECU.  I also wanted it out of sight, and I needed the wire connector to reach it.  I also wanted to be able to remove it, in case it ever went bad and needed to be replaced.  I took the right cylinder out on the driveway and drilled a 13/32 hole in between the fins.  I located it just underneath and inboard of where the intake manifold mounts to the head. I then tapped the hole with a 12mm 1.50 pitch tap...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg2_zps1vltdnla.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg2_zps1vltdnla.jpg.html)

I sure hope this works...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg4_zpsrqt4e9ak.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg4_zpsrqt4e9ak.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg3_zpsitbc9bxg.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg3_zpsitbc9bxg.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg5_zpszqqlkpme.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg5_zpszqqlkpme.jpg.html)

Once I had the sender screwed in, I filled around it with some metal epoxy crap. 

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg1_zpsnattw75a.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg1_zpsnattw75a.jpg.html)

I wanted to make sure I had good heat tranfer to the sender, so once the epoxy set up some, I pulled the sender out.  I am going  to leave it overnight to set up.  I plan on chasing the threads out with the tap again, then hopefully I can just screw the sender in and torque it.  That's it for today.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg13_zpshhbbeqka.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg13_zpshhbbeqka.jpg.html)

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: SED on February 08, 2015, 11:08:52 PM
Wow, Great thread!   and great pictures.  Just ran through the whole thing again.

Don't know this for sure, but the head probably gets hotter than the cylinder because the exhaust gasses are in contact with it longer.  It certainly shows up on my cast iron single.  It might not be an issue if you can adjust the computer to compensate for a lower temp at the sender.  Again, not sure this is correct - others here can probably tell you what needs to happen.

Thanks for a great thread. Looking forward to the fire-up!   ;-T

Shawn
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 09, 2015, 04:32:52 PM
Quote
I need to look up the valve clearance requirements before I put on the valve cover. Also, does anyone reading this have suggestions for spark plugs?

Valve clearances are .004' and .005". Keep a close eye on them. If they get too wide, bad things happen. Fast.  ;D I've been running stock plugs to good effect. Patrick Hayes swears by iridium or platinum or something. I forget.. I'm old. Metalset is good stuff, but you knew that. Keep on keeping on... ;-T
 :pop 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 09, 2015, 07:31:46 PM
Use regular plugs in mine. May try iridiums again sometime fur kicks. Gaps aren't that sensitive. I've gone as far as 1 mm when it ran too rich. I'm around .80 or so now. As long as it jumps the gap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 09, 2015, 07:40:20 PM
Ok, .004 and .005.  Got it!  thanks for that.  I decided to go with NGK C8HSA plugs. The Lario calls for .023" spark plug gap.  the V7 Classic service manual calls for .023" to .027"  I figure I'll go with .025 and see how it works.
An interesting note, the spark plugs that fit the Lario head are smaller than the stock V7C plugs.  I ordered some parts from Harpers today, they are sending me the proper plug caps, and some 7mm wire and ends, so that I can fabricate the plug wires I need.  I knew I would need parts on this project that I had not anticipated..
Time to get to work!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 09, 2015, 07:44:23 PM
Use regular plugs in mine. May try iridiums again sometime fur kicks. Gaps aren't that sensitive. I've gone as far as 1 mm when it ran too rich. I'm around .80 or so now. As long as it jumps the gap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow, .080 gap...that's pretty big!  I take it the coils have no problem jumping that? What wires did you use?
I gotta read your thread again!!  lol
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 09, 2015, 07:44:44 PM
Quote
NGK C8HSA plugs. The Lario calls for .023" spark plug gap.

Worked for me...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 09, 2015, 07:45:42 PM
Wow, .080 gap...that's pretty big!  I take it the coils have no problem jumping that? What wires did you use?
I gotta read your thread again!!  lol

I think he means .8mm. .031"
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: John A on February 09, 2015, 08:33:31 PM
He's probly running a 44 amp magneto borrowed from a fuel car. Those things will kill you ,I'm told. :pop
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 09, 2015, 09:10:25 PM
Yes... mm not inch. While running rich Milich told me 1mm. Ran fine. I've lessened it because it's much leaner now. Stock C8HSA of course.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 09, 2015, 10:53:10 PM
Yes... mm not inch. While running rich Milich told me 1mm. Ran fine. I've lessened it because it's much leaner now. Stock C8HSA of course.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah ok. I have run .060 gap on some ignitions, gotta get my metric thang going...lol  I appreciate the input!

Tonight I cleaned up the threads in the cylinder for the CHT probe.  Torqued the studs in the right side of the case to 370 in/lbs.  I set the valve clearances on the left cylinder and installed the valve cover. I checked the oil ring gap on the right cylinder, it was at .007"  I did not check the top two rings, as they were running in the cylinder before.  I installed the piston in the cylinder, put it on the engine, put in the wrist pin and circlips, and called it a night. 

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/BE7AD90C-2CEF-45DA-96E7-6BFB17EE3C76_zpsqgdgssng.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/BE7AD90C-2CEF-45DA-96E7-6BFB17EE3C76_zpsqgdgssng.jpg.html)


(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/49BF4073-BBAC-4582-9AD7-853C9DE869BC_zpsrcoirdwp.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/49BF4073-BBAC-4582-9AD7-853C9DE869BC_zpsrcoirdwp.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/CA20BB71-70EC-43D4-B40B-E1600AF8428B_zpsctmuviri.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/CA20BB71-70EC-43D4-B40B-E1600AF8428B_zpsctmuviri.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/4F208D1E-0B0D-4BBA-81B4-FBFFF2A1E53E_zpssxvcdmm0.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/4F208D1E-0B0D-4BBA-81B4-FBFFF2A1E53E_zpssxvcdmm0.jpg.html)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Morizzi on February 10, 2015, 02:33:34 AM

Noticed one thing. The progressive springs are upside down. The closely wound part of the spring should be and the base plate/retainer. Not at the top retainer. Is there a specific reason to turning them upside down Mike? The upside down position will leave more valve weight to be moved, lowering the top rpm.


Sometimes i think I should just shut up and leave well enough alone but............ ::)

This doesn't sound right to me. The closer the winding the more easily they will compress. To reduce the weight moving with the valve you would want this up near the collets. That's the part of the spring that will compress first until they reach coil bind.

The wider the winding (the less turns per distance) the closer the spring is to being a rod that has no compression. That's how I remember it.

Bugging out now before the excrement hits the artificial wind machine.

Happy to be corrected.  :BEER:
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on February 10, 2015, 03:59:48 AM
I decided to go with NGK C8HSA plugs.
To me, it's better to go, for a start, with those prescribed for the V75 4V, not with those for the Lario. Originally they were the NGK C9H, or, better, the Denso U22FS-U (i find the Denso to be marginally better than the NGK).

http://www.globaldenso.com/cgi-bin/global/plug/euro/mc/mc-plug.cgi?action=search&filename=mc-91.txt&name=&cc=&FF=50
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 07:08:58 AM
Quote
I checked the oil ring gap on the right cylinder, it was at .007"

Isn't that too tight? I was thinking the spec was somewhere around .010.. I'll check and get back.
Edit:
Ok, I'm back after breakfast.  Gotta build strength for the day..  ;) looked in the V75 shop manual,and it sez:
Quote
oil scraper ring: mm 0.20 - 0.70 (in 0.0079 -
0.0275).
If it were me, I'd file a couple of thousanths off that end gap. It's *probably* ok, but out of spec. Better a lot loose than a little too tight.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 10, 2015, 07:15:10 AM
I might agree on the spring orientation as you're not pushing the mass of the spring before collapse if the orientation is less at the top where the pressing occurs. The throw is slightly lighter I would think since it's mostly happening at the top of the spring not the bottom. No?  Splitting hairs I realize.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2015, 08:10:36 AM
Isn't that too tight? I was thinking the spec was somewhere around .010.. I'll check and get back.
Edit:
Ok, I'm back after breakfast.  Gotta build strength for the day..  ;) looked in the V75 shop manual,and it sez:If it were me, I'd file a couple of thousanths off that end gap. It's *probably* ok, but out of spec. Better a lot loose than a little too tight.

Yes, I looked it up too,  I probably could have slid a .008 or.009 feeler in there.  .007 went right in with no hitch.
I might just pull it and check it again to make sure.  I'm going to get some clay tonight and check valve to piston clearance.  See where that is...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 08:45:30 AM
I didn't say anything about the spring orientation, because I don't know.  A guy could probably spend a few hours on the net.  ;D
Quote:
Coil Bind In any spring installation, coil bind is to be avoided at all costs. If the coils stack solid or bind at or before full lift, at a minimum, the now-infinite load on the valvetrain will cause its weakest link to fail. If you're lucky, the result is merely a bent pushrod. If you're not, you're looking at a broken spring, a dropped valve, or worse.

Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/valve-spring-in-engine-why-the-closer-coil-must-be-down.553482/

But.. beehive springs are installed with the tight coils up. Hmmm.
More research required.. back later.  ;)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 08:52:42 AM
Yes, I looked it up too,  I probably could have slid a .008 or.009 feeler in there.  .007 went right in with no hitch.
I might just pull it and check it again to make sure.  I'm going to get some clay tonight and check valve to piston clearance.  See where that is...

You didn't say that 8 or 9 would go..  ;D
I used carb springs to check out the valve train dynamics on the Aero engine. (with a little help from my friends on WG)  ;D
page 8 of the Aero engine rehab thread..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zps601cca15.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 11:31:31 AM
From a valve spring manufacturer:
Quote
** PLEASE NOTE: Some valve springs are progressive type springs. Progressive springs
do have more coils on one end than the other end to give the springs a specific character.
For these progressive type springs it is very important to fit these correctly to prevent
problems. The end with most coils, the heaviest end, should always be at the bottom.
Some valve spring do have color codes on them, the color codes are always marking the
top end of the spring and should always be fitted on the top side.
 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2015, 11:39:01 AM
Ah, that aero engine install was a work of art.  Anxiously awaiting riding weather...for a first ride report!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 12:00:26 PM
Ah, that aero engine install was a work of art.  Anxiously awaiting riding weather...for a first ride report!!


Thanks, but not really.  ;D There are many guys here doing more complicated stuff. What you are doing isn't exactly a walk in the park to get working well..  ;-T
* I have the first ride jones pretty bad.*  ;D The sun is out today, and I was seriously thinking about hooking up the old wires and caps to the new Dyna installation, and going for the first ride. Looked at the thermometer, and it said 25.  ::) Never mind.  I busted my a$$ on a patch of unexpected ice one time many years ago. I'll be patient.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 10, 2015, 01:05:18 PM
Interesting read about the springs. I've got performance dual springs and Ti keepers on my "super" Lario. It's got a modified mild performance cam on it. No valve float.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2015, 01:06:37 PM
Yeah, the first ride has to be at least above freezing temps!  Lol
I am thinking I have the fueling squared away on my project, we will see...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
Interesting read about the springs. I've got performance dual springs and Ti keepers on my "super" Lario. It's got a modified mild performance cam on it. No valve float.

What is your top RPM?  I am limited to around 6500 or so by the rev limiter on the ECU.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 10, 2015, 02:00:23 PM
It's about a grand higher give a tad more. You're just getting in the "Happy zone" at 6500. Hmmm...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2015, 02:55:07 PM
It's about a grand higher give a tad more. You're just getting in the "Happy zone" at 6500. Hmmm...

Yes, I am considering going to a "My Ecu" from Australia.  I have done quite a bit of reading on it.  Either that or bump up the rev limiter on the current ECU.  I have the PC V with auto tune.  It works well.  I can set my target air fuel ratios with a laptop.  So far that is the one thing that makes this swap feasible, from an engine control standpoint.  It will be interesting to see what the rear wheel horsepower is, once everything is dialed in.  I'm thinking about doing a long break in ride, like out to Malibu, Ca. from Oklahoma, this June.  Go see Todd.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 03:06:54 PM
Quote
bump up the rev limiter on the current ECU.

I *assume* you can do that with Guzzidiag.. I know nothing about the small block FI. As Kevin says, 5.5 K and above is where it likes to run. Ace Malott (sp?) told me one time that he was pretty sure that many people dropped valves just from over revving them. Fortunately, with FI, that shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: pauldaytona on February 10, 2015, 04:28:03 PM
max rpm on latest v7 is 7800, can be set to anything with guzzidiag. No need for a complete different ecu
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 05:33:20 PM
max rpm on latest v7 is 7800, can be set to anything with guzzidiag. No need for a complete different ecu

 ;-T Thanks, Paul..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 10, 2015, 09:42:30 PM
Yes, I am considering going to a "My Ecu" from Australia.  I have done quite a bit of reading on it.  Either that or bump up the rev limiter on the current ECU.  I have the PC V with auto tune.  It works well.  I can set my target air fuel ratios with a laptop.  So far that is the one thing that makes this swap feasible, from an engine control standpoint.  It will be interesting to see what the rear wheel horsepower is, once everything is dialed in.  I'm thinking about doing a long break in ride, like out to Malibu, Ca. from Oklahoma, this June.  Go see Todd.

RWHP may not greatly change but the character of the bike should be much different with the pull up top I suspect. It's new ground with ECU so this is all very interesting.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 10, 2015, 10:56:37 PM
Well, I went by Radio Shack today and got some thermal compound. I put some on the CHT probe and installed it in the cylinder, then put the cylinder on the engine.  I figure the compund will help with heat transfer to the probe.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/98C209C7-2C40-4A4D-8CA6-C8957929AB6B_zpskmdrvkoa.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/98C209C7-2C40-4A4D-8CA6-C8957929AB6B_zpskmdrvkoa.jpg.html)

Plugged in and ready for the head...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/3B1ABD2F-99F8-4FF9-93FD-11B1E14EA9D6_zpskehpimt0.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/3B1ABD2F-99F8-4FF9-93FD-11B1E14EA9D6_zpskehpimt0.jpg.html)

I wanted to check the valve to piston clearance, so I took some modeling clay and put it on the piston.  I coated the clay with a little oil to keep it from sticking to the valves.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/333ECC46-745F-4C5E-8389-194D7B452B73_zpsbw8k0yhb.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/333ECC46-745F-4C5E-8389-194D7B452B73_zpsbw8k0yhb.jpg.html)

I installed the head and head gasket, pushrods, lash caps and rockers.  I snugged the head down a little bit, no need to go real tight. I set the valve clearances, and turned the engine through by hand a few times.  Wound up with some nice valve marks in the clay.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/7107F497-4726-4626-9C9E-5AC9A08FFC78_zps3qlhu1zz.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/7107F497-4726-4626-9C9E-5AC9A08FFC78_zps3qlhu1zz.jpg.html)

Cut the clay with a razor and got a nice cross section of the valve to piston distance.

 (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/0003C24F-6038-42DA-AE2F-DC1726222FBA_zpse0k6zebj.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/0003C24F-6038-42DA-AE2F-DC1726222FBA_zpse0k6zebj.jpg.html)

Took a loose measurement, just to have a number...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/24AE94DA-1EAC-4CCF-BB76-99F1E891BB8A_zpsl0xx2tug.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/24AE94DA-1EAC-4CCF-BB76-99F1E891BB8A_zpsl0xx2tug.jpg.html)

Looks good!

I then disassembled, got the clay out, and installed the head for the final time. However....I noticed the the pushrod clearance to the cylinder is very tight, almost non existent.  I really feel like I need to take the cylinder back off and grind out about .010" to give the pushrods more room.  Probably have to disassemble the other side too.  Decided to call it a night and think on it some.   Here's a blurry picture of the issue I'm seeing.
Not sure if this is normal, or if the newer cylinders are different castings from the older ones....

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/4DAFB0B0-02CC-43BE-9679-60E6D992E41A_zps8yxyivej.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/4DAFB0B0-02CC-43BE-9679-60E6D992E41A_zps8yxyivej.jpg.html)

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 11, 2015, 12:13:51 AM
;-T Thanks, Paul..

Many thanks for that!  I look forward to playing with the writer, I'll start with my spare ECU and use it for test runs!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2015, 05:40:33 AM
One step forward, two steps back. That's about normal when you are experimenting. Certainly, it'll need some clearance, Clarence.  ;D <running and ducking> It'll make it's own in short order if there isn't enough.  :o
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 11, 2015, 08:15:30 AM
Roger, Roger!
LOL!  Well, the cylinder castings are a little different.  The one thing I noticed is that my cylinders do not have a head alignment dowel.  The head gasket has a larger hole for one, but the V7C parts book doesn't call for one, and there is no cutout for one in the cylinder.  At some point Luigi changed things a little.
Anyhow, I painted the pushrods with blue dykem layout dye this morning.  Figure I will re install them tonight, spin the engine through, and see if the pushrods are rubbing the cylinder.
Stay tuned....same Bat time...same Bat channel!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2015, 08:35:24 AM
Good idea. I didn't know if you knew about Dykem or not, so I didn't mention it. I wouldn't be afraid to go in there with a burr and a die grinder, though..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 11, 2015, 11:32:40 PM
Another busy night. First thing I did, coated the pushrods with Dykem and installed them. Turned the engine through a few times...pulled the pushrods, I could not find any scratches or contact marks on them!  Whooo Hooo!!!  I really did not want to start grinding on the cylinder!  A pic of the rods after i pulled them out:

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/D60ED7A0-9559-4D54-BD7B-D8553FFC7516_zpsngo5mapr.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/D60ED7A0-9559-4D54-BD7B-D8553FFC7516_zpsngo5mapr.jpg.html)

I assembled the right head to the cylinder, torqued all the bolts to 250 in/lbs, then torqued the big bolts to 370 in/lbs.  I decided to start putting on the intake manifolds, curious to see if the throttle bodies would line up ok, but ran into an interference issue between the right intake manifold and the head.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/6BE92725-4A2F-44A6-98C0-0195A55EE851_zpst6xayl2e.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/6BE92725-4A2F-44A6-98C0-0195A55EE851_zpst6xayl2e.jpg.html)

I have been trying to be diligent about keeping the assembly area clean, and not cutting, drilling or grinding in the same room.  However, I decided to grind off the intake and cylinder fin that was interfering, while leaving those items installed on the bike.  I did not want to take the head back off again!!

Rounded off the fin and notched the intake:

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/04B703B8-2783-4EFF-8107-7B7635B4AAF1_zps6ltxc5wh.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/04B703B8-2783-4EFF-8107-7B7635B4AAF1_zps6ltxc5wh.jpg.html)

It fits good now!

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/B2D9BD08-69BE-458F-B325-05EC1616321A_zpssrk1lmi3.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/B2D9BD08-69BE-458F-B325-05EC1616321A_zpssrk1lmi3.jpg.html)

I decided to loosely fit the throttle bodies to see if they were going to line up and work.  Here is the left side, with the right side tacked in place:

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/D71EEAC5-8517-4F82-88CB-D90F003133CA_zpswazdaheq.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-02/D71EEAC5-8517-4F82-88CB-D90F003133CA_zpswazdaheq.jpg.html)

Looks like it will work!  On that note I called it a night!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 12, 2015, 12:45:40 AM
Just remembered to mention, I cc'd the Imola heads before I installed them.  After milling they were at 20 cc's.
Stock Lario heads are 22 cc's. The Lario heads would give me 9.5:1 compression ratio. The Imola II heads I am using will result in a 9.7:1 compression ratio.  Stock V7C is 9.6:1
To figure the CR, I measured Bore and stroke, piston travel, deck clearance, head gasket thickness, and head capacity in cc's.
An interesting note.  Cometic industries makes custom thickness head gaskets.  I calculated that every .010 inch difference in head gasket thickness results in a compression ratio change of .272:1.
I could almost get 10:1 CR with a head gasket that is .040" thick.  Stock head gasket is .050.
Hmmmm....
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 06:06:36 AM
Quote
Cometic industries

Thanks for that. You're getting closer.. ;D  :pop
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 12, 2015, 12:37:08 PM
A quick question, for those in the know.  I am planning on using the C8HSA spark plugs, with an NGK LB05F-R plug cap.  This should give me 5K ohms resistance in the circuit.  The original plugs for the V7C are a BR8ES, a resistor type plug.  Does anyone have any input on my plan to use a resistor cap and non-resistor plugs?  Planning on using the stock Guzzi wires and Magnetic Marelli coils.
Also, a quick correction.  My rev limiter is factory stock at 7600 rpm.  I think that will work for me at first, at least keep from over-revving the engine.  I don't want to grenade it right off the bat...hopefully, with the components used, I will have covered all of the reliability issues with the 4 valve drivetrain.  Guess we will see in 50,000 miles....lol
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 01:57:38 PM
Quote
Guess we will see in 50,000 miles....lol
Absolutely. Really, no one knows what it's going to take. *I don't know* but I'd bet that your ignition stuff will be ok. I have a vague recollection (like most of them, now)  ;D of that being covered in a post a couple of years ago. You might crank up the search engine and have a look..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 12, 2015, 03:18:14 PM
You will be fine with reliability. Cheap parts are this mills worst nightmare.  :'(
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 12, 2015, 10:02:43 PM
A quick question, for those in the know.  I am planning on using the C8HSA spark plugs, with an NGK LB05F-R plug cap.  This should give me 5K ohms resistance in the circuit.  The original plugs for the V7C are a BR8ES, a resistor type plug.  Does anyone have any input on my plan to use a resistor cap and non-resistor plugs?  Planning on using the stock Guzzi wires and Magnetic Marelli coils.
Also, a quick correction.  My rev limiter is factory stock at 7600 rpm.  I think that will work for me at first, at least keep from over-revving the engine.  I don't want to grenade it right off the bat...hopefully, with the components used, I will have covered all of the reliability issues with the 4 valve drivetrain.  Guess we will see in 50,000 miles....lol

Plugs/caps OK IMHO - I use the same setup. Rev limit @ 7600rpm is fine. The progressive Nevada springs start losing it's control at 7800rpm although I have hit 9000rpm by missing a gear - no nicked piston, but still  - don't do it  ;D

Ciao
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Morizzi on February 12, 2015, 10:28:12 PM
Plugs/caps OK IMHO - I use the same setup.

Yep it doesn't matter where you have the resistor in the HT circuit. In the plug or in the cap, whatever. Resistor caps and standard plugs have been in Guzzis for years. Some use up to 10k but 5k seems fine. Its what I normally use unless I want more spark, then I cheat.  :BEER:
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 13, 2015, 12:40:15 AM
Plugs/caps OK IMHO - I use the same setup. Rev limit @ 7600rpm is fine. The progressive Nevada springs start losing it's control at 7800rpm although I have hit 9000rpm by missing a gear - no nicked piston, but still  - don't do it  ;D

Ciao

Thanks for that information Brian!  I will leave the rev limiter alone..LOL!!  The only reason I am interested in the spark plug circuit, is because I don't want electromagnetic interference to effect the ECU. I think it will be OK too..guess we will find out!
Cheers!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 13, 2015, 12:44:12 AM
Yep it doesn't matter where you have the resistor in the HT circuit. In the plug or in the cap, whatever. Resistor caps and standard plugs have been in Guzzis for years. Some use up to 10k but 5k seems fine. Its what I normally use unless I want more spark, then I cheat.  :BEER:

Ah OK, thanks for that info.  I know now that the V7C stock setup uses 5K ohm resistor caps, and BR8ES resistor plugs.  The only thing I am changing in the circuit, is that I am not using resistor plugs. 
Cheers!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 13, 2015, 12:57:24 AM
Well, I spent a lot of time tonight, got a few things done.  First thing I removed the stock plug caps from the wires.  They just unscrew easily.  I then screwed on the new NGK plug caps, which are the same 5K ohm resistance as the V7C stock caps.

The stock cap, looks kind of bad...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg2_zpsc3tsisuf.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg2_zpsc3tsisuf.jpg.html)

New cap..

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg3_zps92eoqukj.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg3_zps92eoqukj.jpg.html)

I torqued the intake manifolds on, and put the throttle bodies on, they fit well.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg4_zpspnhmocmt.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg4_zpspnhmocmt.jpg.html)

After that I got side tracked trying to route the wiring harness around under the tank.  It is a real mess of wires. The plan tomorrow is to first of all clean the shop...as I had to grind off the cylinder head fins so the intakes would fit on both sides.  Then finish up the intake installation, and install the exhaust..

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 13, 2015, 08:09:03 AM
Man, you are getting close to start-up! I like those plug caps a lot. Classy things they are. You'll have to post a pic with them on. Are you retired?  You must be putting in 5-6 hour days. Great job! ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 13, 2015, 12:13:34 PM
Man, you are getting close to start-up! I like those plug caps a lot. Classy things they are. You'll have to post a pic with them on. Are you retired?  You must be putting in 5-6 hour days. Great job! ;-T

I wish I was retired!  Lol.  I usually get time to work on the bike from 7:00pm to midnight.  Tomorrow I will have all day though.  If my cam chain tensioner comes in, I will be ready to run by tomorrow afternoon.  I hope it gets here!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 13, 2015, 12:17:36 PM
I wish I was retired!  Lol.  I usually get time to work on the bike from 7:00pm to midnight.  Tomorrow I will have all day though.  If my cam chain tensioner comes in, I will be ready to run by tomorrow afternoon.  I hope it gets here!

Oh my, tomorrow maybe!!  Did you hire Chuck's camera crew?  We need to witness this thing.  :drool
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 13, 2015, 01:33:24 PM
I wish I was retired!  Lol.  I usually get time to work on the bike from 7:00pm to midnight.  Tomorrow I will have all day though.  If my cam chain tensioner comes in, I will be ready to run by tomorrow afternoon.  I hope it gets here!

 :pop :pop  :bike
The first start of an engine is always exciting, especially when it is something *different.*
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 14, 2015, 12:00:56 AM
well, the timing chain tensioner did not show up today.  I might get it tomorrow.  That is all that I need to finish this up and start the bike.  I couldn't get photos to load tonight, I will try again in the morning.
Getting close to running it!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 14, 2015, 05:43:12 AM
You've got us on seats edge!  Hoping tensioner comes soon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re:
Post by: Unkept on February 14, 2015, 07:49:53 AM
I actually had a dream about your V7 4v! I guess I'm looking forward to startup too. :D
Title: Re:
Post by: mwrenn on February 14, 2015, 10:06:06 AM
I actually had a dream about your V7 4v! I guess I'm looking forward to startup too. :D

I hope it didn't blow up in the dream! LOL
Got some photos to upload finally.  Last night I finished installing the intake system.  I installed the bolts in the cam gear and torqued them.  Put on the tone wheel.  The rest of the evening I spent scraping gaskets, the timing cover gasket was stuck pretty good.

This is a pic of the airbox I made, in order to have a still air intake.  It did make the bike run better. I had pods on just right off of the throttle bodies, but they made the bike hesitate momentarily when I would open the throttle rapidly.  The airbox fixed that problem.  I noticed that the original rubber boots from the factory airbox were shaped like a velocity stack inside, so I used them with some scat hose to attach to my airbox.  The K&N filtration seems to work well.  I open up the intake and there is no dirt inside.  I live down a three mile dirt road, so I figure if the filtration really sucked, I would be able to tell.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/29157189-85CC-4572-881B-00440E646227_zpskutn2uge.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/29157189-85CC-4572-881B-00440E646227_zpskutn2uge.jpg.html)

Here is the other side.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/03AB31CE-F07C-48B7-A801-88B30754E290_zpszztkxfx7.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/03AB31CE-F07C-48B7-A801-88B30754E290_zpszztkxfx7.jpg.html)

Scat hose on the intake boots.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/B1D321BF-4E71-4A89-9AD3-9FC715A726C7_zpssgwsg6wu.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/B1D321BF-4E71-4A89-9AD3-9FC715A726C7_zpssgwsg6wu.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/88216EC1-0038-4C68-8FA4-DE4D92064B75_zps6db7bgjx.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/88216EC1-0038-4C68-8FA4-DE4D92064B75_zps6db7bgjx.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/B57A7707-1C6A-4B37-9E46-2FFDF6D0860B_zpse12yrv6t.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/B57A7707-1C6A-4B37-9E46-2FFDF6D0860B_zpse12yrv6t.jpg.html)

Cam gear bolts with Locktite 243. This is what the factory shop manual calls out to use on these fasteners.  Torque is 220 in/lbs.

 (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/BD6D401A-A2CF-4B35-8220-93E322C16AE9_zpsf6us3uqt.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/BD6D401A-A2CF-4B35-8220-93E322C16AE9_zpsf6us3uqt.jpg.html)

Cam gear is done...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/7BA37092-B621-48F5-95A5-0E83B3F23F80_zpspr1dmdcw.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/7BA37092-B621-48F5-95A5-0E83B3F23F80_zpspr1dmdcw.jpg.html)

And all the old gasket is scraped off.  To clean the timing cover after I got it full of old gasket and grit, I put it in the sink with Dawn soap and hot water, scrubbed it out good.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/F0F57684-E0E7-4FD0-810A-4877486CE3AF_zpsnunsoy2k.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/F0F57684-E0E7-4FD0-810A-4877486CE3AF_zpsnunsoy2k.jpg.html)

Now if the tensioner would arrive!!  It was supposed to deliver between this Friday and Monday.  I got it from TLM in The Netherlands. 
I am going to go install the exhaust, and clean up the bike some.  It will be nice to work on it in the daylight...LOL
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 14, 2015, 01:27:14 PM
A little thinking outside the box.  Nice.  ;-T  Of course, this whole project has been such an exercise.  Seems like you do a good job of thinking it all through and getting it right.  I like the solid mounts for the intakes you made up and the feed lines.
Here's to hoping the package arrives today.  :BEER:
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 14, 2015, 10:24:20 PM
A little thinking outside the box.  Nice.  ;-T  Of course, this whole project has been such an exercise.  Seems like you do a good job of thinking it all through and getting it right.  I like the solid mounts for the intakes you made up and the feed lines.
Here's to hoping the package arrives today.  :BEER:

Shoot, no package today!  If I had been more careful and not screwed up the tensioner, I could have run it today.
Ah well, live and learn!
I went to install the exhaust today on the right side, and I found that the exhaust port on the 4 valve head is .021" deeper than the 2 valve head.  This means that the exhaust pipe will not tighten down on the exhaust gasket, as the pipe flange bottoms out before it gets tight.  Fortunately I had extra gaskets and was able to stack two of them.  I figure I will have to get the dimensions of the Lario exhaust sleeves, and order some.  The stacked gaskets should be ok for now.  Another note, the exhaust gaskets that the parts book calls out for the Lario are the same number as the the ones for the two valve head.  They are quite a bit smaller on the inside dimension than the exhaust port and pipe.  I was able to get some copper gaskets from TLM that were the right size. 

Here are some pics:
The two valve head port depth...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/68A97731-9048-42BF-BD0A-FC09081303CA_zpsxfzdh8w0.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/68A97731-9048-42BF-BD0A-FC09081303CA_zpsxfzdh8w0.jpg.html)

Four valve head port depth:

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/10606FC5-D436-45E0-9112-7A34D6B873A9_zpsulobutwe.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/10606FC5-D436-45E0-9112-7A34D6B873A9_zpsulobutwe.jpg.html)

Gaskets as I had to install them:

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/4A99A781-A53E-4E68-B5B8-A8D5F5037ADA_zps6fzmb9g2.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/4A99A781-A53E-4E68-B5B8-A8D5F5037ADA_zps6fzmb9g2.jpg.html)

Exhaust pipe sleeves...I need some that are .020 longer...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/860CAF05-E9AC-4AAB-A5CA-2EE360297229_zpspewxdq1p.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/860CAF05-E9AC-4AAB-A5CA-2EE360297229_zpspewxdq1p.jpg.html)

Got the pipe on.  New studs were torqued to 90 in/lbs.  I torqued the exhaust nuts to 100 in/lbs, just to make sure they were tight on the stacked gaskets.  I drilled and safetied the nuts.  I have had them work loose and come off before, so I always safety them now...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/C0715A16-5B7A-482D-AE68-BA717E92E611_zpsekys9g1b.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/C0715A16-5B7A-482D-AE68-BA717E92E611_zpsekys9g1b.jpg.html)

Looking good...

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/F61DE732-EB94-402D-A98D-936BB9869945_zpsywjy2zxl.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/F61DE732-EB94-402D-A98D-936BB9869945_zpsywjy2zxl.jpg.html)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Moto Fugazzi on February 14, 2015, 11:21:44 PM
Very cool!
What side covers on your bike?
Ken
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Penderic on February 15, 2015, 01:58:58 AM
 :pop

 ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 15, 2015, 05:46:23 AM
Yep, looks the business all right. Nice job of safety wiring.. ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 15, 2015, 07:55:51 AM
Very cool!
What side covers on your bike?
Ken

Thanks!  The side covers are from an 850t3 I think.  I mount them to the airbox.  I am taking off the S3 placards and putting a 750S decal on there.....eventuall y..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 15, 2015, 08:04:36 AM
Yep, looks the business all right. Nice job of safety wiring.. ;-T

Thanks Chuck!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 15, 2015, 11:51:24 PM
Did all I could on the bike today.  Now it's just waiting on a timing chain tensioner.  Tonight I installed the left side exhaust system, and put in a home made crankcase breather.  I based it on a suggestion from Guzziology.  Basically I took the two breather tubes coming from the valve covers and connected them at a tee fitting.  The hose coming out of the tee fitting I just made a loop in it, then attached a breather filter on the end of it.  The loop is supposed to keep too much oil from getting all the way to the breather.  It will be interesting to see how it works.
On another note, I found a spark plug I am more comfortable with using.  It is an NGK CR8HIX.  The same heat range as the C8HSA, but with a resistor in it.  I figure the two valve engine was running with resistor caps and plugs, I should get as close to that setup as I can.
Well, tomorrow is a holiday, so I probably will not get the tensioner until Tuesday at the earliest.  Just gotta be patient I guess.  I can't wait to fire that bike up....!!!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on February 16, 2015, 12:34:25 AM
Looking good, this and Chuck's are proper projects, parked together they'd completely confuse the train spotters.

But without being contrite
Lockwiring ex nuts now is premature, like head gaskets, copper or multi layered ex gaskets will compress with heat cycle and should be retorqued after running (but cold)

That's why you've seen loose ones, not unusual just never serviced since assembly

They won't need wiring then but can't hurt, if left as is, gasket could leak after a while or even crack header.

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 16, 2015, 06:44:58 AM
Good point, but it'll only take a minute to tighten up up and re safety after a few heat cycles. <shrug>
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 16, 2015, 07:55:00 AM
Looking good, this and Chuck's are proper projects, parked together they'd completely confuse the train spotters.

But without being contrite
Lockwiring ex nuts now is premature, like head gaskets, copper or multi layered ex gaskets will compress with heat cycle and should be retorqued after running (but cold)

That's why you've seen loose ones, not unusual just never serviced since assembly

They won't need wiring then but can't hurt, if left as is, gasket could leak after a while or even crack header.

Ah ok, thanks for that.  It's a good point that they will need re torquing eventually.  I hadn't thought of that.



Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 16, 2015, 02:17:33 PM
Here's to hoping that package shows tomorrow!🍻


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: fred garvin on February 16, 2015, 07:05:57 PM
Nice choice on the Ago's. Looking forward to seeing and hearing your project run.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 16, 2015, 08:31:22 PM
Here's to hoping that package shows tomorrow!🍻


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Yes!!  I will be watching for the mail for sure!!  The tensioner I got was a used one from TLM.  I also ordered a new one from Harpers, but it is going to be a couple of weeks for them to get it from Italy.  The used one was supposed to be five days...not too bad...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 17, 2015, 05:39:04 AM
Yes!!  I will be watching for the mail for sure!!  The tensioner I got was a used one from TLM.  I also ordered a new one from Harpers, but it is going to be a couple of weeks for them to get it from Italy.  The used one was supposed to be five days...not too bad...

I'd send you the one out of the Lario, but it would probably take 5 days to get there.. didn't realize that small block parts were so scarce. I guess there is no need for replacement tensioners, though.. they'll run forever. I'll betcha Eish's would have one, though.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 17, 2015, 07:32:15 AM
I'd send you the one out of the Lario, but it would probably take 5 days to get there.. didn't realize that small block parts were so scarce. I guess there is no need for replacement tensioners, though.. they'll run forever. I'll betcha Eish's would have one, though.

That's a good point!  I'll give Joe a call today...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 17, 2015, 10:50:54 AM
That's a good point!  I'll give Joe a call today...

Or, maybe check with Ed Milich @ Guzzipower? Bet he has one laying around.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 17, 2015, 12:22:25 PM
The tension(er) is driving all of us crazy.  :'(
We want to know what this bugger will do.  ;-T 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 17, 2015, 01:15:04 PM
Or, maybe check with Ed Milich @ Guzzipower? Bet he has one laying around.

Yes, I'll call him!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 17, 2015, 01:16:24 PM
The tension(er) is driving all of us crazy.  :'(
We want to know what this bugger will do.  ;-T 

Whew Man!!  I know!  I want to hear her fire up!  I will film it...post it up....hope she doesn't blow!!  Lol
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 17, 2015, 06:24:43 PM
Whew Man!!  I know!  I want to hear her fire up!  I will film it...post it up....hope she doesn't blow!!  Lol

Piece of cake.. not to worry..  ;D
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 17, 2015, 06:27:54 PM
Piece of cake.. not to worry..  ;D

Yeah, I know she's gonna run good.  Got with Ed Milich.  I will have a tensioner here tomorrow! 
As long as the Postal service does its job, that bike will be running tomorrow night!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 17, 2015, 07:17:53 PM
Yee Hah!!  Can you ride it or just start it?  Not sure where you live.


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 17, 2015, 08:15:58 PM
Yee Hah!!  Can you ride it or just start it?  Not sure where you live.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh, I'm going to ride it!  Tomorrow in central Oklahoma is clear and 26 degrees.  Think I'll put on my snowmobile suit and go break the ton....just so I know she can represent...LOL
I'll take off work early if I can...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 17, 2015, 08:30:52 PM
You've got to be going stir crazy being within arms reach. It's been a heck of a build and a long time coming. I know the feeling...


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 18, 2015, 01:28:41 PM
No packages today...checked tracking on it...looks like it will be tomorrow...USPS overnight delivery means something different to the postal service than it does to me I guess!!  Sheesh...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 18, 2015, 06:31:13 PM
Drats!  Another day of waiting.  Sorry man.   :pop
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 18, 2015, 07:04:23 PM
Drats!  Another day of waiting.  Sorry man.   :pop

Yeah, I think stuff like that happens for a reason.  Today was in the 20's, tomorrow supposed to be 50's.  A much better day for a test ride!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 18, 2015, 08:10:33 PM
You're going to be about 70 degrees warmer than Michigan tomorrow. I don't feel sorry for you anymore. ;)
I've got the itch big to get on mine.


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 18, 2015, 09:05:51 PM
You're going to be about 70 degrees warmer than Michigan tomorrow. I don't feel sorry for you anymore. ;)
I've got the itch big to get on mine.


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Yeah, I bet the UP is pretty chilly now too!!  Funny, just checked the tracking, the Priority Express mail in the fine print says 1 to 3 days delivery.  It's scheduled for Friday delivery.  I think I'll bust ass at work tomorrow, and take Friday afternoon off.  Man, I am pumped to get that bike started!!
I have been thinking about the next iteration of this build.  I really just wanted to see if the Imola II heads would work with some porting etc...I think I will ride this bike all summer, then next winter put a set of actual Lario heads on it.  Lighten up the valve train with some titanium pushrods and valve keepers.  Also do a big bore kit, get some bigger pistons in there.  Whew man, that would be a runner...lol.  Also use the dual valve springs and get the rpms up around 8500, maybe a cam....anyway.  This stuff goes through my head while I'm waiting on parts...
Cheers!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 18, 2015, 09:33:11 PM
You a lawyer of a doctor??  Just kidding. I understand the disease as I had the works done... except big bore kit. Mine feels nothing like the stock bike... a medium block version is more like it. It's perfect for what my expectations were. All around, the bike exceeded my expectations for its handling and stability. It's remarkable really.
I hope you find this new engine a little more intoxicating as I expect. The 4 valve heads want to keep marching unlike the 2 valves.
Best.


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 18, 2015, 09:47:58 PM
One other thing; I think it's smart you live with it for a season like you said. You will get a better idea of what your wants and needs are. You'll know how much lightening you want to do. It will be interesting with FI to see what affect that has. The gearing on the V7's is nice that it's geared lower than the Lario and that, I feel, is a good help for things. More like the V65 gearing I now have. I think you're set for a good time.


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 18, 2015, 10:11:18 PM
One other thing; I think it's smart you live with it for a season like you said. You will get a better idea of what your wants and needs are. You'll know how much lightening you want to do. It will be interesting with FI to see what affect that has. The gearing on the V7's is nice that it's geared lower than the Lario and that, I feel, is a good help for things. More like the V65 gearing I now have. I think you're set for a good time.


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Is it the rear differential that's lower geared? If so, I changed that a while back! LOL  I think I put in an 8/31 set of gears in the rear drive.  I did it so that when I was accelerating I had a couple of seconds more in first gear before having to shift.  It worked really well.  The bike is also happier at highway speeds now.  Before the change it seemed like I was always wrapped up, or lugging it down on the highway.  No it hits the sweet spot, about 5000 rpm, right around the speed limit.  Hmmm...I need to dig into Guzziology and compare some gear ratios. Day after tomorrow man....!!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 19, 2015, 07:37:13 AM
Sounds like you're going to be just fine. Ed changed put the primary gear from the larios to the V65's. There's about an 8% difference in lower gearing. Easier to keep the revs up now.


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 19, 2015, 10:51:52 AM
Whew Man!!  I know!  I want to hear her fire up!  I will film it...post it up....hope she doesn't blow!!  Lol

The *only* thing I'd be concerned about is the brake cylinder hone job..  ;D I'd have gone to a machine shop and done it on a Sunnen hone. That said, it Shirley won't fail immediately.  :o ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 19, 2015, 05:53:30 PM
The *only* thing I'd be concerned about is the brake cylinder hone job..  ;D I'd have gone to a machine shop and done it on a Sunnen hone. That said, it Shirley won't fail immediately.  :o ;D :BEER:
Stop calling me Shirley!  LOL
Yes, I got it to go from a 2lb hammer interference fit to a rubber mallet interference fit.  If that makes sense LOL.
I'm not sure why Guzzi chose an interference fit on the Pistons for these bikes.  I suppose it's to make sure the wrist pin stays in the same orientation relative to the piston, and the rotation and wear occurs in the rod end bushing?  It went together plenty tight, that's for sure...:)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: John A on February 19, 2015, 07:00:59 PM
I heat the piston, push fit. She'll prolly run for a while anyway ;D
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 19, 2015, 07:14:59 PM
I heat the piston, push fit. She'll prolly run for a while anyway ;D

Yes, I tried heating it, wrist pins in the freezer...man, it was tight!  LOL. I had the wrist pins made by Precision out in North Carolina.  They were right at .0005 inch bigger in diameter than the factory ones....heating usually works great, they were just tight though..lol
Cheers!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: John A on February 19, 2015, 07:25:55 PM
Well good to be tight. I'm waiting for the light off and I want to thank you for posting! :pop
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 19, 2015, 10:01:39 PM
Well good to be tight. I'm waiting for the light off and I want to thank you for posting! :pop

Hopefully tomorrow!! Thanks for checking out the build! lol
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 20, 2015, 06:22:12 PM
Still no parts.  Overnight shipped from California on Tuesday.  Was a guaranteed delivery by today at 3:00 pm.
It did not deliver.  Maybe tomorrow....sheesh!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Muzz on February 20, 2015, 06:45:18 PM
More  :pop :pop :pop :pop ;D

Hope it happens soon,  enquiring minds are on edge.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 20, 2015, 06:51:35 PM
Still no parts.  Overnight shipped from California on Tuesday.  Was a guaranteed delivery by today at 3:00 pm.
It did not deliver.  Maybe tomorrow....sheesh!!

Any inclement weather between where you are (?) and California? That would definitely slow things down...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 20, 2015, 08:17:13 PM
Any inclement weather between where you are (?) and California? That would definitely slow things down...

No, no weather.  Ed got the tensioner sent out about 15 minutes after I contacted him.  He used USPS Priority Express Overnight.  When it didn't arrive today I went by the Post Office, they said it was still in transit, last location was Oklahoma City.  The lady there said they would refund my money for the shipping, I would rather have the part!!  LOL  Anyway, I'm done making predictions based on delivery estimates by the Post Office!  Hoping to get it in the morning.  We will see...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 20, 2015, 09:13:26 PM
Super bummer. Well, let's hope tomorrow is D-day.


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 05:10:50 PM
Whoo Hoo!!!  That sums it up!!  Got the replacement tensioner in today.  A quick note,  when disaasembling the front end of a small block Guzzi engine, DO NOT try to move the tensioner plastic out of the way with your thumb.  Just unbolt it and remove it.  Things are a lot better that way.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/B5468B0B-18B8-4208-8AC8-48F0B243CB50_zps3b5e8ykn.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/B5468B0B-18B8-4208-8AC8-48F0B243CB50_zps3b5e8ykn.jpg.html)

I installed the tensioner, installed the cover, and torqued on the alternator rotor.  Had to use an oil filter strap wrench to hold the rotor while torquing the nut.  It goes to 360 in/lbs, with locktite 243.

 (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/FA7E1C66-551D-463C-A059-5281E3596FFA_zpskbk45w2n.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/FA7E1C66-551D-463C-A059-5281E3596FFA_zpskbk45w2n.jpg.html)

Got it all assembled. Pulled the spark plugs and cranked the engine until the oil pressure light went out.
With a huge thank you to Todd Eagan at GuzziTech, Ed Milich at GuzziPower, and to everyone on this board for their advice and support....I fired her up!!


(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/th_FAF31A00-D7ED-4051-9D93-2C6CE1238513_zpsczejleef.mp4) (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/FAF31A00-D7ED-4051-9D93-2C6CE1238513_zpsczejleef.mp4)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Aaron D. on February 21, 2015, 05:16:28 PM
Awesome, congratulations!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Aaron D. on February 21, 2015, 05:18:19 PM
OK, now that I have first tracks-

This is right up with Chuck's incredible machine. In many ways this may have been more useful, not many drone mills running around, and I'm going to send this vid to my friend with a V7R, along with a dare..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 05:19:38 PM
Awesome, congratulations!

Thanks man!  It was a rush!  I went and rode it...stay tuned... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Frulk on February 21, 2015, 05:20:59 PM
Ride impression?    :food
Title: Re:
Post by: Unkept on February 21, 2015, 05:21:45 PM
Yay!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 05:35:54 PM
First ride report...it's a different bike..the only words I can use to describe it..The acceleration, rolling on power, is effortless now.  Its just comes on and keeps winding up.  I went out and broke the ton with her this afternoon.

Funny, at the end of the vid, I couldn't get 5th gear.  I backed off and caught it.  4th gear was holding against the rev limiter, 100 mph and 7600 rpm.  When I caught 5th, it was going through 110 and plenty of room left.  Had to back off for traffic ahead of me.  That was plenty for me, I know she can represent now...and not come apart!  LOL  I will have to compose my impressions in a more detailed manner and post them.  Right now I am extremely pleased with the conversion.  It was well worth it.  Next on the agenda is to see about longevity.  I really don't think I will have any problem putting a lot of miles on and having her be reliable.  We will see.

For your perusal and enjoyment:

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/th_63FE7CF9-03C9-4361-814B-739BFEE7DAE6_zpszyemq4yh.mp4) (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/63FE7CF9-03C9-4361-814B-739BFEE7DAE6_zpszyemq4yh.mp4)

Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 05:41:18 PM
OK, now that I have first tracks-

This is right up with Chuck's incredible machine. In many ways this may have been more useful, not many drone mills running around, and I'm going to send this vid to my friend with a V7R, along with a dare..

Oh man..that just ain't right..LOL 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Aaron D. on February 21, 2015, 05:46:35 PM
Gee, you don't mess around with panty waisted break in procedures, do you!

Sending this too, I may have peed a little.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 05:51:57 PM
Gee, you don't mess around with panty waisted break in procedures, do you!

Sending this too, I may have peed a little.

LMAO.  I am pumped!  The bike was a blast to ride before.  Now its just...exponential. ..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 21, 2015, 06:00:47 PM
Attaboy!  ;-T Congrats. Now you see why people have been talking up the Lario for a long time. There *is* that one little longevity problem, though.  ;D
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Moto Fugazzi on February 21, 2015, 06:16:59 PM
Whoo Hoo!!!  That sums it up!!  Got the replacement tensioner in today.  A quick note,  when disaasembling the front end of a small block Guzzi engine, DO NOT try to move the tensioner plastic out of the way with your thumb.  Just unbolt it and remove it.  Things are a lot better that way.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/B5468B0B-18B8-4208-8AC8-48F0B243CB50_zps3b5e8ykn.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/B5468B0B-18B8-4208-8AC8-48F0B243CB50_zps3b5e8ykn.jpg.html)


I hope that red stuff isn't blood.

I have to say, what you did was very impressive!
Ken
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 06:24:12 PM
Attaboy!  ;-T Congrats. Now you see why people have been talking up the Lario for a long time. There *is* that one little longevity problem, though.  ;D

Yes, just that one itty bitty little problem...LOL   I hope that the longevity problem is solved!  Hmmm....maybe should have got me some grenade valve stem caps!  LOL
All kidding aside, after today's ride, the four valve small blocks, yeah, I totally get it now!!!

Hopefully all of the known issues with the four valve small block drive train have been addressed..  I tried to be systematic about it.  Cam and lifter wear were handled with DLC coatings and progressive valve springs.  Valve longevity should be ok with the stainless valves.  Use of bronze guides and seats should improve heat transfer.
I am going to just ride the heck out of this bike for a while, keep note of problems that might crop up.  I am really pleased with the way it pulls when I open the throttle.  Reminds me of my KZ900 Z1 I had about 20 years ago.  It just goes.  I have to qualify the difference between the two and four valve as quite dramatic. Very noticeable.

Thanks for all of your input!!

 




 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 06:30:37 PM
I hope that red stuff isn't blood.

I have to say, what you did was very impressive!
Ken

Thanks Ken!  Gotta love Guzzi red tank paint...just about blood color...lol
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 21, 2015, 07:13:03 PM
Quote
I have to qualify the difference between the two and four valve as quite dramatic. Very noticeable.

Absolutely. The 4 valve engines breathe much better as revs build.

I talked to my friend that builds race engines about your piston hone job using a brake cylinder hone today. He thinks you'll be ok, although a Sunnen hone job would have been better..and he knows his stuff.
Yes, you have addressed the reliability issues as we know them. Your job, should you wish to accept it, is to run the piss out of it for 50K miles.  ;D
Nice job.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: pressureangle on February 21, 2015, 09:05:12 PM
a totally bad-ass build. I hope mine turns out as nice. Going to a dyno at all?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Tazturtle on February 21, 2015, 09:51:11 PM
Awesome! Great work. Sounds sweet!

Kurt
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 10:09:42 PM
Absolutely. The 4 valve engines breathe much better as revs build.

I talked to my friend that builds race engines about your piston hone job using a brake cylinder hone today. He thinks you'll be ok, although a Sunnen hone job would have been better..and he knows his stuff.
Yes, you have addressed the reliability issues as we know them. Your job, should you wish to accept it, is to run the piss out of it for 50K miles.  ;D
Nice job.

Thanks, Shirley it will go 50K no problem...:)

I'll take the job!  Lol.

 Yes, I thought about the brake cylinder hone after you mentioned it.  The one problem I could see would be keeping the bore straight with the flexible drive of the hone I used.  I removed such a small amount of material though, I wasn't too concerned about it. Thanks for checking with your friend.  We will see.  As you can probably tell from the video, I will ride it pretty hard.  Not in an abusive manner, but I'm not going to baby her either.  Just ride like I normally do.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 10:13:07 PM
a totally bad-ass build. I hope mine turns out as nice. Going to a dyno at all?

Yes, planning on a Dyno for tuning.  I am really happy how the fueling is working now.  I was not sure the extra flow from the four valves would be handled by the auto tune.  Turns out it was a non issue.  I did not have to adjust a thing.  Thanks for the compliment!  What are you building?
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 10:19:03 PM
Awesome! Great work. Sounds sweet!

Kurt

Thanks Man!  It really does sound good in person...just right you know.  I did notice more tappet noise, I am pretty sure that is to be expected.  I am planning on checking the valve clearances tomorrow.  Got about 50 miles on her today.  Today was 60 degrees F, about 15 C, a perfect day.  Tomorrow it's supposed to be highs at 0 degrees C.  Staying that way for two weeks!  Glad I got the ride done today!
Cheers
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 21, 2015, 10:50:01 PM
How does it feel to be a pioneer?  Congrats and that thing sounds great!  I think you're pulling some good ponies out of it by the sounds. Also doesn't sound like you need a 6th gear. ;)
How cool is all of this conversion and I hope folks take note from all this as it's something we should all take in. When someone does stuff like this we should not ignore it. I hope Guzzi is watching.
Not to worry on the valve train as I said before. You added quality bits and that's better than, well... most.
 
Sounds like you gave it a good run-in thrashing. Keep giving us ride reports as I'm certainly curious as hell about a fuel injected (more modern) beast like this.
Great Day!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: pressureangle on February 21, 2015, 10:50:16 PM
Yes, planning on a Dyno for tuning.  I am really happy how the fueling is working now.  I was not sure the extra flow from the four valves would be handled by the auto tune.  Turns out it was a non issue.  I did not have to adjust a thing.  Thanks for the compliment!  What are you building?

LM 1000 with lots of special goodies, but 4 valve heads, hm...

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=74056.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=74056.0)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 21, 2015, 11:09:21 PM
LMAO.  I am pumped!  The bike was a blast to ride before.  Now its just...exponential. ..

This is why I invested into this mill to see what was possible when giving it its due respect. Yee-haaaaaaa
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 11:13:29 PM


Thank you!  It has been a long time in the making.  Yes, I am pretty confident the valve train will not be an issue.  I'm going to be putting the miles on this bike now, establish the reliability.  It was interesting how the gearing and better flowing heads worked.  As you can probably tell from the ride video, the bike wrapped right to 100 mph no problem.  I could not feel any restriction on the intake like I used to.  It was just a smooth winding up in rpm. 
I am not sure why I couldn't get fifth gear, until I backed out of it some.  Need to work on that, mostly rider technique. Lol.
 I do remember that with the two valve heads, 100 mph was about it as far as the top speed.  I could hit it in fourth gear with some effort, but fifth gear it would get to about 6K rpm and that was all she could do.  Just too tall a gear and not enough air going into the combustion chamber.
I am kind of surprised that the fuel tuning worked as well as it did.  I just the air/fuel ratio at 13.2:1 and the auto tune handled it no problem.  That is pretty neat, no messing around with jetting or spark advance, just type some numbers in the computer and go...Lol.
Next step this spring is to tune it on a Dyno.  Then just keep riding it.

Thanks for all of your interest and input! 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 11:30:44 PM
LM 1000 with lots of special goodies, but 4 valve heads, hm...

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=74056.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=74056.0)

That is going to be a hoot to twist the throttle on!  Very interesting insights on cam design. Looks like you have made a lot of progress, she will be running soon:)
I have my reading cut out for me tonight...following some of those links....
Cheers!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 21, 2015, 11:32:07 PM
This is why I invested into this mill to see what was possible when giving it its due respect. Yee-haaaaaaa

Yep, Yeeee..Haaaa!!!  Pretty much say it all!
Cheers.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 22, 2015, 01:04:15 AM
Congrats Mike!!! - I'm so happy your project is a success - like Chuck points out - the next 50k miles will tell the story. The DLC is one feature I still have to try (I have a old shaft with oil ducts I may have Ed fix up for me), allthough my lobes still are holding up, but I haven't done 50k on them either...yet. Happy to welcome a new SB 4V (8V) addict into the "club"  ;-T ;-T ;-T Like Chuck once pointed out - they are more fun than a guy should be allowed to have  :D

Now you have to write up a few more ride repports :BEER:
Hoping to cranck up my silver streak project this next season, but time is an issue with the family growing (grandkids) and traveling our vacations away.

Ciao
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Dogwalker on February 22, 2015, 03:26:04 AM
Great report, thanks!  ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 22, 2015, 09:25:07 AM
Just watched the ride vid; didn't see that last night.  Holy Moses did that thing get up there quick.  Gave it a fist full and never backed off.  Looks like valve float is a non-issue to the limiter and the fueling is very good.  That's a beast!  ;-T

Take away the initial clutch slip and you're up to 60 in no time flat and blowing straight up like it's nothing.  Truly impressive.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 10:36:04 AM
Congrats Mike!!! - I'm so happy your project is a success - like Chuck points out - the next 50k miles will tell the story. The DLC is one feature I still have to try (I have a old shaft with oil ducts I may have Ed fix up for me), allthough my lobes still are holding up, but I haven't done 50k on them either...yet. Happy to welcome a new SB 4V (8V) addict into the "club"  ;-T ;-T ;-T Like Chuck once pointed out - they are more fun than a guy should be allowed to have  :D

Now you have to write up a few more ride repports :BEER:
Hoping to cranck up my silver streak project this next season, but time is an issue with the family growing (grandkids) and traveling our vacations away.

Ciao


Brian, thanks for all of your help man!  Finding those Pistons for me, sending the technical manuals and parts books, I really could not have put her together without your help!  Whew, I can certainly see that the 4V bikes are addictive.  More ride reports and random musings will be forthcoming.
Thank You again!
Cheers
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 10:45:41 AM
Just watched the ride vid; didn't see that last night.  Holy Moses did that thing get up there quick.  Gave it a fist full and never backed off.  Looks like valve float is a non-issue to the limiter and the fueling is very good.  That's a beast!  ;-T

Take away the initial clutch slip and you're up to 60 in no time flat and blowing straight up like it's nothing.  Truly impressive.

Thanks Man!

Yes, she is a lot quicker now, trying to describe it, seems like the power comes in effortlessly.  Before the swap it seemed like the intake was limiting acceleration, just the way it felt you know?  Now that choked down feeling is gone, the engine feels better.  Yes, no valve float, and the fueling is really close.  I was really thinking I would have to play with the tuning a lot, but it just ran.  Pretty cool.  That clutch slip is how I had to do it, I'm not heavy enough to keep the front wheel down....LOL!

BTW, how high do you rev your bike?  It feels like I could use another 1000 rpm or so.  Not worth dinging a valve though.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 22, 2015, 12:25:40 PM
BTW, how high do you rev your bike?  It feels like I could use another 1000 rpm or so.  Not worth dinging a valve though.

I would not take her beyond 7500rpm - valve float is taking off on my modded Lario @ 8000rpm using Nevada springs and China valves, and one other parameter is the longer push rods. More weight to move than on the Lario. Using titanium valves may give more head room and perhaps lightening the rockers, but now it starts to get a bit tricky, one do not want to weaken them  :)  ...and titanium valves comes with a hefty price tag.

Ciao
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 01:06:30 PM
I would not take her beyond 7500rpm - valve float is taking off on my modded Lario @ 8000rpm using Nevada springs and China valves, and one other parameter is the longer push rods. More weight to move than on the Lario. Using titanium valves may give more head room and perhaps lightening the rockers, but now it starts to get a bit tricky, one do not want to weaken them  :)  ...and titanium valves comes with a hefty price tag.

Ciao

Yes, I will keep her under 7500 rpm!  My goal now, with this bike, is to prove the reliability of the valve train.  I am confident this build will last.  Planning on a lot of riding this summer, trips to Memphis, Colorado, and California.  The miles will add up quickly:)
I do want to pursue another build later, starting next winter.
What I have in mind, just for fun, is to take a single TB engine, a 2013 model or later, and really hot rod it.  Put on some 850 cylinders with Arias pistons, titanium pushrods and valve keepers. Lightweight Carillo connecting rods and a lightened flywheel.  Four valve heads.  See about getting a custom rocker arm assembly built, perhaps titanium.
Also go with a custom cam.  Ha ha, that will be a fun ride.  Might take a while to get it all together..lol
I hope your winter is over soon Brian, maybe you can get your Silver Streak going!
I sent Martin an EBay link to a Lario engine.  It will not ship to other countries, but maybe he could use it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/moto-guzzi-v65-lario-motorgehuse-/161607624924
Anyway, good to hear from you!
Cheers.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 22, 2015, 01:08:39 PM
I agree with Ice Ice Baby on this rev thing.  If you feel you've got more to be had then you're still safe.  If Ice is getting valve float around the 8000 mark I'd stay clear of that.  You know yours is good to what the limiter indicates and that's perfect.  You can have some good safe fun now knowing this.  
I was trying to get a feel on mine from a fueling standpoint all last summer as well as dealing with life changes.  Those are behind me, though I'm not certain on the fueling.  It's good now, but think it can go higher on the mains.  I'm up there as is, but she is none too rich.  So... this spring I'm going to finish that job of dialing it up and ride ride ride.  I really do need to see what it can do up top.  I have a couple different options I could try for kicks.  Mine has even bigger valves and a modified cam.  What yours did tells me something!
How did it do low side of the gearing on pull in normal riding (under 4k RPM)?  Comparable to the two valve or did it feel bigger?

Much more intoxicating these 4-valves over the 2.  Betcha' can't wait for warm weather again.  ;D    
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 02:09:51 PM
I agree with Ice Ice Baby on this rev thing.  If you feel you've got more to be had then you're still safe.  If Ice is getting valve float around the 8000 mark I'd stay clear of that.  You know yours is good to what the limiter indicates and that's perfect.  You can have some good safe fun now knowing this.  
I was trying to get a feel on mine from a fueling standpoint all last summer as well as dealing with life changes.  Those are behind me, though I'm not certain on the fueling.  It's good now, but think it can go higher on the mains.  I'm up there as is, but she is none too rich.  So... this spring I'm going to finish that job of dialing it up and ride ride ride.  I really do need to see what it can do up top.  I have a couple different options I could try for kicks.  Mine has even bigger valves and a modified cam.  What yours did tells me something!
How did it do low side of the gearing on pull in normal riding (under 4k RPM)?  Comparable to the two valve or did it feel bigger?

Much more intoxicating these 4-valves over the 2.  Betcha' can't wait for warm weather again.  ;D    

Yes, I will just stay under 8K, she pulls hard all the way up there, no real need to wind her up any more.
I did a lot of experimenting with my air/fuel ratios when I first got the reflash/PCV/AT.  I set the target air fuel ratio at 5 to 20 percent throttle at 13.4:1, then left the higher throttle positions richer at 13.2:1.  I was looking for good fuel economy in the cruise range, then good response above that.  It worked ok, but I could tell she needed more gas down low.  I finally went with 13.2:1 AFR across the whole map as a target for the AutoTune.  That worked really well.  I guess my point is, these four valve engines like the gas!  Lol. Running a little lean just doesn't cut it.
Sounds like your bike with the bigger cam and valves would like that.
Yep, ride ride ride, that's my plan too!  It will be fun to find out how yours really runs once she's dialed in.

My impression on the low side pull, under 4k, is that it is effortless now.  When I went for my first ride, that was the first thing I noticed.  It was dramatic, seemed like I was going downhill all the time.  You know how that feels?  I noticed that I really had to watch my speed in town.  I would leave a stop sign and give it the same throttle that I was used to, then realize I was going way to fast, like 60 in a 45 zone, and have to back out of it.  So to answer your question, yes, it felt bigger.  Like a different motorcycle.  
Yeah, I'm done with the two valve stuff now.  I really was not sure how different it would be.  If it would even be worth it.  I realize too that I am enthusiastic about it, that I have to be objective in my observations.  That is another reason I'm planning a Dyno run to dial it in.  Get some real numbers on paper.
You know, thinking about looking at horsepower and torque figures for a bike.  The numbers seem to be just a general guide for what to expect.  I am not smart enough to do the math, but it seems like there should be a coefficient number for quickness of acceleration vs the reciprocating mass of the engine.
I say that because of what I noticed between the two and four valve engines.  Just the ease of the power coming in....
Of course I might be full of crap too!  LOL.
Either way, it's all fun!

60 degrees and sunny yesterday.  Today is 25 and snow.  Sheesh...
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: LowRyter on February 22, 2015, 02:15:46 PM
First ride report...it's a different bike..the only words I can use to describe it..The acceleration, rolling on power, is effortless now.  Its just comes on and keeps winding up.  I went out and broke the ton with her this afternoon.

Funny, at the end of the vid, I couldn't get 5th gear.  I backed off and caught it.  4th gear was holding against the rev limiter, 100 mph and 7600 rpm.  When I caught 5th, it was going through 110 and plenty of room left.  Had to back off for traffic ahead of me.  That was plenty for me, I know she can represent now...and not come apart!  LOL  I will have to compose my impressions in a more detailed manner and post them.  Right now I am extremely pleased with the conversion.  It was well worth it.  Next on the agenda is to see about longevity.  I really don't think I will have any problem putting a lot of miles on and having her be reliable.  We will see.

For your perusal and enjoyment:

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/th_63FE7CF9-03C9-4361-814B-739BFEE7DAE6_zpszyemq4yh.mp4) (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/63FE7CF9-03C9-4361-814B-739BFEE7DAE6_zpszyemq4yh.mp4)



zonker !   ~;
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 02:22:55 PM
  :+=copcar  ~;
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 22, 2015, 02:53:58 PM
Yes, I will just stay under 8K, she pulls hard all the way up there, no real need to wind her up any more.
I did a lot of experimenting with my air/fuel ratios when I first got the reflash/PCV/AT.  I set the target air fuel ratio at 5 to 20 percent throttle at 13.4:1, then left the higher throttle positions richer at 13.2:1.  I was looking for good fuel economy in the cruise range, then good response above that.  It worked ok, but I could tell she needed more gas down low.  I finally went with 13.2:1 AFR across the whole map as a target for the AutoTune.  That worked really well.  I guess my point is, these four valve engines like the gas!  Lol. Running a little lean just doesn't cut it.
Sounds like your bike with the bigger cam and valves would like that.
Yep, ride ride ride, that's my plan too!  It will be fun to find out how yours really runs once she's dialed in.

My impression on the low side pull, under 4k, is that it is effortless now.  When I went for my first ride, that was the first thing I noticed.  It was dramatic, seemed like I was going downhill all the time.  You know how that feels?  I noticed that I really had to watch my speed in town.  I would leave a stop sign and give it the same throttle that I was used to, then realize I was going way to fast, like 60 in a 45 zone, and have to back out of it.  So to answer your question, yes, it felt bigger.  Like a different motorcycle.  
Yeah, I'm done with the two valve stuff now.  I really was not sure how different it would be.  If it would even be worth it.  I realize too that I am enthusiastic about it, that I have to be objective in my observations.  That is another reason I'm planning a Dyno run to dial it in.  Get some real numbers on paper.
You know, thinking about looking at horsepower and torque figures for a bike.  The numbers seem to be just a general guide for what to expect.  I am not smart enough to do the math, but it seems like there should be a coefficient number for quickness of acceleration vs the reciprocating mass of the engine.
I say that because of what I noticed between the two and four valve engines.  Just the ease of the power coming in....
Of course I might be full of crap too!  LOL.
Either way, it's all fun!

60 degrees and sunny yesterday.  Today is 25 and snow.  Sheesh...

Oh I hear you on the butt dyno thing and torque.  Mine is so lightened with the Carrilo's and flywheel that it pulls well downstairs and feels much bigger (that's certainly not ONLY due to lightening) and pulls away from a stop with hardly any gas and just goes.  The dyno only said an increase of 15%, but that's not what I'm getting at the seat.  Who knows as Ed's dyno was on the fritz and torque numbers were hard to read period he said, and he spent many sessions trying to get things to come up right. At any rate, I don't care what the readings are.  The difference is in street riding the thing.  Yeah... I wish there was more to the story than just numbers for torque and hp.  Lightening makes things happen quicker, but that's not torque but sure acts like torque.  Hmmm...
If your next project is anything what you say, that could get the Heron head moving pretty good.  So much for saying the Heron head can't be dealt with successfully.
Side note:  Folks want more horse power in the small block.  I know I've poo poo'd it recently, but my ONLY gripe is not true hp figures but what can be had with 4-valve heads.  Your experiment has proven successful in showing what kind of real-world performance can come from Guzzi's current mill with 4-valve heads.  The actual hp gains may not prove exceptionally different, but it is exceptionally different.  Behaviorally they are two different beasts.  They should have made the "racer" with those heads.         
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 05:04:19 PM
Oh I hear you on the butt dyno thing and torque.  Mine is so lightened with the Carrilo's and flywheel that it pulls well downstairs and feels much bigger (that's certainly not ONLY due to lightening) and pulls away from a stop with hardly any gas and just goes.  The dyno only said an increase of 15%, but that's not what I'm getting at the seat.  Who knows as Ed's dyno was on the fritz and torque numbers were hard to read period he said, and he spent many sessions trying to get things to come up right. At any rate, I don't care what the readings are.  The difference is in street riding the thing.  Yeah... I wish there was more to the story than just numbers for torque and hp.  Lightening makes things happen quicker, but that's not torque but sure acts like torque.  Hmmm...
If your next project is anything what you say, that could get the Heron head moving pretty good.  So much for saying the Heron head can't be dealt with successfully.
Side note:  Folks want more horse power in the small block.  I know I've poo poo'd it recently, but my ONLY gripe is not true hp figures but what can be had with 4-valve heads.  Your experiment has proven successful in showing what kind of real-world performance can come from Guzzi's current mill with 4-valve heads.  The actual hp gains may not prove exceptionally different, but it is exceptionally different.  Behaviorally they are two different beasts.  They should have made the "racer" with those heads.         

Yep, I'm with you 100% there.  Like I said, my two valve was fine, I was happy with it.  But, now that the 4v is working, I wouldn't go back to the 2V.  I'm done with that.  Funny, the build I was talking about, with the later model bike, I was planning on 850 cc's anyway.  Thinking I should put the old style cylinders and Lario heads on it.
Already checked the head gasket and base gasket part numbers, they are the same as the earlier bikes.  So it should bolt up.  Gimme another year, we will see!  Lol
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 22, 2015, 06:52:53 PM
 
Quote
I realize too that I am enthusiastic about it, that I have to be objective in my observations.

I tried very hard to do that when I first took the Aero engine out for a putt. I have no clue why Guzzi hasn't been putting the aero heads on the small block since the 90s.  ~;  I'm fully aware that they gave up on the 4 valves, but the aero heads *are* an improvement, and they have the freakin tooling fer heavensakes. <shrug> I'm *not* trying to rain on your parade. I love the 4 valve performance, too.
Shufflin off, now.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 07:18:10 PM

I tried very hard to do that when I first took the Aero engine out for a putt. I have no clue why Guzzi hasn't been putting the aero heads on the small block since the 90s.  ~;  I'm fully aware that they gave up on the 4 valves, but the aero heads *are* an improvement, and they have the freakin tooling fer heavensakes. <shrug> I'm *not* trying to rain on your parade. I love the 4 valve performance, too.
Shufflin off, now.

That Hemi head would give you the best of both worlds.  Fewer moving parts, less reciprocating mass, airflow equivalent to or better than a 4V.  I do not know why they haven't been using them either.  Probably a bean counter figuring a $100 profit margin difference.  You are not raining on my parade..:)  I totally agree with you!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: pyoungbl on February 22, 2015, 08:15:15 PM
Hi, guys.  I have been following both the Aero and Lario builds with interest and excitement.  Nevertheless, I'm kinda confused.  I thought both were hemi heads with the combustion in the head rather than in the piston...ala Heron head.  It would seem to me that a hemi head 4 valve small block would be the cat's meow.  If you punched it out to 830, so much the better.  Still, having the gasses flow better seems to be a no brainer.  You guys seem to have unleashed the hidden genie in the small block so what, in your mind, is the secret to a better small block?

Peter Y.

FWIW, you guys rock!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 22, 2015, 08:29:28 PM
Hi, guys.  I have been following both the Aero and Lario builds with interest and excitement.  Nevertheless, I'm kinda confused.  I thought both were hemi heads with the combustion in the head rather than in the piston...ala Heron head.  It would seem to me that a hemi head 4 valve small block would be the cat's meow.  If you punched it out to 830, so much the better.  Still, having the gasses flow better seems to be a no brainer.  You guys seem to have unleashed the hidden genie in the small block so what, in your mind, is the secret to a better small block?

Peter Y.

FWIW, you guys rock!

If you read the threads Grasshopper, the secret(s) lies before you.   ???
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 08:36:28 PM
Hi, guys.  I have been following both the Aero and Lario builds with interest and excitement.  Nevertheless, I'm kinda confused.  I thought both were hemi heads with the combustion in the head rather than in the piston...ala Heron head.  It would seem to me that a hemi head 4 valve small block would be the cat's meow.  If you punched it out to 830, so much the better.  Still, having the gasses flow better seems to be a no brainer.  You guys seem to have unleashed the hidden genie in the small block so what, in your mind, is the secret to a better small block?

Peter Y.

FWIW, you guys rock!

Both the Aero engine and the Lario engine, have hemispherical combustion chambers. The Aero engine has one big intake and one big exhaust valve in each cylinder.  The Lario engine has two smaller intake valves, and two smaller exhaust valves in each cylinder.  They both achieve the same goal, more airflow through the head.
Just thought I'd throw that out there FWIW. LOL

I think a "better" small block should make more power than the current factory offering, and do so in a reliable manner.  Guzzi has been able to increase the power in the past, but at the expense of reliability.  I can't speak for Chuck, but my secret is to use components made of better materials, ie. stainless steel valves, and to control the engine electronically. Of course building a small block with even more performance, and maintaining bullet proof reliability would encompass far more than what I have done to date.  For example using lighter more durable valve train components, such as titanium, would do some good ,and be just as reliable.  I suppose it depends on how much you want to spend!
I hope I answered your question.  ;D ;D ;D  
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 22, 2015, 08:37:43 PM
If you read the threads Grasshopper, the secret(s) lies before you.   ???

True dat!  :) ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Aaron D. on February 23, 2015, 06:39:08 AM
The 2 valve hemi head has a combustion chamber that does not encourage good burning, sort of an orange peel section when the piston is at tdc, so it would be very hard to keep up with emissions while controlling temperature.

The 4 valve has a pent-roof chamber, a la Cosworth and most modern engines, good mixing on intake, etc., so the future of performance for new bikes lies there.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 23, 2015, 07:58:15 AM
The 2 valve hemi head has a combustion chamber that does not encourage good burning, sort of an orange peel section when the piston is at tdc, so it would be very hard to keep up with emissions while controlling temperature.

The 4 valve has a pent-roof chamber, a la Cosworth and most modern engines, good mixing on intake, etc., so the future of performance for new bikes lies there.

Interesting point.  I had not considered that.   
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on February 23, 2015, 07:59:36 AM
I like the Heron head.  In the past they were the cutting edge of race car and airplane development.  Now Guzzi is the only cycle manufacturer that still has a Heron headed bike.  

It's a good "real world" engine, meaning that it produced power in the low and mid range rpm, where you really ride.  Not the red line, where the magazines fawn over.

I still love my flat head Tecumseh snowblower too.  It goes and goes without end.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 23, 2015, 09:42:20 AM
Yes, I will keep her under 7500 rpm!  My goal now, with this bike, is to prove the reliability of the valve train.  I am confident this build will last.  Planning on a lot of riding this summer, trips to Memphis, Colorado, and California.  The miles will add up quickly:)
I do want to pursue another build later, starting next winter.
What I have in mind, just for fun, is to take a single TB engine, a 2013 model or later, and really hot rod it.  Put on some 850 cylinders with Arias pistons, titanium pushrods and valve keepers. Lightweight Carillo connecting rods and a lightened flywheel.  Four valve heads.  See about getting a custom rocker arm assembly built, perhaps titanium.
Also go with a custom cam.  Ha ha, that will be a fun ride.  Might take a while to get it all together..lol
I hope your winter is over soon Brian, maybe you can get your Silver Streak going!
I sent Martin an EBay link to a Lario engine.  It will not ship to other countries, but maybe he could use it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/moto-guzzi-v65-lario-motorgehuse-/161607624924
Anyway, good to hear from you!
Cheers.

What you did Mike was actually making an updated verson of the original 8V V75/4 mill from 1986. That engine claims 65hp on the crank @7.300rpm (I have one in my workshop waiting to get tested on my Targa - when time allowes) - but suffered the same issues as the Lario and Imola II - so Guzzi dropped the 8V concept all together. Interesting when you get her on a Dyno, although this is not a rock solid indicator of a bikes power, it can be used as compareson if you had a 4V (2V) version to compare her to :)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 23, 2015, 09:58:30 AM
Quote
but suffered the same issues as the Lario

That's why it didn't take too much prodding for me to go to southern Alabama and bring home the Aero engine.  It's had literally thousands of hours of running at 5500 rpm in the Mideast "testing" program.  ;D 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: IceBlue on February 23, 2015, 11:17:36 AM
That's why it didn't take too much prodding for me to go to southern Alabama and bring home the Aero engine.  It's had literally thousands of hours of running at 5500 rpm in the Mideast "testing" program.  ;D 

Yeah - that sure was one heck of a scoop Chuck!  ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 23, 2015, 12:54:51 PM
What you did Mike was actually making an updated verson of the original 8V V75/4 mill from 1986. That engine claims 65hp on the crank @7.300rpm (I have one in my workshop waiting to get tested on my Targa - when time allowes) - but suffered the same issues as the Lario and Imola II - so Guzzi dropped the 8V concept all together. Interesting when you get her on a Dyno, although this is not a rock solid indicator of a bikes power, it can be used as compareson if you had a 4V (2V) version to compare her to :)

Yes, I think Ed Milich did a Dyno on a stock V7Cafe last year, before he modified it.  Perhaps that would be a good comparison.  I was going to Dyno my bike.  The one shop in town here that could do it closed, so it would have been a hassle to get it done.  As it is, I will have to take a day off work and go to Tulsa.  It will be fun to see what is really going on!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 23, 2015, 01:51:30 PM
All dynos are not created the same..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 23, 2015, 05:13:33 PM
That's why it didn't take too much prodding for me to go to southern Alabama and bring home the Aero engine.  It's had literally thousands of hours of running at 5500 rpm in the Mideast "testing" program.  ;D 

Too bad instead of designing completely new 2 valve heads, they just didn't "test" the 4 valve heads in a similar fashion until all of the bugs were worked out of them. That could have changed the history of Guzzi - the whole V7 series, Breva onwards, might not have been considered "underpowered" or at least not by as much. 
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 23, 2015, 06:03:46 PM
Too bad instead of designing completely new 2 valve heads, they just didn't "test" the 4 valve heads in a similar fashion until all of the bugs were worked out of them. That could have changed the history of Guzzi - the whole V7 series, Breva onwards, might not have been considered "underpowered" or at least not by as much. 

Airplane engines are all about torque. I'm guessing that when they decided they needed more power in *that* application, they went with the proven big valves hemi head design. Of course, your guess is as good (or better) than mine when it comes to Guzzi.  ;D
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on February 23, 2015, 07:17:33 PM
All dynos are not created the same..

That is true.  The primary reason I'm going to Dyno her is to get the fuel mapping perfect.  Having a readout of the power and torque is incidental, but a nice bonus.  I have to say, she ran so good right from the start, I was really surprised!  I know the Auto tune will not change the map more than 20% at a time, so I must have been under that threshold with my target AFR.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 23, 2015, 08:04:32 PM
Too bad instead of designing completely new 2 valve heads, they just didn't "test" the 4 valve heads in a similar fashion until all of the bugs were worked out of them. That could have changed the history of Guzzi - the whole V7 series, Breva onwards, might not have been considered "underpowered" or at least not by as much. 

Yes... it seems they swept it under the rug pretty quickly.  If you saw their valves, their soft cams, their tight springs, you'd understand right away what's going on.  Add to that the happy wrist syndrome and things go kaboom.  It all makes perfect sense to me.  They have limiters now with FI and CAN use better metal (coatings) they didn't think to back in the day.  I can't imagine they'd use push rods these days, but they aint bad even at that.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 18, 2015, 09:12:35 AM
Any more rides Mike? I'm smitten with FI 8 valve you've thought up. That video you shot tells it all. Straight up! How about more pics of the bike??
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 19, 2015, 08:48:54 PM
Any more rides Mike? I'm smitten with FI 8 valve you've thought up. That video you shot tells it all. Straight up! How about more pics of the bike??
Ive been riding it every day its not raining or snowing.  Got about 400 miles on it since the conversion.  Todd @ Guzzitech has been a huge help getting the fuel dialed in.  I think it is just about perfect now.  Going to do an online tuning session this Saturday, and call it good.  It runs a lot better now, more power than before.  Thinking about borrowing a friends GoPro and doing another speed run this Saturday.  Think it will do 120 no problem, maybe bump 130.
I'll post it up for fun.  I'll go take a pic and post it.  I redid the tank paint, and put 750S decals on...I think it looks good now.
Cheers Man!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 19, 2015, 09:13:12 PM
Ive been riding it every day its not raining or snowing.  Got about 400 miles on it since the conversion.  Todd @ Guzzitech has been a huge help getting the fuel dialed in.  I think it is just about perfect now.  Going to do an online tuning session this Saturday, and call it good.  It runs a lot better now, more power than before.  Thinking about borrowing a friends GoPro and doing another speed run this Saturday.  Think it will do 120 no problem, maybe bump 130.
I'll post it up for fun.  I'll go take a pic and post it.  I redid the tank paint, and put 750S decals on...I think it looks good now.
Cheers Man!

Oh man, you have to post another run!  ;-T  Even at 120, that is a BIG bump from a stock 750. I wouldn't doubt you might pull more if your fueling is even better.  Good for you to get that many miles on it.  Pics, yes please.   
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 19, 2015, 10:36:49 PM
I like the new side cover decals.  Man, living on this dirt road sucks.  The bike is always dirty.
Some cool additions I'm doing. Got some Racetech shocks coming, from Guzzitech.  Also got a Guzzitech exhaust coming.  Its going to be Cerakoated in velvet black.  Anybody want some free Agostinis?  Just donate to the forum an amount you deem appropriate, first person to speak up gets em....after I get my new pipes installed..lol  I'm going to hide those horns, dont like how they look.
Ok, some pics:
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg1_zpsmn2hhjio.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg1_zpsmn2hhjio.jpg.html)

The next two pics kind of show how much bigger the new heads are, they are quite prominent compared to the two valve ones.  
 (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg3_zpsm0ezyycj.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg3_zpsm0ezyycj.jpg.html)

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/image.jpg2_zpssc0oeitr.jpg) (http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/mwrenn/media/image.jpg2_zpssc0oeitr.jpg.html)
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on March 20, 2015, 02:22:35 AM
Tank paint & side over decals look sweet! Pm sent


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Title: Re:
Post by: Unkept on March 20, 2015, 04:59:17 AM
I'd love those pipes but I'd just horde them until I got a small block....
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: twodogs on March 20, 2015, 05:48:23 AM
I shot you a PM about your pipes, nice job on your V7 by the way :BEER:
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: sign216 on March 20, 2015, 06:01:44 AM
Terrific bike.  Can't wait to see a dyno.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 08:03:51 AM
Mayor of BBQ jumped on it.  I'll ship them out when I get my new pipes installed.  Just make a nice donation to the board and we'll call it even. 
Cheers man!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 08:10:21 AM
That was *very* generous, Mike.. ;-T
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 08:14:51 AM
Terrific bike.  Can't wait to see a dyno.
Going out to see Todd in June, if all the planets align correctly.  Going to Dyno tune it then.  It will be fun to see!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 08:16:46 AM
I shot you a PM about your pipes, nice job on your V7 by the way :BEER:
Thanks for the compliment!  Gotta love the small blocks!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 08:18:12 AM
That was *very* generous, Mike.. ;-T
Payin it forward:):). This board has helped me a lot!!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: oldbike54 on March 20, 2015, 08:18:33 AM
 Are you bringing the hot rod to Cedar Vale ? Amazing work  ;-T

  Dusty
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 08:18:57 AM
Payin it forward:):). This board has helped me a lot!!!

Me, too..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 20, 2015, 09:02:40 AM
I like those side covers as well. You gonna add a fairing or leave her naked?  That's quite a story about the deer strike/rebuild.


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 01:19:45 PM
Yep, bringing her up to Cedar Vale.  Gonna be a hoot!!!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 01:22:05 PM
I like those side covers as well. You gonna add a fairing or leave her naked?  That's quite a story about the deer strike/rebuild.


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I want to put on a Guzzi Record kit, if I can get one.  Paint it red with black striping....
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 03:48:10 PM
I want to put on a Guzzi Record kit, if I can get one.  Paint it red with black striping....

That would be killer..
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: oldbike54 on March 20, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
Yep, bringing her up to Cedar Vale.  Gonna be a hoot!!!


 Cool , we promise to keep Stormtruck away from it  ;D

  Dusty
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 10:28:58 PM


 Cool , we promise to keep Stormtruck away from it  ;D

  Dusty
Lol!  Maybe he can just hug it!
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 21, 2015, 05:50:14 AM
Storms a thrasher no doubt.  :D He's got my old Centauro (and previous to that, Chuck's). He gave it a wrist full my buddy said on his trial ride. All I know is he came back with a huge grin and said "I'll take it".  ;-T

That fairing would be the cats meow Mike.
Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on March 21, 2015, 05:53:16 PM
Mayor of BBQ jumped on it.  I'll ship them out when I get my new pipes installed.  Just make a nice donation to the board and we'll call it even. 
Cheers man!

Being an insomniac has its benefits! If they fit my small block..  I'll not only donate.. But I'll sell the Busso Lario cans I have on there now and add that to the total :thumb

If they don't work out, I'll pass them along to another WG list person under the same conditions!

Really great offer mwrenn!  Also I vote YES on the record kit for your bike!


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Title: Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 21, 2015, 06:12:35 PM
Mike is a VERY generous guy!  ;-T