Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: blackcat on October 26, 2013, 09:31:01 PM

Title: Aero engine rescue
Post by: blackcat on October 26, 2013, 09:31:01 PM
For sale. Price seems reasonable considering it is new.

http://montgomery.craigslist.org/mcy/4118261486.html
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Shorty on October 27, 2013, 01:28:49 AM
Small airboat mill?  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: wildduck on October 27, 2013, 01:46:26 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_RQ-5_Hunter

early unmanned flying machine,

John
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 27, 2013, 07:29:59 AM
Someone buy this and make the $#!* Ippo!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vZgPQ2APTBQ/UA4vbgjtjVI/AAAAAAAAALc/37boSrxqEE8/s1600/105737075_59Lf9-M.jpeg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on October 27, 2013, 09:20:40 AM
IIRC the drone engine is 750cc 4 valve per cyl design
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 27, 2013, 09:29:20 AM
IIRC the drone engine is 750cc 4 valve per cyl design

Actually it is supposed to be a 2 valve per cylinder design, but with Hemi head/piston design. It was claimed to produce around 63hp as well.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 27, 2013, 09:46:45 AM
I don't know why I'm not headed to Birmingham as we speak. Too many projects, too little time. :(
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 27, 2013, 09:49:52 AM
I don't know why I'm not headed to Birmingham as we speak. Too many projects, too little time. :(

Maybe "I" have less projects and more time than you do Chuck (how is that possible?)! I just don't have the money.

So feel free to head down to Birmingham, pick up the mill for me, and I'll take care of the rest!  ;D

Could take me awhile to figure things out though... I'd need a lot of parts to complete a project around that engine.

This same engine has been up for sale before, somebody here needs to rescue it.

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Pfaff! on October 27, 2013, 10:03:35 AM
Someone buy this and make the $#!* Ippo!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vZgPQ2APTBQ/UA4vbgjtjVI/AAAAAAAAALc/37boSrxqEE8/s1600/105737075_59Lf9-M.jpeg)

 ;-T :+1
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 27, 2013, 12:04:02 PM
I'm thinking more like putting it in this..

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/007-1.jpg)

although a new 750 lump in the Lario would look good, too. Just the same, both would be projects, (the Lario not so much)  I'm going through the Strada this winter, and unfortunately.. w w w work is picking up. ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on October 27, 2013, 02:16:11 PM
fly in to the Ponca City airport for the mexican food.   :P
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on October 27, 2013, 02:43:00 PM
As said, the V75 Hi.e is a V75 with hemi heads, almost identical to those of the big block, is evident the advantage in the diameter of the valves.

(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/culasses600x260.jpg)
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/culasses600x279.jpg)
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/pistons300x160.jpg)
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/culasses_dessin300x435.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: gusanito on October 27, 2013, 04:59:49 PM
The ad has been on CL for a few months, every time I do a search for Guzzi, it comes up.
A few years ago there was another one for sale out of Dothan, Al. I think. Ft. Rucker is just up the road.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: FGO on October 27, 2013, 06:23:49 PM
If I recall Ed Milich had a funky cam from a drone engine and mentioned they ran in a reverse direction to the motorcycle engine, this could make a first ride interesting.....
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pyoungbl on October 27, 2013, 07:22:01 PM
As said, the V75 Hi.e is a V75 with hemi heads, almost identical to those of the big block, is evident the advantage in the diameter of the valves.


Man, this hemi head design looks like it is begging for a V7 Stelvio.  That's the missing ingredient for a competitive 750cc machine. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on October 27, 2013, 07:25:24 PM
so why is the Heron on the V7 vs Hemi?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Murray on October 27, 2013, 07:46:03 PM
so why is the Heron on the V7 vs Hemi?

Cheaper to manufacture.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on October 27, 2013, 08:54:28 PM
If you double every dimension of a cylinder, the cross section of the valves increase 4 times, but the volume to fill increase 8 times.
In the original V35/V50 the cylinder was small enough than the dimension of the valves of the heron head was enough to fill it without problems, and the heron head, with the tecnology of the time, was way more economical (the tools had to work in only one direction). But, as the displacement increased, the heron heads were no more adequate, also because the 80X74 V75 is a long stroke (and so, small bore) engine compared to the 66X50.6 V35, so the valves are comparatively smaller. Bigger cross sections of the valves, and so the hemi heads, or the 4V heads, are needed to keep it competitive (infact, the V75 was born with the 4V heads).
Why it has heron heads in 2013, only the Gods know...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on October 28, 2013, 12:54:45 AM
Totally unsuitable for a manned aircraft the way it's shown there. Those heads dont have dual plugs,dual ignition is a must for a manned aircraft.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 28, 2013, 08:05:16 AM
Does anyone have a close up picture of this engine? I've been searching, but haven't found a detailed picture..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on October 28, 2013, 08:20:34 AM
Apart for the hemi heads, the pistons, a dedicated camshaft, and an extended sump, the engine is a standard V75. In the Ippogrifo it was coupled with the (will be) gearbox of the V11.
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/moteur1_300x260.jpg)
http://s16.postimg.org/6syix5uid/visita_museo_guzzi_084.jpg
http://s16.postimg.org/grjhjn3xx/visita_museo_guzzi_083.jpg
http://s7.postimg.org/y7cbgfti3/Hunter_Ippo_mill.jpg
http://s9.postimg.org/c86yuk9gf/Hunter_Ippo_2.jpg
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 28, 2013, 08:26:07 AM
Apart for the hemi heads, the pistons, a dedicated camshaft, and an extended sump, the engine is a standard V75. In the Ippogrifo it was coupled with the (will be) gearbox of the V11.
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/moteur1_300x260.jpg)

If somebody bought the engine in Alabama, they should disassemble it and get those individual parts scanned... that way they would have a 3D backup of each piece, could make replacement parts if necessary, and maybe they could share that information with other small block owners so they could make their own "hemi" small blocks!  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 28, 2013, 11:01:07 AM
Thanks for the pix, Dogwalker. I'm having a tough time deciding if I want to deal with the issues of converting it to put in the Lario. Do you happen to know what compression ratio it is?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on October 28, 2013, 11:12:46 AM
  I'm having a tough time deciding if I want to deal with the issues of converting it to put in the Lario. 

Do it!  Do it!  Do it!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 28, 2013, 11:21:23 AM
Do it!  Do it!  Do it!

Group pressure, come on WG! Unite to get Chuck to buy this thing! ;)

I'm driving down to see it the minute it's in the Guzzi Garageô
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on October 28, 2013, 11:28:28 AM
Do you happen to know what compression ratio it is?
9.75/1. Is a bit low since, for military use, the engine was designed to function wit low grade fuel. With this spec, the engine is claimed to have +31.25% power and +10.6 torque over a standard  V75 2V.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 28, 2013, 12:09:48 PM
9.75/1. Is a bit low since, for military use, the engine was designed to function wit low grade fuel. With this spec, the engine is claimed to have +31.25% power and +10.6 torque over a standard  V75 2V.

Sounds good. I was afraid of it possibly having super high compression to run on 100 octane or even 130 (!) No computer with it. The guy is going to send me some pictures tonight.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on October 28, 2013, 12:35:29 PM
Do it!  Do it!  Do it!
:+1 C'mon Chuck , be a hero .
Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Zoom Zoom on October 28, 2013, 12:46:15 PM
Thanks for the pix, Dogwalker. I'm having a tough time deciding if I want to deal with the issues of converting it to put in the Lario. Do you happen to know what compression ratio it is?

Leave the Lario with its original motor. THEN, rig up the additional motor on the back with a pusher prop! Finally, hang on. ;D

John Henry
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 28, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
:+1 C'mon Chuck , be a hero .
Dusty

 :+1

I'll volunteer to be a pair of hands if you need any help disassembling, reverse-engineering, or staring at the Hemi aero engine once you've got it in your garage Chuck.

I'm not a great mechanic, but I can hold your beer and bring food, etc.  ;D

I'd be a part of Moto Guzzi history, as wouldn't you be the first person (besides maybe the factory for the prototype Ippo) to put the drone engine on a bike?

-Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: barenekd on October 28, 2013, 01:10:45 PM
Quote
Those heads don't have dual plugs,dual ignition is a must for a manned aircraft.

Not for homebuilts. You can use any engine you want, Model A Fords, Henderson 4s, Volkswagons, et al.
Bare
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on October 28, 2013, 01:16:51 PM
Not for homebuilts. You can use any engine you want, Model A Fords, Henderson 4s, Volkswagons, et al.
Bare
Remember those Triumph MC engine powered Gyrocopters ? Cut my teeth on Triumphs , do NOT want to fly in a rig with a Limey motor  :D
Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dibble on October 28, 2013, 02:40:56 PM
Quote
Remember those Triumph MC engine powered Gyrocopters ? Cut my teeth on Triumphs , do NOT want to fly in a rig with a Limey motor  Cheesy
Dusty

Rolls-Royce Merlin?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: cpallen on October 28, 2013, 02:53:00 PM
We could take up a collection to sweeten the deal a little. Paypal gifts anyone?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on October 28, 2013, 03:01:19 PM
Rolls-Royce Merlin?
OK OK , I will give you that one , and maybe those English "Ford and Chevy" open wheel racing engines .  :D
Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on October 28, 2013, 03:14:12 PM
(http://www.creas-it.it/images/gu-vola.jpg)

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: auzziguzzi on October 28, 2013, 03:51:29 PM
The Ultralight has the heads mounted the opposite way round to the engine shown earlier in the thread. 

I assume the heads are symmetrical (not identical though) thereby allowing this kind of flexibility.

I'd like to see this engine in a lighter mini-Stelvio, too.   In Australia, a 650 variant would allow our learner riders into the fold (660cc limit for new riders).  Right now, there is no new Guzzi offering for them in Oz. 

Bring back the NTX650, I say.

John

(http://www.creas-it.it/images/gu-vola.jpg)


Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 28, 2013, 05:15:35 PM
The guy is supposed to send me pictures tonight. There's no computer. I would say it is a fair hill to climb to put it in the Lario.. but doable. Probably ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Murray on October 28, 2013, 06:24:03 PM
The Ultralight has the heads mounted the opposite way round to the engine shown earlier in the thread. 

I assume the heads are symmetrical (not identical though) thereby allowing this kind of flexibility.



From distant memory I think the hunters or a variation of them had a push pull setup with the Guzzi motors ie one at the front one at the rear so by rights there should also be a proper cam for them readily available.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 28, 2013, 07:21:56 PM
From distant memory I think the hunters or a variation of them had a push pull setup with the Guzzi motors ie one at the front one at the rear so by rights there should also be a proper cam for them readily available.

Yeah, but they could all be the same rotation. <shrug> There's not a whole lot of info on them that I can find. This one is a pusher..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on October 29, 2013, 12:24:26 AM
Not for homebuilts. You can use any engine you want, Model A Fords, Henderson 4s, Volkswagons, et al.
Bare
Its not about whats legal but whats senseable. There is a good reason why commercial aircraft have dual ignition and fuel systems.Only a fool would chance a single system.
Ciao 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 05:42:25 AM
Its not about whats legal but whats senseable. There is a good reason why commercial aircraft have dual ignition and fuel systems.Only a fool would chance a single system.
Ciao 

I was foolish with a VW conversion in Mouser (the yellow and green low wing in this thread) for several years. Flew all over the Midwest single ignition, but it was a magneto that could be inspected and maintained rigorously. <shrug> Since then, I've added a secondary ignition using a Dyna S and 10mm plugs.
I'd say flying single ignition is considerably less foolish than riding a motorcycle if you get right down to it.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 29, 2013, 06:04:06 AM
I was foolish with a VW conversion in Mouser (the yellow and green low wing in this thread) for several years. Flew all over the Midwest single ignition, but it was a magneto that could be inspected and maintained rigorously. <shrug> Since then, I've added a secondary ignition using a Dyna S and 10mm plugs.
I'd say flying single ignition is considerably less foolish than riding a motorcycle if you get right down to it.. ;D

 ;D

Did the gentlemen send you any pictures Chuck?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 06:28:36 AM
;D

Did the gentlemen send you any pictures Chuck?

Nope. I'm guessing that he's picture challenged.  ;D You'd think with a fish on the line, he'd be reeling... ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jas67 on October 29, 2013, 07:10:33 AM
:+1 C'mon Chuck , be a hero .
Dusty

 :+1 :+1

DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

It would be really cool if someone could get 3D laser scans of the heads and then go to a 3D print shop to get casting molds made.
They'd make some nice hot-rod heads for smallblocks!

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on October 29, 2013, 07:31:16 AM
I was foolish with a VW conversion in Mouser (the yellow and green low wing in this thread) for several years. Flew all over the Midwest single ignition, but it was a magneto that could be inspected and maintained rigorously. <shrug> Since then, I've added a secondary ignition using a Dyna S and 10mm plugs.
I'd say flying single ignition is considerably less foolish than riding a motorcycle if you get right down to it.. ;D
Well all I can say chuck after 38 years as a certifying engineer in the aviation industry is "better you than me".
Just out of interest chuck, why go to the dual ignition if safety is not a concern?
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Murray on October 29, 2013, 08:23:25 AM

Just out of interest chuck, why go to the dual ignition if safety is not a concern?
Ciao

Ignition systems have come a long way since the 1930's, unfortunately a lot of light aircraft motors haven't, the dual plugs also give a much cleaner burn aircraft engines normally been low revving and large capacity to create HP.

Anyway back to the motor the one mounted in the in the ultralight is a pusher but the one pictured from the Guzzi museum seems to be a puller (for the want of a term that doesn't amuse 15year old boys). Assuming they stick with the age old Guzzi tradition of keeping the exhaust valves in the maximum airflow So seems to be pretty fair bet there are two versions of the camshaft.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Cheese on October 29, 2013, 09:44:13 AM
;D

Did the gentlemen send you any pictures Chuck?

I suppose there may be more places in Indiana to put down in an emergency than here in upstate NY?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 10:09:49 AM
Well all I can say chuck after 38 years as a certifying engineer in the aviation industry is "better you than me".
Just out of interest chuck, why go to the dual ignition if safety is not a concern?
Ciao

Phil, I don't think anything I said even intimated that safety *wasn't* a concern. When I built this airplane 33 years ago (!) a crankshaft driven single ignition was the only thing available for a VW conversion. I eventually used a Dyna S driven from the same location as the distributor on a VW engine. That gives true dual ignition. A crank triggered Dyna S firing 10mm plugs could be retrofited to the Guzzi aero engine for dual ignition, but you'd have to carry two batterys for a true dual system. I would do that. A magneto is extremely reliable, and can be inspected, etc. Electronic ignition is reliable, too... but... it can suddenly fail without symptoms. I have never seen a magneto fail without talking to you...
It's a moot point, anyway. The only reason to put the Guzzi in Mouser would be the novelty of doing it. There's no performance gain over my reliable  ;D VW.

Quote
I suppose there may be more places in Indiana to put down in an emergency than here in upstate NY?
Yep. ;D The midwest is an experimental aviation hotbed for a reason. That said, Mouser glides at 90mph, and an off airport landing would require picking a really good field to keep from pranging her.. ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 10:12:59 AM
:+1 :+1

DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

It would be really cool if someone could get 3D laser scans of the heads and then go to a 3D print shop to get casting molds made.
They'd make some nice hot-rod heads for smallblocks!



I don't think that you know how much that I don't know.. ;D The combustion chambers and external shape would be a no brainer, but is it even feasible to digitize all the internal stuff?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 29, 2013, 10:43:04 AM
I don't think that you know how much that I don't know.. ;D The combustion chambers and external shape would be a no brainer, but is it even feasible to digitize all the internal stuff?

I believe there are a few services out there to X-Ray scan parts to CAD drawings... http://www.jgarantmc.com/ct-services (http://www.jgarantmc.com/ct-services)

I bet they are expensive though! You may want to take donations to get that kind of work done. The other method is to cut the casting in half in order to laser scan it, but that is sacrilege eh?  :o
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 11:01:11 AM
I believe there are a few services out there to X-Ray scan parts to CAD drawings... http://www.jgarantmc.com/ct-services (http://www.jgarantmc.com/ct-services)

I bet they are expensive though! You may want to take donations to get that kind of work done. The other method is to cut the casting in half in order to laser scan it, but that is sacrilege eh?  :o

Uh...yeah. That is some seriously expensive technology.  :o Remember the problems Iceblue had just getting something as simple as valves made? ;D What we need is someone with an inside to the Guzzi factory to talk them into making up some heads. They Shirley  ;) haven't thrown away the tooling..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jas67 on October 29, 2013, 11:07:01 AM
Uh...yeah. That is some seriously expensive technology.  :o Remember the problems Iceblue had just getting something as simple as valves made? ;D What we need is someone with an inside to the Guzzi factory to talk them into making up some heads. They Shirley  ;) haven't thrown away the tooling..

With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 11:14:20 AM
With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:


Yeah, they are "retired", this one is mil surplus. He no doubt bought it by the pound. Still, I'll bet Guzzi still has the tooling. They Shirley know that the Heron head has outlived it's usefulness, and if they plan on continuing the small block, an upgrade is long overdue.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Cheese on October 29, 2013, 11:16:25 AM
With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:


On the other hand, if there are more than several of these things being "retired" then they may be obtainable at auction or other millitary outlet?

Peter
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on October 29, 2013, 11:24:12 AM
With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired. 
On the Hunter drone, they have been replaced with diesels derived from the engine of the Smart.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 29, 2013, 11:31:49 AM
There has to be some kind of "cheap" and creative way we could measure and recreate the heads without the expensive x-ray scan... I'll do a little bit of research as I can.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on October 29, 2013, 11:32:28 AM
With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:


That happened several years ago.  The UAVs that had been Guzzi powered were converted to Mercedes diesel power.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 11:41:09 AM
There has to be some kind of "cheap" and creative way we could measure and recreate the heads without the expensive x-ray scan... I'll do a little bit of research as I can.

Ok, once you get the digital data, who you gonna get to make the heads? Cheap, of course.. ;D
I used to do engineering modelmaking for GM back in another lifetime, and making 100 relatively complex parts from scratch is/was hellaciously expensive. I realize that things have changed since the 90s, but I'll bet it is still out of reach for us Guzzi Guys.
Believe me, Joe.. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and I hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 29, 2013, 11:45:48 AM
Ok, once you get the digital data, who you gonna get to make the heads? Cheap, of course.. ;D
I used to do engineering modelmaking for GM back in another lifetime, and making 100 relatively complex parts from scratch is/was hellaciously expensive. I realize that things have changed since the 90s, but I'll bet it is still out of reach for us Guzzi Guys.
Believe me, Joe.. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and I hope I'm wrong.

Ah, but it's already beginning to drizzle Chuck...  ;)

We'll just need to find more of these milsurp engines is all...  ;D

I think the key though would be to at least document anything we can about the design, so that in whatever distant future there is... the possibility of making replica heads would be there and we would have the data to produce those replicas. :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Cheese on October 29, 2013, 12:12:02 PM
On the other hand, if there are more than several of these things being "retired" then they may be obtainable at auction or other millitary outlet?

Peter

they were never very numerous..

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-155.html

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on October 29, 2013, 12:44:53 PM
they were never very numerous..

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-155.html



"a total of 56 UAVs had been delivered" when the BQM-155A program was discontinued.

That's 112 engines out there.  Plenty of fodder for our little group's needs!

 :bike
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on October 29, 2013, 01:27:03 PM
The last time one was one the Craigslist it was around 5000$ if my memory serves me right.

The Ippo/Hunter mill is rare and a real steel at 1400$

Go Go Go Chuck!! ;-T
New project  :pop

Best 2V 750 SB mill ever made by Guzzi - only the gods know why they don't use it in the V7 line of bikes.

The 8V V75 mill claims 65hp
The Ippo/Hunter 4V mill claims 63hp
The V7 improved 4V mill claims 51hp  :-\
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 01:58:29 PM
Well, I'm headed to Alabama this weekend.  ;D Looks to me like it has a computer.. ;D ;D and just might run the correct direction. ;D ;D ;D We'll see....
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/frontview_zpsadf800b1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/frontview_zpsadf800b1.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/backview_zps1346c373.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/backview_zps1346c373.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 29, 2013, 02:03:35 PM
Chuck, pardon my language, but that thing is Badass!  ;-T Love it.

-Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on October 29, 2013, 02:08:14 PM
Chuck, pardon my language, but that thing is Badass!  ;-T Love it.

-Joe

 :+1

 ;-T

(now watch Guzzi show up at EICMA this weekend with a V7R powered by the aero engine!)   ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on October 29, 2013, 02:13:29 PM
With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:


You might contact Northup Grummon to check for surplus engines.  They has the support contract for the Army (Huntsville AL IIRC).    I think the Isrealis (OEM) still uses the Guzzi Petrol engines.

I might add, before I retired as an AF civilian one of the programs my shop ran was a Foreign Military Program supporting Cessna 172 aircraft.  These airplane were converted to Theilert Diesel engines.  There is an entire soap opera to it but is a quite a challenge considering the aircraft.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 02:22:31 PM
I've never seen this way of holding a propeller. Just a coarse knurl on the prop hub, and a big hunker nut to squeeze it all together.  :o No prop bolts at all.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on October 29, 2013, 02:26:58 PM
I've never seen this way of holding a propeller. Just a coarse knurl on the prop hub, and a big hunker nut to squeeze it all together.  :o No prop bolts at all.
Like a geezus nut on a helicopter.
Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on October 29, 2013, 02:31:25 PM
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/backview_zps1346c373.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/backview_zps1346c373.jpg.html)

Looks like one hell of an alternator on the nose of that engine.  And the computer and relays are clear in the photo.   
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on October 29, 2013, 02:39:15 PM
The V75Hi.e originally had Weber injection. The control units were pretty big at the beginning of the '90s.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rodekyll on October 29, 2013, 03:16:01 PM
The ecu box reminds me of the early VW T III  injection -- L-jetronic?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 03:17:34 PM
Quote
Looks like one hell of an alternator on the nose of that engine.

Should have no trouble powering some electric gloves.. ;D
Ya know, I'll just *have* to make up something to bolt it to. I have a junk Mouser prop that can be bored to fit.. ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 29, 2013, 03:21:49 PM
Should have no trouble powering some electric gloves.. ;D
Ya know, I'll just *have* to make up something to bolt it to. I have a junk Mouser prop that can be bored to fit.. ~;

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking! You could make your money back Chuck... selling that alternator to an aspiring 2013 V7 owner who needs to power his full Gerbing suit, and have the ability to provide power for the entire campsite at a Guzzi rally!  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on October 29, 2013, 03:40:05 PM
The ecu box reminds me of the early VW T III  injection -- L-jetronic?

Yeah.  Kind of looks like the box for the Bosch efi on my ALFA GTV-6 !!   ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 03:49:58 PM
That's EXACTLY what I was thinking! You could make your money back Chuck... selling that alternator to an aspiring 2013 V7 owner who needs to power his full Gerbing suit, and have the ability to provide power for the entire campsite at a Guzzi rally!  ;D

Maybe I could start a portable welding service?  ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Moto on October 29, 2013, 04:12:31 PM
Ok, once you get the digital data, who you gonna get to make the heads? Cheap, of course.. ;D
I used to do engineering modelmaking for GM back in another lifetime, and making 100 relatively complex parts from scratch is/was hellaciously expensive. I realize that things have changed since the 90s, but I'll bet it is still out of reach for us Guzzi Guys.
Believe me, Joe.. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and I hope I'm wrong.

First, Chuck you must do this. Your name will go down in history. Immortality awaits. (Though not the kind that Woody Allen wants.)

Regarding x-rays, etc., I don't see the need. If you can make molds of the inside shapes of the combustion chambers and the ports, and measure the diameters of the valves and the length of their travel into the cylinders, that's about all the relevant information needed to make close substitutes. Oh, the locations of the seats for the pushrods on the rockers is also needed. Anyway, it's essentially external features of the head (including the inside surface of the combustion chamber). The details of the rockers, bearings, etc., inside a new head could be based on some other engine. Right?

Moto
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on October 29, 2013, 04:33:38 PM
Phil, I don't think anything I said even intimated that safety *wasn't* a concern. When I built this airplane 33 years ago (!) a crankshaft driven single ignition was the only thing available for a VW conversion. I eventually used a Dyna S driven from the same location as the distributor on a VW engine. That gives true dual ignition. A crank triggered Dyna S firing 10mm plugs could be retrofited to the Guzzi aero engine for dual ignition, but you'd have to carry two batterys for a true dual system. I would do that. A magneto is extremely reliable, and can be inspected, etc. Electronic ignition is reliable, too... but... it can suddenly fail without symptoms. I have never seen a magneto fail without talking to you...
It's a moot point, anyway. The only reason to put the Guzzi in Mouser would be the novelty of doing it. There's no performance gain over my reliable  ;D VW.
Yep. ;D The midwest is an experimental aviation hotbed for a reason. That said, Mouser glides at 90mph, and an off airport landing would require picking a really good field to keep from pranging her.. ;)
Thanks for the info Chuck, Ive grown up in a world of system redundancy and any other way worries me.
BTW the setup in the last set of photos looks like a "pusher" application to me.
I think I'd prefer the exhausts facing into the airflow or the cooling is going to need some high drag ducting in a fwd facing installation.
Can Guzzi heads be turned around and swapped to the opposite side and the cam changed to suit? Never really thought about it.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on October 29, 2013, 04:39:56 PM
Is the same p8 marelli as on first FI guzzi's like daytona and california 1000. But can be used with carbs too naturally.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 04:46:50 PM
Is the same p8 marelli as on first FI guzzi's like daytona and california 1000. But can be used with carbs too naturally.

Thanks, Paul! I was hoping GuzziDiag would talk to it. Great news.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on October 29, 2013, 04:50:23 PM
Thanks, Paul! I was hoping GuzziDiag would talk to it. Great news.
Sooo... does this foreshadow events ?
Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 04:52:20 PM
Thanks for the info Chuck, Ive grown up in a world of system redundancy and any other way worries me.
BTW the setup in the last set of photos looks like a "pusher" application to me.
I think I'd prefer the exhausts facing into the airflow or the cooling is going to need some high drag ducting in a fwd facing installation.
Can Guzzi heads be turned around and swapped to the opposite side and the cam changed to suit? Never really thought about it.
Ciao

Yes, you are right, of course. I had been looking at the tractor version pictures, and wondered if they were the one with the opposite rotation. When I saw the pictures of the one in Alabama, I thought, "Super Lario".  ;D I'm not planning on flying it.. I have enough airplane projects to keep me busy until I'm 100.. ;D
Yes, apparently these heads can be turned around.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on October 29, 2013, 05:04:51 PM
Ippogrifo.  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2013, 05:09:24 PM
Ippogrifo.  ;-T

Super Lario..  ;D we don't need no steenkin monoshock.. Tonti rules!  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on October 29, 2013, 05:21:13 PM
Thanks, Paul! I was hoping GuzziDiag would talk to it. Great news.

yes guzzidiag will talk t it, but you can't program it, the p8 has a chip that can be changed. So if you don't like the program, you need to find someone with an eprom reader/ burner to read it, then you can change it in tunerpro and burn the contents to a new chip.

But leaving the injection on it, will give new problems where to fit the parts. I would start with carbs to keep it simple.

For injection the 15m ecu is a better choice because it's small. But that needs an other wheel for the pickup, I suppose it's ready available from never v7/nevada.
And the 15m can be programmed.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on October 29, 2013, 05:37:27 PM
Can Guzzi heads be turned around and swapped to the opposite side and the cam changed to suit?
Big block, turned heads.
(http://www.jovernomoto.it/immagini/5.jpg)

Turned heads and turbocharged, to be installed on a helicopter.
(http://www.creas-it.it/images/motoreguzzi.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 30, 2013, 06:49:12 AM
The guy was going to put it on an ultra light aircraft. I think this is where he got stopped.  :o Hopefully, they aren't all needed.. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/IMG_20131029_185331_466_zpsc8f08e4d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/IMG_20131029_185331_466_zpsc8f08e4d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on October 30, 2013, 07:32:02 AM
yes guzzidiag will talk t it, but you can't program it, the p8 has a chip that can be changed. So if you don't like the program, you need to find someone with an eprom reader/ burner to read it, then you can change it in tunerpro and burn the contents to a new chip.

But leaving the injection on it, will give new problems where to fit the parts. I would start with carbs to keep it simple.

For injection the 15m ecu is a better choice because it's small. But that needs an other wheel for the pickup, I suppose it's ready available from never v7/nevada.
And the 15m can be programmed.


Could he still download the map with GuzziDiag, even if he can't write back to it? At least if he could download it, he could then convert it with TunerPro since he could look at the tables... and then make a modified map for a 15m if he were to use that setup from a modern smallblock.

-Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on October 30, 2013, 12:56:50 PM
Super Lario..  ;D we don't need no steenkin monoshock.. Tonti rules!  :BEER:

Here's a close cousin from my workshop - the V75/4 :)  It would pep up the Lario as well ;)

(https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/218150_327542330674256_49063344_n.jpg)

...and do nicely in a plane, seems like this one is turned - exhaust is reversed :)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/283076_328168920611597_188639218_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 04, 2013, 12:10:18 PM
Well, after considerable deliberation, I decided *someone* should rescue this Guzzi drone engine, and it might as well be me.  ;D I talked to the owner for a while on the phone, although there was a serious language barrier. He speaks southern Alabamaian.  ;D :BEER: I mean, I've talked to Leafman, but....
At any rate, Dorcia and I put a growler of Flat 12 Bleeding Heart IPA in the cooler (gotta have supplies) and headed to the back woods of Alabama, a 12 hour drive. The first problem was that my GPS wouldn't find his address, nor would Google, Mapquest, etc. He (Chris) said, No problem.. just get to the town of Union Springs, take 29 south, turn left on.. well you get the picture. Once I came to Union creek Baptist Church on the rat  ;D, go down the hill, and he'd be on the left. Cant miss it. You've heard that one before??
Well, once we turned left, there was a Baptist church all right, but it wasn't Union Creek. I searched the GPS for Baptist churches. You won't believe how many there are in a 25 mile radius of Union Springs. No problem, we'll just call him. No cell service.  ;D ;D It's getting dark, and I'm getting frustrated. Decided the only thing to do was continue on down the road. After miles of tree lined winding apparently deserted country (gorgeous, by the way) we came around a corner and there was Indian creek Baptist church. To my ear, Indian Creek sounded like Union creek in Alabamaian.  ;D ;D
At any rate, we managed to converse with sign language,  ;D drag the engine out of his shed, and Wowzaa! This sucker looks nice. He got his son, who could have been a left tackle in the NFL to help load it. Uh.. he just picked it up and put it in the van.  :o  ;-T
It's dark by now, so we headed back to Montgomery, where I'd snagged a 3 star hotel for 56 bux (Guzzi content) via Hotwire.  ;-T plus hotel tax, entertainment tax, procurement tax, tax tax, etc.  ;D Still, the nicest $56 place we've ever stayed.
Opened our growler and partied down. :BEER:
Drove all day yesterday, and arrived safe and sound just in time to watch the Colts win with Luck's 10th 4th quarter comeback. Life is good...
Just unloaded the box..
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7318/10674072535_669df65d72_m.jpg)
Bet you haven't seen one of these..
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2856/10674147874_c5b04b5ea1_m.jpg)
My camera is in transit from Wisconsin. Detailed pictures to follow. Many familiar parts. Some not familiar at all, but it's a *very* well done aircraft conversion. I'm having mixed emotions about it. Seems a shame not to put it in an airplane, but that is a really major proposition. It would make a killer Lario powerplant.
Dorcia said, "We could move the coffee table out, and mount a glass top to the exhaust stacks for a coffee table while you are deciding what to do with it.."  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Sasquatch Jim on November 04, 2013, 12:18:58 PM
  Why not just get a drone to put it in?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: cdkrall on November 04, 2013, 12:36:13 PM
small-block Morgan repro...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on November 04, 2013, 12:37:59 PM
Quote
Dorcia said, "We could move the coffee table out, and mount a glass top to the exhaust stacks for a coffee table while you are deciding what to do with it.."  

Can't argue with that. I happen to have a couple extra glass tops if you need one.  ;-T

Good looking box too. Given any thought about adapting it to a tail rack?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: gearman on November 04, 2013, 12:41:26 PM
We have already payed for it at least once.I like the private drone idea.There are some people I would like to take out. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on November 04, 2013, 12:44:22 PM
OOOOOoooo yeah. It's about to begin. Chuck to the rescue.  ;-T Making Guzzi history, one Aero engine at a time.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on November 04, 2013, 12:58:01 PM
We have already payed for it at least once.I like the private drone idea.There are some people I would like to take out. ;D

That would be a real eye catcher at any RC airport.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rodekyll on November 04, 2013, 01:19:18 PM
Put it in a boat.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jas67 on November 04, 2013, 01:20:44 PM
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2856/10674147874_c5b04b5ea1_m.jpg)
It would make a killer Lario powerplant.

Or a V7 Racer powerplant.

Maybe put it in a V50, and get some V35 badges for it, and make a sleeper bike.

Whatever you put it in, definitely start a build thread.   :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on November 04, 2013, 01:30:06 PM
Is it a conversion or the Aero mill from the Hunter UAV?

It's the Jen-you-wine real deal, Hunter UAV Aero mill with 2v Hemi heads and pistons!  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: leafman60 on November 04, 2013, 01:32:13 PM
That's a cool-looking mill !  What is the story on it?  Why/how did the guy have it?

I am very familiar with Union Springs.  That's old cotton-farming and timber country.  I wouldn't expect to find a Guzzi airplane engine there.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: flangeman_70 on November 04, 2013, 02:45:04 PM
Couldn't help but notice the eagle on the rocker cover, are they looking where they're going or where they've been?  ;D
If they're looking one each way, then wouldn't it tend to want to fly in circles  ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 04, 2013, 03:10:57 PM
That's a cool-looking mill !  What is the story on it?  Why/how did the guy have it?

I am very familiar with Union Springs.  That's old cotton-farming and timber country.  I wouldn't expect to find a Guzzi airplane engine there.

His uncle works at the military base, and bought 2 of them Mil surplus. (Probably at pennies on the pound)  ;D This guy was planning on putting it on a 2 place very light airplane. His wife thinks differently.. :wife:
He has built 3 ultra lights and flown them for years.. told me of an engine failure (surprise surprise) of a Rotax 2 stroke on one of them where he managed to get it down on a road between the (really tall) trees in that area. A plug wire had fallen off and grounded out the magneto.  ::) He put it back and took off on that same road with a buddy that is a state trooper blocking traffic on a nearby curve.  ;D
Yes, we saw some cotton. I loved what little we saw of Alabama, other than the language difficulty of course,  ;)  it was the first time we'd been off of I 65 before.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Sasquatch Jim on November 04, 2013, 03:12:52 PM
  As a drone it would really be an attention grabber at campouts.  You could send it on ahead to reserve your favorite
  tent site.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on November 04, 2013, 03:13:49 PM
That's going to be a really interesting project. How many valves does it actually have? Four or eight?

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 04, 2013, 03:18:28 PM
That's going to be a really interesting project. How many valves does it actually have? Four or eight?

Pete

4 valves, Pete. They're big, though.. and it has hemi heads. It's rated at 63hp.. supposedly this is the Ippo engine.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: handyandy on November 04, 2013, 05:08:37 PM
Chuck, Doyou have a prop that would bolt to it. I can bring over some 2x4s over and we could see what you really have. Maybe even screw it to a wagon.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on November 04, 2013, 05:08:52 PM
that would be some fast V7 Racer
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on November 04, 2013, 05:19:34 PM
Go Kart  :D
Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on November 04, 2013, 05:23:28 PM
Triumph's Thruxton has an 865cc engine and makes 68hp (bhp supposedly). It weighs just over 500lbs.

Imagine if Guzzi put the Aero/Hemi engine in. It was claimed to be a 750cc engine that makes 63hp (bhp? No wheel to turn on a drone...)

Thruxton ~500lbs 68hp
V7 Hemi ~400lbs 63hp

I think it would put the "The Guzzi needs 10 more hp" claim to rest, and with modern tuning you could probably get more than 63hp out of it...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mtiberio on November 04, 2013, 05:30:26 PM
 Nice find. I hope the aero motor has power characteristics suitable to m/c. They are usually tuned for constant rpm running.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Tom on November 04, 2013, 05:31:50 PM
AX-2 backpack hot air balloon.  ;D ;D ;D Probably power a AX-3 hot air blimp. ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: guzzisteve on November 04, 2013, 05:55:32 PM
Put it in a boat.
With a pusher prop, and a seat w/steering wheel, or on a set of floats.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on November 04, 2013, 06:01:40 PM
Steve is on to something . A friend's dad has a "flying" boat from the 70s (we think) , kind of a lifting body design . Has a tunnel on the back for the prop , and if memory serves , a stick control . Of course I ain't flying it  ;D
Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on November 04, 2013, 06:04:54 PM
Put it in a boat.

You know, that's interesting.  I have an 8-foot 3-point hydroplane with an 18 hp Evinrude that my dad and I built when I was about 12 or 13.  Many times I've thought about converting it to an inboard and putting a spare motorcycle engine in it, but the airflow the wrong way complicated my daydreams.  Now a Guzzi engine...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 04, 2013, 06:39:14 PM
Steve is on to something . A friend's dad has a "flying" boat from the 70s (we think) , kind of a lifting body design . Has a tunnel on the back for the prop , and if memory serves , a stick control . Of course I ain't flying it  ;D
Dusty

There is one of those at the Antique Airplane Association museum in Blakesburg, Ia. Flys in ground effect at high speed over water.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 04, 2013, 06:40:23 PM
that would be some fast V7 Racer

If it goes in a motorcycle.. realistically, it probably will.. it'll be the Lario.  ~; ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on November 04, 2013, 06:46:15 PM
There is one of those at the Antique Airplane Association museum in Blakesburg, Ia. Flys in ground effect at high speed over water.
So he does not have the only one  8)
Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 04, 2013, 06:55:16 PM
Nice find. I hope the aero motor has power characteristics suitable to m/c. They are usually tuned for constant rpm running.

There are more questions than answers so far.  ;D It looks like a P8 computer and pretty standard stuff for the fuel injection. There are two versions, a tractor (Guzzi content) and a pusher. This one is a pusher. It looks to me that the cam will be normal rotation from the way the engine is built. The cylinders are turned around on the tractor version. *Assuming* it's a normal Targa cam, I'd bet it is standard Guzzi stuff. It's rated at 5500 rpm cruise, *I think*. Fun stuff... ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 04, 2013, 07:17:44 PM
Yep, sure looks like the Ippogrifo valve cover..
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vZgPQ2APTBQ/UA4vbgjtjVI/AAAAAAAAALc/37boSrxqEE8/s1600/105737075_59Lf9-M.jpeg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rodekyll on November 04, 2013, 08:10:53 PM
With a pusher prop, and a seat w/steering wheel, or on a set of floats.

I was thinking inboard with the gear reduction going into a f/w gearbox and shaft back to a screw.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on November 04, 2013, 08:21:01 PM
Merged with the original thread, for context.

Good job Chuck!   ;-T

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Arizona Wayne on November 04, 2013, 09:03:12 PM
I remember seeing a video of a boat propelled by a small block Guzzi motor kind of like a swamp boat(pusher) setup pull in @ Lake Como some time in the past.  ???
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on November 05, 2013, 12:59:49 AM
If it goes in a motorcycle.. realistically, it probably will.. it'll be the Lario.  ~; ;D

Are you going to build/buy an additional Lario, or stick it on the one you have? :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 05, 2013, 06:07:14 AM
Are you going to build/buy an additional Lario, or stick it on the one you have? :)

Well, if I could find a blown up low mileage Lario.. cheap.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on November 05, 2013, 06:44:09 AM
Well, if I could find a blown up low mileage Lario.. cheap.. ;D

Good idea, then you would have spare Lario engine parts, if not too blownup  ;D (hard to come by these days) and a setup for the Hunter mill  ;-T

Time to start a project thread ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on November 05, 2013, 08:52:01 AM
Well, if I could find a blown up low mileage Lario.. cheap.. ;D

You could pick up a used, low-mileage V7 Classic!    ~;

It's what the engine deserves!   ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on November 05, 2013, 09:53:50 AM
Museum in Mandello would be the rightful place, but I have never heard anyone give any info as to its whereabouts...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on November 05, 2013, 10:56:45 AM
I wonder what ever became of that Ippogrifo prototype.

Termites.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 05, 2013, 10:57:43 AM
Termites.

 ;D ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 05, 2013, 12:43:38 PM
It it was in a plane there should exist a lot of documentation to the engine, somewhere...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Pancake on November 05, 2013, 04:46:57 PM
If somebody bought the engine in Alabama, they should disassemble it and get those individual parts scanned... that way they would have a 3D backup of each piece, could make replacement parts if necessary, and maybe they could share that information with other small block owners so they could make their own "hemi" small blocks!  ;-T

That would be an awesome idea.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 05, 2013, 05:01:29 PM
It it was in a plane there should exist a lot of documentation to the engine, somewhere...

Normally, when you have something military, and find "the book" you're golden. More information than you really want to know.  ;D I spent an hour or two searching the net with no joy today. I'm in the midst of another project right now, so it's not an emergency, or anything..  ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on November 05, 2013, 05:45:11 PM
usually no records from military aircraft surplused to public. 

you might get "as of data" i.e., hours on the engine (to determine when next maintenance is due) or essential data for whole aircraft sale to determine what time when critical inspections can be scheduled. 

there is a reason why the records are purged.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on November 05, 2013, 05:54:50 PM
That would be an awesome idea.

I've found a few things on reproducing things from CAD and whatnot... but I'm a newbie at all of this. :D

http://www.zcorp.com/en/Solutions/Castings--Patterns--Molds/spage.aspx (http://www.zcorp.com/en/Solutions/Castings--Patterns--Molds/spage.aspx)

http://www.laserdesign.com/project_news/401/ (http://www.laserdesign.com/project_news/401/)

Though as mentioned earlier in this thread, outside measurements and measurements of the valves and their guides, etc. can probable provide most of the data needed to 3D model the heads, without the expense of 3D Laser Scanning...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 05, 2013, 06:23:00 PM
usually no records from military aircraft surplused to public. 

you might get "as of data" i.e., hours on the engine (to determine when next maintenance is due) or essential data for whole aircraft sale to determine what time when critical inspections can be scheduled. 

there is a reason why the records are purged.

It's new...<shrug>

I fool with antique airplanes, and the maintenance manuals for them are wonderful. For instance if you have a WW2 L something, there are parts lists, rigging data, etc. until who tied the pup. I haven't found *anything* on the drone powerplant, yet.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on November 05, 2013, 09:42:57 PM
It's new...<shrug>

I fool with antique airplanes, and the maintenance manuals for them are wonderful. For instance if you have a WW2 L something, there are parts lists, rigging data, etc. until who tied the pup. I haven't found *anything* on the drone powerplant, yet.

The Tech Orders likely aren't available to the public (unless they are commercial manuals)- although the repair is contracted.  The next step would be OEM, not sure who is considered OEM/design integrator.  Italian engine, Israel design, US support, unk manufacture.  

I know the Army program office was in (Redstone) Huntsville AL and Northrop Grumman (Sierra Vista, AZ &  Fort Huachuca) still has the support contract.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on November 06, 2013, 10:45:39 AM
  as mentioned earlier in this thread, outside measurements and measurements of the valves and their guides, etc. can probable provide most of the data needed to 3D model the heads, without the expense of 3D Laser Scanning...

I'd put money on standard Guzzi parts being inside the Ippo Aero engine.  Valves/Guides/crank/bearings/etc.

I'll bet they used as few proprietary parts as possible to build the thing.  Heads/Valve Covers/Pistons.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 06, 2013, 10:52:16 AM
I'd put money on standard Guzzi parts being inside the Ippo Aero engine.  Valves/Guides/crank/bearings/etc.

I'll bet they used as few proprietary parts as possible to build the thing.  Heads/Valve Covers/Pistons.

Me, too.
Here are a few detail pix. I'll have to finish my current project before seriously looking at this one.
Familiar looking stuff..
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/10710451555_0229b99867_c.jpg)
Unfortunately, I don't see any way of using the injection on a bike.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/10710715423_96124ed3b4_c.jpg)
Elegant breather box and exhaust underneath.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2857/10710520664_b5a9bf2aff_c.jpg)
More familiar looking stuff..note the simple way of keeping the ignition lead attached.  ;D
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3778/10710514764_4e4afb7c78_c.jpg)
There was a lid with a couple of screws in it. Under that was a very nice oil cooler and lines
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5502/10710445095_8117c71d98_c.jpg)
That'll do it for right now. I'll have to get it out of the box for more details. Before that, I need to finish up this project once and for all.. ;D I hope. Some assembly required..
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2856/10710528926_7104797132_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on November 06, 2013, 10:57:22 AM
I'd agree with you Rock, except there was probably some change data from design until fielding.  The risk is whether affected parts effect form, fit or function and finding replacements isn't a lengthy trial and error process.  But still, it's just another Guzzi variant.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on November 06, 2013, 03:59:06 PM
His uncle works at the military base, and bought 2 of them Mil surplus. (Probably at pennies on the pound)  ;D This guy was planning on putting it on a 2 place very light airplane. His wife thinks differently.. :wife:
He has built 3 ultra lights and flown them for years.. told me of an engine failure (surprise surprise) of a Rotax 2 stroke on one of them where he managed to get it down on a road between the (really tall) trees in that area. A plug wire had fallen off and grounded out the magneto.  ::) He put it back and took off on that same road with a buddy that is a state trooper blocking traffic on a nearby curve.  ;D
Yes, we saw some cotton. I loved what little we saw of Alabama, other than the language difficulty of course,  ;)  it was the first time we'd been off of I 65 before.
What was that I was saying about single ignition systems Chuck:)
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 06, 2013, 04:23:03 PM
What was that I was saying about single ignition systems Chuck:)
Ciao


Friends don't let friends fly two strokes.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue (more pix)
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 12, 2014, 11:02:24 AM
Well, while the cnc is cranking out diffuser halves for a powder coater.. (they're not really diffusers, we just call them that to confuse the Chinese)  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/001_zpsb533e354.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/001_zpsb533e354.jpg.html)
It takes a while to bump out these 3D cavities, so... time to start looking a little more seriously at the Aero engine. Mounting it on my ancient home made engine stand.. (I used to build hot rod engines in a past life) and taking the box away.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/002_zps3d7710a3.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/002_zps3d7710a3.jpg.html)
They apparently built more of these than I expected..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/003_zpsede4f4ff.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/003_zpsede4f4ff.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/004_zps22ef49f3.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/004_zps22ef49f3.jpg.html)

This is obviously a gear reduction for the prop drive. I wonder if they would happen to be the right gears for a normal Guzzi? ;D Probably not..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/005_zps9f8e76cc.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/005_zps9f8e76cc.jpg.html)
I'll bet that with a battery it could be made to run.. ;D :BEER: but down that path lies madness..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/006_zps7c2b9e1c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/006_zps7c2b9e1c.jpg.html)
One of the things that was puzzling me as it sat in the box was two cam sensors..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/009_zps7f5d8dfa.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/009_zps7f5d8dfa.jpg.html)
At least the whole thing is just held on by a nut. I'll bet I can rig up a Dyna S or maybe the CS5 ignition on the end.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/008_zpsbe046eed.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/008_zpsbe046eed.jpg.html)
Luigi has some new job skills, and he's good at it. Safety wiring..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/010_zps41797e77.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/010_zps41797e77.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/011_zps41d4756c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/011_zps41d4756c.jpg.html)
Genuine Guzzi deep sump spacer..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/013_zps76cae59f.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/013_zps76cae59f.jpg.html)
Complete with oil cooler inlet and outlet. Probably a finger screen behind the cap screw.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/014_zpsac86133c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/014_zpsac86133c.jpg.html)
Good stuff, this.. ;-T That's all for now. I'll never get this stupid job done if I don't stay at it..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on October 19, 2014, 05:05:48 AM
Never seen so many cool pic's of a hunter/Ippo mill before, thanks Chuck! ;-T
Title: Re: Re: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on October 19, 2014, 10:25:21 AM
Never seen so many cool pic's of a hunter/Ippo mill before, thanks Chuck! ;-T
+1
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rodekyll on October 20, 2014, 11:22:40 PM
The two sensors might be for redundant ignition.  In the air that's a good thing.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 21, 2014, 05:53:47 AM
The two sensors might be for redundant ignition.  In the air that's a good thing.

It's all straight mid 90s Guzzi stuff. I'm guessing the crank and cam sensors? Single ignition. Unless I come up with a cheap injected small block as a donor, I'll just put carbs and mechanical ignition on it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: leafman60 on October 21, 2014, 07:57:29 AM
Chuck, do you have a frame to transplant it into?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on October 21, 2014, 08:19:13 AM
No.., that's what he's looking fit is a frame. He would like a Lario frame for small Tonti reasons.  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 21, 2014, 08:35:19 AM
As much as I hate to.. I'm having a good time with the 8 valve and Iceblue's valves.. when the time comes, I'll use the long block from the Aero engine and the rest of the pieces from the Lario engine and put it into the Lario. I've decided that what I don't need is another motorcycle to maintain, license, insure, etc. Unfortunately, it looks to me with some rudimentary measuring that the Lario "wings" won't fit, and the chin fairing for sure won't fit. That takes away some of the styling cues of the Lario that I really like.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on October 21, 2014, 08:42:46 AM
As much as I hate to.. I'm having a good time with the 8 valve and Iceblue's valves.. when the time comes, I'll use the long block from the Aero engine and the rest of the pieces from the Lario engine and put it into the Lario. I've decided that what I don't need is another motorcycle to maintain, license, insure, etc. Unfortunately, it looks to me with some rudimentary measuring that the Lario "wings" won't fit, and the chin fairing for sure won't fit. That takes away some of the styling cues of the Lario that I really like.

Ah... just cafe it Chuck. Better yet, make it a bobber.  :P
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 21, 2014, 08:45:22 AM
Ah... just cafe it Chuck. Better yet, make it a bobber.  :P

Uhh, won't happen.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on October 28, 2014, 12:50:22 AM
As much as I hate to.. I'm having a good time with the 8 valve and Iceblue's valves.. when the time comes, I'll use the long block from the Aero engine and the rest of the pieces from the Lario engine and put it into the Lario. I've decided that what I don't need is another motorcycle to maintain, license, insure, etc. Unfortunately, it looks to me with some rudimentary measuring that the Lario "wings" won't fit, and the chin fairing for sure won't fit. That takes away some of the styling cues of the Lario that I really like.

Belgium solved the multiple vehicle issue. The license plate and insurance follows the owner, so you can actually move the license plate between vehicles as longs as they are the same class of vehicle and they are road worthy, as I understand their system. Smart - and makes sense, you can only ride/drive one vehicle at the time.

Some one from Belgium please straighten me out in case I'm off the wall here  :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on October 28, 2014, 10:38:46 AM
To flip the heads around that would also mean the exhaust cam is now the inlet cam.
But if you run it backwards the valves would open in the right order
Flip the final drive and gearbox over to get the right rotation.
Now if you can just figure out the oil pump.
 :bike   :+=copcar
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kckershovel on October 28, 2014, 07:26:23 PM
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/mcy/4735898464.html

Hey Chuck do you want to go in half on these? I figure the blue v50 would be a good aero mill swap candidate. I want parts off of the black one for my project. Let me know if you are interested. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 28, 2014, 07:40:23 PM
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/mcy/4735898464.html

Hey Chuck do you want to go in half on these? I figure the blue v50 would be a good aero mill swap candidate. I want parts off of the black one for my project. Let me know if you are interested. 

Sorry. I would have been interested a few days ago, but a lister just offered me his pretty decent V65 for free. (Guzzi content) He thinks.. as I do.. that the aero engine project needs to get moving. Naturally, I just couldn't say thanks for the fish, take it and leave.. so maybe when I'm done playing with it he can have it back.  ;D Or maybe we can make it a joint project.  :o Always have like those..   ;)
Right now, Dorcia is battling some health issues..  :( so projects are on the back burner. We'll know more before long.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Stormtruck2 on October 28, 2014, 07:49:01 PM
We are keeping Dorcia in our prayers that what ever the problems may be, that they be minor and easy to rectify.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kckershovel on October 28, 2014, 09:34:03 PM
I hope things work out for the two of you. I wish for positive news. I'm glad you found a vessel for the aero motor even if it is on hold for the moment. Keep in touch.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on October 28, 2014, 10:42:11 PM
best wishes to Dorcia and you. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2014, 05:28:42 AM
We are keeping Dorcia in our prayers that what ever the problems may be, that they be minor and easy to rectify.

Thanks, Matt. She has breast cancer. I've always said that if you look for problems on an old machine you'll find them.  ;) Probably the same with people. When they were checking out the cancer, they found a spot on her lung. (!) Fortunately, it was benign, but when checking out the spot on her lung, found an aneurysm. (!) Still trying to get into a cardiologist to check that out this week. Need to find out how much that will affect the surgery. Oh. BTW, she had an abscess from an old root canal, and had to get that cleared up before surgery, too. Did that yesterday.
She's still upbeat, but it's just been one thing after another... :P
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kckershovel on October 29, 2014, 09:45:42 AM
    I keep trying to type something about a restoration or tune up but everything I type sounds insensitive or worse. Just know I  have an understanding of what you are going through having 3 of my close family (grandmother,mother and mother in law) All fight the big C in the last few years. I look forward to seeing the two of you after all this is past and things are more back to normal. Hopefully we can go on a ride in the spring. Let me know if you want a hand with anything or someone to chat and wrench with. I'm just up the road and have plenty of free time. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2014, 09:50:38 AM
Thanks, Nathan..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 15, 2014, 02:37:52 PM
Started having a look at the Aero engine.. tagging various stuff. I had visions of hooking up a battery and fuel pump, making a test club out of Mouser's duff prop, and running it, but had an attack of common sense.  ;D All I'd be doing is wasting time, and I don't want to spend all Winter on this project. Looking at the color of my hair  ::) I need to get started on my last airplane project sooner, rather than later..  ;D
So, let's get at this.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps2165ef35.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps2165ef35.jpg.html)


However, I don't know what this is..I've never fooled with the early Guzzi computer stuff
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps9698499f.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps9698499f.jpg.html)
Likewise this.. I'm *guessing* it is an absolute pressure sender?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps0f8b92d7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps0f8b92d7.jpg.html)
Here's how they picked up oil temp.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/007_zps2ffee360.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/007_zps2ffee360.jpg.html)
The redrive unit is pretty elegant. Doesn't weigh squat. *Somebody* that plays with ultralight airplanes wants this..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/005_zpsd8df4076.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/005_zpsd8df4076.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/006_zps7795ede9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/006_zps7795ede9.jpg.html)
Propellers are a very difficult load on redrives. Many have tried with blown up gears as a result. Here's Guzzi's engineering solution.. ;-T
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zps86c9996b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zps86c9996b.jpg.html)
I'll continue on the tear down after a bit. By the way, the plugs are a Bosch fine wire W3Cs.. ever heard of them? Doesn't ring a bell with me..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mark West on November 15, 2014, 03:15:11 PM
The blue component appears to be an analog pressure sensor. 100Kpa (kilopascals) would be 1 Bar or ~14.5PSI. I would guess that is the max scale it can read. Seems to be many variations of the same basic part

http://www.competitionsystems.co.uk/uploads/mediacentre/20100524023901-PRT02_03_06.pdf (http://www.competitionsystems.co.uk/uploads/mediacentre/20100524023901-PRT02_03_06.pdf)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 15, 2014, 04:09:25 PM
The blue component appears to be an analog pressure sensor. 100Kpa (kilopascals) would be 1 Bar or ~14.5PSI. I would guess that is the max scale it can read. Seems to be many variations of the same basic part

http://www.competitionsystems.co.uk/uploads/mediacentre/20100524023901-PRT02_03_06.pdf (http://www.competitionsystems.co.uk/uploads/mediacentre/20100524023901-PRT02_03_06.pdf)

Thanks for that, Mark. I thought maybe that was what it was. I'll tag it anyway in case someone wants to fool with this stuff some day. There's no way that the harness could be used in a motorcycle, though.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: organfixsing on November 15, 2014, 04:50:48 PM
G'day Chuck
Bosch W3C are equivalent to NGK B9ES which equates to 14mm thread, 3/4" reach, quite clod (2 = hot, 11= cold),2.5mm dia centre electrode. There are lots of equivalents in many brands.

Interesting project, wish you well in this. I hope Dorcia has a good outcome after all the hassles you are both going through.

Cheers
Brian  :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 15, 2014, 05:06:13 PM
G'day Chuck
Bosch W3C are equivalent to NGK B9ES which equates to 14mm thread, 3/4" reach, quite clod (2 = hot, 11= cold),2.5mm dia centre electrode. There are lots of equivalents in many brands.

Interesting project, wish you well in this. I hope Dorcia has a good outcome after all the hassles you are both going through.

Cheers
Brian  :)
G'day to you, Brian.  ;D Thanks. Airplane engines run really hard, so that may be why it is a clod one.  ;D  Someone should do a brazillion dollar study on why old farts left and right fingers suddenly change sides. <shrug> Beats me, but I do it all the itme.  ;D
I'll measure it tomorrow, but I'm sure that the electrode on this one is less than 2.5mm by eyeball measurement , though.
And seriously, thanks for hte  ::) well wishes. We'll know a lot more Dec. 9.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 16, 2014, 04:23:00 AM
Well Chuck, question is, does the center engine piece fit the front cover from a v65, or as last resort, can the cylinders and crank get transplantated on to motorcycle engine. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 16, 2014, 05:42:19 AM
Well Chuck, question is, does the center engine piece fit the front cover from a v65, or as last resort, can the cylinders and crank get transplantated on to motorcycle engine. 

Well, everything *appears* to be stock Guzzi, but we won't actually know for a bit. Stay tuned..don't touch that dial.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on November 16, 2014, 09:46:27 AM
Well, everything *appears* to be stock Guzzi, but we won't actually know for a bit. Stay tuned..don't touch that dial.  ;D

 :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 16, 2014, 02:05:35 PM
As I mentioned before, Luigi has learned to safety fasteners, and he's darn good at it. I've been in the pits at motorcycle races, and most don't have a clue about safety wiring.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps05c64818.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps05c64818.jpg.html)
Even the electrical connections are safetied. This is some heavy thread that is much like the stuff aircraft wiring used to be cabled up with..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps7456e78b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps7456e78b.jpg.html)
More parts is parts. The throttle bodies are 37 mm btw. I'm thinking 36 mm carbs ought to be ok.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-005_zps34889457.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-005_zps34889457.jpg.html)
The last of the sensors are tagged, so we're ready to get the engine out of there.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zps5f504587.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zps5f504587.jpg.html)
Rolled the engine building bench back in the shop, brought in the cherry picker, hooked up some airplane tie down rope..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zps504dc098.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zps504dc098.jpg.html)
Loosened up the hardware..... and my timer went off. Gotta go into the house and stir the pot for dinner. Indiana MGNOC reps Andy and Mary are coming for dinner, and bringing a pair of 36 mm big block intakes. Maybe we'll see if they happen to fit after a bit..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 16, 2014, 03:33:42 PM
Uh oh.. first snag. Pulled the intake casting off.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zps283a42fc.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zps283a42fc.jpg.html)
The casting for 36s has a smaller bolt circle. I checked Rosie's, and just by scaling it seems to be too small, too. I wonder if the 750 Targa casting would fit this head? How about it, you guys from Yurp?? Any info?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-009_zps3539d189.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-009_zps3539d189.jpg.html)
I *can* make up a new flange, and weld it to the carb casting, but I'd rather just buy something if it's available..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 16, 2014, 05:14:09 PM
why not use the part you have with the engine, in the rubber will fit something
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 16, 2014, 06:08:11 PM
why not use the part you have with the engine, in the rubber will fit something

It goes straight back.. there's no way that the carbs would clear you legs.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 16, 2014, 06:14:00 PM
It goes straight back.. there's no way that the carbs would clear you legs.

Rotax uses curved rubbers and they fit Dellortos. Might be an idea. I can find a source if you'd like.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 16, 2014, 07:09:28 PM
It goes straight back.. there's no way that the carbs would clear you legs.

On BB engine straight manifolds with 36mm carbs quite common, you can tilt carb inward at top to get clearance for knees, worth dummying up on your Lario to check, straight is better if you can get away with it, angled filters easy
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2014, 11:29:23 AM
Rotax uses curved rubbers and they fit Dellortos. Might be an idea. I can find a source if you'd like.

Don't go to any trouble yet, Charlie.. Thanks!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2014, 11:31:28 AM
On BB engine straight manifolds with 36mm carbs quite common, you can tilt carb inward at top to get clearance for knees, worth dummying up on your Lario to check, straight is better if you can get away with it, angled filters easy

How many degrees from vertical can you go, roughly?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2014, 01:39:14 PM
Well if worse comes to worse.. I can always put it back together.  ;D :BEER:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps3ac981d8.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps3ac981d8.jpg.html)
Big hummer 55 amp Bosch alternator. Check out the kool cush drive.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpscf27b30b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpscf27b30b.jpg.html)
It's driven by these rubber inserts.  ;-T
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zpsbd6365f1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zpsbd6365f1.jpg.html)
Here's the timing gizmo that is bolted to the end of the cam. Equally spaced tits on the back, one on the front. I'm *assuming* the same as the crank and cam sensor on the old injection models.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zpse4e7f0e1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zpse4e7f0e1.jpg.html)
I always say buy the best tools you can afford. Back in the day, this is all I could afford, but it did and still does the job.  ::)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-005_zps205bf9b8.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-005_zps205bf9b8.jpg.html)
Someone say "Oh, yeah.. that's the way the crank nose on the injected small blocks look, and the stock alternator will bolt right up."
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zpsf8d47e12.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zpsf8d47e12.jpg.html)
Time to have a peek up her skirt. Back later with some small block porn..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 17, 2014, 02:16:25 PM
Looks like Guzzi made the engines, and Hunter or a subcontractor did the rest.  I've never had a smallblock but suppose they have the same generation alternator as the big blocks, and then the small nose will fit.

Did you get any parts manual with it or other documentation? 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on November 17, 2014, 02:40:34 PM
Looks like Guzzi made the engines, and Hunter or a subcontractor did the rest.  I've never had a smallblock but suppose they have the same generation alternator as the big blocks, and then the small nose will fit.

Did you get any parts manual with it or other documentation? 

Hunter (IAI RQ-5 Hunter) was the name of the drone.  The aircraft was developed by IAI and TRW (now part of Grumman).

 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2014, 03:34:18 PM
Looks like Guzzi made the engines, and Hunter or a subcontractor did the rest.  I've never had a smallblock but suppose they have the same generation alternator as the big blocks, and then the small nose will fit.

Did you get any parts manual with it or other documentation? 

Boy, I wish.. a fair amount of internet searching has turned up nothing. This certainly doesn't look like it will fit the Ducati alternator.. different taper and no keyway. Major bummer there.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on November 17, 2014, 03:37:39 PM
Stupid Question:  Why not leave the big Bosch alternator in place ?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2014, 03:49:11 PM
Stupid Question:  Why not leave the big Bosch alternator in place ?
I haven't measured, but I imagine the front wheel would hit it. Not to mention, it'd be seriously ugly.  ;D From what reading I've done on it from guys like Iceblue and Dogwalker, I had visions of it being made of mostly stock 750 Guzzi parts. Plug and play with a little tinkering. Maybe not.. more pix to follow. A stock Guzzi crank was certainly on my wish list.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2014, 04:14:22 PM
So, let's have a peek.. ;D
Uh oh, non standard oil filter.. a UFI 25-558-00. A quick search gives it on several sites, but nothing in 'Merican.  ;) That means that the spacer is not an add on. Probably. We'll pull the pan and have a look, anyway.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zps898df7d7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zps898df7d7.jpg.html)
Uh oh. My memory isn't terribly good, but the bottom half of the crankcase looks "different". It may be like the intake castings, they *look* similar.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zps941c96fe.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zps941c96fe.jpg.html)
At any rate, I'll not be able to do away with the spacer/oil cooler, as I'd hoped. What a Guzzi engine that's run on the street doesn't need is more cooling. ;D
Now, I'll have to find some shop manuals and do some measuring. Hopefully, I can still use the top end.<sigh>
I pulled a valve cover before coming in just for grins and checked the valve clearances. .008" and .010. Pretty much what you'd expect on an engine that is designed to run WFO all it's life..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 17, 2014, 04:16:19 PM
I can send you the workshop manual and parts list of the ie v7 engines, that has pictures from parts to compare. For generator the rank is there straight, not tappered. And looks longer then yours. Some people used small ducati racing alternators in cases like this. I see bottom engine is different too, where in almost center have the angled piece sticking out, thats not in the normal engine
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2014, 05:32:37 PM
I can send you the workshop manual and parts list of the ie v7 engines, that has pictures from parts to compare. For generator the rank is there straight, not tappered. And looks longer then yours. Some people used small ducati racing alternators in cases like this. I see bottom engine is different too, where in almost center have the angled piece sticking out, thats not in the normal engine

Right. That was my first clue after the non standard oil filter.  ;D Thanks, Paul.. but not yet. Let me delve a little deeper first. Interesting stuff...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 17, 2014, 06:51:41 PM
How many degrees from vertical can you go, roughly?

Not certain but I've been tipping them pretty much as far as physically possible since day 1 (36 years and counting !)
Concentric was Amal's term, theory being you don't run out of gas leaning into corners like a monobloc (remote chamber).
Of course there is a limit (upside down in a plane for instance) but you're only looking at a few degrees to clear knees, nothing like full lean, pegs on deck angle
Boy, I wish.. a fair amount of internet searching has turned up nothing. This certainly doesn't look like it will fit the Ducati alternator.. different taper and no keyway. Major bummer there.

Not the Bosch taper ? looks similar (early small block, Tonti BB pre 90's) no keyway on them


 

Oil Cooler could be bypassed with hose joining in and out ports to save any inside engineering

Keep it coming Chuck, this thing will be special.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2014, 07:06:36 PM
Quote
Keep it coming Chuck, this thing will be special.

Thanks for the encouragement, Martin. I'm a little down right now.. I will check out the Bosch taper.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on November 18, 2014, 04:00:20 AM
Uh oh. My memory isn't terribly good, but the bottom half of the crankcase looks "different". It may be like the intake castings, they *look* similar.
Uhmmm...
apart from the spacer, it still seems standard stuff to me.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/86/270185428_ee26616763.jpg)
(http://x.cloudsdata.net/1f/images/products/large/4e0349872c2cb_CARTER_MOTORE_8_.JPG)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: huub on November 18, 2014, 05:36:12 AM
looks like they fitted a spacer to be able to fit a oil cooler?
guzzi did the same when building the djerba off road bikes.

keep the pics coming , i am jealous, what a engine.
a 70 hp smallblock , that should be fun on the road...

hubert
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 18, 2014, 07:51:37 AM
Uhmmm...
apart from the spacer, it still seems standard stuff to me.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/86/270185428_ee26616763.jpg)
(http://x.cloudsdata.net/1f/images/products/large/4e0349872c2cb_CARTER_MOTORE_8_.JPG)

Ooh, those pictures are worth a thousand words. I've mentioned before that I'm *not* a Guzzi mechanic, and haven't had the bottom end of a small block apart before. When I didn't see what I expected, I jumped to conclusions.  ;D As they say in the NFL, "Upon further review" that crank taper just might be for the old Bosch alternator. That would make it even easier.  ;D Looking back through my Lario pictures, the end of the cam looks similar, too.. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on November 18, 2014, 09:24:43 AM
As they say in the NFL, "Upon further review" that crank taper just might be for the old Bosch alternator.
It seems probable.

(http://static.bakeca.it/immagini/c14/c14690511d8e7587ed8cb78dcdb90705.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on November 18, 2014, 11:30:35 AM
This is a neat thread.  Hemi heads for the V7, WTH Guzzi, what is the down side?  I'm missing something.

On the 36mm carbs, if gasket still fits, slot the holes.  Ruins the carbs, but.

I flew the "Eagle" ultralight out of Waco Texas, a few years ago (1979?).  It used a 250cc rotax upside down as a pusher, plug wire vibrated off one day.  I was plenty high, engine kept windmilling while I reached back and slapped the plug wire back on.  Lots of fields to put down a 30mph ultralight in the area, so no worries.

example of Eagle:
(http://www.lightsportaircraftpilot.com/eagle_XL_american_aerolites/images/eagle-xl/IMG_0194.JPG)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RayB on November 18, 2014, 03:27:27 PM
(http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps9698499f.jpg.html)

Chuck

This module with 7 pins looks exactly like the ICU-Ignition Control Unit, on my 82 Beemer. I'm sure that won't make you happy.
This same type ICU was used on 80's Volkswagen Jetta and other models. At least on the beemer it receives a signal from a hall effect sensor that operates in what we call a bean can. When the hall sensor sees a gap in the timing wheel it sends a signal to the ICU ( which is really just a signal amplifier ) that cuts the current to the coils to produce the spark

I don't know how that would help you with this engine but just sayin'
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on November 18, 2014, 03:31:35 PM
Has anyone ever been successful getting documentation from this website specified by Guzziology?

I cannot make heads or tails from it.

http://www.ncweb.it/default.asp (http://www.ncweb.it/default.asp)

Also, since Northrop owns the system now after purchase from TRW, they may have the guzzi documentation.
Think I am getting about as close to the classified stuff as I may.  

Contact info at bottom of the last news release on this link (upper right)
http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/MQ5BHunter/Pages/default.aspx (http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/MQ5BHunter/Pages/default.aspx)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 18, 2014, 06:50:56 PM
Has anyone ever been successful getting documentation from this website specified by Guzziology?

I cannot make heads or tails from it.

http://www.ncweb.it/default.asp (http://www.ncweb.it/default.asp)

Also, since Northrop owns the system now after purchase from TRW, they may have the guzzi documentation.
Think I am getting about as close to the classified stuff as I may.  

Contact info at bottom of the last news release on this link (upper right)
http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/MQ5BHunter/Pages/default.aspx (http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/MQ5BHunter/Pages/default.aspx)

Thanks for that. The info on the site is about the diesel Hunter, but I sent an email to them, anyway. Maybe something will come of it..or not.  ;D Didn't even have time to look at it today, but I'm cautiously optimistic, now.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on November 19, 2014, 02:58:01 AM
I flew the "Eagle" ultralight out of Waco Texas, a few years ago (1979?).  It used a 250cc rotax upside down as a pusher, plug wire vibrated off one day.  I was plenty high, engine kept windmilling while I reached back and slapped the plug wire back on.  Lots of fields to put down a 30mph ultralight in the area, so no worries.
(http://www.creasitalia.eu/images/gu-vola.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on November 19, 2014, 05:50:07 AM
I flew the weedhopper, John Chotia's 2 stroke engine.  Pretty simple compared to the above ^^^^.

(http://www.jc-24c.com/weedhopper/Welcome_files/shapeimage_2.png)

Looking at the trike above (posted by Dogwalker), reminds me of the day a young fellow showed up at my little country airport with a new trike and his hangglider.  He had started Baylor, moved from N.M. I believe and flew his hangglider there.  He wanted to keep flying so bought the trike.

Never flew it before and I had never seen one.  Gets it all together and takes off!  What a sight with the trike dangling all over the place while he wrestled with control.  Made a pattern and landed, never saw him again after that, but that was something to see.  Wished I had a video of that takeoff.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 19, 2014, 08:01:14 AM
Hey, a Weed chopper..  ;D Haven't seen one of those in a long time.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on November 19, 2014, 09:22:23 AM
Good to see that aero engine in detail!

I reckon that if you tried to build an Ippogrifo V7 replica, you could name your price ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 19, 2014, 11:08:29 AM
Good to see that aero engine in detail!

I reckon that if you tried to build an Ippogrifo V7 replica, you could name your price ;D

No doubt.. as long is was low, if I expected to sell it.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 19, 2014, 11:38:30 AM
Ok, I've officially decided to put it in the Beater Lario (tm).
Chad, The mayor of bbq graciously offered to *give* me his V65 as a donor bike  :o so I'd get my buns in gear.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/CA96DAD9-4ACF-4D71-80DA-E6A8067E8147-15132-0000114A8CA942EA_zpsaacb339b.jpg)

It would have been a great one to use, but.. as I've said before.. if you look for issues in an old machine, you *will* find them. I've already gone through the Lario from stem to stern, and would't hesitate to ride it across the country. That was documented in the Lario Rehab thread, and it took a fairly long time. I'm hoping that the engine swap project is shorter lived.
Thanks again, Chad! I certainly appreciate it. Gotta love the Guzzi community.. ;-T
So. The Lario was up in the Guzzi Garage, and it needs to come down to the shop. I *hate* to start up an air cooled engine without fully bringing it up to operating temperature, so I thought, "Oh, I'll just push it down there." There's snow covering the tall grass. The wind is blowing in my face at about 30 knots. Seriously. The 20 knot wind sock was standing straight out, and the tail was popping up and down. I get it down to the hanger apron which is ice covered  ::) and the wind starts blowing the bike (and me) sideways. Fortunately, I was able to get the kick stand down without either of us falling down.  ;D Have I mentioned it is ridiculously cold? About this time, I noticed that I was puffing and blowing like a steam engine. Thought, "You dumbass, that's how old farts meet the grim reaper." I'll remember that when I get old.. ~;  :BEER:
At any rate, I managed to get the hanger door up without it blowing off the tracks, and pushed it in.  ;)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps1caac477.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps1caac477.jpg.html)
Started boxing
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zps35bf9751.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zps35bf9751.jpg.html)
bagging
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zps4261642d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zps4261642d.jpg.html)
and organizing aero engine accessories in case some archaeologist wonders what they are some day..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-005_zpscd2d93be.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-005_zpscd2d93be.jpg.html)
Once I get this stuff stored, and the reloading press (gun content)  ;) off the workbench, we'll get started.

 
Title: Re:
Post by: Unkept on November 19, 2014, 11:59:43 AM
:) Now you won't have to split your time with the Lario and another small block!

Maybe mount the prop drive on the 4v mill and use the aero subframe to mount it on a wall for display?

Have fun!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on November 19, 2014, 12:03:41 PM
Yes Chuck!

Get

Your

Buns

In

Gear!

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2014, 10:57:04 AM
Buns engaged.. ;D
Alrighty, now! Time to start mixing and matching..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsc31ef26e.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsc31ef26e.jpg.html)
The transmission bolts right up. I'm *assuming* parts from the Lario clutch will fit in the Aero gizmo.  ;)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps280f4258.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps280f4258.jpg.html)
The crankshaft taper *is* for the old Bosch alternator. This will make mating the charging system with the Lario a no brainer..the kind I'm best at.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zpsc1036e11.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zpsc1036e11.jpg.html)
However, the nose of the cam is decidedly different from the old small block cam. I *could* fit up some kind of ignition, but I *really* want to use the original advance plate, and the mechanical tach drive. I love the old white face Veglias, especially the big ones.  ;D Somehow, I need to put the old style cam in the new engine. Looking through the old and new shop manuals, I can find no reference to cam stuff. Time to get on the horn to Ed, I think..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on November 21, 2014, 11:05:22 AM
 :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 21, 2014, 11:30:06 AM
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zpsc1036e11.jpg)[/URL]
However, the nose of the cam is decidedly different from the old small block cam. I *could* fit up some kind of ignition, but I *really* want to use the original advance plate, and the mechanical tach drive. I love the old white face Veglias, especially the big ones.  ;D Somehow, I need to put the old style cam in the new engine. Looking through the old and new shop manuals, I can find no reference to cam stuff. Time to get on the horn to Ed, I think..

Since there's no place to mount a "points plate" (or Dyna S, etc.) on that timing cover, maybe use the one off of the Lario engine or buy another small-block one? I'd bet a V65 (C or SP) cam might swap right in too, though whether it will be optimum for the hemi-heads is in question. Custom grind might be in the cards. Ed will be the best source for info. there.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2014, 11:37:32 AM
Since there's no place to mount a "points plate" (or Dyna S, etc.) on that timing cover, maybe use the one off of the Lario engine or buy another small-block one? I'd bet a V65 (C or SP) cam might swap right in too, though whether it will be optimum for the hemi-heads is in question. Custom grind might be in the cards. Ed will be the best source for info. there.

Oh, yeah.. I was planning on using the front accessory case from the Lario. I just stuck the rotor on to make sure the crank taper was the same. I've sent Ed an email.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 21, 2014, 12:45:32 PM
Chuck must it be a points ignition? Because when you use the sensors your have, you can use an electronic ignition with them. Ignitec( http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky ) from Tsjechia comes to mind, they have a small unit they can programm for any engine.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2014, 12:50:28 PM
Chuck must it be a points ignition? Because when you use the sensors your have, you can use an electronic ignition with them. Ignitec( http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky ) from Tsjechia comes to mind, they have a small unit they can programm for any engine.

It wouldn't *have* to use the original ignition, but I *really* like the big white faced Veglia tach, and it's strictly mechanical. I'd lose that..
Thanks for your input, though. I still may have to go that way..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 21, 2014, 03:29:14 PM
having to make a new cam just for the tach? It might be cheaper to get someone build an electronic in the white face housing. Like the internals of the daytona or sport 1100 tacho. Is that the tacho like the le mans 3 also has?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 21, 2014, 03:42:50 PM
having to make a new cam just for the tach?

Might not the "aero engine" need a different cam anyway? Cam profiles are likely optimized for full power operation at the expense of everything else.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2014, 03:54:41 PM
Might not the "aero engine" need a different cam anyway? Cam profiles are likely optimized for full power operation at the expense of everything else.

That wouldn't surprise me, but *I don't know.* All I've found out is it cruises at 5500 rpm in the drone. Apparently it is "different," though. It doesn't look like a V75 cam from the pictures I've seen, and definitely not an older small block cam.
Maybe a Megacycle V65 cam would do the job? Got one?  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 21, 2014, 05:44:37 PM
That wouldn't surprise me, but *I don't know.* All I've found out is it cruises at 5500 rpm in the drone. Apparently it is "different," though. It doesn't look like a V75 cam from the pictures I've seen, and definitely not an older small block cam.
Maybe a Megacycle V65 cam would do the job? Got one?  ;D

Why not run it with OE trigger and aftermarket box as paul suggested (my ECU in Oz makes these too with various curves), see how it runs first ?
Then, if not ideal, could be horrible at low revs but can't know till you try, take cam to grinder with a std V65 one work with him to get ideal cam profile on one with tacho drive
If it's perfect power delivery, get an electronic triggered white face tach, probably cheaper and way simpler.

On cam grinders, I had a customer who wanted more up top than my normal profile gives, we took dyno sheet to Clive, he drew new lines , ground a new cam, I fitted (and dialled it in).
New Dyno run exactly as he drew, robbed some mid range, stuck it on the top, customer happy.

Much better then guessing at a cam from another engine, if I had to guess at profile it would be from a BB but seriously cam grinders do this every day, no-one AFAIK has ever put one of these donks in a bike so without testing you really don't know what you're starting with.

And
I'm impatient, could be running in a week
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2014, 06:30:46 PM
Thanks for that, Martin.. I'll give it some consideration.
Quote
I'm impatient, could be running in a week
Not a chance. Don't have carbs sourced yet, not to mention an electronic magic box. And... with the aero engine front casting to use the stock pickup, the alternator and associated electronics would be hanging out in the breeze. Fine on an airplane but not so good on the ground.  ;)
I'm pretty patient.  ;D You've gotta remember that I took 12 years  :o to build an airplane. I want to get it running pretty soon, though. I"d like to get started on my last airplane project yet this winter.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 21, 2014, 06:59:45 PM
Thanks for that, Martin.. I'll give it some consideration.Not a chance. Don't have carbs sourced yet, not to mention an electronic magic box. And... with the aero engine front casting to use the stock pickup, the alternator and associated electronics would be hanging out in the breeze. Fine on an airplane but not so good on the ground.  ;)
I'm pretty patient.  ;D You've gotta remember that I took 12 years  :o to build an airplane. I want to get it running pretty soon, though. I"d like to get started on my last airplane project yet this winter.


Doesn't front cover from V65 above fit holes ?
Alloy ones of them available too on this page
http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Shnew=&Model=&ModelName=All+Models&Cat=ENA&CatName=Engines

plastic spacer behind it can be doubled up if you need more clearance for trigger
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2014, 07:32:03 PM
Ok, as long as we're killing time, lets show someone that randomly searches for "small block clutch" how to change out the clutch plate. It's ridiculously easy compared to a big block. No special tools involved.
Remove the 6 bolts that hold the clutch assembly together in a cross pattern. No need to warp things.. this is on the new engine, but you get the idea.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-012_zps63e7d9ff.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-012_zps63e7d9ff.jpg.html)
As the bolts get loose, the clutch plate will become loose. Just take the whole thing down. No springs falling out, special tools, etc.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zps14014cc1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zps14014cc1.jpg.html)
You *won't* need to mess with this, but the Aero engine didn't have the center piece that the clutch pushrod pushes against. It's held in by the Snap Ring From Hell.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-010_zps993b581e.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-010_zps993b581e.jpg.html)
After getting the SRFH out, a magnet will pull the center plate.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-011_zpsd8d46695.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-011_zpsd8d46695.jpg.html)
So, I put the center plate in the Aero engine since it's no longer going to be an Aero engine and fought the Snap Ring From Hell again. *You* can ignore this.  ;D
Clean the ring gear and pressure plate with lacquer thinner. Keep your greasy fingers off your new clutch plate.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-014_zpsca6ddacf.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-014_zpsca6ddacf.jpg.html)
Install the new plate, and lightly tighten the 6 screws. At this point, you can use your special Guzzi Clutch Assembly Tool, cleverly designed as a beater screwdriver to center the plate.  :o Eyeball *is* good enough. The human eye is very good at seeing concentric circles. That is how peep sights on a rifle work.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-015_zps72714a7e.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-015_zps72714a7e.jpg.html)
Just for grins, I measured the gap around the two pieces. It was within .002" of .115" all the way around. Plenty close enough for this kind of thing.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-017_zpsbdde153c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-017_zpsbdde153c.jpg.html)
Now. It takes 20 minutes for Locktite to cure, so you have 19 minutes.  ;D
Take out one bolt at a time, put some locktite on each.. a little dab will do ya, Joe.. ;) until you have some on each one, and run them in using a cross pattern with your ratchet wrench until they are snug.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-019_zps80ad0fb3.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-019_zps80ad0fb3.jpg.html)
Torque, using a cross pattern again, to 8 newton meters, then 10 NM. Bask in the glow of another job well done.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-018_zpsc24160c8.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-018_zpsc24160c8.jpg.html)
That's all there is to it. Small blocks are easy.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2014, 07:39:12 PM

Doesn't front cover from V65 above fit holes ?
Alloy ones of them available too on this page
http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Shnew=&Model=&ModelName=All+Models&Cat=ENA&CatName=Engines

plastic spacer behind it can be doubled up if you need more clearance for trigger

Yeah, it does, but the cam oil seal doesn't. I know.. no hill for a climber, and could no doubt source a custom oil seal. The Aero trigger is too wide to fit behind it, at any rate. By a lot. If you look back through the original pictures, it's shown.  I'm emailing back and forth with Milich as we speak trying to source stuff.  Patience is its own reward, they say.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2014, 07:46:45 PM
having to make a new cam just for the tach? It might be cheaper to get someone build an electronic in the white face housing. Like the internals of the daytona or sport 1100 tacho. Is that the tacho like the le mans 3 also has?
Sorry, Paul, I missed your question. Yes. Same tach and instrument cluster. It's a Guzzi, after all.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 21, 2014, 08:45:00 PM
Yeah, it does, but the cam oil seal doesn't. I know.. no hill for a climber, and could no doubt source a custom oil seal. The Aero trigger is too wide to fit behind it, at any rate. By a lot. If you look back through the original pictures, it's shown.  I'm emailing back and forth with Milich as we speak trying to source stuff.  Patience is its own reward, they say.. ;D



Misunderstanding
I meant the final alternator / ig cover, originally plastic
Keep the aero inside timing chest, cam seal ig trigger etc, just fit the bosch alternator and cover, this one
(http://www.valpolini.com/files/cache/5362619a2138dd7e7552783155b9f980.jpg)
2 or 3 spacers behind if depth of trigger an issue but looks to be inside inner case to me
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/009_zps7f5d8dfa.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Tazturtle on November 21, 2014, 09:00:30 PM
Good on you Chuck. You do the *best* interesting how-to threads!!!

Kurt
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 22, 2014, 03:36:11 AM
Chuck since you can CNC, you could make a thick gasket to fit the cover. It looks like the timing wheel you have ion the nose of the cam, is to mimic the cam sensor and flycwheel sensor the p7/p8 normaly uses, so then an ignition for the same setup should be easy. Other thing could be to read the eprom from your injection box them you get ignition curves. I'm shure there is someone with a reader anywhere in the USA on the board. The eprom is pretty simple. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 22, 2014, 07:10:35 AM
Good on you Chuck. You do the *best* interesting how-to threads!!!

Kurt

Thanks, Kurt.  ;D *real* mechanics don't have time to stop and take pictures. I'm doing it because when I search for how to do something on the small block I can't find much. There are quite a few things on the big block.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 22, 2014, 07:26:39 AM
Chuck since you can CNC, you could make a thick gasket to fit the cover. It looks like the timing wheel you have ion the nose of the cam, is to mimic the cam sensor and flycwheel sensor the p7/p8 normaly uses, so then an ignition for the same setup should be easy. Other thing could be to read the eprom from your injection box them you get ignition curves. I'm shure there is someone with a reader anywhere in the USA on the board. The eprom is pretty simple. 

Agreed, but since this is *not* a parts bin cam, I'm betting that a stock V65 cam would be better suited for a motorcycle. Airplane engines are normally tuned for maximum torque at cruising rpm. That is 5500-6000 rpm on this engine. Low end torque may (or may not) have been sacrificed to do this. At any rate, various cams are available for the V65, I can retain my mechanical tach drive, and Dyna S which I already have. Unless, of course when I open it up I find the case isn't compatible with the old Guzzi cam. Time will tell, and thanks again!

This project just slid to the back burner, so to speak. Our electric range just blew up last night, and we'll be switching to gas. If it isn't one thing, it's two..  ::)  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 22, 2014, 08:38:40 PM
Chuck since you can CNC, you could make a thick gasket to fit the cover. It looks like the timing wheel you have ion the nose of the cam, is to mimic the cam sensor and flycwheel sensor the p7/p8 normaly uses, so then an ignition for the same setup should be easy. Other thing could be to read the eprom from your injection box them you get ignition curves. I'm shure there is someone with a reader anywhere in the USA on the board. The eprom is pretty simple. 

No gasket needed, oil seal is behind cam trigger and alternator rotor, both are dry
This spacer goes between covers to get cooling airflow, cutting hole in top or  fitting two easy if trigger clearance is issue-- but looks ok in picture
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgN_s3DOhhE83qflAZ9f0hCSfHjeBUbkppSn0UlT0V0shhHsGBwWtC7ZM)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 23, 2014, 05:29:00 AM
No gasket needed, oil seal is behind cam trigger and alternator rotor, both are dry
This spacer goes between covers to get cooling airflow, cutting hole in top or  fitting two easy if trigger clearance is issue-- but looks ok in picture
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRgN_s3DOhhE83qflAZ9f0hCSfHjeBUbkppSn0UlT0V0shhHsGBwWtC7ZM)

As they say on the tee bee commercial, "everybody knows that."  ;D The cover and spacer won't fit on the Aero engine accessory housing, though.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on November 23, 2014, 10:26:59 AM
So you need a standard SB distribution cover (but without knowing if the oil seals are apt to the aero engine shaft, and having to give up the original timing sensors), or make a new alternator cover by yourself.

(http://img1.annuncicdn.it/d9/4a/d94a16bc79a1267f7dc9699b4d5f35dd_big.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 23, 2014, 11:36:36 AM
So you need a standard SB distribution cover (but without knowing if the oil seals are apt to the aero engine shaft, and having to give up the original timing sensors), or make a new alternator cover by yourself.

(http://img1.annuncicdn.it/d9/4a/d94a16bc79a1267f7dc9699b4d5f35dd_big.jpg)

Yes, I'm planning on using the Lario cover. Upon further review, my apologies to Martin, the stock cover *will* fit the aero engine casting, but I'm still going to use the Lario casting so I can have the tach drive.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 23, 2014, 07:02:47 PM
Yes, I'm planning on using the Lario cover. Upon further review, my apologies to Martin, the stock cover *will* fit the aero engine casting, but I'm still going to use the Lario casting so I can have the tach drive.


I thought it looked same pattern, I'd have to run as is first to test cam 's useability, conjecture about how it will run , answered, using programmable black box with aero trigger a quick easy way to get running.
Fitting points in there prob not too difficult either

Using cam profile for small valve heron heads or 4 valve is never going to be perfect, if you must go straight for tacho drive, I'd talk to cam grinder about what you have first, to do it right you have to measure valve-valve and valve piston clearances, then you'll want to measure spring tension, total can of worms with no baseline unless you've run what you have.

Putting electronic tach inside analogue body doable too I'm sure, lot less mucking about than designing a cam if aero one is already the dog's

Range converted already ? You work fast
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 24, 2014, 08:01:11 AM

I thought it looked same pattern, I'd have to run as is first to test cam 's useability, conjecture about how it will run , answered, using programmable black box with aero trigger a quick easy way to get running.

A man's got to know his limitations.  ;D Electronics are one of mine, and I don't know any one that could help me out with that.
Fitting points in there prob not too difficult either

Using cam profile for small valve heron heads or 4 valve is never going to be perfect, if you must go straight for tacho drive, I'd talk to cam grinder about what you have first, to do it right you have to measure valve-valve and valve piston clearances, then you'll want to measure spring tension, total can of worms with no baseline unless you've run what you have.

I've been emailing Milich back and forth. He thinks I should start with a stock V65 cam and go from there. At any rate, I need to clay up the piston and check clearances. I suppose I should also beg, borrow or make a degree wheel and have a go at checking this cam's timing. I've never done that before. I'm a parts changer.  ;D I have timed the old 4 valve cams, but the "book" was right in front of me with how to do it.

Putting electronic tach inside analogue body doable too I'm sure, lot less mucking about than designing a cam if aero one is already the dog's
 A man's got to know....  ;)

Range converted already ? You work fast

I'm dealing with "other people" on that project, so no telling when they will get around to setting a propane tank, running lines, etc. I hate to depend on "other people." It's part of my hesitance to run the electronic ignition from half way around the world with no experience in setting it up..
Thanks, again.

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 24, 2014, 03:51:46 PM
I know someone who just welded the cam nose for the tacho on a non tacho cam, that was on a v11 cam, looks similar construction. Tacho gear just needs to be straight, no force on it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 24, 2014, 06:11:26 PM
I know someone who just welded the cam nose for the tacho on a non tacho cam, that was on a v11 cam, looks similar construction. Tacho gear just needs to be straight, no force on it.

You know, that's in the finest tradition of bodging a Guzzi.  ;D ;-T I could do that.. Seriously, I'll think about it. All it would take would be to bore the end of the "weird" cam on center, cut off the end of the Lario cam, stick that sucker in there, and weld it.  ;-T Well, it would have to be pretty close to the right orientation.  ;) My steam powered ISP is apparently out of coal, so internet access has been *really* spotty for me. I'm just now getting some messages or PMs, but keep them coming.  Wasted another day not working on this, but maybe tomorrow...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 24, 2014, 07:49:47 PM
For programmable box, try Cliff (MYECU) in Sydney but I'm sure there are plenty of others in US, was someone on here flogging spark boxes not long ago.

Welding cam nose is sensible but I'd be running that cam (with electronic or no tacho) first, if it is good, camweld can be done, if not reprofile the tacho cam with knowledge of what you have.

Thing might be perfect, it might not, keep Lario cam whole till you know.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 24, 2014, 09:23:42 PM
No way I'd cut a (rare) Lario cam, maybe sacrifice a lesser (V50) cam instead.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on November 25, 2014, 03:58:34 AM
Moto Guzzi use the same cam profile for the heron head (who breathe worse than the aero engine) and for the 4 valves (who breathe better), so tu use them for the hemi heads, as a starting point, seems correct.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 25, 2014, 06:26:34 AM
No way I'd cut a (rare) Lario cam, maybe sacrifice a lesser (V50) cam instead.

Me either. V65 cams are pretty common, though. No time to look at it again today.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: huub on November 25, 2014, 05:34:38 PM
the lario cam is nothing special, just a v65 cam.
considering they used the same camshaft on the two valve heads, and on the four valve heads i would be amazed if they made a special camshaft for the aero engine.


Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 25, 2014, 05:41:01 PM
the lario cam is nothing special, just a v65 cam.
considering they used the same camshaft on the two valve heads, and on the four valve heads i would be amazed if they made a special camshaft for the aero engine.



When I get around to it..  ::) I'm going to degree both and see if there's a difference. Should at least add a little to the collective knowledge. It certainly has a different nose, though.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 25, 2014, 06:33:48 PM
the lario cam is nothing special, just a v65 cam.
considering they used the same camshaft on the two valve heads, and on the four valve heads i would be amazed if they made a special camshaft for the aero engine.




Must be something different about it, it has a different part number.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 25, 2014, 07:58:56 PM
When I get around to it..  ::) I'm going to degree both and see if there's a difference. Should at least add a little to the collective knowledge. It certainly has a different nose, though.

Quick test before you need wheel
one rocker arm off measure lift at pushrod with dial gauge
Do same to Lario (or measure lift of cam on bench)

That'll tell you if identical. Not impossible to have same lift and different duration/timing but unlikely.
Could measure overlap (lift of in and exhaust at TDC) to confirm.
Then if you really want the picture, find exact spot of peak lift for all four lobes of each and total duration of all (at 1mm or 040" )

I'm very surprised that Lario had same profile as V65 but seem to remember reading here there are early and late Lario cams (bigger base circle?) could be part number difference.



Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on November 25, 2014, 08:19:13 PM
considering they used the same camshaft on the two valve heads, and on the four valve heads i would be amazed if they made a special camshaft for the aero engine.
From what I remember from an interview with Todero, they did.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 26, 2014, 11:36:25 AM
Ok, let's find out what we have. Thought I'd bite the bullet and (cough cough) buy a degree wheel. Called an auto parts store close by. "A what?" Tried the NAPA know how man. "Never have heard of a degree wheel."  ::) This country is losing skilled people by the minute.
I'd made a quicky on the printer and stuck it on some canvas bakelite I had laying around when I first put the Lario together, so just decided to use it. It'll be close enough for what we're doing..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsf305dcc7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsf305dcc7.jpg.html)
Now, we need a piston stop. The longest M10 x 1 bolt I have isn't long enough. I'll bet Stan at the local hardware doesn't have a longer one with threads all the way up, either.. so
Drill and ream .001" smaller than an ejector pin.. (I was a mold maker in another life time)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps5091752b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps5091752b.jpg.html)
Cut off a piece of hardened ejector pin with a fiber wheel..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zps517d517f.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zps517d517f.jpg.html)
Press it together with the Ancient Airlines High Tech Assembly Press.. nothing fancy, just need to keep the steel piece from falling into the engine..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-005_zpscb0bbc76.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-005_zpscb0bbc76.jpg.html)
Grind a bullet nose on the end. No need to ding the piston with a sharp edge when bringing it up against the stop. Sorry, no picture..takes two hands.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zps5e51f9bf.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zps5e51f9bf.jpg.html)
Now, we have a piston stop. How long did that take? Less time than telling about it.
All we have to do now is fashion a pointer for the degree wheel and something to hold a dial indicator. "TWEEEEET" Oh, that was the lunch whistle. Back later..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rumba on November 26, 2014, 11:57:22 AM
chuck, open up "google pictures" and type in: degree wheel.
lots of pretty stuff to print then.
 :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 26, 2014, 03:04:28 PM
chuck, open up "google pictures" and type in: degree wheel.
lots of pretty stuff to print then.
 :BEER:

Too late.  ;D Besides that, it would have included using a printer that works.  ::) At any rate, I rummaged through my "good junk" pile, found a piece of .045 aircraft aluminum, went over to the shear and brake, and have a custom made pointer.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zpsbbb84f20.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zpsbbb84f20.jpg.html)
I may as well impart another pearl of machine shop wisdom while I'm at it. To drill holes in thin stock, a normal drill will make a triangular hole, and just as it breaks through jerk it out of the vise and beat you to death with it.  ;D Seriously. You can get hurt. Here's how to grind a sheet metal bit. I'm showing a big one so you can see the geometry, but you make the small ones the same way. Do it by hand on a bench grinder with a radius dressed on the edge. Grind it so the point touches first, then the outer flutes. It will center on the point, then the outer flutes will start cutting, make a round hole, and won't grab. Your insurance carrier will thank me.  ;) :BEER:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zps509608c9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zps509608c9.jpg.html)
 
Mounted up.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-010_zpsd85f6ba0.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-010_zpsd85f6ba0.jpg.html)
Now all we have to do is find a way for the magnetic indicator holder to be mounted. Rummaging in the good junk pile again finds a piece of 1/8" steel. Drill a mount hole. Notice that I didn't use a sheet metal drill in this much thicker stuff, but it still made a sort of triangular hole.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-011_zps02e88425.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-011_zps02e88425.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-012_zpsc2521d38.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-012_zpsc2521d38.jpg.html)
Now, we're set to check the Lario cam. Cost? zero. (Guzzi content)  ;D
Turn the engine in the direction of normal rotation until it hits the stop. Rotate the degree wheel to zero.
Turn the engine in the opposite direction until it hits the stop and read the degrees. In this case, it was 52. So, I set the degree wheel at 26. Now, when you rotate the engine to zero you will be at TDC. ?Comprende  ;D If the flywheel is marked correctly, the mark will line up with the split line of the crankcase. It does.
Ok, here we go. We want the axis of the indicator to be parallel with the pushrod. Ideally, it should *be* on the pushrod, but this will be close enough for all practical purposes. Set the indicator to zero. It should stay there on the base circle of the cam. Rotate the engine in the direction of normal rotation. (CW, viewed from the front) As the indicator starts to move, stop at .050" and read the degree wheel. When it tops out, read the total lift on the indicator. As it goes down, stop at .050 and read the degree wheel again.
Here's what the Lario cam says.
Exhaust opens 134 degrees
total lift .253"
Exhaust closes 8 degrees BTDC
Intake opens 7 degrees BTDC
total lift .253"
Closes 37 degrees After BDC
I don't know cam nomenclature, so these might not make sense to a cam grinder. What we're trying to do here is see if the aero engine is the same.
So...
This is a TDC tool I made 30 years ago for the VW powerplant in my homebuilt airplane. It'll work fine on the aero engine.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-013_zps737774f4.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-013_zps737774f4.jpg.html)
I'll check it out after a while. Don't touch that dial.  ;D Gotta talk to the telephone fixer and the range salesman.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Aaron D. on November 26, 2014, 03:44:43 PM
Good stuff about the sheet metal drill! That will come in handy, thanks for that.

In defense of the current generation, I  don't think many auto parts guys knew degree wheels back in the 70's.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on November 26, 2014, 03:51:11 PM
" Besides that, it would have included using a printer that works. "

I have it on good authority from the intelligent machines coalition that when the revolution comes, the printers will not be participating.

Quote: " Printers? Those guys don't get along with anybody ! "

Thanks for the machinist wisdom. You have saved me some future grief.

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 26, 2014, 04:07:37 PM
" Besides that, it would have included using a printer that works. "

I have it on good authority from the intelligent machines coalition that when the revolution comes, the printers will not be participating.

Quote: " Printers? Those guys don't get along with anybody ! "

Thanks for the machinist wisdom. You have saved me some future grief.



Glad to help. I *hate* to see guys running around with blood gushing out of their hand..
Didn't know about the printers.  ;D Thanks for the heads up. Got the fone fixed, got the range ordered, but the whistle just blew, and it's beer o'clock. We'll get to the aero engine cam tomorrow.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 26, 2014, 07:26:50 PM
Find peak lift
read degree wheel 010" before and after max lift (normal rotation)
As with TDC the middle of these is true peak lift
read as ATDC for inlet and ABDC for exhaust

From first figures you've got 108 ex and 105 inlet,
more accurate closer to max but numbers sound right

Then overlap--- your 7 & 8 figures say it's close--- measure lift on both at TDC (same way)

To be perfect measure all 4 lobes.
Not needed for this comparo but you may as well get all detail on Aero cam if it's different-- this will tell grinder everything

The box of sparks man here is CSPerformance (67 V700 barn find thread) bet he can make trigger work (programmable)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 26, 2014, 08:13:15 PM
Find peak lift
read degree wheel 010" before and after max lift (normal rotation)
As with TDC the middle of these is true peak lift
read as ATDC for inlet and ABDC for exhaust

From first figures you've got 108 ex and 105 inlet,
more accurate closer to max but numbers sound right

Then overlap--- your 7 & 8 figures say it's close--- measure lift on both at TDC (same way)

To be perfect measure all 4 lobes.
Not needed for this comparo but you may as well get all detail on Aero cam if it's different-- this will tell grinder everything

The box of sparks man here is CSPerformance (67 V700 barn find thread) bet he can make trigger work (programmable)

Thanks for that. I'll check the aero cam in the morning. I talked to CS at the nationals this year. It could be made to work, but not with the stock sensors. I'm still planning on using the mechanical tach drive if at all possible.. ~;  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tris on November 27, 2014, 01:37:22 AM

I may as well impart another pearl of machine shop wisdom while I'm at it. To drill holes in thin stock, a normal drill will make a triangular hole, and just as it breaks through jerk it out of the vise and beat you to death with it.  ;D Seriously. You can get hurt. Here's how to grind a sheet metal bit. I'm showing a big one so you can see the geometry, but you make the small ones the same way. Do it by hand on a bench grinder with a radius dressed on the edge. Grind it so the point touches first, then the outer flutes. It will center on the point, then the outer flutes will start cutting, make a round hole, and won't grab. Your insurance carrier will thank me.  ;) :BEER:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zps509608c9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zps509608c9.jpg.html)
 

I think that called a butterfly ground tip over here at least
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 27, 2014, 11:18:07 AM
Find peak lift
read degree wheel 010" before and after max lift (normal rotation)
As with TDC the middle of these is true peak lift
read as ATDC for inlet and ABDC for exhaust

From first figures you've got 108 ex and 105 inlet,
more accurate closer to max but numbers sound right

Then overlap--- your 7 & 8 figures say it's close--- measure lift on both at TDC (same way)

To be perfect measure all 4 lobes.
Not needed for this comparo but you may as well get all detail on Aero cam if it's different-- this will tell grinder everything

The box of sparks man here is CSPerformance (67 V700 barn find thread) bet he can make trigger work (programmable)

I'll go back and measure the Lario on the pushrod end so we're comparing oranges to oranges..  ;D Made a gizmo to fit on the indicator that will center it on the pushrod. Tomorrow should tell all. Doing Thanksgiving things today. We have *much* to be thankful for..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 28, 2014, 01:23:08 PM
Well, every skilled tradesman knows that ďThereís never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over".  ;D I originally thought that Iíd just do a quick check and see if the two cams were similar. No real need to do it right.. but I wasnít getting repeatable results.
So I decided to do it right this morning. Made a piece that fits over the indicator shaft with a tiny cone on it that will fit down in the oil delivery hole in the pushrod to keep everything centered. While I was at it, the indicator itself was sticking from old lube/dust in the air, so I took it apart, cleaned it, and put a drop of MMO on the works.
Rumba mentioned downloading a degree wheel to print, so did that, too. It just happened to be the right diameter for the piece of bakelite that Iíd turned for my quick and dirty degree wheel. Iíd rather be lucky than goodÖ  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-011_zpsa83d65f0.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-011_zpsa83d65f0.jpg.html)
Now, letís get started doing it right. I should remind you that *I've never done this before* but itís typical machine shop work. Iím following Martinís instructions as best I can. Thanks Martin!
Letís walk through doing one cam lobe.
Removing the bolt lets the pin that holds the rocker arm slide out.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zps5ee443fc.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zps5ee443fc.jpg.html)
It is a very robust valve train, nothing like the dainty Lario.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps4908e0ab.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps4908e0ab.jpg.html)
We went over finding TDC yesterday, no need to restate that. Set the indicator at 0. It will now be on the base circle of the cam.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-009_zps1857d927.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-009_zps1857d927.jpg.html)
Rotate the engine until the indicator reads .050Ē This is when the valve starts to open. Read the degree wheel. Here, if you look carefully, you will see the indicator on 50 and the degree wheel at 9 degrees BTDC.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-010_zps69de0c36.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-010_zps69de0c36.jpg.html)
Continue turning in the direction of normal rotation until the indicator shows max deflection. This is total lift. Naturally, I forgot to take a picture, but it is .255 inch. Now, we want to find that angle, so back the flywheel up past .245, then normal rotation to .245 and read the degree wheel. Here, it reads 81.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-011_zpsa83d65f0.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-011_zpsa83d65f0.jpg.html)
Continue turning past .255 until it starts down and stop at .245 again. Read the degree wheel.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-012_zps252d910a.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-012_zps252d910a.jpg.html)
132. So 81 plus 132 divided by two is 106 degrees. Max lift is .255 inch @106 degrees ATDC. Gots it?  ;D
Now, all we have to do is keep turning in the direction of normal rotation until the indicator is at 050 again. Read the degree wheel at 44 degrees ABDC.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-014_zpsc4f59891.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-014_zpsc4f59891.jpg.html)
One other thing. Martin said to check overlap at TDC, so I assume that means the TDC where rookie Guzzi mechanics mistakenly set the valves.  ;D Thatís .073Ē on the indicator on this one.

Thatís basically how itís done. Itís the first time for me, and I know ďIĒ learned a lot. If you have never done it, hopefully you learned something, too.  :D
Hereís the specs:
Lario:
Exhaust Opens 45 degrees BDDC Max lift .234Ē@73 degrees ABDC. Closes 10 degrees ATDC. Overlap .077 at TDC
Intake Opens 8 degrees BTDC Max lift .234Ē@ 106 Degrees ATDC. Closes 45 degrees ABDC Overlap .073 at TDC.
Aero engine:
Exhaust opens 44 degrees BBDC Max lift .255Ē @ 72 degrees ABDC. Closes 8 degrees ATDC. Overlap .075 at TDC.
Intake opens 9 degrees BTDC. Max lift .255 @ 106 degrees ATDC. Closes 44 degrees ABDC. Overlap .073 at TDC.

Other than .021Ē more lift, they look quite similar to me. There is no doubt some slight error reading the very small degree wheel, but not much, I would think. One degree one way or the other doesnít sound like much to me but ďI know nothing.Ē  ;D  Maybe someone that does will chime in.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on November 28, 2014, 02:06:53 PM
 :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dl.allen on November 28, 2014, 02:25:10 PM
I dont get the 10 thou before and after max lift?  Is that just to get thr degree wheel reading to half to read the max lift?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: huub on November 28, 2014, 02:27:55 PM
pretty amazing , exactly the same cam timing.
so running this cam on a road bike shouldnt be a problem
the valve train looks like what you will find in a bigblock guzzi
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FOvie0bIuK8/TppESFJ8FnI/AAAAAAAAAHw/g19VaDwz_aM/s1600/IMG_1854.JPG)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on November 28, 2014, 03:48:09 PM
So only difference is 1/2 a mm more lift. While that is a difference I can't see it making a terrific change to performance. Why not try one of the 'Boring as Batshit and Common as Muck' V65 cams withnthe required drive on the front and see what happens. With less lift and same duration you know nothing is going to go 'Biff'. I'd still turn it over by hand before tring to start it though but I'm paranoid like that. ;D

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 28, 2014, 03:51:46 PM
I dont get the 10 thou before and after max lift?  Is that just to get thr degree wheel reading to half to read the max lift?

It's hard to tell *exactly* where the highest point is. You can rotate the crankshaft a little without much change in the indicator reading. By going .010" on each side of the highest reading and averaging it, you have an accurate dimension. Make sense?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 28, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
So only difference is 1/2 a mm more lift. While that is a difference I can't see it making a terrific change to performance. Why not try one of the 'Boring as Batshit and Common as Muck' V65 cams withnthe required drive on the front and see what happens. With less lift and same duration you know nothing is going to go 'Biff'. I'd still turn it over by hand before tring to start it though but I'm paranoid like that. ;D

Pete

I like the way you're thinking.  ;D I'd get to keep my mechanical tach drive, too. I *like* my big white faced Veglia.  ;D (and mechanical stuff in general) I sent an email to Milich.. he told me he had V65 cams with 2mm more lift and 10 degrees more duration. I want an engine that will actually idle.  ~; ;D Whatdoyouthink, you gurus?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 28, 2014, 06:39:59 PM
I like the way you're thinking.  ;D I'd get to keep my mechanical tach drive, too. I *like* my big white faced Veglia.  ;D (and mechanical stuff in general) I sent an email to Milich.. he told me he had V65 cams with 2mm more lift and 10 degrees more duration. I want an engine that will actually idle.  ~; ;D Whatdoyouthink, you gurus?

I think you'd have to  to careful with valve valve & valve piston clearance but doubt idle would be issue.
To test fit light valve springs (really really light) to one head, turn over with degree wheel still on, check valve-valve (dial gauge now on valve top collar) need 040" min (TDC and a couple of deg either side)
Ed might know lift at TDC with new cam so work with that number or buy and try
Valve - piston at max lift (add new 2mm - extra 021" you have.). Also around TDC
Me ? I'd run aero cam to try it, 021" is relevant, they went to the trouble of making special grind,
But your peaks are read as
In 106 Ex 107/108 sorry if I said it backwards but are timed neatly, you could advance it 2 deg but no more IMHO,
MH
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 28, 2014, 06:49:32 PM
Quote
Me ? I'd run aero cam to try it, 021" is relevant, they went to the trouble of making special grind,

Agreed. But..I'd have a lot of money tied up running it as is. Roughly $400 for ignition, probably a couple of hundred *at least* for a tach. I can get a V65 cam ground for considerably less than that.. *and* I'd still have my white faced Veglia.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: CalVin2007 on November 28, 2014, 09:19:14 PM
  2mm more lift and 10 deg more duration is what I'd be looking at if I were wanting to have something that made power a bit higher in the rev range but was still decent to ride (and it'll idle too). I'd reassemble what you have with the aero cam and light "checking springs", add the extra lift via the adjustment screws, and rotate the engine as Martin says to check for clearances at all points near TDC. I'd even add a bit extra lift to mimic the extra 10 degrees  of duration since what that will do is get the valve open sooner and closer to the piston. This will get you an idea of what you are dealing with....if you have a mile of clearance then great! If things are close then more careful steps will need be taken. I like the thought of more cam in this one!

   Terry
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on November 28, 2014, 10:05:44 PM
Ed knows his stuff here. I'd trust him on the cam advice. This is what he does.  :+1 on the Veglia white face!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on November 29, 2014, 12:47:44 PM
One further thought on the cam issue.

The performance criteria for the drone motor would be very different to a motorbike. My guess would be that apart from take off the major criteria would be good fuel economy at one constant engine speed. There is also the matter of air density changes due to altitude, much easier to deal with with FI but since this beast is going to run carbs and need flexibility and altitude changes will be less of an issue it might well be that one of the motorbike engine camshafts would be a better bet.

Just thinking out loud.....

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: huub on November 29, 2014, 01:13:20 PM
10 degrees is not that much , but 2 mm extra lift is a significant difference.
you might get into trouble with valves touching each other, or the piston
one modification causes another.
i would just add a revcounter drive to the original camshaft.

having said that , you are the first one fitting a aero engine to a bike , so you might as well be the first one who tunes the aero engine.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Aaron D. on November 29, 2014, 01:28:48 PM
I would expect lift in a 2 valve hemi to be higher than a 4 valve Lario, or.a Heron engine.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dl.allen on November 29, 2014, 03:27:51 PM
It would be cool to run all the original parts together so that's my vote......not that I get one ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 29, 2014, 04:32:42 PM
It would be cool to run all the original parts together so that's my vote......not that I get one ~;

I think it would be cool to make a ground pounding small block out of it.. ~;  either that or a mild (but considerably more powerful than what is currently offered) street engine. Haven't decided yet. I get the last vote.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 29, 2014, 04:55:15 PM
I think it would be cool to make a ground pounding small block out of it.. ~;  either that or a mild (but considerably more powerful than what is currently offered) street engine. Haven't decided yet. I get the last vote.  ;D

I think you can achieve that with just a stock V65 cam. Hemi heads gotta' flow better than the Heron heads. <shrug>  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 30, 2014, 02:10:55 AM
  2mm more lift and 10 deg more duration is what I'd be looking at if I were wanting to have something that made power a bit higher in the rev range but was still decent to ride (and it'll idle too). I'd reassemble what you have with the aero cam and light "checking springs", add the extra lift via the adjustment screws, and rotate the engine as Martin says to check for clearances at all points near TDC. I'd even add a bit extra lift to mimic the extra 10 degrees  of duration since what that will do is get the valve open sooner and closer to the piston. This will get you an idea of what you are dealing with....if you have a mile of clearance then great! If things are close then more careful steps will need be taken. I like the thought of more cam in this one!

   Terry

I wouldn't add lift  via adjusters, very solid way to check, you're waiting to hit
I use dial gauge to measure what clearance I have, if trying an unknown I'd rather give extra clearance first, then measure till it hits
Just me
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 30, 2014, 06:39:48 AM
Ed thinks that unless I want to go "full Monty" on it I just might as well put a V65 cam in it and call it good.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 30, 2014, 07:09:57 PM
Just out of left field
From on here, not my personal experience, Larios did have a cam wear problem (like current 8V but blamed on valve spring pressure)
Just maybe the .021" difference is worn lobe on Lario, aero cam is exactly the same but unworn ?
Would explain the duration figures being the same.

In which case, if as stated here, Lario & V65 were the same, fitting orig V65 cam will not be changing anything.

Lift in book for Lario and V65 cam anyone ?



Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 01, 2014, 05:38:59 AM
Just out of left field
From on here, not my personal experience, Larios did have a cam wear problem (like current 8V but blamed on valve spring pressure)
Just maybe the .021" difference is worn lobe on Lario, aero cam is exactly the same but unworn ?
Would explain the duration figures being the same.

In which case, if as stated here, Lario & V65 were the same, fitting orig V65 cam will not be changing anything.

Lift in book for Lario and V65 cam anyone ?

That's apparently not for the great unwashed masses to know. I haven't found diddley squat about the cams. Shirley  ;D though, if the Lario cam was worn that much there'd be signs of it? I'll ping Milich one more time. He's probably getting tired of me bugging him.




Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on December 01, 2014, 06:16:02 AM
You dont measure cam timing at the pushrod you measure it at the valve. Trying to measure cam specs at the pushrod doesnt take into account the rocker ratio and the change of contact point of the rocker foot on the valve tip as the rocker rotates through it travel. So even if the rocker ratio is 1:1 you still wont have exact cam timing figures.
If the rocker ratio is not 1:1 then the lift figures will be wrong as well.
If you measure at the valve you can then compare cam timing from spec sheets.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 01, 2014, 06:31:40 AM
You dont measure cam timing at the pushrod you measure it at the valve. Trying to measure cam specs at the pushrod doesnt take into account the rocker ratio and the change of contact point of the rocker foot on the valve tip as the rocker rotates through it travel. So even if the rocker ratio is 1:1 you still wont have exact cam timing figures.
If the rocker ratio is not 1:1 then the lift figures will be wrong as well.
If you measure at the valve you can then compare cam timing from spec sheets.
Ciao

Aw.. you're still upset because I put those Gaudy Gaiters on the Lario.  ~; ;D Crane cams info says to it just like I did it. http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=5
I won't argue total lift at the valve, though.. you're absolutely right. When I get around to it, I'm going to pull a head and check clearances, figure compression ratio, etc. to add to the collective knowledge of this engine.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on December 01, 2014, 07:39:36 AM
Aw.. you're still upset because I put those Gaudy Gaiters on the Lario.  ~; ;D Crane cams info says to it just like I did it. http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=5
I won't argue total lift at the valve, though.. you're absolutely right. When I get around to it, I'm going to pull a head and check clearances, figure compression ratio, etc. to add to the collective knowledge of this engine.
Crane make cams, they dont build engines. What engine builders are interested in is what happens at the valve after all the clearances are taken up and the pushrods flex etc etc.
The same reason serious engine builders dont use light dummy valve springs when doing valve timing and working out rocker post heights etc.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 01, 2014, 07:49:41 AM
Crane make cams, they dont build engines. What engine builders are interested in is what happens at the valve after all the clearances are taken up and the pushrods flex etc etc.
The same reason serious engine builders dont use light dummy valve springs when doing valve timing and working out rocker post heights etc.
Ciao

Certainly, but degreeing a cam is degreeing a cam. We were looking at the differences between the aero cam and a Lario cam.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on December 01, 2014, 08:39:56 AM
Certainly, but degreeing a cam is degreeing a cam. We were looking at the differences between the aero cam and a Lario cam.
Yes I understand Chuck you are doing a comparative exercise using the same methodology and I applaude you for the work you put in to show this stuff but Part of that good stuff is the info thats passed on.
For the purposes of people that are reading this thread and may be thinking of using it as a reference for doing their own cam timing its good to point out that your method isnt exactly the standard procedure.
As for the Lario gators, well we have a saying here in Australia......you cant polish a turd,.....but you can roll it in glitter. Or put gators on it.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on December 01, 2014, 08:46:27 AM
You dont measure cam timing at the pushrod you measure it at the valve. Trying to measure cam specs at the pushrod doesnt take into account the rocker ratio and the change of contact point of the rocker foot on the valve tip as the rocker rotates through it travel. So even if the rocker ratio is 1:1 you still wont have exact cam timing figures.
If the rocker ratio is not 1:1 then the lift figures will be wrong as well.
If you measure at the valve you can then compare cam timing from spec sheets.
Ciao

Your right about the rocker ratio, but I believe it will only have an impact on the lift, no impact on duration. Where you can run into trouble is if your going by a manual that is giving you numbers to use measured at a specific point,(e.g.) valve tip, and you decide to measure at pushrod instead. If you measure the duration of cam off a pushrod or lifter as Chuck has, you can time the cam around the lobe center the cam manufacturer has chosen(which is in the numbers you've been given from cam manufacturer). If you don't have the cam specs.,you can still time the cam using lobe center method as Chuck has. JMO.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on December 01, 2014, 08:49:48 AM
.
The same reason serious engine builders dont use light dummy valve springs when doing valve timing and working out rocker post heights etc.
Ciao

I don't think it would make any difference as valve timing goes. Maybe on rocker post height it would? JMO
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 01, 2014, 09:11:08 AM
You dont measure cam timing at the pushrod you measure it at the valve. Trying to measure cam specs at the pushrod doesnt take into account the rocker ratio and the change of contact point of the rocker foot on the valve tip as the rocker rotates through it travel. So even if the rocker ratio is 1:1 you still wont have exact cam timing figures.
If the rocker ratio is not 1:1 then the lift figures will be wrong as well.
If you measure at the valve you can then compare cam timing from spec sheets.
Ciao

As long as Chuck uses the same measure between any two engines, he can compare apples to apples. There's usually a "best" way in any measurement, but even then they must be done the comparably. I don't trust tape measures for true measurement in my shop, but I would trust comparable measurements using the same tape measure. I don't think Chuck did this to show the world how it's done btw.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on December 01, 2014, 09:14:12 AM
Your right about the rocker ratio, but I believe it will only have an impact on the lift, no impact on duration. Where you can run into trouble is if your going by a manual that is giving you numbers to use measured at a specific point,(e.g.) valve tip, and you decide to measure at pushrod instead. If you measure the duration of cam off a pushrod or lifter as Chuck has, you can time the cam around the lobe center the cam manufacturer has chosen(which is in the numbers you've been given from cam manufacturer). If you don't have the cam specs.,you can still time the cam using lobe center method as Chuck has. JMO.
Whenever you convert the cam information from a linier to a rotary motion you will get a variation it may be small but it will be there. same as the cam timing will be slightly different at the valve if you convert a hard foot tipped rocker to a roller tipped rocker with no other changes.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on December 01, 2014, 09:21:52 AM
Whenever you convert the cam information from a linier to a rotary motion you will get a variation it may be small but it will be there. same as the cam timing will be slightly different at the valve if you convert a hard foot tipped rocker to a roller tipped rocker with no other changes.
Ciao

That is exactly why you should time off a lifter using the chosen lobe center. More accurate, IMO.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on December 01, 2014, 09:56:19 AM
Ok, white Veglia tach and glitter on the gaiters, that about wraps it up, lets roll.... ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 01, 2014, 10:05:05 AM
Your right about the rocker ratio, but I believe it will only have an impact on the lift, no impact on duration. Where you can run into trouble is if your going by a manual that is giving you numbers to use measured at a specific point,(e.g.) valve tip, and you decide to measure at pushrod instead. If you measure the duration of cam off a pushrod or lifter as Chuck has, you can time the cam around the lobe center the cam manufacturer has chosen(which is in the numbers you've been given from cam manufacturer). If you don't have the cam specs.,you can still time the cam using lobe center method as Chuck has. JMO.

To the best of my knowledge (admittedly almost nonexistent)  ;D the numbers on a cam card from the manufacturer are done this way. <shrug>
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 01, 2014, 10:09:09 AM
Ok, white Veglia tach and glitter on the gaiters, that about wraps it up, lets roll.... ~;
;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/003_zps8c6f4d35.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/003_zps8c6f4d35.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Moto on December 01, 2014, 12:42:47 PM
Central Indiana looks more temperate than I remember! Dang Global Warming.

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on December 01, 2014, 06:28:24 PM
To the best of my knowledge (admittedly almost nonexistent)  ;D the numbers on a cam card from the manufacturer are done this way. <shrug>

Grinder I use gives lobe centres to time it, obviously he knows the duration, he ground it, his lobe centres recommendation always my starting point.
I do this at pushrod, is exactly same crank angle as at valve.
Light springs for checking valve clearances, I don't like leaning on heavy springs, risk of valve damage (yes, I've done that, once)
Plasticence on piston is fine for valve to piston IF you know there is some.
Valve to valve is hard on pushrod engine by definition, using numbers from grinder (ie lift at max overlap) always first step, me, I measure 3 times, cut once
Light springs with dial gauge works for me, after looksee , no springs, just holding valves in head

Solder for squish

Chuck
re orig cam in Lario, measure all 4 lobes peak lift, if one you measured was worn .021" very unlikely all 4 are equally worn
But I'm sure lift on that cam is known by someone on here, especially if as claimed before it is std V65
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on December 01, 2014, 06:35:36 PM
For valve to valve I just use a pair of wooden blocks to support the head. Use carb springs to hold the valves. Assemble the rocker gear etc and then turn the cam. Peer up into combustion chamber and see/measure V-T-V.

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on December 01, 2014, 06:52:10 PM
For valve to valve I just use a pair of wooden blocks to support the head. Use carb springs to hold the valves. Assemble the rocker gear etc and then turn the cam. Peer up into combustion chamber and see/measure V-T-V.

Pete

I use carb springs too
Wooden blocks in lieu of barrels ?
I get that but dial gauge on valve still needed to measure clearance as far as I can see, very hard to measure v-v with anything else.
Seeing a mile obviously good enough, seeing .030, .040 or .050, beyond these old eyes,

OHC engines totally different just hold head upside down with cam installed
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 01, 2014, 06:53:45 PM
Quote
Chuck
re orig cam in Lario, measure all 4 lobes peak lift, if one you measured was worn .021" very unlikely all 4 are equally worn
But I'm sure lift on that cam is known by someone on here, especially if as claimed before it is std V65

Strangely, enough.. Ed Milich says:
stock v65 cam is .225" cam lift, .285" valve lift. 1.27 rocker ratio

So now we have V65.. Lario.. and Aero, each with different lift. <scratching head>
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on December 01, 2014, 08:09:04 PM
I use carb springs too
Wooden blocks in lieu of barrels ?
I get that but dial gauge on valve still needed to measure clearance as far as I can see, very hard to measure v-v with anything else.
Seeing a mile obviously good enough, seeing .030, .040 or .050, beyond these old eyes,

OHC engines totally different just hold head upside down with cam installed

I just use feelers between 'em if I'm unsure.

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on December 01, 2014, 10:08:59 PM
Strangely, enough.. Ed Milich says:
stock v65 cam is .225" cam lift, .285" valve lift. 1.27 rocker ratio

So now we have V65.. Lario.. and Aero, each with different lift. <scratching head>
As I said Chuck, if you measure at the valve you can't go wrong. Rocker ratio is part of the equation as are the other variables.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 02, 2014, 07:04:40 AM
As I said Chuck, if you measure at the valve you can't go wrong. Rocker ratio is part of the equation as are the other variables.
Ciao


You're preaching to the choir here.  ;D I'll have the head off and have a look no matter what. No need to take a chance on wrecking some unobtainium stuff.. and.. we need  :PICS!:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on December 02, 2014, 07:47:57 AM
You're preaching to the choir here.  ;D I'll have the head off and have a look no matter what. No need to take a chance on wrecking some unobtainium stuff.. and.. we need  :PICS!:

 :+1

It's all enthralling... Let me know when you plan on starting it up, and I'll try to come down for a first start video.

It's bound to be Guzzi YouTube gold.  ;D

-Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 02, 2014, 08:24:46 AM
:+1

It's all enthralling... Let me know when you plan on starting it up, and I'll try to come down for a first start video.

It's bound to be Guzzi YouTube gold.  ;D

-Joe

 ;D Riiiiight..
Other stuff going on right now. I'll only get an hour here and there for a while, most likely.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 04, 2014, 11:10:59 AM
Well, I have some free time this morning, so time for some more small block porn. Pull the rockers..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps1ae7bb59.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps1ae7bb59.jpg.html)
Nice casting.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps300f65f6.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps300f65f6.jpg.html)
Note to self.. order o rings.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps82f49717.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps82f49717.jpg.html)
ďThat gotta Hemi innit?Ē
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zps68fa155c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zps68fa155c.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-005_zps47e0792d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-005_zps47e0792d.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zps45049864.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zps45049864.jpg.html)
Carb springs, huh. Got some. Off to the Ancient Airlines High Tech Head Assembly Bench (tm).. <sweating bullets> Do not damage Mr Unobtainium head..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zps601cca15.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zps601cca15.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zpsbcef65f0.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zpsbcef65f0.jpg.html)
Torque her down, and have a look at TDC. .160Ē on the intake, .206 on the exhaust. Iím not sure what that tells us, but thought I oughta do it..  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-009_zps6164ff0b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-009_zps6164ff0b.jpg.html)
Now, for the acid test. Since these valves point at each other, theyíre bound to hit sooner or later. We need to find where they are both open the farthest during the cycle. Reassembled the valve train. Pulled the intake casting off so I could see a little better. Nice. Donít know if the later big blocks did away with the gasket or not..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-011_zpsfd3409f1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-011_zpsfd3409f1.jpg.html)
This looks like the spot. 5 degrees after TDC with both valves open. Set the indicator on zero and push the valve open until it hits. Shirley  ;) thery'll be plenty of clearance. Doink doink.. Hmmmm.. can that be right?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-012_zps3f62e32e.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-012_zps3f62e32e.jpg.html)
Letís move the setup a little and make absolutely certain that  was correct.
Yep. .065Ē  :o Probably a good thing I just didnít drop that cam with 2mm more lift in it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-016_zpsfb7eda16.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-016_zpsfb7eda16.jpg.html)
  Looks like a V65 cam is in our future.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kckershovel on December 04, 2014, 11:25:50 AM
I am excited about this project.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on December 04, 2014, 11:53:16 AM
I am also. I have a dumb question...

I think I noted about six or eight pages ago that this device has some provenance with the folks at Sierra Nevada Corporation.

I know they have A LOT of different divisions, and being governmentally inclined they tend to be close mouthed.

And I know that  having empirical data provided to you would take at least half the fun out of this project.

But those folks are one of my customers, and I can't help but wonder - have you considered seeing if you can find a friendly soul somewhere inside the project to share whatever documentation they could legally share with you regarding this engine?

(prepares for NSA to visit me and ask me about my loyalty to the state)   ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 04, 2014, 12:11:20 PM
I am also. I have a dumb question...

I think I noted about six or eight pages ago that this device has some provenance with the folks at Sierra Nevada Corporation.

I know they have A LOT of different divisions, and being governmentally inclined they tend to be close mouthed.

And I know that  having empirical data provided to you would take at least half the fun out of this project.

But those folks are one of my customers, and I can't help but wonder - have you considered seeing if you can find a friendly soul somewhere inside the project to share whatever documentation they could legally share with you regarding this engine?

(prepares for NSA to visit me and ask me about my loyalty to the state)   ;)
Actually, I have a close relationship with Sierra Nevada, and I'm sworn to secrecy, other than they give me empty pushrod boxes.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 04, 2014, 01:41:45 PM
Those are beautiful heads, pieces and domed pistons. Looks like you found the data you need to move forward. Interesting to say the least. Reminds me of my project last year; the unknown.   :bike
Kevin
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on December 04, 2014, 01:55:21 PM
" Actually, I have a close relationship with Sierra Nevada, and I'm sworn to secrecy "

Well then, that's all I can ask for. Don't tell me any more, I'm not cleared for it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on December 04, 2014, 04:36:27 PM
Grind it so the point touches first, then the outer flutes. It will center on the point, then the outer flutes will start cutting, make a round hole, and won't grab. Your insurance carrier will thank me.  ;)

That type of point works a lot better on wood than a standard 118į or 135į point too.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldmxdog61u on December 04, 2014, 05:56:16 PM
I love Sierra nevada pale ale, almost as much as any of chucks wonderful threads! :bow
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on December 04, 2014, 06:37:34 PM
Actually, I have a close relationship with Sierra Nevada, and I'm sworn to secrecy, other than they give me empty pushrod boxes.. ;D

SNC?  Oddly enough a couple of my platforms are listed on their website. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 04, 2014, 07:01:57 PM
I love Sierra nevada pale ale, almost as much as any of chucks wonderful threads! :bow

Thankya thankya.  ;D Sierra Nevada doesn't make a bad beer. Take your pick, it will be true to style.  They are no longer a "craft brewer" (too big) but still do a great job. ;-T Unfortunately, they are high in calories and carbs, so*I* can't have them as an "every day" brew. <sigh> YMMV, of course.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on December 04, 2014, 08:05:33 PM
Well, every skilled tradesman knows that ďThereís never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over".  ;D I originally thought that Iíd just do a quick check and see if the two cams were similar. No real need to do it right.. but I wasnít getting repeatable results.
So I decided to do it right this morning.
Lario:
Exhaust Opens 45 degrees BDDC Max lift .234Ē@73 degrees ABDC. Closes 10 degrees ATDC. Overlap .077 at TDC
Intake Opens 8 degrees BTDC Max lift .234Ē@ 106 Degrees ATDC. Closes 45 degrees ABDC Overlap .073 at TDC.
Aero engine:
Exhaust opens 44 degrees BBDC Max lift .255Ē @ 72 degrees ABDC. Closes 8 degrees ATDC. Overlap .075 at TDC.
Intake opens 9 degrees BTDC. Max lift .255 @ 106 degrees ATDC. Closes 44 degrees ABDC. Overlap .073 at TDC.


Something funny going on here
Well, I have some free time this morning, so time for some more small block porn. Pull the rockers..

Torque her down, and have a look at TDC. .160Ē on the intake, .206 on the exhaust. Iím not sure what that tells us, but thought I oughta do it..  ;D


Yep. .065Ē  :o Probably a good thing I just didnít drop that cam with 2mm more lift in it.

  Looks like a V65 cam is in our future.


Either rocker ratio is way different inlet & exhaust or something has changed, you had .002" difference at TDC at pushrods and now .046" difference at valves.

Methinks the wheel has moved (or the fairies moved it)


But .065" is plenty of clearance (.040" is enought IMHO), extra 2mm on Ed's cam is not at TDC but at peak, get figures at TDC to compare with yours, may still go in without seating valves further.
Check valve to piston too
MH
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 05, 2014, 07:07:55 AM
Something funny going on here

Either rocker ratio is way different inlet & exhaust or something has changed, you had .002" difference at TDC at pushrods and now .046" difference at valves.

Methinks the wheel has moved (or the fairies moved it)


But .065" is plenty of clearance (.040" is enought IMHO), extra 2mm on Ed's cam is not at TDC but at peak, get figures at TDC to compare with yours, may still go in without seating valves further.
Check valve to piston too
MH
Thanks. First, let me say that what I don't know about valve train dynamics would fill several volumes.  ;D
Rocker ratio wouldn't have anything to do with it. The rockers weren't even on it for that check. I just *assumed* the difference was the diameter of the valves.
Agreed, .065" is plenty, from what I've read .040" is about minimum. Still..  The "performance" V65 cam has 2 mm more lift and 10 degrees more duration. I'm guessing they would be close, but I'll investigate farther today.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 05, 2014, 06:36:01 PM
House cleaning day today, so Iíve been banished to the shop.  ;-T  Iím going to have a look at the Lario cam in case itís usable. Why not? I have one.. Pulled the oil pan.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsfa7e5cc7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsfa7e5cc7.jpg.html)
Jeeeze zus. Not only did the DPO not repair the cylinder damage before putting it back together, he didnít even bother to clean the broken piston parts out of the pan. This had to be at least the second time it blew up,.. see the screen? Itís upside down. There are no tabs for the lock plate to set against. The O ring? Spare parts.. ;D
Cleaned it up and turned the screen over..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps51d9d012.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps51d9d012.jpg.html)
Ok, lets get this cam out of there. Disclaimer: Iíve never done this on a small block, either. Blindly forging ahead and using the Special Guzzi Tool cleverly disguised as needle nose vise grips to take the tension off the timing chain.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps852b74d6.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps852b74d6.jpg.html)
Just one screw holds the tensioner in. A clever design, and better than the big blocks, IHMO. Take it off, remove the two bolts that hold the cam gear on and the nut that holds the oil pump gear. Hmmm, they should pull right off, but the cam sprocket doesnít want to move with some careful tapping and prying. Buffalo to the rescue. Fortunately it didnít take much..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zpsd687fa53.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zpsd687fa53.jpg.html)
This tiny pin drives it. Probably should keep track of that.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-005_zps6a3f4505.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-005_zps6a3f4505.jpg.html)
A magnet will get it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zps7ac732ef.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zps7ac732ef.jpg.html)
Put the chain, sprockets, hardware, etc. in a bag to keep track of them.
After pulling all that you can see the cam. Notice the dot that lines up with the dot on the crank sprocket. This how the cam is timed.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zps10f11a49.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zps10f11a49.jpg.html)
Almost there. Take all the tension off the pushrods by loosening the valve train. Remove the oil pressure sender. Trust me.  ;D Turn the engine upside down so the lifters donít fall into the crankcase. Gravity is your friend.  ;D Pull the cam out. Nothing to it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zpsf7d5ebf0.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zpsf7d5ebf0.jpg.html)
Here, you can see the bearing on the rear of the cam that the oil pressure sender fits into. This controls the fore and aft movement of the cam. Pretty clever. Now you know why you never turn the engine over without having the oil pressure sender installed.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zpsf114b76c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zpsf114b76c.jpg.html)
Take the cam to the wash tank and clean it up for inspection. Feeling pretty good about this, but like Wiley Coyote.. uh oh. See the light reflecting on the cam lobe? It should be straight. Sheís dead, Jim.  ;) If you have a very small boat, it will make a fine anchor, though.. Three out of four ainít bad..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-013_zps2267db67.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-013_zps2267db67.jpg.html)
Dang! I wanted to use it. Oh, well.
Letís see if we can get rid of this sump extender with oil cooler outlets. If thereís anything a Guzzi *doesnít* need itís cooler oil. Obviously, as an aero engine that runs at or nearly at full throttle all the time, an oil cooler is a good thing. I donít want it. Ugly. The pan would hang out the bottom and I couldnít use the Lario chin fairing. I know.. itís just styling, but I like the looks of it, just as I like the big white Veglia tach. If I can make it happen, itís history. Remove the bolts around the periphery of the oil pan, and this big booger. Iím assuming itís a banjo bolt.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-015_zpscd12a435.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-015_zpscd12a435.jpg.html)
Yep. The spacer comes off. Hereís a picture of it. The machined piece looks like a pressure relief valve, which you would  expect.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-016_zps0e8864e9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-016_zps0e8864e9.jpg.html)
Now, if Guzzi just pulled a case off the line.. and the drilled and tapped hole for the normal pressure relief valve is in the casting.. weíre golden. Iíd really like to not drill and tap if I donít have to.
Oh, yeah..  ;D ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-017_zpse7c515c7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-017_zpse7c515c7.jpg.html)
All we have to do is remove the valve from the Lario.. simple.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-018_zps8ef5f26b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-018_zps8ef5f26b.jpg.html)
And replace the plug with it. Uh, oh. Itís not budging, even with a big breaker bar. Iím betting they used that green lock tite that I use when I never ever want a fastener to come loose ever again. (!)  :o I donít blame them. If it backs off, the engine loses oil pressure, and they get a nasty gram from the DOD, or whoever is using this drone.
So. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-019_zps3bc5dd9e.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-019_zps3bc5dd9e.jpg.html)
There is enough heat  available here to melt the freakin casting. A little care is in order. <shrug> Shield the casting. Keep the heat on the bolt. When smoke starts to curl around the bolt, the thread locker is melting. Do not waste any time. Get the rattle gun on the bolt and rattle it out.
Whew! Nothing to it..  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-020_zps3a490089.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-020_zps3a490089.jpg.html)
A shop vac will get rid of the dried thread locker.
Clean the Lario pressure relief valve with your favorite solvent, and put some removable  ;) thread locker on it. Torque it down, and this job is done.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-021_zps6b967ccb.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-021_zps6b967ccb.jpg.html)
Might as well put the Aero engine sans spacer oil pan on the engine, but danged if it isnít 100 mm deeper. That sounds like a good thing to me, but now the Lario oil filter bolt is 100 mm too short. Probably I need to source a bolt that is 100 mm longer, and make a 100 mm spacer to use the OEM oil filter. Am I missing something?
Thatís it for today. Getting really close to putting it back in the bike. I have a stock V65 cam located unless someone can talk me out of it. Anyone? Iím not above putting a ďperformanceĒ cam in itÖjust donít want to blow up this unobtainium stuff..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on December 05, 2014, 07:04:12 PM
Very cool - thank you for all the images and the tale.

Brings back memories of my first Eldo surgery, and drives home how unprepared I am to perform such surgery these days.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 05, 2014, 08:39:55 PM

Yep. The spacer comes off. Hereís a picture of it. The machined piece looks like a pressure relief valve, which you would  expect.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-016_zps0e8864e9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-016_zps0e8864e9.jpg.html)


Looks like there's a difference in the lower half (at least) of the crankcase. Compare the pan gaskets:

(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/19003602.jpg)

Maybe you'll have to plug that hole the "big banjo bolt" came out of ?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on December 05, 2014, 09:04:02 PM
It seems to be related to the oil cooler plumbing. Better work out the oil route exactly to make sure nothing dreadful occurs on start up!

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on December 06, 2014, 05:24:21 AM
doesn't the aero valve fit in the other place(where the lario valve is). Might be other pressure it is set for.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 06, 2014, 06:45:00 AM
doesn't the aero valve fit in the other place(where the lario valve is). Might be other pressure it is set for.

No, it's too long.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 06, 2014, 06:57:34 AM
Looks like there's a difference in the lower half (at least) of the crankcase. Compare the pan gaskets:

(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/19003602.jpg)

Maybe you'll have to plug that hole the "big banjo bolt" came out of ?

That makes sense, Charlie. I'll have a *really* good look at it when I get the new oil filter, longer bolt, etc. At the time, I was more concerned about whether that boss for the regular relief valve would be drilled and tapped.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 06, 2014, 06:59:22 AM
It seems to be related to the oil cooler plumbing. Better work out the oil route exactly to make sure nothing dreadful occurs on start up!

Pete

"What's that sound??"  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 06, 2014, 09:13:05 AM
doesn't the aero valve fit in the other place(where the lario valve is). Might be other pressure it is set for.

Might be a good idea to test the "blow-off" pressure of the two OPRVs in case the aero engine one is different.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 06, 2014, 12:15:47 PM
Might be a good idea to test the "blow-off" pressure of the two OPRVs in case the aero engine one is different.

I mean absolutely no disrespect, Charlie, far from it, but what would be the point? I *assume* the Lario one isn't adjustable?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on December 06, 2014, 12:51:33 PM
"What's that sound??"  ;D

Everybody look - what's going down?  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on December 06, 2014, 12:56:34 PM
I mean absolutely no disrespect, Charlie, far from it, but what would be the point? I *assume* the Lario one isn't adjustable?

It looks similar to a big block type, which are adjustable via shims. Looks can be deceiving. :) I'm the paranoid type, so would probably heed Charlie's advice. Nice write up with pics., BTW.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 06, 2014, 04:14:13 PM
It seems to be related to the oil cooler plumbing. Better work out the oil route exactly to make sure nothing dreadful occurs on start up!

Pete

Yeah, on the Lario, the oil goes from the sump through the screen to the pump which fills the oil filter cavity, then on to the mains and cam bearings. The Aero engine *apparently* goes from the sump through the screen to the pump then through the big banjo bolt through the oil cooler, then fills the oil filter cavity, etc. The gallery from the pump to the filter cavity is blocked off on the Aero engine. Probably with the thread locker from hell.. ~;
I'll pull the pump on the aero engine when I get around to it to make sure. Thanks!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 06, 2014, 04:18:14 PM
Oh, and to you heavy hitters that have weighed in on this.. Thanks.  ;-T You've forgotten more about Guzzis than I will ever know.  :bow
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 06, 2014, 04:26:25 PM
I mean absolutely no disrespect, Charlie, far from it, but what would be the point? I *assume* the Lario one isn't adjustable?

Looks like it comes apart. Likely the same as a Big Block one, adjustment is done by adding and removing shims. Probably fits the same test rig I made for BB Tontis and Loops.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 06, 2014, 04:43:24 PM
Looks like it comes apart. Likely the same as a Big Block one, adjustment is done by adding and removing shims. Probably fits the same test rig I made for BB Tontis and Loops.

You mean I have to b bbb buy a M14 X 1.5 tap?  ;D This project's getting expensive.. I have every 'Merican tap and die known to man. Well, almost.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 06, 2014, 04:48:48 PM
You mean I have to b bbb buy a M14 X 1.5 tap?  ;D This project's getting expensive.. I have every 'Merican tap and die known to man. Well, almost.

Naw, just make a PVC test rig and melt the threads in.  ;D (I too thought that was very ingenious). 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 06, 2014, 04:51:00 PM
Naw, just make a PVC test rig and melt the threads in.  ;D (I too thought that was very ingenious). 

 ;D ;D  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: zedXmick on December 06, 2014, 07:38:43 PM
Wish you were Chuck in Wisconsin  ;D  I wouldn't hesitate about getting a "fixer up ran the last time it was parked,barn find Guzzi" with you in my state.   Love this thread. ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 13, 2014, 11:46:19 AM
I've been playing nurse while Dorcia recovers from her surgery, so haven't had any time to hang out in the shop. Her sister came over yesterday afternoon, so I had a couple of hours. Dave Blue fixed me up with a V65 cam, so it's time to start finishing this sucker up.  To you guys (and girls) that know how to do this stuff.. bear with me. Like the Lario rehab thread, this is for someone (like me) thatís never seen the inside of a small block or done some of these things.
First, we'll take off the timing chain tensioner.. Dammit, Luigi! Apparently he used a powered driver that was still turning when he pulled it out of the screw.. not a prayer of getting it loose with a normal allen wrench.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps3171cad6.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps3171cad6.jpg.html)
Naturally, I tried to pull the sprockets and chain without removing it. No cigar. <sigh>  Fortunately, I made this tool for my antique (why are all my tools antiques? I bought most of them new??)  ;D impact driver.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/03-006_zps8d96f788.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/03-006_zps8d96f788.jpg.html)
But first.. hereís a peen punch. Nothing more than a drill blank with a hand ground and  polished radius on the end.  Peen the head of that boogered up cap screw with it to cold form some material back into the hex. A copper hammer wonít chip the hardened end of the punch which would immediately make a bee line for your eye.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps7e77e88f.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps7e77e88f.jpg.html)
 Drive the tool in with your copper hammer.. you do have one, donít you? , and set the impact driver on it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/02-005_zps4ab468b2.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/02-005_zps4ab468b2.jpg.html)
Hold  pressure to the left.. lefty looseny..  ;)  and smack the driver with the copper hammer. The impact driver is nothing more than a cam that turns the end of the driver a few degrees with every swat. The downward pressure from the hammer keeps the tool in the screw head. Simple, and super effective. You need one.
Nothing to it.. as Iíve mentioned before, having the right tool is the biggest part of the job.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/01-004_zpsa475478e.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/01-004_zpsa475478e.jpg.html)
Now, we can  pull the chain, sprockets, and the little drive pin off and bag em. Thatís already been documented.. no need of doing that again. What Iím wanting to do is look at the oil pump cavity and see where itís pumping the oil. On the stock small block, the pump pulls it out of the pan, and it immediately goes to the oil filter chamber, then on to the bearings, etc. The lower crankcase casting is different on the aero engine, and if I want to get rid of the giant sump spacer complete with oil cooler lines (I do) Iíd better make damn sure that I know whatís going on. The Aero engine sends oil directly from the pump through the big banjo bolt through the cooler, to the filter cavity. I just wanted to make absolutely sure that was the only difference. It is.  ;D Hereís a picture of the oil pump mounting. Probing the galleries says itís same same..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/04-007_zpsd43657fe.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/04-007_zpsd43657fe.jpg.html)
This is the gallery that is normally open. It goes directly from the pump to the oil filter. See the allen head set screw that itís plugged with? No doubt, itís installed with the Thread Locker From Hell, too.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/05-008_zps762bb54b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/05-008_zps762bb54b.jpg.html)
In the worst case, I have extension drills, and I know how to use them..  ;D but first, letís try the impact driver. Fortunately, the tool I made is ďjustĒ long enough. SoÖ.
Get everything lined up, give it a good smack, and I can feel it turn a little. <James Brown/1 > I FEEL GOOD na da na da na da da <James Brown/0> Many swats later, it came out. No drilling required.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/06-009_zps53b2bdc6.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/06-009_zps53b2bdc6.jpg.html)
Q tips, solvent, compressed air are our friend. Clean up everything, including the oil pump. Itís the heart of any engine, and really needs to be looked at. Naturally, I forgot to take a picture of the exploded view. Itís in the manual, along with tolerances. Since it is basically new, I didnít measure anything, but if you are overhauling a used engine, itís critically important. (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/10-013_zps9b56cf9e.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/10-013_zps9b56cf9e.jpg.html)
This is a mix of  Redline 15-50 and STP. I apply it liberally on working parts before assembly.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/11-014_zps5ab7d14d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/11-014_zps5ab7d14d.jpg.html)
Install the pump, and torque it to 7 ft. lbs. Iím using removable lock tite on all internal fasteners.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/12-015_zps11241391.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/12-015_zps11241391.jpg.html)
Now the only thing left is to plug the tapped hole that originally went to the oil cooler. Checking the threads, itís M18X1.5. Hmmmm. Looking in my industrial supplier catalog, everything jumps from M16 to M20. Uh oh.. Oh, hereís one! Minimum order 50 pieces @  $12 hundred andÖ. Never mind. Time to go the internet. Googling M18X1.5 doesnít bring up much, but one of the ads says drain plug. Called the local automotive parts store and asked if they had one. ďWhatís it fit on?Ē You know the drill..  ;D I just asked if they would go and look at their drain plugs. ďYep, got one. $2.99.  ;D ;D The internet can be a wonderful thing.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/09-012_zps3b86825b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/09-012_zps3b86825b.jpg.html)
A circle template and scalpel..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/07-010_zpsd48c42b3.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/07-010_zpsd48c42b3.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/08-011_zpsc17cac7d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/08-011_zpsc17cac7d.jpg.html)
Some more blue lock tite, torque it down to 30 ft. lbs, and ďKing, this case is closed.Ē
Now we can install the cam. More as I get to it..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 13, 2014, 04:02:49 PM
Alrighty, let's swap cams.
Loosen the oil pressure sender
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpse7d38239.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpse7d38239.jpg.html)
Pull the rockers and pushrods
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zps305dc768.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zps305dc768.jpg.html)
V65 cam checks 1.047" The Aero cam is 1.068", just what you'd expect with .021" less lift on the V65 cam.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zps52e4ff3f.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zps52e4ff3f.jpg.html)
Here's the stuff for installing a cam. It's an extreme pressure lube, and important to use.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-005_zps6133cb0f.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-005_zps6133cb0f.jpg.html)
Neatness doesn't count. Cam Guard on the lobes, oil/STP mix on everything else..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-006_zpsccf9edbe.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-006_zpsccf9edbe.jpg.html)
Rotate the hole on the cam bushing to vertical, slide the cam in, and install the oil pressure sender.
Cam installed, complete with gear drive for my big white Veglia tach.  ;D
Edit: Oops, forgot to insert the last picture..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/7-007_zps3cdd41d1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/7-007_zps3cdd41d1.jpg.html)
No telling when I'll get back to it, so bagged everything with a trash bag.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on December 13, 2014, 05:26:42 PM
best wishes to Dorcia
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 13, 2014, 05:54:58 PM
best wishes to Dorcia

Thanks, John.. she's doing great. The cutters did a nice job. Pathology report was supposed to be here yesterday.. but they're backed up.  ::)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: sign216 on December 13, 2014, 06:04:32 PM
Good luck in the rebuild, and in playing nurse.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: gsf12man on December 14, 2014, 11:44:08 AM
This is fascinating stuff . . . and may we also add our best wishes to you and Dorcia.

Tom and Nancy (we met you at the National and Wisconsin rallies)



Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 14, 2014, 03:32:02 PM
This is fascinating stuff . . . and may we also add our best wishes to you and Dorcia.

Tom and Nancy (we met you at the National and Wisconsin rallies)





Thanks for that. We're gonna be fine, although I'm getting tired of doing dishes and housecleaning.. ~; :BEER: On a related note, if I see you again, and don't recognize you.. make yourself known. There's a place in your brain that stores faces and places. Mine took a pretty good hit one time. I may or may not recognize you. There's not much I can do about it. <shrug>
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Stormtruck2 on December 14, 2014, 03:34:46 PM
I never forget a face.  Names on the other hand.... :-\
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 14, 2014, 03:44:11 PM
I never forget a face.  Names on the other hand.... :-\

Matt, if I saw you somewhere that I wasn't expecting to see you.. I probably wouldn't recognize your face, either. Of course, you're so ugly, why would I want to?  ;D Lorraine, however, is a different matter.. ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Stormtruck2 on December 14, 2014, 04:02:11 PM
Matt, if I saw you somewhere that I wasn't expecting to see you.. I probably wouldn't recognize your face, either. Of course, you're so ugly, why would I want to?  ;D Lorraine, however, is a different matter.. ;D :BEER:

Really can't argue that point!!   :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 14, 2014, 09:20:20 PM
Nice to see up that things skirt.
Kevin
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Guido Valvole on December 14, 2014, 10:19:01 PM
@ Chuck and Stormtruck -- long (a dozen plus years) ago, I had a dream just before awakening. I saw the faces of everyone I'd ever met -- and could not remember a single (expletive deleted) name. and then woke up to the morning of my 50th birthday. Lol, true story, and hoping to meet y'all before we all check out.
cr
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on December 14, 2014, 10:38:27 PM
Guido , only know Chuckie on WG , but let me assure you , 'Truck is ... how to put this so I won't hurt his tender sensibilities , OK , interesting  ;D
<running and ducking> , as Chuckie would say  :o :D

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2014, 12:16:58 PM
Had an hour this morning  ;D so... let's see.. where were we?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps4b9ab7a5.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps4b9ab7a5.jpg.html)
Oh, yeah, I wanted to time the cam. So. Bring the 'Snot dis side piston to TDC. You'll see the aforementioned dot at the top of the crank sprocket.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zps8dfc1ecb.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zps8dfc1ecb.jpg.html)
Align the dot on the cam with it. I found the easiest way to assemble it is to put the little pin on the oil pump shaft at 12 o'clock, and start the oil pump sprocket first. Just enough to locate it. Then you can wrap the chain around it, the crankshaft sprocket, and then eyeball the cam sprocket to line up with the two mounting holes. Pretty easy, really.
Here, you can see the result. Notice the two dots?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zps4b9ab7a5.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zps4b9ab7a5.jpg.html)
"The Book" sez to tighten the two cam bolts to some crazy figure like 18 ft. lbs. My momma didn't raise no foolish children.  :o What I don't need at this point is to strip the threads out of the cam. 18 ft. lbs is more like for a hardened 8mm bolt. This one is 7. I decided to use my own judgement, and blue lock tite.  ~;
The Book does say to just tighten the nut on the oil pump shaft by holding it with a screwdriver. No torque given, as far as I could tell. <shrug> It's pretty self limiting at that point. Lock tite on it, too.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-004_zps9aa39b4a.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-004_zps9aa39b4a.jpg.html)
Now, all we have to do is install the cam chain tensioner. I've mentioned on the Lario thread that the engineers designed the small block after the big block, and they'd learned a fair amount. This is a much simpler, more robust design that is a no brainer to install. Just lay it in there, locate it by hand, and drive the screw. Done.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-005_zpsf87bb9bd.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-005_zpsf87bb9bd.jpg.html)
We could close up the timing chest now, except for checking the blow off pressure on the pressure relief valve. I'll have to *cough cough* BUY
a tap. (Guzzi content) Might as well get it ordered.  ;D
That hour went fast. This is fun stuff...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on December 15, 2014, 12:32:12 PM
So ... after rebuilding an exotic almost one of a kind engine , a nice simple R60 beemer motor should be a piece of cake , right . When should I show up  ;D

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2014, 12:44:44 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTiMjtl4ZvKl9Bz26OCGC3usvIeCDHQxwyLVbJfznoiG4ENckC7vQ)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on December 15, 2014, 12:47:23 PM
'Vee haff vays to make you listen.'  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on December 15, 2014, 01:11:16 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTiMjtl4ZvKl9Bz26OCGC3usvIeCDHQxwyLVbJfznoiG4ENckC7vQ)

AW , c;mon Chuckie , what if I remove all of the badges and bring the beer  ;D After all , it is just another ditch pump  ;)

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Howard R on December 15, 2014, 01:15:58 PM
You mean I have to b bbb buy a M14 X 1.5 tap?  ;D This project's getting expensive.. I have every 'Merican tap and die known to man. Well, almost.

The oil pressure relief only goes up to, what, 60 psi or so?  Seems to me you could use a short piece of 1/2 inch fuel injection hose (or some such that is already lying around in your shop) and a couple of hose clamps (Guzzi content) for a one time test setup.

Howard
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2014, 01:22:40 PM
The oil pressure relief only goes up to, what, 60 psi or so?  Seems to me you could use a short piece of 1/2 inch fuel injection hose (or some such that is already lying around in your shop) and a couple of hose clamps (Guzzi content) for a one time test setup.

Howard

Ooh, I *like* that.. FREE. (also Guzzi content)  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2014, 01:31:53 PM
AW , c;mon Chuckie , what if I remove all of the badges and bring the beer  ;D After all , it is just another ditch pump  ;)

  Dusty

Could I schedule a root canal instead?  ~; :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on December 15, 2014, 01:39:46 PM
Could I schedule a root canal instead?  ~; :BEER:
Does your dentist supply beer ? ;D Trust me Chuckie , no simpler engine ever , heck , I can do 99.9% of the work , and we ALL know what that implies  ;)

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2014, 02:42:44 PM
Does your dentist supply beer ? ;D Trust me Chuckie , no simpler engine ever , heck , I can do 99.9% of the work , and we ALL know what that implies  ;)

  Dusty

(http://cranky-colts.com/phpBB3/images/smilies/icon_pee.gif)
          BMW

<running and ducking>
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2014, 05:04:47 PM
Well, that was instructive. I couldn't find any aircraft fuel or oil hose of somewhere near the right size, so scrounged some old garden hose.  ::) After all, we're not talking high pressure here.  Don't try this at home, highly skilled professionals, etc. etc.  :D
The Aero pressure relief valve started leaking at 55 lbs, and by 60 lbs it was pretty open.

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zps2e16cbe7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zps2e16cbe7.jpg.html)

Even at that, I did take a few precautions. Holding it in the vise kept from making a rocket, and wrapping the air hose around the clamp should keep it from taking off and smacking something, too.. hey, a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do..
This sucker was leaking from the get go. By 20 psi, it was leaking like the other at 55. By 30, it was pretty open.  :o
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-009_zps169ae6f1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-009_zps169ae6f1.jpg.html)
Here's the exceptionally complicated valve.  ;)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-010_zps6890cd90.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-010_zps6890cd90.jpg.html)
The spring and piston is held on by a cap with three crush washers under it. Total thickness of those crush washers is .115". I tried taking all the crush washers off, and managed to get it up to 45 psi. I'm thinking that isn't enough, and am contemplating making a pin that fits inside of the spring with a head thickness of around .115" for some more spring preload. That way I could *probably* adjust the Lario valve to be the same as the Aero with the crush washer stack.
Anyone see any reason why I shouldn't? TIA.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 15, 2014, 05:45:49 PM
Dorcia update: The cutter just called and said there were three small cancers in the right breast, none in the left, and none in the sentinel lymph node. We're happy campers right now, and thanks to all..  ;-T
Now. Back to the Aero engine..  ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on December 15, 2014, 07:28:52 PM
Dorcia update: The cutter just called and said there were three small cancers in the right breast, none in the left, and none in the sentinel lymph node. We're happy campers right now, and thanks to all..  ;-T
Now. Back to the Aero engine..  ;D :BEER:

I'm happy for both of you Chuckie  ;-T

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on December 15, 2014, 07:35:33 PM
Very happy for Dorcia!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: bad Chad on December 15, 2014, 08:09:55 PM
I'm happy for both of you Chuckie  ;-T

  Dusty
:+1 :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 15, 2014, 08:34:54 PM

Here's the exceptionally complicated valve.  ;)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-010_zps6890cd90.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-010_zps6890cd90.jpg.html)
The spring and piston is held on by a cap with three crush washers under it. Total thickness of those crush washers is .115". I tried taking all the crush washers off, and managed to get it up to 45 psi. I'm thinking that isn't enough, and am contemplating making a pin that fits inside of the spring with a head thickness of around .115" for some more spring preload. That way I could *probably* adjust the Lario valve to be the same as the Aero with the crush washer stack.
Anyone see any reason why I shouldn't? TIA.

Looks much like the piston in a Loopframe or BB OPRV. On Loops I work with the valve until it doesn't leak at all at lower pressures and has a very definitive "blow-off" (cyclic pop-pop-pop-pop noise) at approx. 65 psi. Adding or removing shims usually doesn't help. Most of the time this can only be achieved by lapping the piston to the valve body.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 16, 2014, 06:27:20 AM
Can do, Charlie. Thanks for that..  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on December 16, 2014, 10:58:09 AM
Dorcia update: The cutter just called and said there were three small cancers in the right breast, none in the left, and none in the sentinel lymph node. We're happy campers right now, and thanks to all..  ;-T

Excellent !!  ;-T ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Stormtruck2 on December 16, 2014, 03:43:55 PM
Dorcia update: The cutter just called and said there were three small cancers in the right breast, none in the left, and none in the sentinel lymph node. We're happy campers right now, and thanks to all..  ;-T


Fantastic!!   Best news I've heard since we got the results of Lorriane's testing. ;-T ;-T ;-T ;-T ;-T ;-T ;-T ;-T ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 16, 2014, 07:16:09 PM
Alrighty, now.. let's continue with the *ahem* important stuff.. thanks to all. Really.
Since a couple of guys that know what they're talking about  ~; said I should check out the bypass valve in the Lario, that was the first thing on the schedule. Took both of them apart, cleaned, cleaned, etc. I still have several different grits of diamond compound from when I was wearing a mold maker's hat.. so used this.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsc28dc7d1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsc28dc7d1.jpg.html)
Put a little on the piston, stuck it in, worked it all around  :o  ;D and took off the (microscopically) high spots. Cleaned, cleaned, did I say cleaned? Put the Lario valve back in the test rig, played with sealing washers, and got it to do the same thing as the Aero valve. Starts leaking around 40 psi, seriously leaking at 65 psi, and blows off at 75 psi. The Aero valve blows off at 77. Neither one did the motorboat thing, though.
Good enough. Thanks for saving me again..  ;-T
Installed that. Liberally applied the mix of 15-50 and STP over the chain, sprockets, everything in the timing chest. Why STP? After all, it's snake oil. It *is* sticky, though.. and stays where it's put. No telling how long it'll be until this sucker gets started.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zps88aa05b0.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zps88aa05b0.jpg.html)
Installed the alternator. I left the advance mechanism and Dyna stuff on the bike tied up in a baggie, so it'll get installed after the engine is in the bike.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-004_zps28ae6791.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-004_zps28ae6791.jpg.html)
Notice the two longer screws. They go at the dowel pin locations.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zps9f507b34.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zps9f507b34.jpg.html)
I *could* temporarily install the plastic cover at this point, but why bother?
Called MG and ordered a couple of oil filters for a small block. Cheese head said, "Which one?" Hmmm, didn't know they were different. Good thing I talked to a human instead of a web site. Asked him about the o rings that go under the rocker pedestal. He rummaged among their stuff forever.. and couldn't find what I needed. Took at least 25 minutes with me.  ::) Service? You betcha..  ;-T
And now for something completely different. If there is a Guzzi engine that needs valve cover/head protectors.. this is it.  ;D
Located the holes..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-006_zps5af7a05b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-006_zps5af7a05b.jpg.html)
Transferred them to cad, and drew in the dimensions of the valve cover..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-007_zps80ec6f70.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-007_zps80ec6f70.jpg.html)
Then drew something that would keep the valve cover protected. Printed it out, cut it out with scissors just to see how it would look.. hmm.. pretty good. Laid it on the piece of aluminum I'd scrounged cheap (Guzzi content), and Uh oh. I either need to make an "engineering change" or find a bigger piece of aluminum.. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/7-010_zps3f2008ba.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/7-010_zps3f2008ba.jpg.html)
Oh, well.. no hill for a climber. More tomorrow. Or not. Gotta go play doctor again..

 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 18, 2014, 11:48:18 AM
Yesterday, we spent the day in Indy going to her cutter for a checkup, then an oncologist. More importantly,  ~; ;D  I found the O rings that go under the rocker pedestal, and the longer bolt to hold the oil filter. "What's it go on?" You know the drill..  :D
So, I had a couple of hours this morning to finish it up. Naturally, I forgot to take a picture of putting on the o rings and torquing down the head for the last time.. you'll just have to use your imagination.  ;D What follows is what I do when putting together the top end of a new engine.
Remember the cam lube? It's good stuff, and I use it liberally. The valve train takes it tough on initial start up. It's not unheard of to do damage with a dry start.. so..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps4610d11d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps4610d11d.jpg.html)
What I do is put a dab on the official Ancient Airlines Engine Building Bench, stick my finger in it and apply as necessary.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zps4817aa74.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zps4817aa74.jpg.html)

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zps242feed9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zps242feed9.jpg.html)
Don't forget the thrust washer
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-006_zpsf7f8db48.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-006_zpsf7f8db48.jpg.html)
Or the pin. It takes a while for oil to get up here, and it is heavily loaded, too..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-004_zpsaf9e468d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-004_zpsaf9e468d.jpg.html)
There's a slot in the end of the pin so it can be turned to install the locating bolt.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-007_zps581b824d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-007_zps581b824d.jpg.html)
After it's back together, I set the valves at .006 and .008. Just guessing what it should be. We'll know after running it a bit. Then, liberally squirt the oil/STP mixture anywhere that goes up and down or round and round.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/7-008_zpsef21e016.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/7-008_zpsef21e016.jpg.html)
Valve cover goes on, and this job is done.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/8-009_zps8c00d216.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/8-009_zps8c00d216.jpg.html)
Maybe I should dot his eye? Lucky Phil might blow a gasket, though... ;D :BEER:
Still need to mark the flywheel. I'll do a little research, but will probably mark it the same as the Lario. More tomorrow, probably..
Edit for typo..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on December 18, 2014, 12:01:39 PM
 ;-T

Thanks a million for posting all these updates!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 18, 2014, 12:09:25 PM
;-T

Thanks a million for posting all these updates!

My pleasure, Mike. Just a little payback for all I've learned here. I haven't found much on the small block anywhere..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on December 18, 2014, 12:16:12 PM
;-T

Thanks a million for posting all these updates!

 :+1
My pleasure, Mike. Just a little payback for all I've learned here. I haven't found much on the small block anywhere..

... let alone the Aero small block!

This will likely become the mecca for people looking into the Aero small block.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 18, 2014, 01:09:36 PM
Quote
This will likely become the mecca for people looking into the Aero small block.

Both of us?  ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on December 18, 2014, 02:18:33 PM
Can't wait for your ride impression, after it's all dialed in, of course.  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on December 18, 2014, 02:41:49 PM
So Chuck, instead of all the STP sticky stuff on everything why not just put some oil in the sucker and before you hook up the cam chain and oil pump use a battery drill to drive the pump and prime the whole oil system?
Would probably be a little messy but you could also confirm oil to the heads with the rocker covers off and no dry start. Just a thought.
As for the birds eye.........step away Chuck,step away.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 18, 2014, 03:39:01 PM
Or just block off all breather ports and pressurize the crankcase via the dipstick hole to force oil through. Takes 5 psi or less to do the job.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 18, 2014, 03:43:16 PM
 
Quote
As for the birds eye.........step away Chuck,step away.
;D ;D
Thought that might get your attention.  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 18, 2014, 03:51:30 PM
Or just block off all breather ports and pressurize the crankcase via the dipstick hole to force oil through. Takes 5 psi or less to do the job.

Hmmmm. Normally, I just pull the plugs and crank it until oil pressure comes up. I'm having a hard time visualizing the oil leaving the sump, going through the pump, oil filter, and filling the galleries. Is that what happens?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 18, 2014, 03:59:11 PM
Hmmmm. Normally, I just pull the plugs and crank it until oil pressure comes up. I'm having a hard time visualizing the oil leaving the sump, going through the pump, oil filter, and filling the galleries. Is that what happens?

When the engine is slathered in lube during assembly as you've done, I just pull the plugs and crank until there's pressure too. If I've done just a top-end, someone else rebuilt the engine, the bike has sat for a while, etc., I'll pressurize just to be on the safe side. Pressure will force the oil (slowly) up through everything, but usually I'm doing it on non-filtered engines.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 18, 2014, 04:24:41 PM
When the engine is slathered in lube during assembly as you've done, I just pull the plugs and crank until there's pressure too. If I've done just a top-end, someone else rebuilt the engine, the bike has sat for a while, etc., I'll pressurize just to be on the safe side. Pressure will force the oil (slowly) up through everything, but usually I'm doing it on non-filtered engines.

Ok, thanks for that.
 
Looking at the shop manuals, the Lario is at full advance at 35 degrees, the 750 Targa sez 38 degrees +/-2. I'll put a paint line at 36, and call it good.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on December 19, 2014, 12:01:50 AM
Noice werk Chuck!

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 19, 2014, 06:23:21 AM
Noice werk Chuck!

Pete

Thankya sir.. it'll be embarrassing if it don't werk..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: skippy on December 19, 2014, 04:52:39 PM
Chuck,
this build is way awesome and i can't wait to see how the whole thing turns out. Just for grins I did a search, which led to many more search, on the Guzzi aero derived engine. What I determined is that you sir, are the proud owner of a really rare bird. (pardon the pun.)
I was hoping to find some sort of cache of these hemispherical small block motors that could be turned into some great motorcycle power plants but what I discovered is that you happen to have something about as plentiful as mint scented, rainbow colored, unicorn poop.
One thing I am curious about though is, what is the compression ratio of that motor? It is obviously designed to operate between sea level and what, 20,000 feet? 30,000 feet, maybe more?
Just curious, I am not sure if you had a manual with specifications to go with that hot-rod motor.

Skippy
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: skippy on December 19, 2014, 06:17:10 PM
 :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 19, 2014, 06:50:12 PM
Chuck,
this build is way awesome and i can't wait to see how the whole thing turns out. Just for grins I did a search, which led to many more search, on the Guzzi aero derived engine. What I determined is that you sir, are the proud owner of a really rare bird. (pardon the pun.)
I was hoping to find some sort of cache of these hemispherical small block motors that could be turned into some great motorcycle power plants but what I discovered is that you happen to have something about as plentiful as mint scented, rainbow colored, unicorn poop.
One thing I am curious about though is, what is the compression ratio of that motor? It is obviously designed to operate between sea level and what, 20,000 feet? 30,000 feet, maybe more?
Just curious, I am not sure if you had a manual with specifications to go with that hot-rod motor.

Skippy

Didn't get to play today, but somewhere back in this thread, I think maybe Dogwalker said they supposedly were 9.4 to 1. That would be about what I would expect for running at full throttle for extended periods on 100 LL fuel. It should be fine in a motorcycle on pump gas, and probably could be pumped up some. (Eventually) Manual?? I think the unicorns ran away with them..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 20, 2014, 11:46:32 AM
Drew up something that I could make with the aluminum I have.. meh. I’ll go find a bigger piece of scrap. It’d be just my luck that it would tip over and smack that unguarded section of the valve cover.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps0a4a432d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps0a4a432d.jpg.html)
Ok, let’s mark the initial timing and full advance marks on this flywheel. <mumbling to self> 8.554” X pi.. divided by 360 X 11.. where’s my slide rule?.. some Trig, and I’ll have the oh, yeah, I have a calculator.. well Duh! Just draw it on Cad.. no thinking. No wonder these kids can’t do math any more..  ;D 
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-006_zps783a92de.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-006_zps783a92de.jpg.html)
Less than a minute of cad says the chord of 11 degrees is .820”, and full advance of 36 degrees is 2.643”. I’ll let the machines do the math while I go sit under a tree. They’re better at it.. and faster. <shrug> So, scribe a line .820” BTDC, center punch it
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-010_zpsd6e028f7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-010_zpsd6e028f7.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-008_zps7d537f65.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-008_zps7d537f65.jpg.html)
and a paint pen to make it show up.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-009_zps63af290c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-009_zps63af290c.jpg.html)
Repeat at 36 degrees BTDC.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-007_zpsfa0b15e4.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-007_zpsfa0b15e4.jpg.html)
Why? Well, “The Book” on the Lario sez that there is 25 degrees of advance in the mechanical advance, so setting the initial timing at 11 should give us 36 total.  Road testing will decide just how much is appropriate.
Now, there’s nothing left to do except put it back together. Set it on the box and bolt up the transmission.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/7-011_zps5d1b8ced.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/7-011_zps5d1b8ced.jpg.html)
One last look at the head guard template just to make sure it’s big enough..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/8-013_zpsb5ddb1c9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/8-013_zpsb5ddb1c9.jpg.html)
Roll the rear drive assembly over and fit it up, bolt on the frame rails and drag in the bike..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/9-015_zpsd026e2f6.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/9-015_zpsd026e2f6.jpg.html)
But small block assembly has been covered in the Lario Rehab thread, no need to rehash that. Time to go in and fix lunch. Grandmother was right when she said “A man’s work is from sun to sun, but a woman’s work is never done.”  ;D I’m getting tired of cooking, cleaning, running errands, etc. while Dorcia lays around and eats bon bons.. <running and ducking>  ;)
Edit for typo
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on December 20, 2014, 11:55:21 AM
Chuck, I think the headguards will be cool looking, but I thing they will be stronger if affixed with bolts or bungee cords instead of tape, just sayin buddy.....
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 20, 2014, 12:04:57 PM
Chuck, I think the headguards will be cool looking, but I thing they will be stronger if affixed with bolts or bungee cords instead of tape, just sayin buddy.....

You engineers.. always trying to cause trouble..  ~; :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 20, 2014, 02:41:04 PM
Well, that was easy.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-016_zpsdca71279.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-016_zpsdca71279.jpg.html)
Those heads look the business, don't they?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-018_zpsd558f74a.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-018_zpsd558f74a.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on December 20, 2014, 02:46:31 PM
Now we're gettin sum'eres  ;-T Nice work Chuckie .

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 20, 2014, 03:04:49 PM
Thankya, thankya.  ;D Still waiting for my brand new shiny carburetors. Can't make the intake manifolds until I get em. Still a few things to hook up and fit up the exhaust. It's different than the normal small block.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on December 20, 2014, 03:29:48 PM
Wow! ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on December 20, 2014, 03:37:17 PM
Wow! ;D
:+1

Those heads look sweet.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on December 20, 2014, 04:31:01 PM
I wonder if there's anybody in Mandello reading this thread and enjoying it as much as I am. Ground breaking and fascinating stuff! Thanks so much for showing it, and I can't wait for the first ride report.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on December 20, 2014, 04:46:46 PM
will the gas tank fit over those macho valve covers? 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on December 20, 2014, 04:53:54 PM
I wonder if there's anybody in Mandello reading this thread and enjoying it as much as I am. Ground breaking and fascinating stuff! Thanks so much for showing it, and I can't wait for the first ride report.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 :+1

Guzzi history in the making ;-T


Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: zedXmick on December 20, 2014, 05:03:08 PM
I was looking at this picture and imagining the tachometer sweeping thru the midrange with the bike coming out of a left hand turn,right on the perfect apex....  Thanks for that.... ;D


(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-018_zpsd558f74a.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: charlie b on December 20, 2014, 07:42:37 PM
EGAD!!!  It looks like it is actually going to go back together!!

Nice tutorial too.  Thanks.

Not being as cheap, and not doing engine work as often, I just buy the assembly lubes from NAPA (high pressure version and 'oil' version).  Then I also run the oil pump with a drill and then pull the plugs and use the starter motor.  I like spinning the motor to get the oil to all the right places, not just through the galleries.
 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Turin on December 20, 2014, 08:00:20 PM
This is the coolest thread ever. I find myself checking it 3 times a day. WOW!!! :drool
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on December 20, 2014, 09:19:36 PM
This is the coolest thread ever. I find myself checking it 3 times a day. WOW!!! :drool

 :+1

 ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 21, 2014, 11:31:52 AM
This is a great thread Chuck; doing well!   ;-T  Will look interesting in the Lario frame. Pretty beefy. Gonna make a bobber out of it?  :P
Kevin
Ps. You have any idea the weight difference of that mill vs. the Lario? 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 21, 2014, 01:41:46 PM
This is a great thread Chuck; doing well!   ;-T  Will look interesting in the Lario frame. Pretty beefy. Gonna make a bobber out of it?  :P
Kevin
Ps. You have any idea the weight difference of that mill vs. the Lario? 

Well, I've picked them up and carried them around.  ;D Couldn't tell any difference.. but obviously the aero heads are a little bigger. Couldn't be much.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rumba on December 21, 2014, 02:30:34 PM
Those heads look the business, don't they?

 ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on December 22, 2014, 08:03:28 AM
Cant wait for your first ride report - this is huge - thanks Chuck ;-T
I'd love to hear how it does compared to the stock Lario!

Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 22, 2014, 08:16:33 AM
Grunt factor should be pretty charming in comparison.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on December 24, 2014, 05:48:51 PM
Just thought I would bump up the thread Chuck so you don't have to search to much...... The next installment is eagerly awaited..... :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldmxdog61u on December 24, 2014, 06:23:44 PM
Great work again. Thanks for sharing.
Question. ..
What bar end mirrors are those? Nice!
Question.
I wonder if the tailight will fit on a lm4?
Mine is held together with hot glue...
Again.wow.
Wish I lived closer, I would do a lot of chores for a ride in that tail dragger. :+1
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 25, 2014, 05:40:54 AM
Great work again. Thanks for sharing.
Question. ..
What bar end mirrors are those? Nice!
Question.
I wonder if the tailight will fit on a lm4?
Mine is held together with hot glue...
Again.wow.
Wish I lived closer, I would do a lot of chores for a ride in that tail dragger. :+1

Thanks! CRG mirrors. There *is* a difference between them and the Asian knockoffs. The kid has a connection, so I got em wholesale. (Guzzi content)
I would think the taillight would fit, but it's sort of unobtainium. It's just the old lens like on the SP with sonic welded ears stuck on it to make it look different. Guzzi had *no* money for bling back in the 80s..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on December 25, 2014, 08:01:52 AM
These kind of threads are dangerous, makes ordinary people think they can go out and get a similar bike/motor and build it themselves!  I love it, so thanks for the ride.   :bow
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: sign216 on December 25, 2014, 09:01:17 AM
Chuck, count me as one of your followers in this historic build.
Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 25, 2014, 10:17:14 AM
Chuck, count me as one of your followers in this historic build.
Joe

Gulp. The pressure's on.  ;D Note to self.. screw this up, and your name will go down in infamy..

On a related note. Does anyone know what material the stock Lario exhaust headers are made of?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on December 25, 2014, 11:11:40 AM
Nice work, thanks for posting! When is the roll out ceremony?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on December 25, 2014, 03:31:36 PM
Gulp. The pressure's on.  ;D Note to self.. screw this up, and your name will go down in infamy..

On a related note. Does anyone know what material the stock Lario exhaust headers are made of?

Everything of the Lario era was mild steel with that dreadful 'Black Chrome' that fell to bits in a week I think. If you wanted to keep the original look I'd think ceramic coating would be the best bet. I think that the originals are double walled but you probably know better than me.

Very interesting build Chuck. Oh, and big  ;-T for Dorcia!

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 25, 2014, 04:42:45 PM
Everything of the Lario era was mild steel with that dreadful 'Black Chrome' that fell to bits in a week I think. If you wanted to keep the original look I'd think ceramic coating would be the best bet. I think that the originals are double walled but you probably know better than me.

Very interesting build Chuck. Oh, and big  ;-T for Dorcia!

Pete

Thanks, Pete.. I was wondering because the head pipes on the aero engine are stainless, and I was thinking about cutting them off and welding them to the Lario headers. The exhaust mounts are completely different than anything I've seen on a small or big block. If the Lario headers are mild steel, I'll just make something similar to the aero header and weld it on there. Welding stainless to mild steel is doable, but not for the faint of heart.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on December 25, 2014, 09:15:03 PM

(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/moteur1_300x260.jpg)


Just looking back through this thread and I notice that the heads are 'Back to front' on the drone. That would have to mean that it either uses a 'Back to front' camshaft or it spins in reverse. If it spins the opposite way in the drone what will that imply for oil delivery if you spin it 'Conventionally' as a bike engine? You may well of addressed all this and if so I'm sorry for wasting your time but with such a rare and unusual project it would be a shame to fire it up and have it instantly destroy itself!

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 25, 2014, 09:46:26 PM
Just looking back through this thread and I notice that the heads are 'Back to front' on the drone. That would have to mean that it either uses a 'Back to front' camshaft or it spins in reverse. If it spins the opposite way in the drone what will that imply for oil delivery if you spin it 'Conventionally' as a bike engine? You may well of addressed all this and if so I'm sorry for wasting your time but with such a rare and unusual project it would be a shame to fire it up and have it instantly destroy itself!

Pete

Chuck's engine is the reverse of the one Dogwalker posted:

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/frontview_zpsadf800b1.jpg)

One is a "pusher" and the other a "puller".
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on December 25, 2014, 09:50:58 PM
My brain hurts!  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on December 26, 2014, 07:46:53 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/RQ-5_Hunter_%28drawing%29.png)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on December 26, 2014, 08:06:11 AM
A friend who goes unmentioned, but runs a duc and guzzi biz in sanfransico had a cam from one of the versions of the engine, and it ran reverse, guess there is a correct running version and a backwards version.  Chuck will find out the moment he presses the starter button ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Aaron D. on December 26, 2014, 08:08:42 AM
He not only checked the timing, he replaced the cam-and I believe the oil pump was checked/replaced also. No worries.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 26, 2014, 08:37:34 AM
A friend who goes unmentioned, but runs a duc and guzzi biz in sanfransico had a cam from one of the versions of the engine, and it ran reverse, guess there is a correct running version and a backwards version.  Chuck will find out the moment he presses the starter button ~;

How's she go? Uh, not too well forward, but really gets with it in reverse..  ;D  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 26, 2014, 11:24:52 AM
Ok, back at it.
Since the head is considerably bigger, the exhaust is going to have to be shorter up front to make the rest of it fit up. Doing a little scaling says it needs to be 13/16" shorter compared to the Lario.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zps80ca2188.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zps80ca2188.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps277625da.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps277625da.jpg.html)
Since we now know that the Lario exhaust is mild steel, just cutting the end off the aero engine exhaust and welding it on isn't going to get it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-004_zps091564b6.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-004_zps091564b6.jpg.html)
Rummaged through my good junk pile, and didn't find any suitable mild steel to make it out of, so decided to do something else. Using the cam to turn the cad drawing into code the cnc can understand..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-006_zps2b76d330.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-006_zps2b76d330.jpg.html)
Cutting everything away that doesn't look like a head guard..  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-008_zpsac7c0c2a.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-008_zpsac7c0c2a.jpg.html)
Time for lunch. More later...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 26, 2014, 02:24:01 PM
Need to clear around the bottom two screw holes to make them a little weaker, but other than that, all I need to do is make up a couple of hundred and wait for the orders to come flooding in. What?? Oh. Never mind..   :D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-012_zpsbaab84f5.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-012_zpsbaab84f5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Stormtruck2 on December 26, 2014, 05:38:41 PM
I'd  still take/love/pay for a pair for my other Centauro!!!!! ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 26, 2014, 06:07:12 PM
I'd still a pair for my other Centauro!!!!! ;-T

That's been a long time ago. I'll give it a look, but no guarantees. I never intended on making any more after that one run.

Edit:
The program is long gone, but I *did* find the cad drawing, so it's doable. Have to make a fixture to hold it and get some material.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 26, 2014, 09:09:02 PM
You'd be a hero and peach if you came up with a Lario solution Chuck.  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 27, 2014, 08:54:13 AM
You'd be a hero and peach if you came up with a Lario solution Chuck.  ;-T

That would remind me entirely too much of work.. ;) :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Joaozz on December 29, 2014, 07:52:47 AM
Hello all !
I come up this discussion about aero engine and though that is opportune  to show my Lario that got the very first aero V75 engine that was tested at the beginning of the project by the IAF
My engine were supplied by the guzzi dealer in Israel at that time to test the compatibily on air.
After used and tested it was reintegrated to the dealer and the IAF started to buy the units strait from the factory.
So the dealer decided to take advantage of the 750 engine by adapt it to a Lario base.
It was 1988 or so I think and after a long abandoned years and a total restauration by me it runs fine.
I called it  "Larga" (Lario/Targa  ;D)
Pictures and some explanation can be seen in my blog :
http://targa750.blogspot.co.il/
Samuel

(http://galeon.hispavista.com/joaoxx/img/targa.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on December 29, 2014, 12:43:01 PM
Samual the haeds of yours look more like the targa 750 heads. Not the aero heads
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 29, 2014, 12:51:47 PM
Yes, I think so as well. The Aero heads do not have receding find leading to the plugs/valve covers. I think that is a Targa.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on December 29, 2014, 02:25:26 PM
Perhaps a proof of concept use to prove out that it would work before more investment in the Aero engine...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 29, 2014, 02:40:31 PM
Perhaps a proof of concept use to prove out that it would work before more investment in the Aero engine...

Makes sense. Commonly done..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 29, 2014, 03:13:04 PM
<jumping up and down> Woo Hoo! Looky here! The Kid finally came through and sent me a set of brand new 36mm pumpers, hoses, and hose clamps. (Guzzi content) Cheap. (more Guzzi content)  ;D well, relatively, at any rate.. Now I can start thinking about making up some intakes.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zps102e17da.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zps102e17da.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rumba on December 29, 2014, 05:13:55 PM
there are two things of which I make sure to buy them new, underwear and carburators.  ;D
now get them apart and let us have the idle and mainjet dimensions, Needle and emulsion tube
sizes would be nice as well.
I bet the jets in there are way too small as always, let us help you with that.

 :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 29, 2014, 05:47:21 PM
there are two things of which I make sure to buy them new, underwear and carburators.  ;D
now get them apart and let us have the idle and mainjet dimensions, Needle and emulsion tube
sizes would be nice as well.
I bet the jets in there are way too small as always, let us help you with that.

 :BEER:

I'll do that, but probably not tomorrow.
Edit: deleted some stuff that sounded like I was whining. :) I thought this project would take maybe a month. I'm getting no time to work (play) on it, and it might just take all Winter at the current rate. <shrug> Patience is it's own reward, they say....
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 29, 2014, 10:52:19 PM
The carb stuff is what gets interesting. You'll have to ride it to know what's really going on... or dyno of course to REALLY know what's going on. Yours is such an unknown, but not unlike mine actually. Be curious what you have to start with.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Joaozz on December 30, 2014, 03:11:28 AM
Makes sense. Commonly done..Perhaps a proof of concept use to prove out that it would work before more investment in the Aero engine...
Yes, it is exactly what they have done - after testing this unit the engineers team started the evolutional proccess,
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 30, 2014, 05:50:13 AM
Yes, it is exactly what they have done - after testing this unit the engineers team started the evolutional proccess,

Nice work. I'd have never thought of the turntable lathe.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on December 30, 2014, 06:41:30 AM
Yes, it is exactly what they have done - after testing this unit the engineers team started the evolutional proccess,

So the Israeli Air Force were the original people to say...

"The Guzzi smallblock needs another 10-20 hp."

 ;) ;D

Looks like Guzzi listened to them, could we try and get the IAF to order the V7II? They could ask for another 10-20 hp again...

I like how the Aero story so far revolves around Larios. A cool parallel in my eyes.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on December 30, 2014, 08:51:45 AM
Is there a better sb to revolve around?  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dan_s on January 01, 2015, 02:53:57 AM
So the Israeli Air Force were the original people to say...

"The Guzzi smallblock needs another 10-20 hp."

 ;) ;D

Looks like Guzzi listened to them, could we try and get the IAF to order the V7II? They could ask for another 10-20 hp again...

I like how the Aero story so far revolves around Larios. A cool parallel in my eyes.
Samuel told me that he met people from Israeli Air Industries who actually worked on the Hunter project. They are so secretive that they were reluctant to tell him anything about what was done on the engines even though ~30 years have past.
At least we have Ed Millich.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: sign216 on January 01, 2015, 08:01:03 AM
Samuel told me that he met people from Israeli Air Industries who actually worked on the Hunter project. They are so secretive that they were reluctant to tell him anything about what was done on the engines even though ~30 years have past.
At least we have Ed Millich.

I can imagine military secrets are closely held in Israel.  Too bad, it's a fascinating story.  I was over there a few years ago, but didn't know about the Hunter project at the time.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 01, 2015, 08:47:21 AM
I can imagine military secrets are closely held in Israel.  Too bad, it's a fascinating story.  I was over there a few years ago, but didn't know about the Hunter project at the time.

I would imagine so. I've *looked* for data to no avail. No problem, though.. it's just a Guzzi.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: sign216 on January 01, 2015, 09:05:03 AM
I would imagine so. I've *looked* for data to no avail. No problem, though.. it's just a Guzzi.  ;D

With the differences in culture, it would probably be easier to get info from the Italian side.  Finding the couple of Guzzi engineers that worked on the project might be next to impossible.  Unless you lived in Italy, and simply made finding those guys kind of a hobby.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lawries on January 06, 2015, 08:14:14 AM
Hey Chuck, hope all is well with you and yours.
I'm going cold turkey waiting for the next instalment of this awesome build.  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 06, 2015, 08:29:29 AM
Hey Chuck, hope all is well with you and yours.
I'm going cold turkey waiting for the next instalment of this awesome build.  :BEER:

 ;D ;D Sorry.. haven't had time to play much, I've been Driving Miss Daisy. She only has 4 appointments this week, and fortunately  ;) we had a fair amount of snow last night, and her sister is running her around in their 4 wheel drive. Unfortunately, I have to go to the other shop to run my antique lathe, and I'm not sure I can get there. I did manage to finish up the head guards yesterday, and made a pair for 'Trucks spare Centauro, so I haven't been completely slackin.. ;D :BEER: More later.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 06, 2015, 10:56:46 AM
there are two things of which I make sure to buy them new, underwear and carburators.  ;D
now get them apart and let us have the idle and mainjet dimensions, Needle and emulsion tube
sizes would be nice as well.
I bet the jets in there are way too small as always, let us help you with that.

 :BEER:

Ok, for those of you (and I) that were wondering what's in these carbs. They are what Delorto Direct says are for an 1000SP. Well, that can't be right.. The 1000SP used a 30mm carb, as far as I know.
So, as I tore it down, I first saw a K18 needle, and thought..hmmm that's good.
60/3 slide.  ;-T those things are expensive..(Guzzi content)
130 Main. Fine
50 idle. Ditto
AR268 atomiser. Ok. Guzziology sez he prefers the AB268 for a richer mid range.
This is essentially what is in the LeMans III with a richer main. I'm a happy camper..it'll be plenty close enough to run as is and tune later.. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zps5a200656.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zps5a200656.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on January 06, 2015, 11:04:20 AM
 ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Stormtruck2 on January 06, 2015, 11:07:40 AM
;D ;D Sorry.. haven't had time to play much, I've been Driving Miss Daisy. She only has 4 appointments this week, and fortunately  ;) we had a fair amount of snow last night, and her sister is running her around in their 4 wheel drive. Unfortunately, I have to go to the other shop to run my antique lathe, and I'm not sure I can get there. I did manage to finish up the head guards yesterday, and made a pair for 'Trucks spare Centauro, so I haven't been completely slackin.. ;D :BEER: More later.

Thank you Chuck. :bow  I greatly appreciate it!  Beers on me at the rally!!  IPA if I recall correctly.  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 06, 2015, 11:16:41 AM
Thank you Chuck. :bow  I greatly appreciate it!  Beers on me at the rally!!  IPA if I recall correctly.  :BEER:

IPAs are good. I liked some of that 90 year old Scotch you had at the nationals, too.  ;D  ~;
I'll throw them in the mail tomorrow. Maybe..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on January 06, 2015, 11:26:20 AM
Are you going to give the floats the float test?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 06, 2015, 04:26:38 PM
Are you going to give the floats the float test?

As in flotation test? Are these the leakers?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 06, 2015, 04:50:51 PM
If you remember, I had some big block intake manifolds for 36mm carbs. I was planning on cutting them up and welding them to the aero flanges, but.. the angle wasn't right. The small block frame interferes, along with the starter on the left side. Yes, Martin, I dummied them up using the straight flanges and they seriously interfere with my legs. Maybe not too big a deal with a race bike, but this *may* turn out to be my touring bike as I ..er.. mature.  ;D Either it or the Skorpion tour that I have my eye on.
But I digress..
So I ordered some mandrel bent tubing. Bought a couple of them while I was at it so I'd have plenty to work with. It's cheap.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zps305592d7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zps305592d7.jpg.html)
Indicated the aero flange, and made a cad drawing.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-009_zps5cdec396.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-009_zps5cdec396.jpg.html)
Back in the day, a guy would just paint Dykem blue on the stock, transfer the holes with transfer punches, drill the holes, bolt it to the manifold, scribe around it, band saw the blank out, and finish it on the disc sander.
That's so 20th century.. 
Rummaged through my good junk and didn't find exactly what I wanted. The snow plow had been through, so I ran down to Ed's and looked for the right piece of steel to steal.  ;D :BEER: He didn't have it either. Ok, off to the steel supplier and rummage through their scrap. Neither did they. ::) Thought, "This is going to be expensive, it costs more to cut off a piece of steel than it's worth.." when the counter girl came out and said, "Oh, I didn't know anyone was here. I've already closed the cash register."
Some days it doesn't pay to chew through the straps....
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lawries on January 07, 2015, 12:29:36 AM
Thanks Chuck, feeling much better now :bow
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 07, 2015, 05:09:14 PM
Thanks Chuck, feeling much better now :bow

I'd hate to see a guy with the shakes.  ;D After another day of Driving Miss Daisy.. they called us on the road and said the tests hadn't come in, come back next week..  ::)  I got a couple of hours to continue. Eyeballing, measuring, and making a template for the carb fitup..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zpse75df5d5.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zpse75df5d5.jpg.html)
Putting a metal cutting blade on the band saw. Making blades, etc. is covered on the Lario Rehab thread, no need to rehash that.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps90b531d5.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps90b531d5.jpg.html)
And cutting out the prototype..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zps6a06e408.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zps6a06e408.jpg.html)
Even a blind hog finds an acorn, now and then..  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-005_zpsf25a9436.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-005_zpsf25a9436.jpg.html)
Maybe it could be just a little shorter, but not much. We''ll need a for real flange bolted on the engine for final fit. Starting to make a couple, but the beer o'clock whistle just blew. More tomorrow after yet another trip to Indy..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-006_zpse4d273b9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-006_zpse4d273b9.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dblue on January 07, 2015, 08:04:49 PM
Chuck,
You da Man!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on January 08, 2015, 06:21:38 AM
You might want to black oxide those manifolds. Not expensive. <almost Guzzi content>
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 08, 2015, 06:47:44 AM
You might want to black oxide those manifolds. Not expensive. <almost Guzzi content>

Yeah, I used to black oxide industrial machinery I built back in the day, but the shop that did it is probably closed, too.  >:( It's an industrial waste land around here.. It would look kool..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rumba on January 08, 2015, 07:50:14 AM
Ok, for those of you (and I) that were wondering what's in these carbs.
130 Main. Fine
50 idle. Ditto

the 130 main is a joke, the #50 idle jets will make the engine rpm "float" around 1500,
with no matter how far you turn the idle mixture adjustment screw inwards.

that said, I do not like your manifolds.  They are too long and too much bend inside the frame,
I'd get them way shorter, somewhat straighter, and have the sidecovers altered instead.
I 've built several bikes ( and inlet manifolds ) by myself so far, this is not the way I would do it.

get bigger jets, you know you want to.
we run 58/60 pilot jets and mains from 142 to 150, at sea level.

 :BEER:

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 08, 2015, 07:57:19 AM
the 130 main is a joke, the #50 idle jets will make the engine rpm "float" around 1500,
with no matter how far you turn the idle mixture adjustment screw inwards.

that said, I do not like your manifolds.  They are too long and too much bend inside the frame,
I'd get them way shorter, somewhat straighter, and have the sidecovers altered instead.
I 've built several bikes ( and inlet manifolds ) by myself so far, this is not the way I would do it.

get bigger jets, you know you want to.
we run 58/60 pilot jets and mains from 142 to 150, at sea level.

 :BEER:

I'm not thrilled about them, either.. but.. if they are shorter they'll seriously foul the starter. Side covers aren't a problem.


Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 08, 2015, 08:18:41 AM
What atomizer is in there?  I've got 65 idle, 264 atom, 168 main and I'm just coming off lean on super Lario. With 265 atom my 150 main was too great below wot.
36 carbies

I suspect you'll need more fuel. A little interference with starter is fine. Maybe think Valeo for size or a little tilting with the Bosch in place.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on January 08, 2015, 08:41:04 AM
I reckon that guestimating the jetting for carbs on an engine that has never run carbs and is not like any other guzzi is a bit premature. fire it up and see what it needs.  You are in uncharted territory here Chuck, unless you can download "Jetting carbs for an FI Aero Engine for dummies" I think you have to get it running to make much progress on carbs... Just sayin, and you know my expansive background in this sort of thing.... ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 08, 2015, 10:21:35 AM
I reckon that guestimating the jetting for carbs on an engine that has never run carbs and is not like any other guzzi is a bit premature. fire it up and see what it needs.  You are in uncharted territory here Chuck, unless you can download "Jetting carbs for an FI Aero Engine for dummies" I think you have to get it running to make much progress on carbs... Just sayin, and you know my expansive background in this sort of thing.... ;D
Absolutely correct! 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lawries on January 08, 2015, 10:43:09 AM
Don't recall where I got the idea but I have believed for a long time that long inlet manifolds were a good thing? No matter the aesthetics. My forgetery is much better than it used to be :D
I guess you folks will give me the low down but:

1) plenty time for air/fuel mix
2) cooler carbs
3) more consistent air flow, maybe?

Does anyone here use the vacuum gauge hole to link the inlet manifolds? For balance, even fuelling, after normal balance process ofc
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on January 08, 2015, 10:55:21 AM
Don't recall where I got the idea but I have believed for a long time that long inlet manifolds were a good thing? No matter the aesthetics. My forgetery is much better than it used to be :D
I guess you folks will give me the low down but:

1) plenty time for air/fuel mix
2) cooler carbs
3) more consistent air flow, maybe?

Does anyone here use the vacuum gauge hole to link the inlet manifolds? For balance, even fuelling, after normal balance process ofc

The basic rule of thumb is longer intake runners improve low rpm performance and the torque curve, while short intake runners improve high rpm performance and horsepower curve.

Then you get all off into optimum diameter for the length, etc., etc.

A Guzzi engine might benefit from longer runners, but the problem is then where to put the carbs.

 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 08, 2015, 11:09:27 AM
I was going to post on this, but I see Rocker beat me to it. All engines are different, of course, but in general, longer runners increase bottom end torque. Airplane engines use extremely long runners, for instance. Remember the Mopar cross ram?
That said, I'll go with what I have right now. As far as tuning.. I'm sure it will run well enough with what is in the cabs to *start* tuning.
Back from today's Driving Miss Daisy.. Woo Hoo! I get to spend all afternoon in the shop.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 08, 2015, 11:14:43 AM
I was going to post on this, but I see Rocker beat me to it. All engines are different, of course, but in general, longer runners increase bottom end torque. Airplane engines use extremely long runners, for instance. Remember the Mopar cross ram?
That said, I'll go with what I have right now. As far as tuning.. I'm sure it will run well enough with what is in the cabs to *start* tuning.
Back from today's Driving Miss Daisy.. Woo Hoo! I get to spend all afternoon in the shop.  ;D

 ;-T

Nobody has been "down this road before" so the usual "rules" may not apply.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on January 08, 2015, 12:06:32 PM
and I can hardly wait to see a dyno sheet!

 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rumba on January 08, 2015, 01:50:55 PM
this is a standard 750cc two cylinder 4 stroke engine after all.
the jets are too small, remember my words, when you start it up
and it will not even idle properly, once the choke is put back in.

 :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: bad Chad on January 08, 2015, 02:47:31 PM
I don't mean to be a dick here, but I am what I am  ;), when is this here project going to be subject to ignition?

After so many pages, don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but I get confused over distance plus time, when can a mere watcher like me expect Judgment Day on this?

All the best,
bad Chad
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 08, 2015, 03:57:32 PM
this is a standard 750cc two cylinder 4 stroke engine after all.

The jetting is for a 949 cc two cylinder 4 stroke engine after all.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on January 08, 2015, 04:03:30 PM
Don't recall where I got the idea but I have believed for a long time that long inlet manifolds were a good thing? No matter the aesthetics. My forgetery is much better than it used to be :D
I guess you folks will give me the low down but:

1) plenty time for air/fuel mix
2) cooler carbs
3) more consistent air flow, maybe?

Does anyone here use the vacuum gauge hole to link the inlet manifolds? For balance, even fuelling, after normal balance process ofc
Apart from the obvious purpose of an intake manifold a long intake manifold also needs to atomise the intake charge via heat.
The problem with long intake runners that arn't heated is that the fuel droplets fall out of suspension and the engine has variable mixture. This is why most cars with longer runners have heated manifolds and also why long manifold engines seem cold blooded on start up and need a lot of time on the choke. Until the manifold is up to temp the fuel tends to drop out of suspension and pools in the manifold causing poor mixture control.Choke is added to compensate for the fuel thats fallen out of suspension and cant effectivley be burned. Its a bit of a viscious circle. All things being equal its one of the advantages of multi carb engines with short runners, there's very little manifold that requires bringing up to temp so generally they require less time on the choke. Applies to carbed and injected engines but carbed are more sensitive to intake length. The closer the venturi is in a carbed engine to the intake valve generally the better. Greater signal strength to the jets.
Ciao  
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 08, 2015, 04:25:37 PM
I don't mean to be a dick here, but I am what I am  ;), when is this here project going to be subject to ignition?

After so many pages, don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but I get confused over distance plus time, when can a mere watcher like me expect Judgment Day on this?

All the best,
bad Chad

Chad, my man.. it should have been done a long time ago. I expected it to take a month of spare but pretty regular time. Dorcia's surgeries/rehab, etc. has taken most of it. Today was the first time I had 4 hours. I actually got something done.  ;D
It'll be done when it's done, but starting today I'll get a lot more time to work on it as long as Ed doesn't come up with a (yuck) job.  ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rumba on January 08, 2015, 04:55:41 PM
The jetting is for a 949 cc two cylinder 4 stroke engine after all.

works well with 850cc too  ;D  the carb has got no idea to which engine it has been mounted anyways.  ;)
after all, compression ratio is more important than cc's, the bogus stock setting does work only with
stock pipes, airbox and at serious altitude I believe.

 :pop




Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 08, 2015, 05:28:57 PM
Ok, let's make the flanges. I'm using what I found, which is some hot rolled steel .320" thick. Since this isn't a union shop.. ;D ~; I can run two machines at a time. While the robot is cutting out the flange, I'm grinding the first one flat. Actually, I need to see my committeeman.. the boss only gives me $40 and three beers a week for labor in her operation.  ;D :BEER:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpscb47cccd.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpscb47cccd.jpg.html)
Nice and flat.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsbc4abc36.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsbc4abc36.jpg.html)
Might as well use the kool O rings. The groove is .111" dp. X .175" wide.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps65ad26a5.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps65ad26a5.jpg.html)
Cutting the O ring groove.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zps3c3e2aaf.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zps3c3e2aaf.jpg.html)
Alrighty, now!
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zps576d29a4.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zps576d29a4.jpg.html)
This is fun.   ;D I love to make stuff. Mostly I do stupid production work that keeps the woof from the door. Not fun. Tomorrow, we'll do the final fitup and weld the manifolds.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on January 08, 2015, 06:43:02 PM
Lovely work chuck
my 2c
Long manifolds
we built a hot 120cc XR100 for my son to race enduros against 2 stroke 85cc, really against all odds. My mate Greg (since passed RIP) did the head and built manifold about 8" long (but dead straight) we ran a 30mm PHF, I forget jetting but it would pull up any hill in any gear. He won some rounds and got second in State champs, I remain convinced of value, never tried on Guzzi as I have grunt from nowhere already. As said above it may run out of steam up top but we never had a cold start / running issue, one kick, normal warm up, go.
Curve is maybe going to restrict a bit much but you can only try, looks hard to get to LH enrichener lever.


Jetting is not what it seems ie 40mm PHM on 850 LM mains at 165-175 (IMHE) will drown a 950 , 992 even more so, happy around 150, on my 1100 Cali even less
So I'd expect your 750 to want more fuel than an 850 or 950 not less, but agree with all start with what you have.


Looking forward to more, if manifolds make it untuneable, I'm sure you'll knock up more (or suffer the orig straight ones)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on January 08, 2015, 06:56:16 PM
Nice to see an old school depth gage used - next you'll be telling me I'm not the only one who knows how to use vernier instruments.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 08, 2015, 07:10:49 PM
Nice to see an old school depth gage used - next you'll be telling me I'm not the only one who knows how to use vernier instruments.

Old school??? Couldn't be. I bought it new..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on January 08, 2015, 08:45:08 PM
Thank You Chuck
Love this thread!  ;-T

The journey is 90% of the reward, so don't listen to bad impatient Chad - I am willing to wait for the start up!  ;D

That looks like a Starrett protractor.  My machinist grandfather used Starrett micrometers and someday I hope to inherit them.  Wish I had half the skills exhibited here!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on January 08, 2015, 09:36:43 PM
This is all so far above my pay grade it scares me to open the thread  ::) Nice work Chuckie , even for a beemer hater  ;D

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on January 08, 2015, 09:41:52 PM
Old school is that old Sharp calculator!   :bow
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on January 08, 2015, 09:43:53 PM
Old school is that old Sharp calculator!   :bow
Reverse Polish?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on January 08, 2015, 09:47:25 PM
Nope. Has an equal sign.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: bad Chad on January 08, 2015, 10:26:40 PM
Wow. Now I really do feel like a duffus.  But that's my own doing, I need to learn some patience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on January 08, 2015, 10:46:17 PM
 ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 09, 2015, 05:49:37 AM
Old school is that old Sharp calculator!   :bow

 ;D I programmed that sucker in Basic back in the 80s, I think. It has several things that I used to use regularly such as triangle solving, tilt and rotate for compound angles, metric to Merican, etc. When the battery dies  :o I'm screwed. I wouldn't go to that trouble again, and don't remember the language.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 09, 2015, 05:56:47 AM
the 130 main is a joke, the #50 idle jets will make the engine rpm "float" around 1500,
with no matter how far you turn the idle mixture adjustment screw inwards.

that said, I do not like your manifolds.  They are too long and too much bend inside the frame,
I'd get them way shorter, somewhat straighter, and have the sidecovers altered instead.
I 've built several bikes ( and inlet manifolds ) by myself so far, this is not the way I would do it.

get bigger jets, you know you want to.
we run 58/60 pilot jets and mains from 142 to 150, at sea level.

 :BEER:



This is from my maintenance records when I rejetted the Strada. It is 1000cc with the 36 pumpers..

Quote
2-2-11   . Changed to: K18 needle with clip on 3rd notch, idle jet 50, main jet 142, needle jet 268AB. If mileage suffers, Charles from LC says heís running the same setup with 52 idle, stock 130 main, 6mm cutaway.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on January 09, 2015, 09:18:54 AM
I got hooked on RPN in college so I keep my HP's batteries. Bought RPN calc. apps for the iPad/iPhone too. And laptop. Just too easy to keep going with RPN (kinda guzzi content).  :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 09, 2015, 11:17:53 AM
Finished up the flanges this morning, Chad.  ;D Yesterday evening I was stewing about how to make a smooth transition from the ID of the intake runner to the diameter of the intake port in the head. That is what I was using the handheld computer for.. solving a triangle. It said I needed to cut a 26.2 degree angle. I could bump it out on the cnc, but it wouldn't be smooth. I could go down to the other shop, crank the head of a Bridgeport over to 26 degrees, and cut it on a rotary table, but that would take forever..and.. it's cold and blowing up a storm.
So, I decided to do it on my toy lathe.  ;D moved over to the center of the flange and blew a 1 1/2 end mill through the fixture so I could hold it in the little 3 jaw chuck.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps822738ad.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps822738ad.jpg.html)
Then  I set the cross slide on 26 degrees, and took light cuts. A "real" lathe could have done it in one pass, but this little sucker did fine taking .005-.010" cuts. Patience, grasshopper.  ;D These little lathes "can' do nice work.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsff4ea100.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsff4ea100.jpg.html)
Now we have a register for the tubing to sit in and a smooth transition down to the head.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-007_zps8dd222b7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-007_zps8dd222b7.jpg.html)
Time for final fitup and welding after lunch.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 09, 2015, 03:23:21 PM
Well, I fussed, figured, fooled around, and measured some more. Brought in the new Valeo from the Aero engine hoping it was smaller. Nope, it's bigger.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zpsd78c4446.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zpsd78c4446.jpg.html)
Oh well, there's a time in every project when a guy needs to shoot the engineer and commence production.  ;D Normally, I'd just go up to the house and drag Dorcia down to be a portable welding fixture, but in her delicate condition I didn't have the heart. She'd have done it, but I rigged up a way of temporarily holding things while I tacked it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-009_zpsdbed7871.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-009_zpsdbed7871.jpg.html)
Finally. Tacked and it looks like there might even be room for some kind of air cleaners. That would be good..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-011_zps1dc49157.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-011_zps1dc49157.jpg.html)
I've mentioned before that if you look for trouble in an old machine you'll find it. Right? I saw some of my new two year old paint missing, looked above it and there's the brake master cylinder. It was low on fluid. I suppose it's cracked.. <sigh>
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on January 09, 2015, 03:27:39 PM
Ah, somebody else who knows the proper application of the phrase " shoot the engineer ". Too bad about the master cylinder.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on January 09, 2015, 05:33:40 PM
Just wondering, are you keeping a record of the hours you are working on the project?

It would be an interesting point for the average guy to know how much it would cost to get someone like you to do it.

& Wouldn't you get even more room for air cleaners if you shorten the intake manifolds?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: sl0rider on January 09, 2015, 06:25:54 PM
Chuck, just wanted to say that despite only understanding about 7% of what you are doing, I'm loving following your work, and especially reading your writing about it! Thanks for taking the time to share it!

Also, all the very best for you and Dorcia. My 9 year old son has about six weeks to go before his cancer treatment is complete, after close to a year of it, and we will be very thankful that it's over and hoping that there is no recurrence. We also have friends, the wife with breast cancer. It's a tough process to go through and I really feel for both of you. Wishing you well.

Paul
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 09, 2015, 06:29:24 PM
Just wondering, are you keeping a record of the hours you are working on the project?

It would be an interesting point for the average guy to know how much it would cost to get someone like you to do it.

& Wouldn't you get even more room for air cleaners if you shorten the intake manifolds?


Not very many hours so far, I'm going to guess about 30-35 spread out over an hour here an hour there, but I wouldn't consider doing it for someone else. I spent 12 years building an airplane for someone else. Everyone is allowed one lapse in judgement.  ;D
I would have *loved* to shorten the intake manifolds. That's what I spent most of the time today trying to do. The carb on the s'not dis side is just too big to clear the starter, no matter what I tried. As it is, there is *just* enough room for the choke cable to clear the frame.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 09, 2015, 06:37:06 PM
Chuck, just wanted to say that despite only understanding about 7% of what you are doing, I'm loving following your work, and especially reading your writing about it! Thanks for taking the time to share it!

Also, all the very best for you and Dorcia. My 9 year old son has about six weeks to go before his cancer treatment is complete, after close to a year of it, and we will be very thankful that it's over and hoping that there is no recurrence. We also have friends, the wife with breast cancer. It's a tough process to go through and I really feel for both of you. Wishing you well.

Paul

Thanks, Paul. I'm glad you're enjoying the thread.  ;D WE will be fine.  ;D She's a tough old bird <looking over shoulder> and improving every day..
Best of luck to you and your kid. That would be really tough..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on January 09, 2015, 06:48:58 PM
Nice to see an old school depth gage used - next you'll be telling me I'm not the only one who knows how to use vernier instruments.

My favorite 6 and 12 inch calipers are verniers made by Scherr-Tumico, and have 0.050" vernier scales rather than the more common 0.025" ones.  The other side is metric and the vernier covers a full millimeter.  After using dial calipers and digital calipers, the benefit of not having to keep checking zero far outweighs having to read the vernier.

I'm patiently waiting for the dyno curves too, Chuck.   :)

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 09, 2015, 07:38:45 PM
My favorite 6 and 12 inch calipers are verniers made by Scherr-Tumico, and have 0.050" vernier scales rather than the more common 0.025" ones.  The other side is metric and the vernier covers a full millimeter.  After using dial calipers and digital calipers, the benefit of not having to keep checking zero far outweighs having to read the vernier.

I'm patiently waiting for the dyno curves too, Chuck.   :)



Verniers? Gots em. 24 inch calipers & Height gauge. Dyno?? Forget that. Costs money..I'll give you a seat of the pants dyno report, though.  ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on January 09, 2015, 07:47:01 PM
Verniers? Gots em. 24 inch calipers...

If I have something to measure that's 24" long, I just use my 12" caliper twice.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on January 09, 2015, 08:31:42 PM
I have 12 inches but I don't use it as a rule.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Muzz on January 09, 2015, 11:20:13 PM
12" = 1 foot. I got two of them! ;D

Great thread Chuck. Really enjoying your approach and really appreciate your engineering skills.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: charlie b on January 10, 2015, 09:17:26 AM
As usual this is great work.

I also like my mimi lathe and will get a smaller mill one of these days.  The 12x36 and larger mill just were too big for my small shop.  And I found most of my work was in smaller stuff anyway.

I also inherited my wife's grandfather's measuring tools, and the oak chest he used.  All are Starrett.  Nice stuff.  He was the guy who kept all the saw blades sharp at the piano factory.  First and only time I ever saw a left and right handed hammer set.  (for tuning round saw blades)
.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 10, 2015, 10:47:56 AM
As usual this is great work.

I also like my mimi lathe and will get a smaller mill one of these days.  The 12x36 and larger mill just were too big for my small shop.  And I found most of my work was in smaller stuff anyway.

I also inherited my wife's grandfather's measuring tools, and the oak chest he used.  All are Starrett.  Nice stuff.  He was the guy who kept all the saw blades sharp at the piano factory.  First and only time I ever saw a left and right handed hammer set.  (for tuning round saw blades)
.

I've mentioned before that having the proper tool is more than half the job.. all my machinist tools are Starrett and Lufkin. Yeah, they're antiques, too.. along with the boxes they go in.  ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 10, 2015, 03:32:42 PM
Just bought a nice new 17" floor drill press today with some nice spindle travel... at a good discount (GC).  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Muzz on January 11, 2015, 03:06:58 AM
A mill is what my shed is missing now. The welder I got on Trademe last year works beautifully; combination MIG/Tig /stick.

However, I think it would be a case of  :wife: if I push for that at this stage after my years spending spree. :D Must admit Chuck, it is nice having the gear. ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 12, 2015, 11:44:25 AM
As the line goes, "A man has got to know his limitations."  ;D Since I had cataract surgery and bifocal implants, my eyes are now very slow to adapt to changing light conditions. My delicate arc welding days are over. When you strike an arc on thin wall tubing, you had better be able to see the puddle or your day will take a down turn.  ;) It's 3 or 4 seconds before I can see what is happening. Off to see my gearhead friend Scott, who runs Speedcraft welding and fabrication.  He does fussy things for me like repairing aluminum aircraft fuel tanks. After the usual preliminaries,  ;D he said, " I hear through the grapevine that you have a Monocoupe project.. that's my favorite airplane. How about I weld these up for you and bring them out tomorrow and have a look?" Nice work, as usual.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps9662e796.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps9662e796.jpg.html)
I'd taken the machining fixture to bolt it down on while welding, and it barely warped.  ;-T
While he was in the shop, I showed him my stainless exhaust flanges and mild steel exhaust. Asked him if he could weld them, too. "Sure. I'm going racing out west tomorrow, but I'll be back later in the week." Alrighty, now. That'll save me some hassle. I'll just saw these suckers off..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-004_zps64a451c7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-004_zps64a451c7.jpg.html)
Counterbore them for a light tap fit on the exhaust pipe, do a little calculatin on how much exhaust pipe to cut off..  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-005_zpse1aee1ef.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-005_zpse1aee1ef.jpg.html)
Bead blast.. TIG absolutely hates contamination.. DON'T forget to put the clamp on..  :o and it's ready to weld.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-006_zpse9e05a42.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-006_zpse9e05a42.jpg.html)
Time to start figuring out what I need for throttle cables.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: bad Chad on January 12, 2015, 04:13:15 PM
You go Chuck!  A man with your hair can do anyting!! :)  :BEER: 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 12, 2015, 06:15:27 PM
You go Chuck!  A man with your hair can do anyting!! :)  :BEER: 

True.. true..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: charlie b on January 13, 2015, 08:44:20 AM
I understand about the puddle and light and eyes.  Would MIG not have worked?  It seems less dependent on that startup 'blackout' I get when striking an arc.  I have also been known to 'cheat'.  Start the bead on the thicker flange part and run it to where the thinner metal joins.  Ugly but it has worked for me.  Grinding wheel is my friend :)  Especially for not so good welding skills.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 13, 2015, 09:12:01 AM
I understand about the puddle and light and eyes.  Would MIG not have worked?  It seems less dependent on that startup 'blackout' I get when striking an arc.  I have also been known to 'cheat'.  Start the bead on the thicker flange part and run it to where the thinner metal joins.  Ugly but it has worked for me.  Grinding wheel is my friend :)  Especially for not so good welding skills.

Don't have MIG any more. I sold it when I stole  ;D the Miller 351 many years ago. Yeah, I can still weld thick stuff with it, I just strike an arc, wait wait, AHAH..there's the puddle.. but on thin stuff that I don't want to warp with too much heat I'll swallow my pride and call in the pro. Same on the exhaust. I could braze stainless to mild steel, but it takes someone that knows what they are doing to TIG weld it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 15, 2015, 11:27:37 AM
Yesterday morning before Driving Miss Daisy to her last appointment with the oncologist  ;D ;D she'll be on Tamoxifen for 5 years, and should be ok.. ;D ;D Thanks for all the well wishes by the way.. it's meant a lot. I decided to see what it would take to put the chin fairing on. I know.. it's a PITA because you have to take it off to change the oil filter, which means you have to drop the exhaust down.. ::) but it's another of the 80s sportbike styling cues that I like. <shrug>
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps472e960c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps472e960c.jpg.html)

 The Aero engine sump is about 1/2 inch deeper, so I'll have to make new mounts for the fairing.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zps3feb31f1.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zps3feb31f1.jpg.html)
Now if I joined the 21st century <snapping suspenders> I'd just take this file to someone with a laser, and it would be done. That would cost something, though (Guzzi content) so, I'll just cut them on the mill.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-004_zps7a5f49a7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-004_zps7a5f49a7.jpg.html)
Looking at Guzziology, Dave says that the perfect throttle cables for the 36mm carbs on a Lario are the standard cables for the early Euro T5 p/n 28 11 75 00. No problemo, I'll just get some. I hate fooling with throttle cables. Uh, searching for that part number reveals zilch. Nada. So, I did some careful measuring (I hope) cut off the end of the cable, pulled it back out of the way and shortened the housing. Stopped by the big bicycle shop in Indy while Driving Miss Daisy, and bought a couple of cable ends and ferrules. 54 cents. (Guzzi content)  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-005_zps6e9cdf1c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-005_zps6e9cdf1c.jpg.html)
Still need to stop by Stan the hardware man's place and get 4 thin metric nuts to silver solder on the back of the fairing mounts.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on January 15, 2015, 01:01:50 PM
well not so hard to find:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-28117500-Throttle-Cable-NOS-MG1837-/371137922493
http://www.harpermoto.com/03-throttle-cable.html
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 15, 2015, 05:11:24 PM
Hmm, looked at M.I. and M.G. oh well, no matter, I've already cut the housings. Found some 1/8" brass, a needle from an old Posa airplane carb that I'd been experimenting with 30 years ago.  ::) Probably it would be more useful being a Lario carb part. The cable is .051", so I drilled .055" and countersank both ends. Tiny little stuff, this...
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zps0f112662.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zps0f112662.jpg.html)
Plugged in my antique (naturally) soldering iron to warm up while I was putting the little brass pieces on the cables and sticking a scriber in the end to flare out the cable.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zps47e2f069.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zps47e2f069.jpg.html)
 What's up with this? The soldering iron isn't getting hot? Opened up the plug.
[(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zpsc16f8bc0.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zpsc16f8bc0.jpg.html)
Felt like I was in an Ichibon how not to do it video.  ;D The iron was an antique when I bought it, so you can't blame me for this one.. ;) Rummaged through my good electrical junk box and found a plug that might be a tad better.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-013_zps85ca5b4c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-013_zps85ca5b4c.jpg.html)
Most problems with soldering is having an iron that just doesn't have enough heat. The other is the wrong kind of flux. Work like this calls for acid core solder and acid flux. Apply heat to one side of the piece, and solder to the other. It will flow by capillary action, and give a good joint.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-010_zpsda90c134.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-010_zpsda90c134.jpg.html)
That'll finish up the throttle cables. Total cost? Still 54 cents.  ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on January 15, 2015, 05:44:09 PM
That is how I work, gotta fix stuff before I can get on the project at hand.  Love it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 16, 2015, 08:53:52 PM
Ya know, I was thinking that probably I might need to eventually tune these carbs. It would be handy to be able to put my carb sticks on and balance them.. so while I was at Stan's, I picked up a couple of grease fittings. I don't know why I knew that they were vacuum ports in disguise.. probably read it here. So.. I used my Ichybon Bad Ass Cafe Racer Multi tool (you Are a fan, right)  ;D to hold them while I made sparks. Sparks are important when you are building a Bad Ass Cafe Racer. I've seen it on the internet.  ;D :BEER:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsa7c20bf9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsa7c20bf9.jpg.html)
Here's what is inside.
Just a spring and a check ball. Be prepared for the spring to jump into the snag grinder as it breaks through. No big deal.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsfc8da21c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsfc8da21c.jpg.html)
Eyeballed where it needed to be, center punched, drilled #3, a tap drill for 1/4-28, and tapped..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-004_zps73f2876a.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-004_zps73f2876a.jpg.html)
Ta da..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-005_zpsf731b312.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-005_zpsf731b312.jpg.html)
That would probably be good enough, but a little silver solder will make sure. When I got this jar of flux, I thought it would be a lifetime supply. Maybe it was more than enough.. ::)  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-012_zpsd41ad524.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-012_zpsd41ad524.jpg.html)
At any rate, silver soldering has to be clean to work. Bead blast is good, then apply the flux liberally. Oxyacetylene torch with a little excess acetylene feather. Keep the heat on the thickest part and don't take the flame away. That keeps the impurities out. Dip the silver solder in the flux, and just touch what you want to solder before it gets to be a dull red. It'll flow out and you are done.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-015_zpsd45de577.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-015_zpsd45de577.jpg.html)
Takes considerably less time to do it than to tell about it.  ;) Excess flux looks like glass and can be removed with water. Bead blast after, and it's ready for paint.
While I was at Stan's the hardware mans, I picked up some 6 mm nuts and bolts to weld to the chin fairing mounts. Unfortunately, he didn't have anything but plated hardware. You *don't* want to weld plated stuff.. heavy metals that go straight to your liver. Trust me. So.. back to the bead blast cabinet to get rid of the plating.
Ready to weld the nuts on..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/8-014_zps286db5d8.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/8-014_zps286db5d8.jpg.html)
Even my vision challenged eyes will be able to do this one. Soldering here is not a good idea. It wold flow right into the threads and make an "assembly.''  ;D
I *love* making stuff.
Oh, while the manifolds are off, I don't think I've shown the inside of the head. It's very well done, but hard to take a photo of. Using my flashlight and camera flash, you can sorta see. Luigi or his cousin has been at it with abrasive mops and a die grinder. It's not just a bare casting.  ;-T
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-007_zps78aafcbc.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-007_zps78aafcbc.jpg.html)
More tomorrow. Don't change that channel.. ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 16, 2015, 10:04:38 PM
What's the matter Chuck; don't trust your ears?  :P
Nice job. Purty intakes. You may have to get some real brakes on that bike now. Ever thought about 2 pots up front?  Easy peasy for you. I've got the recipe if you want it. Just mentioning during this moment of weakness for you thinking a little outside the box and all from stock.
 ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 17, 2015, 06:28:20 AM
What's the matter Chuck; don't trust your ears?  :P
Nice job. Purty intakes. You may have to get some real brakes on that bike now. Ever thought about 2 pots up front?  Easy peasy for you. I've got the recipe if you want it. Just mentioning during this moment of weakness for you thinking a little outside the box and all from stock.
 ;-T

The brakes are fine. I can lock up the front.. how much more do you need? <shrug> It'll never see a track anyway.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 17, 2015, 11:46:28 AM
You may have to get some real brakes on that bike now. Ever thought about 2 pots up front?  Easy peasy for you. I've got the recipe if you want it. Just mentioning during this moment of weakness for you thinking a little outside the box and all from stock.
 ;-T

"2 pots"? The stock F05s are already 2 pistons per caliper.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 17, 2015, 12:50:49 PM
"2 pots"? The stock F05s are already 2 pistons per caliper.
Ok... 4 pistons/2pots when looking at them. 21st century braking.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 17, 2015, 12:56:35 PM
The brakes are fine. I can lock up the front.. how much more do you need? <shrug> It'll never see a track anyway.
Think surface area Chuck. Lock-up can kill you. I can lock drum brakes but don't prefer having to go that far. I respect your opinion however.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 17, 2015, 01:04:58 PM
Think surface area Chuck. Lock-up can kill you. I can lock drum brakes but don't prefer having to go that far. I respect your opinion however.

I don't use the brakes much on the street, even in the California canyons. I don't see much reason for upgrading the brakes for the way I ride. The front end could use some help, though. I'm thinking out loud here, but maybe Gixxer.. (there are tons of those available, cheap)  ;) if I *really* like this bike after getting the engine sorted. Probably not, though. I have other irons in the fire.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 17, 2015, 01:13:27 PM
I don't use the brakes much on the street, even in the California canyons. I don't see much reason for upgrading the brakes for the way I ride. The front end could use some help, though. I'm thinking out loud here, but maybe Gixxer.. (there are tons of those available, cheap)  ;) if I *really* like this bike after getting the engine sorted. Probably not, though. I have other irons in the fire.
Yep... You'll just have to see where it takes you. I understand. You may find you want to run a little faster than before with this mill which is why I threw it out there.  ;)
Looks like Ed has 35mm Marzzochi Allazzurra's laying around if you ever want to go there.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: charlie b on January 17, 2015, 04:41:05 PM
How are you going to seal up your air intake ports?  I use those same type zerk fittings but got metric ones to fit the ports in the stock manifold.

Thanks for the info on the MIG.  I am still trying to decide if I want to buy a MIG or TIG.  I guess I doubt my ability to TIG weld well since it has been so long since I did it.  I know my arc skills have deteriorated a lot and I was never good with a torch.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 17, 2015, 07:23:17 PM
How are you going to seal up your air intake ports?  I use those same type zerk fittings but got metric ones to fit the ports in the stock manifold.

Thanks for the info on the MIG.  I am still trying to decide if I want to buy a MIG or TIG.  I guess I doubt my ability to TIG weld well since it has been so long since I did it.  I know my arc skills have deteriorated a lot and I was never good with a torch.

I dunno. I suppose that some of those rubber thingies (technical term) will fit the zerk fittings. MIG is easier than TIG, but not as versatile, IMHO. I can still handle a torch, and more importantly.. see the puddle.  ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 17, 2015, 07:30:50 PM
Forgot to show today's progress. It was a short day, but got a little something done. Hooked up the carbs and chokes. Primed the chin fairing mounts and intake manifolds with zinc chromate. That is what is used to prime aircraft, and is *really* good stuff. I've seen 70 year old aircraft tubing that still looks good, and they normally sit in unheated hangers with concrete floors, sweating like a pig.  :o Don't even think of spraying it without a respirator, though...
No picture, but pretend everything was green.  ;D
Ran errands all afternoon while the chromate was drying. Went out after dinner and rattle canned the parts. They're dangling off the heat pump as we type.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsa1b39849.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsa1b39849.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on January 17, 2015, 09:25:33 PM
I dunno. I suppose that some of those rubber thingies (technical term) will fit the zerk fittings. MIG is easier than TIG, but not as versatile, IMHO. I can still handle a torch, and more importantly.. see the puddle.  ;)

You could try hooking them together with a bit of fuel hose to act as a balancer.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Muzz on January 17, 2015, 10:13:08 PM
I am assuming Chuck that that heatpump up in the ceiling does your house as well and not just the garage!!! :o

Enjoying the thread. ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on January 18, 2015, 01:46:23 AM
So Chuck what are you going to use to seal off the carb balancing fittings?

Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 18, 2015, 10:55:01 AM
So Chuck what are you going to use to seal off the carb balancing fittings?

Ciao

How about this, Phil?  ~; :BEER:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zps8ad78766.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zps8ad78766.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 18, 2015, 10:57:20 AM
I am assuming Chuck that that heatpump up in the ceiling does your house as well and not just the garage!!! :o

Enjoying the thread. ;-T

Thanks, Muzz..
It's a very small heat pump with a high efficiency gas furnace hooked up to it as a backup. Just heats the shop.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 18, 2015, 12:01:07 PM
Ok, finally going together. Put on the O ring..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsaa751219.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsaa751219.jpg.html)
Mount the chin fairing and torque the through bolt for the last time.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zps6ee09b2c.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zps6ee09b2c.jpg.html)
Beginning to look like the real thing.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-005_zps63c49635.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-005_zps63c49635.jpg.html)
I love it when a plan comes together.  ;D Basically waiting for Scott to get back from racin so he can weld the exhaust, and for the air cleaners to come in the mail. I suppose I should be asking what oil to put in it for initial startup and break in?  ~; ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on January 18, 2015, 12:04:31 PM
wow....  it's looking nice.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on January 18, 2015, 12:07:39 PM
You could try hooking them together with a bit of fuel hose to act as a balancer.

Not a bad idea .

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 18, 2015, 12:36:49 PM
You could try hooking them together with a bit of fuel hose to act as a balancer.

I had that on Rosie and the Centauro. Since changing to simple plugs on Rosie I can't tell any difference. I realize we're talking F.I. vs. carbs. What's the theoretical advantage with carbs?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on January 18, 2015, 04:43:30 PM
You have some extra hose if your fuel line splits..... ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: zedXmick on January 18, 2015, 06:34:36 PM
Coming together nicely!!   ;-T Can't wait for a ride report!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on January 18, 2015, 06:46:13 PM

I love it when a plan comes together.  ;D Basically waiting for Scott to get back from racin so he can weld the exhaust, and for the air cleaners to come in the mail. I suppose I should be asking what oil to put in it for initial startup and break in?  ~; ;D

Looking good
Not sure if you were serious but I've been using Penrite running in oil (there's versions of this from all makers I think)
Doesn't take long but works like it says on label
After a few hundred miles, put in good oil of choice, will stay clean and use none.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on January 18, 2015, 07:49:11 PM
I had that on Rosie and the Centauro. Since changing to simple plugs on Rosie I can't tell any difference. I realize we're talking F.I. vs. carbs. What's the theoretical advantage with carbs?

A balancing passage or tube is supposed to compensate for any small inequalities that remain in your carburation / intake. I've never had one personally, even on a 3 carbed bike I owned, so I don't know if they actually do any good or not.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on January 19, 2015, 08:25:21 AM
It looks like you're very close to finishing this. Fantastic work I think, and I'm really envious of your skills! :-)
Any chance of a video of the first start up?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on January 19, 2015, 08:31:53 AM
Quote
Any chance of a video of the first start up?

Starting off with a 'hold my beer and watch this.'  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: bad Chad on January 19, 2015, 08:55:02 AM
That's right, three words have preceeded more trips to ERs than almost all the rest combined!

"Hey, watch this!" :o
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rusty goose on January 19, 2015, 11:01:36 AM
The redneck suicide note "hold my beer, I'm goin' for it!"
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 19, 2015, 04:25:28 PM
It looks like you're very close to finishing this. Fantastic work I think, and I'm really envious of your skills! :-)
Any chance of a video of the first start up?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks, it's getting close. Still waiting for my welder to come back from out west. Video is up to Unkept.. if he wants to do it, sure, we'll do a first start video. Hold my beer.. ;D :BEER:
Title: Re:
Post by: Unkept on January 20, 2015, 09:09:53 AM
I'll be there... First ride video too? :D ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on January 20, 2015, 03:44:21 PM
I'll be there... First ride video too? :D ;)

Cool!! :-)
Who's gonna hold the beer though?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 20, 2015, 04:56:11 PM
Cool!! :-)
Who's gonna hold the beer though?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unkept doesn't drink. Other than that minor character fault  ;D ~; he seems like a good guy. He can Shirley hold it, though.  ;D Working (yuck) on a job making steel mill oiler nozzles right now. Progress has ground to a halt. Maybe next week.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 22, 2015, 03:49:20 PM
The UNIs came in the mail.. looks like they'll be perfect.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zpsyiexagiw.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zpsyiexagiw.jpg.html)
The instructions say before use to oil the inner sock with gen u wine UNI oil. Didn't have some. Got some K&N oil, though..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-004_zpsa17mmn1j.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-004_zpsa17mmn1j.jpg.html)
Might as well put em on but first.. I'd eyeballed the sync when I made up the cables. I've heard of using chop sticks to sync carbs, so I thought I'd give it a go. The idea is that it's easy to see which one moves first.. darned if it doesn't work.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zpsbijj3tjl.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zpsbijj3tjl.jpg.html)
It'll be interesting to see what the carb sticks say when it's started up.
They fit up really well..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-005_zpsxg7weavm.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-005_zpsxg7weavm.jpg.html)
More beautiful welding by Scott. I would never have tried welding stainless to mild steel.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpszewlzsad.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpszewlzsad.jpg.html)
Here's where very careful measuring many times and cutting once paid dividends. ;D It went together. A few thousandths off on fitting the flange causes *big* changes at the end of the header..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/7-007_zpsixbl2vjm.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/7-007_zpsixbl2vjm.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-006_zpsmypn2ql2.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-006_zpsmypn2ql2.jpg.html)
Yeah, baby!   ;-T This was the fussiest job on the whole conversion.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/8-008_zpszhbrmex2.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/8-008_zpszhbrmex2.jpg.html)
After a couple of tries, figured out where the line goes from the sump to the breather box, and called it a good 2 hours. Unkept says he can probably make it down from the Shire next Saturday, so I should have it ready to run by then.
Oil  oil.. gotta remember to put oil in it....  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 22, 2015, 04:47:30 PM
Very nice Chuck. Clever way to sync carbs. Can't wait for startup.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on January 22, 2015, 04:53:22 PM
There wasn't enough room to use chopsticks on my old H2 Kawasaki triple. I had to use nails.    :'(
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on January 22, 2015, 05:02:57 PM
Man! If I win the lottery I'll pm you with an offer you can't refuse!  :BEER:

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: charlie b on January 22, 2015, 05:39:04 PM
I like popsicle sticks too.  Carry them in the tool bag.  That way when a throttle cable breaks while on the road I can hook up the new one, resync and be on my way. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on January 22, 2015, 05:56:57 PM
I used to carry 3 steel rods 3/16 diameter for the Rocket 3. Used them like feeler gauges.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 22, 2015, 08:40:35 PM
I use my ears. Two clicks means they're off. In unison means they're good to go.  Can hear it at even the slowest rate.   
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rusty goose on January 22, 2015, 10:18:04 PM
I use drill bits, learned how to do that on the Ural.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on January 23, 2015, 12:00:59 AM
I use my ears. Two clicks means they're off. In unison means they're good to go.  Can hear it at even the slowest rate.   

That would not work with the R3 as it only had one cable and a solid linkage to the carbs. (one of a number of reasons I opted for that bike over some of it's competition)

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb116/johnr39/R3%20Carbs2.jpg) (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/johnr39/media/R3%20Carbs2.jpg.html)

This meant that they would lift together irrespective of their relative positions. It also meant that they never went out of sync unless you decided to disturb them.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 23, 2015, 05:31:37 AM
I use my ears. Two clicks means they're off. In unison means they're good to go.  Can hear it at even the slowest rate.   

That's what I did, too. They were still fairly far out, according to the skewers. Maybe my hearing aids aren't synced..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Morizzi on January 23, 2015, 05:47:54 AM
Chuck,

I'm sure I posted that unis just use engine oil. A 50/50 mix with turpentine to oil them and just turpentine to clean them.

K&N oil is no biggie, just a blend of vegetable oils and food colouring.

Cheers

Rod
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 23, 2015, 06:11:07 AM
Chuck,

I'm sure I posted that unis just use engine oil. A 50/50 mix with turpentine to oil them and just turpentine to clean them.

K&N oil is no biggie, just a blend of vegetable oils and food colouring.

Cheers

Rod

I must have missed it. The next oiling, I'll do that. I figured oil = oil on that job. Thanks Rod..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on January 23, 2015, 07:04:13 AM


More beautiful welding by Scott. I would never have tried welding stainless to mild steel.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpszewlzsad.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpszewlzsad.jpg.html)

Beautiful. ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 24, 2015, 10:38:14 AM
The boss  :wife: said I could have all day to play motorcycle  ;D so I started by putting in fluids. The dipstick on the engine needs to be remarked. I put in 2 quarts, and it is a half inch over the flat on the stick. Shirley, 2 quarts will work. Guzzi guru Sean Fader told me a good while ago that he doesn't recommend synthetic in the old rear drive because they have a tendency to weep out the seals, so in went 160 cc of 85-145 and 10cc moly. It's important to put a full liter of lube in the small block transmission to keep fifth gear happy, so I have a container marked for 1 liter. It's 1 quart plus 3 tablespoons. I'm going to experiment with Redline shockproof heavy to see if it quiets the transmission down.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsijtufk6r.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsijtufk6r.jpg.html)
Running out of things to do. Might as well hook up the fuel system. Oops, the 36s have a bigger hose barb than the 30s. It's plastic anyway, so it'll fail at the most inopportune time. Ask the crashed and burned V700.. get rid of it and the plastic crossover. The right petcock on the tank has a slight leak anyway, may as well order one of those, too.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-004_zpsbm0zl4tk.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-004_zpsbm0zl4tk.jpg.html)
Hooked up the battery. Woo Hoo! It's getting exciting now.. tweeet....
Lunch whistle, back later.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 24, 2015, 11:47:00 AM
Need two of these. That will kill two birds with one stone..
(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/7890.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on January 24, 2015, 12:31:33 PM
Is it too soon to remind you to take the tow bar off?  HAR Har! Just had an incident at the airport , a 152, first light off after a major o/h. Managed to whack the tow bar so a tear down and inspection. The owner saved a bunch of money doing it hisself. You left the prop off that monster, didn't you ? I'm betting on it makes a half revolution and starts. I'm anxiously waiting as I think many here are Chuck. Remember the aviation saying: If it looks good, It is good !
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on January 24, 2015, 12:31:52 PM
Need two of these. That will kill two birds with one stone..
(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/7890.jpg)

I'd bet Herdan's got them.  And they have great service - but you'll want to call them.  http://www.herdan.com/

Great thread Chuck, but how do you have the patience to wait for small parts when you're so close?!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 24, 2015, 12:34:17 PM
Need two of these. That will kill two birds with one stone..
(http://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/7890.jpg)

Smart to do your crossover that way Chuck.  Very simple and neat; will likely go there someday myself.  Disappointing to know that they put plastic banjos on such vital components.  I hope you don't have the white plastic floats!  Best of luck if so.  
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 24, 2015, 12:56:09 PM
Smart to do your crossover that way Chuck.  Very simple and neat; will likely go there someday myself.  Disappointing to know that they put plastic banjos on such vital components.  I hope you don't have the white plastic floats!  Best of luck if so.  

The black plastic banjos are made of Delrin AFAIK, so a pretty good choice as far plastic goes. Lots of folks use Delrin manifolds on their Guzzis after all. The black banjos seem to work well and for quite a long time, unlike the old white plastic ones which were pretty much crap. Still, metal dual inlet is the way to go.

IIRC, one photo Chuck posted earlier showed the white plastic floats. They'll work fine... until they don't. <shrug>.  :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 24, 2015, 03:07:49 PM
Getting exciting now.. hooked the battery up.  ;D I've been really wanting to crank it with the plugs out and see that oil pressure light go out. After all, I *have* been messing with the oil delivery system.. I know it's going to take some cranking because the pump has to pull oil out of the sump, fill the oil filter cavity, all the galleries.. crank crank..<sweating bullets> stop to let the starter cool. It's probably been 10 seconds, but seems like 10 minutes.  :o Crank crank, light goes out. Woo Hoo!  ;D Wiping brow.
Checked the dipstick, and it is right at the top mark with the stick sitting on the filler. Must be the right one after all. There was a *lot* of oil pumped through the engine.
Ok, let's set the timing. It's a little different than most things you do on a Guzzi, because you set the D cylinder first. After getting that one set by rotating the points plate, the S cylinder is timed by moving the sensor. It's a fussy operation to time that one.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-005_zpsbbtzatrk.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-005_zpsbbtzatrk.jpg.html)

 I walked through the Dyna S installation in the Lario Rehab thread, but I should have gone back and looked at it.  ;D I'd forgotten that everything had to be hooked up for the light to come on.  ::) Work the test light into the connector for the D cylinder (white wire) bring that cylinder up on compression ready to fire, and as you continue to turn in the direction of normal rotation, the light will come on.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-009_zpsx5rqm6lc.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-009_zpsx5rqm6lc.jpg.html)
If the timing is spot on, looking in the hole will show the static timing mark.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-010_zpsvunaxc2b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-010_zpsvunaxc2b.jpg.html)
Oh, yeah! If it's not, you have to rotate the plate until it does, back off the crank, rotate it back until the light comes on, check for the static timing mark etc. Got it? The S cylinder is done the same way. As I mentioned above, it's a little harder because it tends to move when you tighten the screws.
Ok, timing's set. We'll just hook up the plugs.. oops.
Lario plug on the left, Aero engine plug on the right.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zps018vmrpr.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zps018vmrpr.jpg.html)
Robbed the Aero engine harness, snipped 1/4" off the end of the plug wire and had at it. I'm not particularly fond of these in the rain, but they'll do for now.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-011_zpsjwznqt34.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-011_zpsjwznqt34.jpg.html)
Torque the valve covers down for the last time..An unintended consequence of putting the head guards on is they have to come off to pull the plugs. <shrug>
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-014_zpsvjktxuum.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-014_zpsvjktxuum.jpg.html)
As soon as we get fuel to it, it's ready to run.
I hope.  ;) Naa, it's bound to run. All the parts are in it.  ;D :BEER:
 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Aaron D. on January 24, 2015, 04:31:40 PM
Oh man, this is killing me!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on January 24, 2015, 04:40:52 PM
 :bike
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on January 24, 2015, 04:53:52 PM
 Great Thread! On that torque for the valve cover, what's calibrated,the Thumb or Forefinger? ~;

  Great work! Standing By.
 
      Paul B :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 24, 2015, 05:40:34 PM
I use drill bits, learned how to do that on the Ural.

I would trust this and equal metal feelers over the others as the tolerances would be equal (or at least closest to equal).  We're talking slight movement after all.  To be more absolute than my trained ear about it anyhow...  :P
 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John Ulrich on January 24, 2015, 06:51:01 PM
Let's fire up that "Road Drone"!    ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 24, 2015, 07:46:55 PM
Let's fire up that "Road Drone"!    ;-T

Sorry, it has to wait for Unkept to come down to do the video.  ;) Or not. I won't even be able to order the fuel stuff until Monday or Tuesday. It'll Shirley be here before next weekend, though. Don't have the brake reservoir yet, either.

So. Before I waste 20 dollars, (Guzzi content)  ;D  is that fuel petcock rebuildable? <snapping suspenders> I see a couple of screws on it. If I take it apart is there something I could make or buy a couple of O rings or something? If it's not, I'll have to order it at the same time..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 24, 2015, 08:26:41 PM

So. Before I waste 20 dollars, (Guzzi content)  ;D  is that fuel petcock rebuildable? <snapping suspenders> I see a couple of screws on it. If I take it apart is there something I could make or buy a couple of O rings or something? If it's not, I'll have to order it at the same time..

Remove the screws, carefully remove the rubber disc seal, (if it's not deteriorated) flip it over, reassemble. If you have viton sheet of the appropriate thickness and a good punch set, you could make the seal. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 24, 2015, 08:39:42 PM
Remove the screws, carefully remove the rubber disc seal, (if it's not deteriorated) flip it over, reassemble. If you have viton sheet of the appropriate thickness and a good punch set, you could make the seal. 

Thanks again, Charlie..  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Turin on January 24, 2015, 09:16:23 PM
A video would be awesome.  :pop  I can't wait to hear and see the badassiest small block ever!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 25, 2015, 08:54:50 AM
Is it too soon to remind you to take the tow bar off?  HAR Har! Just had an incident at the airport , a 152, first light off after a major o/h. Managed to whack the tow bar so a tear down and inspection. The owner saved a bunch of money doing it hisself. You left the prop off that monster, didn't you ? I'm betting on it makes a half revolution and starts. I'm anxiously waiting as I think many here are Chuck. Remember the aviation saying: If it looks good, It is good !

Now, *that* was an expensive brain fart.  :o  It's hard to imagine, although people have tried to take off with them attached. We had a doctor (isn't it always?)  ;D That always was in a hurry.. taxied with the throttles and brakes..  ::) pull out to the end of the runway with a tow bar still hooked to his twin. Jamie, the tower operator, said, "Pre flight complete?"  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 25, 2015, 01:41:16 PM
Remove the screws, carefully remove the rubber disc seal, (if it's not deteriorated) flip it over, reassemble. If you have viton sheet of the appropriate thickness and a good punch set, you could make the seal. 

Well, that was easy. Forgot my camera..duh. Taking off the outer plate revealed a thin wavy washer, and the seal which appeared to be delrin or maybe teflon .022" thick. There were some indentations in 4 places where the wavy washer pressed against it, and a fair amount of grit in the assembly. Pulled the seal out, cleaned it and the valve body, rotated it a bit so the wavy washer would be pressing in a different place, and carefully reassembled. Viola!  ;D No leak so far after about 3 hours. I'll check it again tomorrow.
5 minutes saved 20 dollars plus shipping and foldling.   ;) Pretty good wages.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on January 25, 2015, 01:54:48 PM
you got quite close to Shipping & Fondling there Chuck  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 25, 2015, 02:26:46 PM
you got quite close to Shipping & Fondling there Chuck  ;D

Oops, need to proof read a little better.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 25, 2015, 03:30:56 PM
I've never read anything good about the original coils in the Lario, so I thought I'd check the Aero engine coils. I've never seen them used on anything but a computer bike, but...
the Matco Meter says .8 ohms. I *assume* they are totally unusable with the Dyna, right?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsuemspt2l.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsuemspt2l.jpg.html)
Another little project for this week is the mounting for the pins in the side plates. I have 4, and they all break here. I'll try beefing up the mounting area this week, but I have to run to the big city and get some hardener for my resin.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zpspsyrtzz0.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zpspsyrtzz0.jpg.html)
Another decision to make. I'm loathe to cut up a rare and unusual machine. I *am* an antiquer, after all. The fairing wings don't even come close to fitting these heads. The fairing works beautifully, and the wings are part of the reason.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zpscuxn4at5.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zpscuxn4at5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 25, 2015, 03:44:53 PM

Another decision to make. I'm loathe to cut up a rare and unusual machine. I *am* an antiquer, after all. The fairing wings don't even come close to fitting these heads. The fairing works beautifully, and the wings are part of the reason.


Just lay up new ones that will fit. Easy peasey for a guy with your talents...  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 25, 2015, 03:50:13 PM
Just lay up new ones that will fit. Easy peasey for a guy with your talents...  ;D

Sure......  :D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on January 25, 2015, 05:43:58 PM
Just lay up new ones that will fit. Easy peasey for a guy with your talents...  ;D

...AND the local paint store already proved you can get a great color match :thumb


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: charlie b on January 26, 2015, 07:48:22 AM
If someone has one that is cracked or otherwise disfigured maybe you could swap with them?  I know that's a long shot.  Seems a shame to hack up a 'rare' piece, but, I've done worse :)

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 26, 2015, 08:03:17 AM
If someone has one that is cracked or otherwise disfigured maybe you could swap with them?  I know that's a long shot.  Seems a shame to hack up a 'rare' piece, but, I've done worse :)



I'd still be cutting up an antique part. Ah... I'm going to do it. <shrug> It'll still be repairable if someone *needs* one in the distant future. I'll finish up my (yuck) job today and have at it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 26, 2015, 08:51:34 AM
I'd still be cutting up an antique part. Ah... I'm going to do it. <shrug> It'll still be repairable if someone *needs* one in the distant future. I'll finish up my (yuck) job today and have at it tomorrow.

You keep doing this and you might have to admit you have a problem.   ;)  ~;  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 26, 2015, 10:55:22 AM
You keep doing this and you might have to admit you have a problem.   ;)  ~;  :BEER:

Yeah, maybe.. but all my adult life I've fooled with antique airplanes and learned early on that you never trashed an original part. *Someone* would need it some day.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 26, 2015, 11:03:47 AM
Yeah, maybe.. but all my adult life I've fooled with antique airplanes and learned early on that you never trashed an original part. *Someone* would need it some day.

I've got two pair of those wings if you need an extra.  I tend to strip my bikes down so I don't wear things out.  :D 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 26, 2015, 03:55:29 PM
I've got two pair of those wings if you need an extra.  I tend to strip my bikes down so I don't wear things out.  :D 

I'll definitely keep you in mind. If the aero engine doesn't work out for whatever reason I'll need some uncut ones.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on January 26, 2015, 07:55:30 PM
I've never read anything good about the original coils in the Lario, so I thought I'd check the Aero engine coils. I've never seen them used on anything but a computer bike, but...
the Matco Meter says .8 ohms. I *assume* they are totally unusable with the Dyna, right?





Chuck can you use a resistor with them? I'll bet they are good quality coils.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 27, 2015, 05:37:01 AM
I've never read anything good about the original coils in the Lario, so I thought I'd check the Aero engine coils. I've never seen them used on anything but a computer bike, but...
the Matco Meter says .8 ohms. I *assume* they are totally unusable with the Dyna, right?




Chuck can you use a resistor with them? I'll bet they are good quality coils.

I have no idea. I'll post a separate thread so one of the electrical whizzes can clue us in.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 27, 2015, 11:51:11 AM
Finished up the nozzles yesterday and delivered them today. Should be able to finish this little project up this week with any luck at all. The brake reservoir came in the mail yesterday. I *assumed* it would just be the reservoir, but it's the whole thing.  ;-T
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsfzpye9xy.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsfzpye9xy.jpg.html)
Now, let's get after this nasty fiberglass. If you've never done it before, here's the tricks of the trade. ;D Safety glasses. Particle mask. Barrier cream.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-006_zpswj9k2usa.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-006_zpswj9k2usa.jpg.html)
Barrier cream, you say? Trust me. It's water soluble. Apply it liberally, and rub it in. It makes it easy to wash up and get rid of that stupid fiberglass that you've been grinding on. If you don't get rid of all of it, the first time you put on your $100 jacket  ;) you'll notice that your arms itch. You'll eventually throw away that $100 jacket.  ;) BTDT, won't do it again. There are also throw away sleeves that you put on like a sock, but I'm out. Fortunately, I don't do this kind of job any more. Have I mentioned how much I enjoy cutting fiberglass?  ~;
Ok, ready? This is what mold makers call a pencil grinder. Air powered. Normally, it's used with small carbide burrs, dental burrs, grinding wheels and polishing bobs. Easy to manipulate, and around 60K rpms. With a carbide burr, it will just walk right through this stuff. I'd recommend practicing a bit before trying to cut to the line. There's a very real possibility of it getting away from you, breaking the burr, and trashing the workpiece.
Do it over the shop vac to keep the worst of the microscopic glass particles from flying about.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zpshhadhedq.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zpshhadhedq.jpg.html)
A few seconds later, the first rough cut. This kind of work *can* be done with a Dremel. It's just clumsy and not as powerful.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-004_zpsiqnjjxlo.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-004_zpsiqnjjxlo.jpg.html)
There will be many trial fits, and not a whole lot of room for error if it is going to look good *and* clear the fairing at full lock. Stock, it just touches. Both sides have to be fit up at the same time. To save time when locating the bolt, this is a piece of aircraft hardware called a Monadnack clip. It's just a captured nut on a clip. Saves a lot of time fiddling with loose nuts.  :o :BEER:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-005_zps9qa8gild.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-005_zps9qa8gild.jpg.html)
More later...it'll take all afternoon.
 
 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on January 27, 2015, 11:59:20 AM
Backing up a couple days to the spark plug? Hoping you have the right heat range but what if you don't? Stop by a friendly airport to try out a couple different ones? Inquiring minds want to know?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 27, 2015, 12:13:32 PM
Backing up a couple days to the spark plug? Hoping you have the right heat range but what if you don't? Stop by a friendly airport to try out a couple different ones? Inquiring minds want to know?

I'm guessing, and it's only a guess.. that they will be too cold. Airplane engines run WFO or near it all the time. Earlier in the thread, someone posted a cross reference for it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 27, 2015, 05:06:01 PM
Just as I suspected, it took all afternoon. I *really* wanted to make it look as stock as possible. but couldn't do it. I wanted this..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-007_zpsdbvkczur.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-007_zpsdbvkczur.jpg.html)
And could get it on one side or the other, but not both sides at once. After all, the Aero heads are over an inch taller, and quite a bit wider where it matters.
Finally gave up
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-008_zpsue6xm4ff.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-008_zpsue6xm4ff.jpg.html)
bit the bullet and started whacking, trial fitting, cleaning up the mess, etc. and ended up here.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-010_zpsu3mhmtv7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-010_zpsu3mhmtv7.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-009_zps1ffaehmr.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-009_zps1ffaehmr.jpg.html)
Made up a prototype mounting bracket for the rear. After I make those, I'll fit everything up for the last time. Whew! Beer O'clock.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on January 27, 2015, 05:10:31 PM
well looks like it was made in Mandello that way.  Now put the gas in and start it.  But you like to raise the tension :-)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on January 27, 2015, 05:48:16 PM
I'm really looking forward to the ride report. Should be fun.

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on January 27, 2015, 05:53:36 PM
Nice job on the fairing. You've got a good eye.

(...imho  the red fork gaitors have to go   :o    :). )



Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 27, 2015, 05:55:35 PM
well looks like it was made in Mandello that way.  Now put the gas in and start it.  But you like to raise the tension :-)

Thanks, Paul.  ;D I so want it to look factory. Tension? I always tell guys that build airplanes to *not* fly them until they are absolutely done. Same deal here. You get riding it, and you'll never get around to fitting up these wings, etc.  ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 27, 2015, 05:57:57 PM
Nice job on the fairing. You've got a good eye.

(...imho  the red fork gaitors have to go   :o    :). )





Dang! You and Lucky Phil. They were On Sale. With Free Shipping.. (Guzzi content) and they match. <shrug>  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on January 27, 2015, 06:08:46 PM
Dang! You and Lucky Phil. They were On Sale. With Free Shipping.. (Guzzi content) and they match. <shrug>  ;D

Ok, ok, ok, I like the fact that they are functional (Guzzi content) and will keep your fork tubes from pitting <shrug>  ;D

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 27, 2015, 06:20:46 PM
Ok, ok, ok, I like the fact that they are functional (Guzzi content) and will keep your fork tubes from pitting <shrug>  ;D



 ;D ;D Well, there ya go..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 27, 2015, 06:35:47 PM
Without handcuffs Chuck, you could truly be dangerous.  ;-T
Looking forward to the startup.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: skippy on January 27, 2015, 06:40:16 PM
For the love of God! The suspense is thick! This is like some Saturday serial cliff hanger. :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John Ulrich on January 27, 2015, 06:45:00 PM
Nice fairing detail!    ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 27, 2015, 07:01:27 PM
For the love of God! The suspense is thick! This is like some Saturday serial cliff hanger. :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop 

Stay tuned!! Don't touch that dial!!!  ;D The kid just called and said he'd bring down some grappa for the first startup..

"Here, hold my grappa. Watch this, you all.." <disaster lurking>
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: bad Chad on January 27, 2015, 08:26:13 PM
Great, lets get it on.  <smug>
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on January 27, 2015, 09:04:07 PM
ooh my


 :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rusty goose on January 27, 2015, 11:38:35 PM
Oh man, you have me riveted to my seat. Ok, the fiberglass mods look great. The lines are probably better looking now than they were originally.

But everytime I see there is a new post to this thread I'm hoping it is the video of the start up. Man it is torture stringing it out for us!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on January 27, 2015, 11:47:34 PM
stupid question:  Is the fuel tank going to fit?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on January 28, 2015, 04:39:29 AM
Dang! You and Lucky Phil. They were On Sale. With Free Shipping.. (Guzzi content) and they match. <shrug>  ;D

We know......there's a reason they were on sale with free shipping.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 28, 2015, 05:27:33 AM
We know......there's a reason they were on sale with free shipping.
Ciao

I'll offer my services and turn you some dowels to replace those front forks. They will stiffen up the front end and you can paint them any color you want. Folks won't bother to mention the gators and they'll be maintenance free.  Best of all they'll be better than OEM and still look period.  8) :P
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 28, 2015, 06:42:20 AM
We know......there's a reason they were on sale with free shipping.
Ciao

Hey, they were out of black. Surprise surprise. They *did* have fluorescent green and blue, though..  ;D :BEER:




mumble mumble... great artists are never understood...  :'(
Title: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on January 28, 2015, 12:30:29 PM
Great mod on the plastic bits and they do look very "factory". If it's any consolation, I actually like the red gaitors!

The suspense IS hard to take!!! :-)

EDIT:. Chuck, are you trying for the 30,000 thread views before firing it up?? :-).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 28, 2015, 04:43:08 PM
Great mod on the plastic bits and they do look very "factory". If it's any consolation, I actually like the red gaitors!

The suspense IS hard to take!!! :-)

EDIT:. Chuck, are you trying for the 30,000 thread views before firing it up?? :-).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gotta get your head in the game, son.. ;D First start is planned for Saturday. I said that a while back. The kid is coming down from Wisconsin, and he was talking about bringing grappa. Unkept may or may not be able to make it to do a video. If not, we'll do one with my pocket camera. I don't have any video editing software, though, so it'll be a big file. It would probably take all night to upload with my steam powered internet connection, depending on how much coal they're shoveling at the time.  ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 28, 2015, 05:03:04 PM
Continuing with my just in the nick of time manufacturing,  ;D I made the mounts for the wings that bolt to a valve cover bolt out of 3/32" 4130 this morning. Because Neil was right, Rust Never Sleeps, chromated them, (wearing respirator, trust me) and got the heck outa there.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsw056muuy.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsw056muuy.jpg.html)
Drove Miss Daisy down to the boob doc. When we returned, a box from Cheese and Gordon was in the mail box.. so I went into the hanger and brought out the tank. It's still not leaking.. ;-T My free repair must be ok. We'll see after the valve is exercised a few hundred times. A couple of people have asked if it will still fit. Shirley ;D it will.. but I haven't tried it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zpsv7yvntqn.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zpsv7yvntqn.jpg.html)
Alrighty, now.. before I put the tank on, might as well hook up the new dual inlet banjos..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zps9rayedfo.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zps9rayedfo.jpg.html)
D'oh! Called Gordon, and asked to speak with the shipping department.  ;D He said, "What's up?" Told him, and he apologized and said he'd get the right ones in the mail yet this evening. I asked if he wanted me to ship these back.. "Nope, keep em."
Edit for fat finger
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on January 28, 2015, 06:40:15 PM
A couple of people have asked if it will still fit. Shirley ;D it will.. but I haven't tried it.

 :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 28, 2015, 06:51:02 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ_Kwvn4rc0GnCfEYuBIqTTz08cg0wu8Jlwg9J6hW5Y49RL8IyI3g)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Guido Valvole on January 28, 2015, 08:25:00 PM
Green zinc chromate primer? Isn't that what Guzzi used on the racebike fairings? Primer only, for less weightÖ
cr
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on January 29, 2015, 02:58:57 AM
Green zinc chromate primer? Isn't that what Guzzi used on the racebike fairings? Primer only, for less weightÖ
cr
Infact. Only a layer, to save weight, and protect the fairing during transport to the Isle of Man.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 29, 2015, 06:06:54 AM
Oh yeah. I've seen aircraft tubing from the 30s with a light coat of chromate that still isn't rusted. Don't even think of spraying it without a respirator, though.. :beat_horse
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: HOSS on January 29, 2015, 08:27:07 AM
Remember when I bought Monty and you told me you didn't have time for another project? Just sayin'. With that keep up the good work this is really an awesome build!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on January 29, 2015, 08:37:33 AM
 Expired paint Chuck?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 29, 2015, 09:58:41 AM
Remember when I bought Monty and you told me you didn't have time for another project? Just sayin'. With that keep up the good work this is really an awesome build!

I guess I didn't have time for a loop project, Hoss.  ;D <shrug> I had a loop at the time.  I let peer pressure rope me into this one, I guess. Besides, it looked like fun, and wouldn't take long..  ::)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 29, 2015, 10:00:13 AM
Expired paint Chuck?

Yeah, I'm really concerned about that..  ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 29, 2015, 04:14:53 PM
Everything about this bike is "expired", but that's what makes it SWEET!!  ;-T. Want to hear the music.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 29, 2015, 04:43:56 PM
Well, I thought I'd show the non believers that the tank would fit, but... uh oh.  ;D The left petcock interferes.. The gizmo at the rear of the wing is a Cleco, used with special pliers to put parts together without fooling with bolts and nuts. They're normally used on airplanes to hold skins for riveting.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsvz6afmkv.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsvz6afmkv.jpg.html)
Turning the petcock slightly lets the tank settle on the breather line.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-004_zpsynwznoxt.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-004_zpsynwznoxt.jpg.html)
I briefly thought of heating and bending the breather line, but no doubt would warp or crack the unobtainium valve cover. Need to rethink that.. ;)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-006_zpsvovwep2j.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-006_zpsvovwep2j.jpg.html)
 No probelm, I'll just go into the hanger and get my panel beater's hammers out of my roll around.. Aarrrg. Ed the Rocket Scientist has been here and they're gone, along with my shot bag.  ::) Gotta have this done by Saturday. Fortunately, he didn't take the two ball peen hammers, they'll do.
Put some tape where I need to beat on the tank.  :o Does sorta personify the "engine and two wheels" thing, though, doesn't it.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-007_zpsnkz9azl7.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-007_zpsnkz9azl7.jpg.html)
Better get the fuel out.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-008_zpsvc8daoov.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-008_zpsvc8daoov.jpg.html)

Had a hard time getting the light right to show the tunnel that clears the breather line, and the scale of the hammer. It's about as small as normal ball peen hammers come, but has a bigger radius on the end than bigger hammers. Most people get in trouble stretching metal by trying to do too much at once. A thousand light pecks is *much* better than a few big ones.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/8-010_zpsw06npc8z.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/8-010_zpsw06npc8z.jpg.html)
There we go, tank on, breather lines modded, seat fits. Nothin to it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/7-009_zpsz7kt1ykl.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/7-009_zpsz7kt1ykl.jpg.html)
Still on schedule for Saturday. Tomorrow, we'll repair the side panels.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kckershovel on January 29, 2015, 04:54:58 PM
Exciting!
Title: Re:
Post by: Unkept on January 29, 2015, 05:43:13 PM
Will the Lario run on both cylinders this time? ;)

I'm going to be there guys, borrowing my friends *nice* camcorder, and recording with a condenser mic... Should be decent quality. :D

I'll try and upload it asap...
Title: Re:
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 29, 2015, 06:01:46 PM
Will the Lario run on both cylinders this time? ;)

I'm going to be there guys, borrowing my friends *nice* camcorder, and recording with a condenser mic... Should be decent quality. :D

I'll try and upload it asap...

Boy, I hope it runs ok.  ;D If the dual banjos don't get here tomorrow, we'll plumb each carb up separately.
Really, I appreciate you coming down to do it. I know you're covered up right now..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Rusty goose on January 29, 2015, 11:55:21 PM
Dueling banjo's,did I read that right?  Uh oh, I've seen this movie.....
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 30, 2015, 07:25:04 AM
What pipes are going on Chuck?  I thought you had some Bubs you played with??
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 30, 2015, 07:28:31 AM
What pipes are going on Chuck?  I thought you had some Bubs you played with??

The ones I have on it are the nasty Bubs that I got from Ed Milich. I still need to try to get them apart and repack them some day.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on January 30, 2015, 08:02:09 AM
No pressure Chuck, sure it will fire up and run.....  If not, fake it and fire up another bike that you change the carb sync on so it sounds nasty. Don't show the exhausts and you'll be fine....  I might have a bike in your hangar that runs nasty enough for that now ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on January 30, 2015, 08:07:00 AM
I still want to know if your going to have a big rollout ceremony like Boeing with a band and free beer. What time should we be there? The only help I gave on this were feeble attempts at humor but if there is free beer and stuff I'll man a fire extinguisher !
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 30, 2015, 08:22:28 AM
The ones I have on it are the nasty Bubs that I got from Ed Milich. I still need to try to get them apart and repack them some day.

I took the edge off my Bubs with an easy trick... brass plumbing reducers in the ends. They fit almost perfectly and the slot accepts them to the right depth. Put foil tape around them and tapped them in. No screws necessary. Mid-range is better but high revs a little less so. Decibel levels more acceptable. Mine don't want to let me in.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 30, 2015, 09:35:31 AM
I still want to know if your going to have a big rollout ceremony like Boeing with a band and free beer. What time should we be there? The only help I gave on this were feeble attempts at humor but if there is free beer and stuff I'll man a fire extinguisher !

Well, Unkept plays guitar and does vocals  ;D so I guess we could have a band. There's *always* free beer here, and a fire extinguisher in the hanger. It's always sitting ready on first startup of an antique aeroplane, but never have bothered with a motorcycle. Hmmmm.  Not too bright, my normal condition..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 30, 2015, 04:05:08 PM
Ok, let's finish this up. Here's the stuff to repair cast plastic and fiberglass. It uses standard Cream hardener (keep that stuff out of your eyes) in a ratio of 3/4 teaspoon to 1/2 cup, according to my engineering conversion program, not available for Mac.  ~; ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-006_zpsiiqthh1z.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-006_zpsiiqthh1z.jpg.html)
You'll have about 15 minutes from start to finish, so have everything ready before mixing.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-005_zps2de39dyd.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-005_zps2de39dyd.jpg.html)
Mix much more thoroughly than you think you need to.  ;) and using a throw away 1 inch paint brush, apply the resin. Lay the first piece of cloth. Here's the trick. Take a dry brush, and using rapid up and down motion, force the resin up through the weave. This process is called stippling. Most people put on too much resin, resulting in a brittle layup. Continue, using some fresh resin as necessary until you have at least 4 layers.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-007_zpstrk2vcwy.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-007_zpstrk2vcwy.jpg.html)
That'll finish up that little job. While we're waiting for it to cure, lets finish up the wings. This is another mold maker's tool, called an abrasive roll. It just twists on to the mandrel. Using the pencil grinder lets you make delicate cuts, and dress the radius on the fairing without making a mess of it.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zpstu8xusua.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zpstu8xusua.jpg.html)
Painted with a brush. I was too lazy to get out an air brush and spend all the time cleaning it up.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-008_zpsob22lq0j.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-008_zpsob22lq0j.jpg.html)
While that is drying, checked the mail and the dual banjos didn't come. Rats. Well, the show must go on,  ;D so plumbed the carbs with the singles. Started looking at stuff for the startup. What could possibly go wrong?  Better hook up the battery charger. It would be pretty embarrassing to have the world watching, push the button, and it goes.. click stutter stutter stutter.. we've all heard that sound.  ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpskpnetbgz.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpskpnetbgz.jpg.html)
Resin is cured, and mounted the side panels. After the paint drys, I'm officially out of stuff to do. Maybe I should wipe it down. As someone posted earlier in the thread, if it looks good, it is good.  ;D
Uh oh. I've mentioned before that if you look for trouble on an old machine you'll find it. A fresh crack in the fairing. It'll have to come off to be repaired, but not today. Gotta have it on for the official startup.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/7-009_zpss7xvsdok.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/7-009_zpss7xvsdok.jpg.html)
Brad's coming down tonight, and Unkept is coming in the morning to do the Official Startup Video. Nothing left to do in the morning except roll it off the stand, put in fuel, check for leaks, pay homage to Luigi, and punch the starter button.  ;D Exciting stuff..
Came in the house, and Dorcia brought this so Brad and I would get the proper head start in the morning..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/8-010_zps63ll0l8y.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/8-010_zps63ll0l8y.jpg.html)
She's such a good girl..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: bad Chad on January 30, 2015, 04:32:07 PM
You and Brad are a couple of lucky guys indeed. :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 30, 2015, 04:48:57 PM
You and Brad are a couple of lucky guys indeed. :)

You are absolutely right, Chad, my man.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on January 30, 2015, 05:25:31 PM
Looking forward to this! Got the popcorn and beer in the fridge! :-).
I was going to ask about your test ride plans, but ...
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/30/7645f285e57d13c3cd5a7e8a7edea035.jpg)
 :-(


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 30, 2015, 06:36:55 PM
Test ride plans will commence somewhere around April would be my guess.. ;D I quit riding when there was a possibility of ice on the road many years ago.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: injundave on January 30, 2015, 08:28:27 PM
Waiting impatiently down here for the big moment. All the best for the first start.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 30, 2015, 09:10:32 PM
Waiting impatiently down here for the big moment. All the best for the first start.

Thanks for that.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Doug McLaren on January 31, 2015, 02:04:47 AM
It's 8am on a cold wet winters day in n/e England and here I am checking on the latest progress, this thread has me hooked. Great stuff Chuck !
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 31, 2015, 06:19:14 AM
Had a restless night. I must be more excited than I thought..  ;D  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Zoom Zoom on January 31, 2015, 06:46:01 AM
 :pop :BEER:

John Henry
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: smdl on January 31, 2015, 07:00:06 AM
The Ontario Guzzi Rider's are getting together today to plan our year,  and we'll be watching this space for updates.    :pop  No pressure!    :BEER:

Shaun
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 31, 2015, 08:41:47 AM
Unkept just arrived. We'll feed him breakfast first..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Bill Havins on January 31, 2015, 08:43:20 AM
The Ontario Guzzi Rider's are getting together today to plan our year,  and we'll be watching this space for updates.    :pop  No pressure!    :BEER:

Shaun

...and the same here in West Texas.   :pop

Good luck!

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: CalVin2007 on January 31, 2015, 09:00:55 AM
Unkept just arrived. We'll feed him breakfast first..

    Feed him well. He's a growing boy!  ;-T  Anxiously awaiting reports of Chuck and Joe's excellent adventure....... ;D

   Terry
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 31, 2015, 09:07:23 AM
 ;D ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsjszayboi.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsjszayboi.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on January 31, 2015, 09:11:28 AM
May the combustion and ignition God's smile down on you today! Good Luck on liftoff!
   Standing By,
      Paul :BEER: :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on January 31, 2015, 11:39:05 AM
Thought of your fire-up while waking up - is that weird?  Looking forward to the news.  :pop

Good luck!
Shawn
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 31, 2015, 12:19:27 PM
<maniacal laugh> BWHAAAA.. IT'S ALIVE..  ;D
Toasted Luigi, punched the button, and it started as soon as it rolled over.  ;-T Intellectually, I *knew* it would.. all the parts are in it, <shrug> timing is spot on, new carbs, etc. but it still was a thrill. Just ran it a bit at 2000 rpm for the cam/lifter break in.. sounds bitchin.  ;D :BEER:
Unkept said he'd try to get a teaser video uploaded yet today. It'll take a while to edit the real video. For all that have hung in there, offered advice, kept me out of trouble, etc. thanks. Hope you've enjoyed the "long strange trip", too.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Turin on January 31, 2015, 12:30:23 PM
 :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Doug McLaren on January 31, 2015, 12:34:33 PM
That's great news, I've followed this thread every step of the way Chuck, it's been educational and entertaining. My hat goes off to you Sir.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: injundave on January 31, 2015, 12:43:24 PM
It's 7.40am here, I've just got out of bed, made coffee and cereal and straight onto this thread. Well done, sir. Now I can relax for the rest of my Sunday. I expect the rest of the world will chime in soon. Many congratulations on an excellent job.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on January 31, 2015, 12:45:15 PM
Congratulations.   ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on January 31, 2015, 12:47:07 PM
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2243/2069898453_826cb389e2.jpg)
IT'S ALIVE!
IT'S ALIVE!!!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on January 31, 2015, 12:50:31 PM
after some tweaking&checking I hope we can get a video of takeoff power in third gear and then to see if it'll pull redline in fifth which I have confidence it will. Nice work Chuck!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: blackcat on January 31, 2015, 12:59:05 PM
Cool.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on January 31, 2015, 01:51:51 PM
That must have been a great feeling!!

(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/31/ca6b82f15522d2d9b2b849fe48846572.jpg)

Thanks very much for having everyone along on the journey. It's been a great read, and now I'm looking forward to the movie!.  :-)

John


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on January 31, 2015, 02:03:16 PM
 ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Bill Havins on January 31, 2015, 02:22:45 PM

Yippee!  Good job, Chuck, et. al.!   :BEER:

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on January 31, 2015, 02:31:46 PM
 ;-T ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John Ulrich on January 31, 2015, 02:55:32 PM
Congrats with the "Road Drone".   ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucian on January 31, 2015, 03:00:52 PM
Really enjoyed following this project, fantastic job and thank you for the countless hours you spent to share this with all of us.  Does it now have to be registered as an aircraft? Dave
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on January 31, 2015, 03:11:36 PM
Almost 3:00 central.....what's up with the "Road Drone"?     ;D

I just got home... uploading the main video (unedited) of the first start now. Here are some teaser photos...

(https://13f8482cc99eeb81d74c674e5db7f7cb5b184828.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5c09RTGhRSmlmRXc/DSC00791.jpg)
(https://13f8482cc99eeb81d74c674e5db7f7cb5b184828.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5c09RTGhRSmlmRXc/DSC00794.jpg)
(https://13f8482cc99eeb81d74c674e5db7f7cb5b184828.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5c09RTGhRSmlmRXc/DSC00788.jpg)

Edit: Video Finished.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ql0a-l7mAI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ql0a-l7mAI)

It sounds excellent, enjoy. Great work Chuck!

-Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dl.allen on January 31, 2015, 03:29:18 PM
Congratulations!!!!!

Great Story and Big Smiles!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: smartin108 on January 31, 2015, 03:38:09 PM
Very cool!  I have been addicted to this thread.  Great job.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on January 31, 2015, 03:51:15 PM
Great video. Always a special moment after a lot of work.  :pop :pop

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Joliet Jim on January 31, 2015, 03:53:10 PM
Very cool Chuck
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Stormtruck2 on January 31, 2015, 04:03:55 PM
 :bow BRAVISSIMO!!!! :bow  You realize now after this project and the others you have done, you are not allowed to leave WG or this earth.  Keep the projects coming!!! ;-T ;-T  Your skills are as impressive as they are awe inspiring.  Next rally Chuck, drinks are on me.  Cigars too.  ( I won't tell Dorcia) ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on January 31, 2015, 04:18:49 PM
Well done Chuck, excellent startup action!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on January 31, 2015, 04:21:32 PM
Chuck, just found on my pc this document, maybe it helps somewhere:

(http://s16.postimg.org/8569r5syd/V75_radiale_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Anders Pedersen on January 31, 2015, 04:50:13 PM
Congratulations!!!

That engine looks and sounds butch!

Hip, hip, hurra ;-T ;-T ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on January 31, 2015, 05:25:16 PM
Fantastic Chuck!  Here's to waiting two months before your first ride.  :BEER:
This is going to be the two longest months of winter. Maybe you just have to take it apart and put it back together to pass the time.
Congrats.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on January 31, 2015, 05:39:28 PM
<maniacal laugh> BWHAAAA.. IT'S ALIVE..  ;D
Toasted Luigi, punched the button, and it started as soon as it rolled over.  ;-T Intellectually, I *knew* it would.. all the parts are in it, <shrug> timing is spot on, new carbs, etc. but it still was a thrill. Just ran it a bit at 2000 rpm for the cam/lifter break in.. sounds bitchin.  ;D :BEER:
Unkept said he'd try to get a teaser video uploaded yet today. It'll take a while to edit the real video. For all that have hung in there, offered advice, kept me out of trouble, etc. thanks. Hope you've enjoyed the "long strange trip", too.  ;D

Woo, Hoo!!!   :bike
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on January 31, 2015, 06:00:06 PM
That's a beautiful motorcycle, Chuck, and I'll bet it runs as good as it looks.  What's your guess as to HP?  I searched the thread and found something like 33% more than stock, but I'm not sure if that's current.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on January 31, 2015, 06:08:39 PM
congrats!   ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on January 31, 2015, 06:15:29 PM
 :bow
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Aaron D. on January 31, 2015, 06:17:54 PM
my wife and I watched together we're both very, very impressed. She thinks that is a great sounding engine, and so do I.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: gsf12man on January 31, 2015, 06:20:56 PM
Well, that was fun. Thanks to all hands including Joe.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on January 31, 2015, 06:40:49 PM
Chuck,
I will be out there for a month in April, perhaps we can do some riding and you can show me the one corner in Indiana ~;   Just kidding, congrats again, and best wishes to Dorcia!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Muzz on January 31, 2015, 06:44:26 PM
A really beautiful looking, and sounding, machine Chuck.

I too have been absorbed in this thread from go to whooohooo! ;-T Congratulations to all involved.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Testarossa on January 31, 2015, 07:09:48 PM
Fabulous!!!

PaulDaytona's document suggests the aero engine should do 68 hp at 7500 rpm.  Maybe metric hp?

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 31, 2015, 07:10:45 PM
Hey, thanks, guys.. I appreciate it. We've been hanging out with the Kid down in Indy, (don't get to see him often enough) came home, fixed dinner and finally saw the teaser video. Thanks, Joe. Awesome, considering you'd never even seen that camera before.
If you've been entertained.. I'm happy.  ;D If you've learned something, I'm even happier.  ;-T WG has been my main go to source for learning about Guzzis for years. Maybe I've paid it back a little.
There will be more to come as we collectively tune it. I'm sure it is rideable as is, so we will have somewhere to start.  :bike
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Cam3512 on January 31, 2015, 07:16:28 PM
Great job!  I was excited watching you get excited.  Impressive work!

Cam
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: smdl on January 31, 2015, 08:56:35 PM
Fantastic!  Love that video -- if you smiled any bigger, the top of your head would fall off!   Well done!!  :bow
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on January 31, 2015, 08:59:13 PM
The imponent cylinders of the Avio engine makes the Lario even more beautiful to see.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 31, 2015, 09:07:13 PM
The imponent cylinders of the Avio engine makes the Lario even more beautiful to see.

Yes.  ;-T I mentioned when I was first looking at it that it really embodied that "engine and two wheels" look that I like in a motorcycle.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on January 31, 2015, 09:14:19 PM
Hey Chuck I'm driving thru your backyard in a few short days.. I guess the question is "Do you have a well-sorted Lario engine for sale?"  :BEER:

Your new scoot is going to be a blast!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on January 31, 2015, 09:18:50 PM
  WG has been my main go to source for learning about Guzzis for years. Maybe I've paid it back a little.
There will be more to come as we collectively tune it. I'm sure it is rideable as is, so we will have somewhere to start.  :bike

After this project, I'm all for upgrading you to "board sponsor"!

 ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 31, 2015, 09:21:37 PM
Hey Chuck I'm driving thru your backyard in a few short days.. I guess the question is "Do you have a well-sorted Lario engine for sale?"  :BEER:

Your new scoot is going to be a blast!

You're always welcome to stop in to the 36-18 B&B.  ;D No, the only Lario engine I have needs to be gone through. It's eaten a cam lobe, after all..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Turin on January 31, 2015, 09:38:32 PM
Whooo, sounds good. Angry little beast you got there!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on January 31, 2015, 09:56:07 PM
An Excellent Job Chuck and an excellent thread to go with it. Well done and congratulations.  I suspect you have a bit of a fire breather there.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on January 31, 2015, 10:00:58 PM
(https://457ed6e4b9e521c5a66dfc8de4016c82bef84ce8.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5LUFpMEVfM2NjekU/Smudged%20Plate_compressed.jpg)
(https://457ed6e4b9e521c5a66dfc8de4016c82bef84ce8.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5LUFpMEVfM2NjekU/IMG_20150131_100847099_HDR_compressed.jpg)
(https://457ed6e4b9e521c5a66dfc8de4016c82bef84ce8.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5LUFpMEVfM2NjekU/IMG_20150131_095744438_compressed.jpg)
(https://457ed6e4b9e521c5a66dfc8de4016c82bef84ce8.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5LUFpMEVfM2NjekU/IMG_20150131_095401137_compressed.jpg)
(https://457ed6e4b9e521c5a66dfc8de4016c82bef84ce8.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5LUFpMEVfM2NjekU/IMG_20150131_093535157_compressed.jpg)
(https://457ed6e4b9e521c5a66dfc8de4016c82bef84ce8.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5LUFpMEVfM2NjekU/IMG_20150131_092844355_compressed.jpg)
(https://457ed6e4b9e521c5a66dfc8de4016c82bef84ce8.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5LUFpMEVfM2NjekU/IMG_20150131_092834556_compressed.jpg)
(https://13f8482cc99eeb81d74c674e5db7f7cb5b184828.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5c09RTGhRSmlmRXc/smudge%20plane%20comp.jpg)
(https://13f8482cc99eeb81d74c674e5db7f7cb5b184828.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5c09RTGhRSmlmRXc/Smudge%202%20retry.jpg)
(https://13f8482cc99eeb81d74c674e5db7f7cb5b184828.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5c09RTGhRSmlmRXc/DSC00799.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Moto on January 31, 2015, 10:43:37 PM
Wow! This seems like the best thread ever on this board. Very inspiring, very informative.

I think every member should be glad to buy you a beer!

Moto
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on January 31, 2015, 10:53:19 PM
PaulDaytona's document suggests the aero engine should do 68 hp at 7500 rpm.

That would be great!  The same HP as my "1000cc" Mille in a lighter bike.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on February 01, 2015, 12:29:31 AM
<maniacal laugh> BWHAAAA.. IT'S ALIVE..  ;D
Toasted Luigi, punched the button, and it started as soon as it rolled over.  ;-T Intellectually, I *knew* it would.. all the parts are in it, <shrug> timing is spot on, new carbs, etc. but it still was a thrill. Just ran it a bit at 2000 rpm for the cam/lifter break in.. sounds bitchin.  ;D :BEER:
Unkept said he'd try to get a teaser video uploaded yet today. It'll take a while to edit the real video. For all that have hung in there, offered advice, kept me out of trouble, etc. thanks. Hope you've enjoyed the "long strange trip", too.  ;D


Congrats Chuck! I'm so thrilled this project turned out to be a success, I didn't doubt one minute you would make it one  :bow :bow :bow

The Lario lookes even better with the aero mill - not sure that was even possibel  :D   I can't for my life not understand why Piaggio/Guzzi isn't using that mill, or at least the head/piston design, in the V7. Have fun Chuck - I sure look forward to your ride report - I want to know how the aero Lario will give a guy even more fun, than the stock version. The stock version is already over the limit of what a guy is allowed to have - your own words Chuck  :D :BEER: :bow

Love the video - Joe put it on my Lario FB page  ;-T ;-T ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on February 01, 2015, 12:59:50 AM
You're always welcome to stop in to the 36-18 B&B.  ;D No, the only Lario engine I have needs to be gone through. It's eaten a cam lobe, after all..

Wow - what's up with that Chuck ???  Don't like the "sound" of that :-[

Softer springs or stock?
What oil - fully synth. ???
How many miles?

Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dogwalker on February 01, 2015, 03:02:56 AM
Fabulous!!!

PaulDaytona's document suggests the aero engine should do 68 hp at 7500 rpm.  Maybe metric hp?
The same article indicates for the standard V75 2V an output of around 52ps.
(http://www.labellehistoiremotoguzzi.info/dotclear/public/technique/aero/courbes300x355.jpg)
Obviously those figures, even if obtained at the bench, are not realistic in a real life engine with air filters, mufflers, ecc...

For the Ippogrifo, with the same engine, the official figures were for 59 ps at the crankshaft, that realistically translates in 52/53 ps at the rear wheel. Moreover, that's the real power output of a perfectly tuned V7 Sport / 750S / 750 S3, and, with the same displacement and an engine with about the same architecture, you can't expect a so different result.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Tazturtle on February 01, 2015, 04:31:58 AM
Great stuff Chuck.

WG has amazing knowledge and many, many excellent threads - but this is my absolute favourite!

You have us all on tenderhooks again now awaiting the ride report.

Bravo!

Kurt
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 01, 2015, 06:11:10 AM
Wow - what's up with that Chuck ???  Don't like the "sound" of that :-[

Softer springs or stock?
What oil - fully synth. ???
How many miles?

Cheers
Brian

That was the Lario Rehab engine with the soft lash caps. Don't know what came first, the chicken or the egg, but it was your valves, progressive springs, Motul 10-60, about 5K miles. Whether the cam went and caused the lash cap problem, or the soft lash caps let the valve clearance get progressively wider and wiped the lobe will never be known. It's toast, though.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lawries on February 01, 2015, 07:13:09 AM
I would just like to add my congratulations and respect for a job beautifully done.
Just wish I had your kind of skill.

I really hope Moto Guzzi themselves provides some recognition of the time and love of the marque this project represents. The bike is deserving of a place in the Mandello museum but I don't expect you in any hurry to part with it just yet!  ;D

Awesome work, awesome thread, you are an inspiration to us all. Thank you  :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Daniel Kalal on February 01, 2015, 07:29:47 AM
Outstanding.  Congratulations, Chuck.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on February 01, 2015, 07:33:04 AM
That was the Lario Rehab engine with the soft lash caps. Don't know what came first, the chicken or the egg, but it was your valves, progressive springs, Motul 10-60, about 5K miles. Whether the cam went and caused the lash cap problem, or the soft lash caps let the valve clearance get progressively wider and wiped the lobe will never be known. It's toast, though.

Grinding the bad lash caps may have done its bit - It's recommended to keep clearance close to factory specs, as too wide a clearance both can provoke valve drop and help wipe the lobes.

Sorry to hear this  :-[
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mike Tashjian on February 01, 2015, 08:30:44 AM
Very Nice, Hope you get to ride it soon.   Mike
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 01, 2015, 08:48:58 AM
Very Nice, Hope you get to ride it soon.   Mike

Thanks, but we're having a snowpocolypse right now.  ;D Naturally, the dual banjos came in the mail after we did the startup video, so there's still that little job to while away an hour or so, along with fixing that crack in the fairing, so there's still something to do. I might roll it back out in the hanger and see if setting the idle stop screws will let it idle. Rumba may be right, and I'll have to go up to 55s or so. Time will tell..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on February 01, 2015, 08:55:02 AM

I really hope Moto Guzzi themselves provides some recognition of the time and love of the marque this project represents. The bike is deserving of a place in the Mandello museum but I don't expect you in any hurry to part with it just yet! 


 :+1 I was thinking the same thing.

& Congratulations on the successful project!



Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 01, 2015, 09:20:05 AM
Quote
I really hope Moto Guzzi themselves provides some recognition of the time and love of the marque this project represents.

This is ancient history to them. I'd be *very* surprised if Mother Guzzi cares.. but love of the marque? Yeah. That's why we are all here.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on February 01, 2015, 12:14:57 PM
This is ancient history to them. I'd be *very* surprised if Mother Guzzi cares.. but love of the marque? Yeah. That's why we are all here.

I might want to do a follow up interview with you Chuck when we both get a chance... and maybe get a first ride video in!

Then I can compile it into a mini documentary... cool be a cool project all on it's own.  ;-T

Someone mentioned me playing music earlier... I did think of a parody.

Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust" into...

"Another Bike Built By Chuck" by Unkept

Oh! Let's go!

Chuck rides crazily down the street
Guzzi torque pulls way down low.
Ain't no sound but the sound of speed,
Those two jugs ready to go.

Are you ready, hey, are you ready for this?
Are you hanging on the edge of your seat?
Out of the driveway the Guzzis rip
To the call of the streets

Another bike built by Chuck
Another bike built by Chuck
And another one done, and another one done
Another bike built by Chuck
Hey, he's gonna build yours, too
Another bike built by Chuck

How do you get a bike running strong
When your Italian ain't so strong?
You makes tools for everything that you can
And work things out on your own

Are you happy, are you satisfied?
How long can you stand the heat?
Out of the driveway the Guzzis rip
To the call of the streets

[Chorus]

Another bike built by Chuck
Another bike built by Chuck
Another bike built by Chuck
Another bike built by Chuck

There are plenty of ways that you can turn a wrench
And build the bike that you found
You can paint em', you can trade em'
You can treat them bad and leave them when their down

But Chuck's ready, yes, He's ready for Gu-
zzi. He's going to get this bike on the street.
Out of the driveway the Guzzis rip
To the call of the streets


[Chorus]
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 01, 2015, 12:27:38 PM
I think I remember a song, "Too much time on your hands.."  ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on February 01, 2015, 12:29:41 PM
I think I remember a song, "Too much time on your hands.."  ;D :BEER:

That took me two minutes... lol
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on February 01, 2015, 02:21:27 PM

I really hope Moto Guzzi themselves provides some recognition of the time and love of the marque this project represents. The bike is deserving of a place in the Mandello museum but I don't expect you in any hurry to part with it just yet! 

FWIW I tweeted Unkept's beautiful rear 3/4 shot to the Guzzi World Club & Moto Guzzi Americas with links the Chucks thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 01, 2015, 05:21:50 PM
FWIW I tweeted Unkept's beautiful rear 3/4 shot to the Guzzi World Club & Moto Guzzi Americas with links the Chucks thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The boy has a good eye.. I liked this one.
(https://13f8482cc99eeb81d74c674e5db7f7cb5b184828.googledrive.com/host/0B39jfvTG0FX5c09RTGhRSmlmRXc/DSC00788.jpg)
That one looks like a Guzzi Garage (tm) hanger to me.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 01, 2015, 05:34:27 PM
Went out today and installed the dual banjos. Turned on the fuel, and both leaked. Thought to self, "Of course they are leaking, dummy. You have a steel bolt clamping a die cast piece. Hello?? Earth calling. Now your hands are going to smell bad (Roper content)  ;D along with the shop, which you hate. Dummy."
I could b bb buy some  ~; and wait a couple of days, but in another lifetime, I was a sheet metal die maker, too. I made up a shim cutter for that job. Went up to the Guzzi Garage (tm) grabbed some gasket material, and made a couple. Not perfectly concentric.. but close enough for this job. Took considerably less time than telling about it, and was FREE..  ;)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zps7gg1csa6.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zps7gg1csa6.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: nobleswood on February 01, 2015, 09:12:46 PM
Chuck,
I'm glad the much anticipated start up went off so well. What I've enjoyed above the rebuild and the detective work of how the engine was put together were the side bits of information showing how to lay up fiberglass or time a flywheel.
Not having a machinists background this was a great education.
Thanks, i owe you a few beers for just letting me look over your shoulder.
Best wishes to you and Dorcia

Tim
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 02, 2015, 05:59:42 AM
Chuck,
I'm glad the much anticipated start up went off so well. What I've enjoyed above the rebuild and the detective work of how the engine was put together were the side bits of information showing how to lay up fiberglass or time a flywheel.
Not having a machinists background this was a great education.
Thanks, i owe you a few beers for just letting me look over your shoulder.
Best wishes to you and Dorcia

Tim

Thank you sir, that was the plan.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: arveno on February 02, 2015, 06:48:07 AM
Congratulation !! and thank you for your time and sharing it with us.
Must be very satisfying , you are the proud owner of the first "ippogrifo" on the road .

 ;-T

Regarding moto guzzi caring about persons like Chuck giving their life to the brand.... they won't care. Sad but true. ( sorry for being a "debby downer here )
Title: Re:
Post by: Unkept on February 02, 2015, 06:49:51 AM
The official Moto Guzzi page "Liked" my Facebook posts, for what its worth! :D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on February 02, 2015, 06:57:54 AM
Part II, the story continues ;D
Title: Re:
Post by: arveno on February 02, 2015, 07:01:50 AM
The official Moto Guzzi page "Liked" my Facebook posts, for what its worth! :D



I am sending the u tube video to few friends in Germany and Italy mandello guzzi club..... :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: bad Chad on February 02, 2015, 09:37:14 AM
Wow, kind of anti-climatic.      I thought it was supposed to fly around the garage and shoot fire out the back...






Just playing!   Great little video to a fun project we all got to feel we had invested in! :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mark West on February 02, 2015, 11:33:47 AM
Awesome. Can't wait to see some dyno runs and hear how it rides.

So. Would this be the rarest Lario on the planet?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on February 02, 2015, 11:36:20 AM
1 of one
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lrutt on February 02, 2015, 01:06:08 PM
Shouldn't there be a machine gun mounted somewhere, or rocket launcher or something?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 02, 2015, 01:20:10 PM
Awesome. Can't wait to see some dyno runs and hear how it rides.

So. Would this be the rarest Lario on the planet?

No dyno runs. Forget that, those cost money..  ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on February 02, 2015, 01:29:55 PM
With your elevated status I think a 'seat of the pants' dyno would do.  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on February 02, 2015, 01:47:49 PM
Hmm, trying to think of a way to justify Snoopy on his dog house in flying goggles as a decal on the tank....
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 02, 2015, 02:52:01 PM
Hmm, trying to think of a way to justify Snoopy on his dog house in flying goggles as a decal on the tank....

Lucky Phil would blow out the main vein..you wouldn't want to have that on your conscience.  ;)  :D Maybe on a bobber, but someone else will have to do that.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on February 02, 2015, 03:13:48 PM
No dyno runs. Forget that, those cost money..  ;D :BEER:

How about if we each chip in a couple bucks?  Post a PayPal address and I'll kick in.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 02, 2015, 03:19:49 PM
How about if we each chip in a couple bucks?  Post a PayPal address and I'll kick in.

No.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: injundave on February 02, 2015, 03:32:07 PM
Chuck I have a friend who is just like you. Malcolm is a very talented engineer, can make, repair and paint anything, does fibreglass, builds beautiful motorcycles, the whole nine yards, and is as tight as a fish's bum. Having said that, he would do anything for his friends (except spend money) and give you the shirt off his back. He is one in a million and I get the feeling you may very well be another one. Thanks so much for sharing this adventure. I have enjoyed every minute of it and look forward to the ride report.

Dave
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 02, 2015, 03:44:27 PM
Chuck I have a friend who is just like you. Malcolm is a very talented engineer, can make, repair and paint anything, does fibreglass, builds beautiful motorcycles, the whole nine yards, and is as tight as a fish's bum. Having said that, he would do anything for his friends (except spend money) and give you the shirt off his back. He is one in a million and I get the feeling you may very well be another one. Thanks so much for sharing this adventure. I have enjoyed every minute of it and look forward to the ride report.

Dave

Thanks for that, Dave. I don't like to spend money unnecessarily, that's all. I happily ponied up the money for new carbs, for instance. Now, I *did* get them wholesale.  ~;  ;)  Dyno runs? What's the point? Every dyno is different. 1/4 mile times might mean something if all you are looking for is to run the quarter mile. What I'm hoping to get is better bottom end torque..the Lario engine doesn't wake up until about 6K.. without taking a hit on the top end. I *think* this engine will do that, and be considerably more reliable, to boot. Time will tell..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on February 02, 2015, 04:16:30 PM
No.  ;D

Ah, so money isn't the real reason!    ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 02, 2015, 04:43:01 PM
Ah, so money isn't the real reason!    ;)

Naa..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on February 02, 2015, 06:41:14 PM
Chuck is a guzzi guy, why spend money that could be spent on beer or sausages.....
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 02, 2015, 10:32:59 PM
Awesome. Can't wait to see some dyno runs and hear how it rides.

So. Would this be the rarest Lario on the planet?

It's no longer a Lario as it doesn't have grenade status any longer.  ::)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 03, 2015, 10:36:06 AM
It's no longer a Lario as it doesn't have grenade status any longer.  ::)

So far, it does.  I'll remove them after a few thousand trouble free miles.  ~; ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Muzz on February 03, 2015, 11:23:23 AM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mr Roper would approve. ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 03, 2015, 11:56:34 AM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mr Roper would approve. ;-T

I got them specifically for Mr. Roper.  ;D I'd gone to Ebay and had it do a search for Lario. The next day, the first thing that popped up on my email was these green grenade valve caps. I assumed it was a sign from above. Had to have em.. :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on February 03, 2015, 07:29:40 PM
Brings new meaning to blowing your tire.....
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on February 03, 2015, 11:23:04 PM
So far, it does.  I'll remove them after a few thousand trouble free miles.  ~; ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg.html)

A bit of wee came out.... ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 04, 2015, 09:25:53 AM
Thanks for that, Dave. I don't like to spend money unnecessarily, that's all. I happily ponied up the money for new carbs, for instance. Now, I *did* get them wholesale.  ~;  ;)  Dyno runs? What's the point? Every dyno is different. 1/4 mile times might mean something if all you are looking for is to run the quarter mile. What I'm hoping to get is better bottom end torque..the Lario engine doesn't wake up until about 6K.. without taking a hit on the top end. I *think* this engine will do that, and be considerably more reliable, to boot. Time will tell..
Though we know why Guzzi did it, I think they did a disservice to us Lario guys by gearing it so high.  It is much more practical for the hooligan in us to go with the V65 gearing and it's still in its comfort zone at highway speeds.  It's 8% in the right direction.  Who gives a rats patootie what top speed is.  Saying this, I think the aero mill will work well with the extra grunt factor with the higher gearing.  Good match.  For putzin around like you do Chuck, it's a non-issue I realize.  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 04, 2015, 09:33:29 AM
Wanna race, dawg?  ~; :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 04, 2015, 09:56:13 AM
Wanna race, dawg?  ~; :BEER:

Hmmmm... I've got you on the weight factor and handling for sure.   ~;  Straight line... think you can rip it  :+=copcar   "if" it turns out to be what it's stated to be.  That's what we don't know.  The Lario said 60hp, but we know it's 38 RWHP stock.  An exaggeration for sure!  I don't really know where mine sits now since Ed's dyno was on the fritz in the end.  He tried several attempts only to come up with what he did.  Is that accurate?  Heaven only knows.  My butt says it's at least 15% (which is what he got with his numbers). It feels a lot bigger than stock.       
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 04, 2015, 11:04:16 AM
We're just going to have to wait and see. I would *love* to get it out on the road, but they are still ice and snow covered around here with more on the way. Just played with it a bit. I now have a solid idle at 1200, and throttle response is excellent. Blipping it, it goes to 4K, then back to idle.  :drool Certainly more responsive than the Lario was. Idle mixture is three turns out, so probably needs bigger idle jets, but I'm sure it's rideable as is. Patience, Chuckie, patience... ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Bill Havins on February 04, 2015, 11:08:01 AM

....Blipping it, it goes to 4K, then back to idle....Patience, Chuckie, patience...


Who you trying to kid?  ;)

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on February 04, 2015, 12:53:41 PM
What could possibly go wrong? ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 04, 2015, 01:09:32 PM
What could possibly go wrong? ;D

That was in my head at the first startup.. after all, it is a conglomeration of 3 different engines and home made parts assembled by an amateur Guzzi mechanic.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on February 04, 2015, 02:12:28 PM
well then, sounds like you could call it the new 2015 Lario......  ::)

Johnny Cash would be proud of you!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: leafman60 on February 04, 2015, 09:11:41 PM
That's quite an achievement, Chuck. I'm looking forward to hearing reviews on how the thing performs on the road. Congratulations!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 05, 2015, 06:43:09 AM
That's quite an achievement, Chuck. I'm looking forward to hearing reviews on how the thing performs on the road. Congratulations!

Boy, so am I, David.. 3 degrees F right now...  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on February 10, 2015, 04:09:57 PM
Well Chuck,
What have you done lately, this sucker slipped to page 4.... We need a fix..... You cant take us through the challenging build, the tight stuff right up to fire up, then have a smooth fire up and one update that you got it to idle perfect....   We got's a jones for this bike, keep the junkies going...
Cheers buddy,
Jon
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 05:43:11 PM
Well Chuck,
What have you done lately, this sucker slipped to page 4.... We need a fix..... You cant take us through the challenging build, the tight stuff right up to fire up, then have a smooth fire up and one update that you got it to idle perfect....   We got's a jones for this bike, keep the junkies going...
Cheers buddy,
Jon

Hiya Jon! Well, I added Dyna coils that I'd scrounged for free (Guzzi content) but put that in the Lario Rehab thread since doing that would pretty much be the same for most of the old small blocks. Thought I'd add some NGK caps and RED (for Lucky Phil) solid core wires. They haven't arrived, yet. I really wanted to ride it today, the sun was out.. but it never got above 26 degrees. Nope. Not me. I don't bounce as well as I used to.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on February 10, 2015, 07:07:26 PM
Quote
Nope. Not me. I don't bounce as well as I used to.. Grin

People who are in shape bounce well and round is a shape so it's about time I heard, "Hold my beer....."  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 10, 2015, 07:48:00 PM
People who are in shape bounce well and round is a shape so it's about time I heard, "Hold my beer....."  ;D

Hey! We already did "hold my Grappa" for the startup ceremony.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on February 11, 2015, 10:19:51 AM
Much like a drug dealer, you have hooked us, so what do you have for us now my friend!  Perhaps a an old guzzi tarting up, you know the one, in the back of the hanger, showed in one of your pics... That boy needs to be ready to ride by spring, and I know a guy who will pony up the cash..... Just sayin if you need to keep the show going.
Cheers Chuck and Dorcia,
Jon
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2015, 01:14:45 PM
Much like a drug dealer, you have hooked us, so what do you have for us now my friend!  Perhaps a an old guzzi tarting up, you know the one, in the back of the hanger, showed in one of your pics... That boy needs to be ready to ride by spring, and I know a guy who will pony up the cash..... Just sayin if you need to keep the show going.
Cheers Chuck and Dorcia,
Jon

I've already had that bad boy apart and together way too many times now. Just turn the key..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2015, 01:23:24 PM
First ride.
Couldnít stand it any more. Itís 31 degrees and not snowing. The roads are relatively clear although thereís a lot of sand.. and ice free if you stay on more heavily traveled roads. I thought, ďIf the hanger door isnít frozen shut, Iím going to give it a go.Ē It wasnít, so I rode up to the Guzzi Garage ô to get suited up. Thought, ďapparently the new Dyna coils are working.Ē  ;D  Aired up the tires to 28 and 32. One last inspectionÖ.
The last time I was in California, Cycle Gear was bringing out their Freeze out line. Half price on the shirt with a FREE balaclava thrown in. How could I keep my wallet closed?  ;D  Itís really nice stuff. Put those on, along with my ancient Motoport Winter bibs. Put my jacket liner in, finished the ensemble with my seldom used Winter gloves. Took the cell fone, and told Dorcia where the tie down straps and ramp were in the unlikely case of hearing the Dogga Dogga noise..  :o
First, let me say this. Whenever someone spends a lot of money or time on a project, they have a tendency to like it. Iím fully aware of this phenomenon. I told myself to just be as objective as possible.
It started instantly of course, after all, it has carbs and a Dyna.. and I just rode off keeping the rpms up above 2K until I came to the first stop about ľ mile away. By that time, it was warm enough to lumpily idle at a little above 1000.  Alrighty, now!
Everyone has a different idea on break in, and this engine is new. I pulled out on the main road and caned the tits off it.  ~;  Well, not really, but accelerated pretty hard, and then closed the throttle to lube the rings. As Pete says, I think a little wee came out.  ;D It has itís own distinctive sound, and it is just lovely on over run. Didnít stay at any particular rpm, and definitely didnít just putt around. Accelerated and decelerated a fair amount.
Itís certainly ďdifferentĒ from the Lario engine. The first thing you notice is there is none of that revving and slipping the clutch needed from a stop. Good bottom end torque. Fifth gear roll ons are drama free, just turn the handle. One time, I tried it at 2500 in fifth, and it just shook very lightly, and motored off. (!!) Very un Lario like. I certainly wonít be doing that, but it will do it.
I observed a 7000 rpm redline for this first ride, and hit that several times. It was still pulling strongly. Throttle response is quite good. That may be aided by the accelerator pumps. Dunno. Only whacked it WFO one time, and I think it might need a little bigger main jet. Not really a bog, it just felt like there was more waiting. Guzziology says the 36s are aided in the mid range by changing to the AB atomizer. That will be the first change, and weíll go from there. Drivability is only going to get better. I havenít even hooked up the carb stix yet.
Put 30 miles on it and when I pulled into the driveway, the garage door magically opened.  ;D Dorcia said she thought I was just going around the block and she was worried..
Actually, I hated to come back, but by that time my toes and fingers were beginning to talk to me.
Post ride inspection revealed no leaks or seeps, and it smells new.  ;-T
Needless to say, Iím thrilled.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: brlawson on February 11, 2015, 01:30:26 PM
Chuck,

I know there is not much I could add to this already epic thread but I drive by this guy every day on my way to work and point it out to anyone who could possibly be interested so I stopped and snapped a few pics on my lunch break.

I was talking with one of the project management folk (the whole project was managed, directed, and funded by Central Command in the building behind) that gave me a little history. He said that they acquired this guy during the development of the RQ-7. They were having so much trouble getting it into service that they almost lost their funding. In a last ditch effort Northrop-Gruman bought the decommed RQ-5 fleet from TRW, performed some basic maintenance, outfitted the laser designation technology they were trying to demo for the military and had them pressed into service in a matter of weeks. Needless to say the old geese (in an almost literal sense) saved the program and the rest is history.

Sorry about the quality of the pics but this one is serial# 001 and still has the engines fitted.

Location: Redstone Arsenal  Huntsville, AL



(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-btimKB_mOEc/VNuhqP2NG-I/AAAAAAAAB7o/Ejm9DvhSel4/w375-h667-no/20150211_121030%5B1%5D.jpg)


(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XHkZm-8FNI8/VNuiIROg2DI/AAAAAAAAB74/Sr2EygwEDAw/w375-h667-no/20150211_121031%5B1%5D.jpg)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hz5e1ojSA2M/VNuiiaT7B6I/AAAAAAAAB8I/Ux4InN_bd18/w375-h667-no/20150211_121304%5B1%5D.jpg)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qyUtVmfTff4/VNui1U5cIyI/AAAAAAAAB8Y/FZHcpzpphP8/w375-h667-no/20150211_121335%5B1%5D.jpg)

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2015, 01:35:18 PM
Kool..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Bill Havins on February 11, 2015, 01:58:13 PM

Kinda' like a "barn find," only different...  ;)

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on February 11, 2015, 02:19:15 PM
  Congratulations on your sojourn into Break-in land ;-T It's quite the feeling of accomplishment when you build a piece of machinery and it does what you expect it to without any suprises. Great Job! Now onto sorting the detail stuff, but hey It's a Guzzi ~;


     Paul B  :BEER: :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on February 11, 2015, 03:42:22 PM
Well done Chuck, that is what we needed to hear.... enjoy dialing it in, sounds like a great bike you have, and the only one in the world... Duh. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2015, 03:55:27 PM
Well done Chuck, that is what we needed to hear.... enjoy dialing it in, sounds like a great bike you have, and the only one in the world... Duh. ;D

Thank you, sir.. I'm a little surprised myself at how "normal" it seems..  ;D I've had new bikes that ran worse...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on February 11, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
 There was an ad for a BMW with a Bosc airplane engine on the OKC CL a couple years back . The seller didn't know his propeller from his crankshaft  :D 
 
  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on February 11, 2015, 04:34:50 PM
Congrats Chuck.

It's been an entertaining ride for all us.  I was really looking forward to seeing you ride it.  Sounds like a real success.  Keep it coming. 

 ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2015, 04:48:49 PM
Congrats Chuck.

It's been an entertaining ride for all us.  I was really looking forward to seeing you ride it.  Sounds like a real success.  Keep it coming. 

 ;-T

Thanks. I hope is has been half as much fun for you as me.  ;D  I was really looking forward to riding it, too..  I was looking at the forecast, and it looked like today was the only one that was remotely ridable in the foreseeable future. As my old pal Popeye said, "I can't stands it no more."  ;) So, I gave it a shot. It's turned nasty already, the forecast said, "blustery". The forecast is for snow off and on for the next several days, and highs in the teens.
Didn't see any other "bikers" out today..  ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: charlie b on February 11, 2015, 04:55:58 PM
Well, it would have been more fun if I'd been doing it....but, almost as good to see it through your eyes.  ;)

Congratulations on such a wonderful project.  And excellent workmanship as well (as if you didn't know that).

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 11, 2015, 07:22:10 PM
Well, it would have been more fun if I'd been doing it....but, almost as good to see it through your eyes.  ;)

Congratulations on such a wonderful project.  And excellent workmanship as well (as if you didn't know that).



Thanks, but I had a lot of help from people on WG. There's a *lot* of talent here..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: O on February 11, 2015, 09:21:48 PM
Chuck,

I will never have your technical skills, and I sure appreciate the balls required to take your one-of-a-kind Guzzi out on winter roads.  THANK YOU for sharing this adventure with us.  I tip my helmet to you, and can't wait for further dispatches on your Aero-Guzzi adventures.  :bike

Cheers!
Owen
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on February 11, 2015, 11:45:33 PM
Ah man!  That is so awesome!  Congratulations on a successful first solo on that bike!!  Thanks for posting up all the work you did.  Hmmm...gonna have to ride the V7 Lario Classic up there and race! 
Cheers!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 05:40:40 AM
Ah man!  That is so awesome!  Congratulations on a successful first solo on that bike!!  Thanks for posting up all the work you did.  Hmmm...gonna have to ride the V7 Lario Classic up there and race! 
Cheers!

That would be more than fun, Mike.. ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 07:08:42 AM
With your elevated status I think a 'seat of the pants' dyno would do.  ;-T

It's still way early, but it's about like the typical small valve big block as far as "perceived" power. I think it would out run my old 1000 SP right now. Rosie doesn't have her panties in a bunch worrying about the fast new girl on the block.. ;D Yet.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 12, 2015, 08:52:26 AM
Fantastic Chuck! Somehow missed this yesterday when posted. Sounds like yours is similar to mine at take-off. Just go without slipping.  Instant go power and a feeling of bigness. You'll have fun dialing it in but sounds close enough as is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dean Rose on February 12, 2015, 09:05:36 AM
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XHkZm-8FNI8/VNuiIROg2DI/AAAAAAAAB74/Sr2EygwEDAw/w375-h667-no/20150211_121031%5B1%5D.jpg)

Well there you go.

If anyone wants to copy what Chuck did they just have go down to Redstone Arsenal  in Huntsville, AL at night and disassemble that one.


Dean
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 12, 2015, 09:10:52 AM

Well there you go.

If anyone wants to copy what Chuck did they just have go down to Redstone Arsenal  in Huntsville, AL at night and disassemble that one.


That's what I was thinking. Two more engines that need rescuing!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on February 12, 2015, 10:36:07 AM
I wonder if one of these aero engines could be installed in a current V7C and utilize the EFI, etc...    :pop
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on February 12, 2015, 10:51:52 AM
I wonder if one of these aero engines could be installed in a current V7C and utilize the EFI, etc...    :pop
Oooohhh. Yeaaaahhh!!!
Now that Chuck showed us how...just gotta find another mill....!!!
 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 11:09:46 AM
I wonder if one of these aero engines could be installed in a current V7C and utilize the EFI, etc...    :pop

I'm sure it could. I toyed with the idea of using the FI that came with the Aero engine, but there was just no place to package that computer. Not to mention having to make up a new harness..
A V7 should practically be plug and play. I'm not familiar with the system, but if it uses two pickups, I think it might just be plug and play.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: brlawson on February 12, 2015, 02:52:23 PM
That's what I was thinking. Two more engines that need rescuing!

Thought about it myself as a drive by on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 03:04:09 PM
Just arrived. Oooh, the red wires are more of a red/orange.. they should match the gaiters.. ~; ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-004_zpspypebrma.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-004_zpspypebrma.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Bill Havins on February 12, 2015, 03:09:30 PM
I'm sure it could. I toyed with the idea of using the FI that came with the Aero engine, but there was just no place to package that computer. Not to mention having to make up a new harness..
A V7 should practically be plug and play. I'm not familiar with the system, but if it uses two pickups, I think it might just be plug and play.


Chuck,

Tell me more about the ECU from the Aero engine setup.  Is it a P8 kind of a box?  I'm hatching a plot, or is that obvious?  ;D

Thanks!

Bill
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 03:16:30 PM
Spent a little time today moving things around and bringing in the next Aero engine project.  ;D Its a 1930 Lambert 90 horsepower radial. This was before pressure lubed rockers, so they have to be greased every 5 hours. The pushrods need to be pulled every 10 hours and some grease put on them. It ought to be a hoot, watching those rockers chattering away, happily spewing grease all over the windscreen and the front of the airplane.. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsd7r52knw.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsd7r52knw.jpg.html)
Big old Bendix Scintilla magnetos..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsinr4xnjk.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsinr4xnjk.jpg.html)
Oh, there's that small task of restoring an airframe to put it on.. ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 03:18:42 PM
Chuck,

Tell me more about the ECU from the Aero engine setup.  Is it a P8 kind of a box?  I'm hatching a plot, or is that obvious?  ;D

Thanks!

Bill


Well, I'm out of my league here, but I believe it was PaulDaytona that said it was a P8.. so what's the plot?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Tazturtle on February 12, 2015, 05:50:53 PM
"Spent a little time today moving things around and bringing in the next Aero engine project.  Grin Its a 1930 Lambert 90 horsepower radial."

Really looking forward to seeing that in the Lario!!!

Kurt
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 06:09:34 PM
"Spent a little time today moving things around and bringing in the next Aero engine project.  Grin Its a 1930 Lambert 90 horsepower radial."

Really looking forward to seeing that in the Lario!!!

Kurt

That aero engine might be a little more of project to put in the Lario.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on February 12, 2015, 07:46:20 PM
Just arrived. Oooh, the red wires are more of a red/orange.. they should match the gaiters.. ~; ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-004_zpspypebrma.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-004_zpspypebrma.jpg.html)
Indiana....the high water mark of aesthetics.

Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 12, 2015, 08:36:32 PM
Well, it took you long enough, Phil.. ;D :BEER:
It's the only color of solid core they had.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on February 12, 2015, 09:35:28 PM
Chuck,

Tell me more about the ECU from the Aero engine setup.  Is it a P8 kind of a box?  I'm hatching a plot, or is that obvious?  ;D

Thanks!

Bill

yes p8. But a 15rc will work also, just need the v7/breva750 tone wheel on the cam.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on February 12, 2015, 10:02:12 PM
Well, it took you long enough, Phil.. ;D :BEER:
It's the only color of solid core they had.
Yea right Chuck ;D
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on February 13, 2015, 01:03:33 AM
yes p8. But a 15rc will work also, just need the v7/breva750 tone wheel on the cam.

Tone wheels are inexpensive...I'm just sayin...LOL
Huh, I went with black wires and red caps.... ;-T ;-T ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 13, 2015, 06:22:02 AM
Tone wheels are inexpensive...I'm just sayin...LOL
Huh, I went with black wires and red caps.... ;-T ;-T ;-T

Hmm, where'd you find the red caps?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on February 13, 2015, 07:55:49 AM
Hmm, where'd you find the red caps?

www.steadfastcycles .com
Gotta have the red!  Lol
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 13, 2015, 08:01:01 AM
I've got the NGK Reds on my stock bike like Chuck just got; put them on a couple years back. May have to borrow them for the super Lario.  ???
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 13, 2015, 09:13:49 AM
www.steadfastcycles.com
Gotta have the red!  Lol

<snapping suspenders> 10 bux apiece?  :o The black ones were $2.66. I don't want to troll for Lucky Phil that badly.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John Ulrich on February 13, 2015, 01:03:37 PM
. It ought to be a hoot, watching those rockers chattering away, happily spewing grease all over the windscreen and the front of the airplane.. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsd7r52knw.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsd7r52knw.jpg.html)

WOW!
Bring it to the Iowa Rally and clamp it to the tree out front for testing!
   :o
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 15, 2015, 01:37:26 PM
Sometimes, the simplest things are the most vexing.  ;D I thought Iíd finish up this project and put the new wires and caps on. Just screw on the ends..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpszwzz0f3b.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpszwzz0f3b.jpg.html)
But even using the terminal crimpers
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-008_zpszjj34afr.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-008_zpszjj34afr.jpg.html)
the swaged on part wanted to rotate without turning the screw. So I soldered them.  ~; Screwed them on the wire. Slid the boot on the wire, WD 40 helps a lot for that job.. and slid the spark plug boot on and screwed on the cap. Nothing to it. I thought.  ;D
I couldnít get the boot on the Dyna coil. Nope wonít go. It doesnít help that you can only get a couple of fingers on it. Got on the web and googled Dyna boot. Iím not the first.  ;D Some just said leave it off. (!)  ::)  Hmmm. Since WD40 wouldnít do it, I thought Iíd try a dab of Vaseline and Q tip. Yuck. What a mess. Nada. Took everything apart and cleaned it all up. Took a break, then went down to the shop and brought my industrial heat gun to the Guzzi garage.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-013_zpsvh3cd3sp.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-013_zpsvh3cd3sp.jpg.html)
Just a few seconds with that bad boy, and it just went ďsnick.Ē  ::) Iíd like that hour back..  ;D
Tucked everything up neatly, and tie wrapped it up.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-011_zpsbjr18v2d.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-011_zpsbjr18v2d.jpg.html)
Took a look at a plug. Looks pretty good to me. At any rate it doesnít look like itís entirely too hot or cold.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsfqbibeeg.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsfqbibeeg.jpg.html)
Pretty good color match, huh, Phil?  ;)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-014_zpsygdwvdqp.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-014_zpsygdwvdqp.jpg.html)
Iím calling this project done until riding weather gets here.
This is one of my favorite views. Looks better in person. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-015_zpswmeonwgr.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-015_zpswmeonwgr.jpg.html)
Thanks for following along!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dblue on February 15, 2015, 01:56:12 PM
Chuck,
fantastic job.
after your visit, I got going on lm3. you are an inspiration.

Dave
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: biking sailor on February 15, 2015, 02:01:59 PM
Thanks for taking us along on the journey!    :bike
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 15, 2015, 02:39:37 PM
Chuck,
fantastic job.
after your visit, I got going on lm3. you are an inspiration.

Dave

Attaboy, Dave!  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: zedXmick on February 15, 2015, 08:43:47 PM
Quote
This is one of my favorite views. Looks better in person. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-015_zpswmeonwgr.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-015_zpswmeonwgr.jpg.html)
Thanks for following along!



Congratulations Chuck, for owning a truly ONE of a kind ride.



For the life of me why can't Paiggio do this for the Current V7??? All the tooling for this top end was paid for YEARS ago.  ~; Mid 60ish RW HP would help sales exponentially.  Shame really..... ::)

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on February 15, 2015, 09:41:43 PM
I wouldn't count on hp at mid sixties RW, but yes, a push in that direction of hp would make s great "racer" with the sb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: sign216 on February 16, 2015, 07:16:15 AM
Terrific write up.  I've enjoyed it all.

Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 16, 2015, 11:18:32 AM
Terrific write up.  I've enjoyed it all.

Joe

Thanks, Joe..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: lucky phil on February 17, 2015, 05:22:44 AM
Hey Chuck, just noticed,along with the red gators and plug leads you need to get rid of those effing poxy bar end mirrors.
Those things are truly horrible. So many stylish aftermarket mirrors on the market these days there's no excuse for rubbish like bar end mirrors.
Ciao
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 17, 2015, 06:21:42 AM
Hey Chuck, just noticed,along with the red gators and plug leads you need to get rid of those effing poxy bar end mirrors.
Those things are truly horrible. So many stylish aftermarket mirrors on the market these days there's no excuse for rubbish like bar end mirrors.
Ciao

 :bike  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dhansen on February 24, 2015, 08:45:06 AM
Going to bring it to the National Chuck?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 24, 2015, 08:55:11 AM
Going to bring it to the National Chuck?

That's the plan. Demo rides should be available..assuming I haven't blown it up by then. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: sign216 on February 24, 2015, 09:56:30 AM
That's the plan. Demo rides should be available..assuming I haven't blown it up by then. ;D

You may regret that offer.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on March 03, 2015, 02:37:46 PM
Spent a little time today moving things around and bringing in the next Aero engine project.  ;D Its a 1930 Lambert 90 horsepower radial. This was before pressure lubed rockers, so they have to be greased every 5 hours. The pushrods need to be pulled every 10 hours and some grease put on them. It ought to be a hoot, watching those rockers chattering away, happily spewing grease all over the windscreen and the front of the airplane.. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsd7r52knw.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsd7r52knw.jpg.html)
Big old Bendix Scintilla magnetos..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsinr4xnjk.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsinr4xnjk.jpg.html)
Oh, there's that small task of restoring an airframe to put it on.. ;)

Here's an idea chuck!

You wouldn't have to worry about oil on the windshield!

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/772DA417-A072-440B-A200-C7560B2E7714_zpsbiqvemqt.jpg) (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/captcaliber/media/772DA417-A072-440B-A200-C7560B2E7714_zpsbiqvemqt.jpg.html)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John Ulrich on March 03, 2015, 02:53:24 PM
Here's an idea chuck!

You wouldn't have to worry about oil on the windshield!

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f365/captcaliber/772DA417-A072-440B-A200-C7560B2E7714_zpsbiqvemqt.jpg) (http://s51.photobucket.com/user/captcaliber/media/772DA417-A072-440B-A200-C7560B2E7714_zpsbiqvemqt.jpg.html)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where I grew up in Michigan they would do this to BMW Isetta's and put skis on the front and run them on the ice on the Saginaw Bay in races....Snowplane racing!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 03, 2015, 04:32:33 PM
The prop is on that thing to pull it in reverse.  That should be fun at high speed.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 03, 2015, 07:11:56 PM
The prop is on that thing to pull it in reverse.  That should be fun at high speed.

True.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 03, 2015, 07:16:37 PM
Are props like that reversible, Chuck?  Maybe it's backwards to cool the engine on test runs and he'll turn it around to push the car.  (tapered hub or just a bolt-on flange?)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 03, 2015, 07:21:01 PM
Are props like that reversible, Chuck?  Maybe it's backwards to cool the engine on test runs and he'll turn it around to push the car.  (tapered hub or just a bolt-on flange?)

Alcohol is involved here, but I'm *pretty* sure it's a tapered hub on that engine.  ;D
Edit: I've never worked on one. That one "looks" like it may have a prop adapter that fits the crank. In that case, yes, you could turn it around and inefficiently drive the bug.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on March 03, 2015, 07:21:12 PM
when will Chuck finish that project and finally install the prop on that bike?

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 03, 2015, 07:32:48 PM
Propeller driven car:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dv-gl6RCGc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dv-gl6RCGc)

And a more modern one:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGu-HD3bmlM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGu-HD3bmlM)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on March 03, 2015, 09:13:22 PM
Couldn't see much in the way of brakes on that second clip. Scary!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 03, 2015, 09:16:05 PM
Couldn't see much in the way of brakes on that second clip. Scary!

Yes, I noticed that too!  I didn't see any rear wheel brakes, so it was just a front brake?  There had to be something like a disk on the right side of the front wheel.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on March 03, 2015, 09:21:08 PM

The prop is on that thing to pull it in reverse.  That should be fun at high speed.
The big Polish radials on AN2 biplanes rotated opposite western engines so maybe that does also.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 03, 2015, 10:29:26 PM
The big Polish radials on AN2 biplanes rotated opposite western engines so maybe that does also.

Good information, John.  I was looking at the prop pitch and its foil shape when I said that, but after your post I checked the video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGeSIM_8BHY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGeSIM_8BHY)

At the end when the engine stops, it looks pretty clear that it rotates counterclockwise when viewed from the rear, which means the prop is pushing the car forward, but is rotating the opposite direction from what it was designed for!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kirby1923 on March 04, 2015, 03:24:23 PM
The pusher prop on that bug when turning creates a large low pressure area just in front of the engine,(behind the prop) which will draw air. thru cylinders.
Those engines were designed to cool low speed aircraft at 60% power or more. Probably no cooling problems with that installation.

:-)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 11, 2015, 04:24:36 PM
Sunny and 51 today.  ;-T Took it for a putt, now that the glow has had a little time to marinate.

It's freakin awesome.. ;D What a sweet runner. What was Guzzi thinking, not putting this sucker in the small block line???
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mark West on March 11, 2015, 05:32:32 PM
I thought this bike was totally cool. Why didn't they make this? Was that when they were going broke or something?

(http://rocker59.smugmug.com/photos/105737075_59Lf9-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Penderic on March 11, 2015, 05:58:37 PM
The admin boys must have had something bigger in mind.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Metualins_zps8qtetg8d.jpg)
 ;D
She had told them size matters.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: zedXmick on March 11, 2015, 08:41:59 PM


It's freakin awesome.. ;D What a sweet runner. What was Guzzi thinking, not putting this sucker in the small block line???

+ a zillion   ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on March 12, 2015, 08:08:37 AM
That is beyond me, like a huge step backward to not hit the ground running with those heads on the V7s.  Had to be a bean counter decision back in the day.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on March 12, 2015, 10:10:35 AM
That is beyond me, like a huge step backward to not hit the ground running with those heads on the V7s.  Had to be a bean counter decision back in the day.

Moto Guzzi S.p.A. under Trident Rowan Group probably didn't want to spend money a small block variant, what with lots of money being spent on the Califorina EV makeover of the Tonti California line and the upcoming V11 Sport makeover of the spine frame line.  

Probably just not enough money to go around.  It does make one wonder why so much money and resources were spent developing the prototype, though. 

The bike was in the 1997 product brochure as "coming soon", Aprilia took the reins in April 2000 and probably permanently shelved the idea.

 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 19, 2015, 03:11:40 PM
Well, this was a good news and bad news day. A couple of days ago I took the Lario for it's first "long"  ;D ride. Filled up with gas, and came back to the same station after 114.3 miles, and put in 2.3 gallons. That makes me think the needle jet and needle are about right. Did a WFO plug chop when I came home..that was interesting on our chip and seal road..had a hard time keeping it going straight, and by the time I got it under control I saw the tach needle going past the red line.  :o Gotta get a rev limiter. Shut it down and coasted to the Guzzi Garage. Today, I had a look at the plugs to see if the main jet is too lean. *I don't know anything about performance tuning* but they look ok to me..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zpse9rpepbg.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-004_zpse9rpepbg.jpg.html)
That's the good news.
Decided since that was the 6th heat cycle, I'd torque the heads and adjust the valves. Did the left cylinder, and when I went to the right, the M8 stud seemed too loose. Started to bring it up, and at 20 ft lbs, it just kept turning.  ::) That's just freakin great.. >:( Now, is it the stud or is it the nut?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-007_zpshn3kc3pl.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-007_zpshn3kc3pl.jpg.html)

 I don't have a good feeling about it just being the nut, but dunno. It looks like my options are either cutting off the nut some way, or welding the nut to the (no doubt unobtainium) stud and see if it will torque down.  ::) I've heard of nut splitters, is this a viable way to do it? I'd hate to get a grinding wheel in there and go at it, but I suppose I could if need be.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on March 19, 2015, 03:27:28 PM
Couple of hot tacks from a mig would do it.  Plenty of bolt to weld to.

Or you could start another nut, and weld up the middle to the bolt.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on March 19, 2015, 03:51:10 PM
Did the left cylinder, and when I went to the right, the M8 stud seemed too loose. Started to bring it up, and at 20 ft lbs, it just kept turning.  ::) That's just freakin great.. >:( Now, is it the stud or is it the nut?

Just checking if I understood that right. The stud kept turning?? :-o




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 19, 2015, 03:53:11 PM
So you're saying you can't back the nut out?  Is the stud turning when you are backing it out?  ???
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on March 19, 2015, 04:04:46 PM
Turn the nut with a wrench, watch to see if the stud turns. <shrug>  ;)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 19, 2015, 04:45:29 PM
No, the stud isn't turning.. yet.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on March 19, 2015, 05:23:30 PM
That sounds good.
Far be it for me to give you advice on any engine build matters, but if I couldn't unscrew the nut, I'd probably want to weld another on the top bit of the stud and remove the whole thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 19, 2015, 05:30:42 PM
If the nut won't back out why do anything to keep it on?  Did you torque it down the first time?  Leave it be and ride the thing gets my vote.  Look for weeps along the head gasket along the way.  What's the worst that can happen? 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 19, 2015, 06:31:41 PM
If the nut won't back out why do anything to keep it on?  Did you torque it down the first time?  Leave it be and ride the thing gets my vote.  Look for weeps along the head gasket along the way.  What's the worst that can happen? 
[/b]
Yeah, but it started feeling a little weird at around 25, and I quit. <hanging head in shame>
Quote
What's the worst that can happen? 
I'd say the head could warp. I'm dealing with unobtainium stuff here.. that's the *last* thing I'd want to happen. I'd weld the nut to the stud first and see if I could torque it down.

So. Cut the nut off? Weld it on and see if the stud is stripped, too?
I'm not doing anything without sleeping on it (I do my best work in bed)  :o and listening to advise from this list.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on March 19, 2015, 06:44:48 PM
So. Cut the nut off?

Since the stud isn't turning, this gets my vote.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 19, 2015, 06:51:18 PM
Since the stud isn't turning, this gets my vote.
What with? Do I have to get a little grinding wheel in there?  :o
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on March 19, 2015, 06:53:18 PM
Since the stud isn't turning, this gets my vote.

And if it's the threads on the stud that are stripping? Cutting off the nut might damage something and you still end up with a stud that needs removing. As it is, there's a lot of stud poking out above the nut to weld something to and then just turn the whole thing out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 19, 2015, 07:05:57 PM
My limited experience with a nut splitter says that's a decent option.  The nut should split before you contact the stud threads with the splitter chisel. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: biking sailor on March 19, 2015, 07:08:05 PM
Sleeping on it is never a bad idea.   ;)

Since the nut is turning on the stud, we can assume both the nut and stud threads are damaged.  Welding the nut on might allow you to get the proper torque on the stud, then remove the stud and replace it later at your convenience.

Whatever you decide, just make sure it is repaired properly at some point.

Good luck, and I've enjoyed following build thread and am pulling for ya!   ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on March 19, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
Decent quality nut splitters work well. I'd look for a Snap on or OTC. The Chinese ones may or may not work once.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on March 19, 2015, 09:26:36 PM
What makes you think it is not the stud pulling out of the block?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 12:36:18 AM
I'm surprised that is an M8 stud.  Figured it would be a 10 MM.  I have some spare 4130 chromemoly cold rolled m8 and m10 studs, in various lengths.  Might just have what you need.  Let me know if you need one.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on March 20, 2015, 06:08:01 AM
I have some high strength bolts/studs from a ducati in various lengths, but think they are M10.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 07:14:59 AM
What makes you think it is not the stud pulling out of the block?

That's what I'm *really* worried about. The stud isn't turning now, though..just the nut.
After sleeping on it, I decided to weld the nut to the stud and see if I can back it out of the case. If so, depending on what the stud looks like, I'll just put it back in, torque it down and forget it. If I can't back it out, it'll be a major tear down anyway to put a thread insert in the case, so I wouldn't mind grinding off the nut.
Unless somebody says, "I wouldn't do that, and here's why.."  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 07:18:20 AM
I'm surprised that is an M8 stud.  Figured it would be a 10 MM.  I have some spare 4130 chromemoly cold rolled m8 and m10 studs, in various lengths.  Might just have what you need.  Let me know if you need one.

This is the top center stud that normally is the short one on a small block. On the Aero engine, it goes clear through the rocker pedestal.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on March 20, 2015, 07:33:58 AM
I wouldn't do that and her's why.

Firstly, Do we know that it was the stud that turned when you torqued it up? (that wasn't clear to me. ) If not, then I would do it up with a ring spanner so I could check. 

If the stud does not turn when you check, then I would remove the nut in the hope that the stud was undamaged. A nut spliter would be ideal, but as I don't have one I would probably try and do something totally shade tree like try to put some upward pressure under the nut with a screw driver while gently undoing it with a an open ender.

If the stud is turning when you check then it has to come out. But there may be nothing wrong with the nut or the threads on the stud. I wouldn't wreck either. I would tighten down a second nut on the bit of thread that's showing (carefully) to act as a lock nut and gently unscrew using the bottom nut.

It maybe that the threads in the casing have in fact given up the spook, in which case swear a bit, kick the dog, have a beer and settle into the fact that you have to fix it with a Helicoil or some such.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 08:02:00 AM
Quote
Firstly, Do we know that it was the stud that turned when you torqued it up? (that wasn't clear to me. ) If not, then I would do it up with a ring spanner so I could check. 
Did that, it's the nut turning. That doesn't mean that the stud *isn't* stripped though.
Quote
I would probably try and do something totally shade tree like try to put some upward pressure under the nut with a screw driver while gently undoing it with a an open ender.
Tried that. No cigar.
Quote
I would tighten down a second nut on the bit of thread that's showing (carefully) to act as a lock nut and gently unscrew using the bottom nut.
Tried that. It stripped the threads out of the jam nut. There are only a couple.
Quote
It maybe that the threads in the casing have in fact given up the spook, in which case swear a bit, kick the dog, have a beer and settle into the fact that you have to fix it with a Helicoil or some such.
That's what I'm afraid of..I'm not looking forward to that scenario.
And in that case, I'll have to MAKE a new stud to go along with putting a thread insert in the case. I haven't even searched to see if I can get 8mm dia. 4130 yet.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: smdl on March 20, 2015, 08:25:19 AM
We've got faith in you, Chuck -- the bike couldn't be in better hands!   ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 08:29:09 AM
We've got faith in you, Chuck -- the bike couldn't be in better hands!   ;-T

Oh, yeah it could.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on March 20, 2015, 08:39:39 AM
Quote
I haven't even searched to see if I can get 8mm dia. 4130 yet.

5/16 might be close enough.  ::)  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kckershovel on March 20, 2015, 08:44:23 AM
I am for the nut splitter. It looks like plenty of room to get to it with one. and if the threads on the stud are bad it looks like you would still have enough good threads you could put a spacer under a new nut to get proper torque. If you weld a nut to the nut that's on it the bottom nut even though stripped will alter the torque values. I like the looks of this one

http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/04571352?src=pla&cid=PLA-Google-PLA+-+Test&CS_003=7867724&CS_010=04571352

or this one

http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06642649?src=pla&cid=PLA-Google-PLA+-+Test&CS_003=7867724&CS_010=06642649

Both can be bought cheaper elsewhere but that was the easiest way to link to them.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 20, 2015, 09:32:08 AM
Zoro has the Facom splitter a lot cheaper, Nate: 

http://www.zoro.com/i/G4582487/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CMHhgN2St8QCFYQvgQodjjkAPQ
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 20, 2015, 10:03:06 AM
Chuck, how many M8's on the Lario?  Is it just the top center like yours? I'm drawing a blank.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 10:09:37 AM
Chuck, how many M8's on the Lario?  Is it just the top center like yours? I'm drawing a blank.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep. The four M10s, and the center short M8. It's a no doubt "special" stud on the Aero engine.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 10:13:34 AM
Zoro has the Facom splitter a lot cheaper, Nate: 

http://www.zoro.com/i/G4582487/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CMHhgN2St8QCFYQvgQodjjkAPQ

Notice in the picture that the nut has a flange around the bottom. Will a nut splitter get that, too? I'd almost bet not.
If I *have* to get a pencil grinder in there and grind that flange, I might as well slot the nut and take it off. No need to be spending money on a tool that I've never needed, and will never need again.. (Guzzi content)  ;D
I'm still leaning toward welding it..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on March 20, 2015, 10:39:42 AM
Chuck you build airplanes, your solution will likely be more robust than the factories....




Did that, it's the nut turning. That doesn't mean that the stud *isn't* stripped though.Tried that. No cigar.Tried that. It stripped the threads out of the jam nut. There are only a couple.That's what I'm afraid of..I'm not looking forward to that scenario.
And in that case, I'll have to MAKE a new stud to go along with putting a thread insert in the case. I haven't even searched to see if I can get 8mm dia. 4130 yet.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 12:36:07 PM
Chuck you build airplanes, your solution will likely be more robust than the factories....




Probably not, I'm just trying to effect a repair. I want to get the thumper project out of my hair before diving into the deep end of the pool on this one.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on March 20, 2015, 12:48:34 PM
 Hi Chuck, looks to me the most effective way at this point if there is no torque left on the stud is to cut the nut and washer with a dremel type cut off wheel,slot the stud and remove it with a screwdriver provided the bottom isn't locktited.   My .02 $

     Paul B. :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 12:52:50 PM
Hi Chuck, looks to me the most effective way at this point if there is no torque left on the stud is to cut the nut and washer with a dremel type cut off wheel,slot the stud and remove it with a screwdriver provided the bottom isn't locktited.   My .02 $

     Paul B. :BEER:

I'm trying to avoid grinding if at all possible. If it *is* locktited, which it should be, it'll take 75 ft lbs to remove it. No way could I do it with a screwdriver.. Superman maybe..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on March 20, 2015, 12:58:35 PM
 Plan B. Drill and tap one flat on the nut for a decent size set screw, lock the nut to the stud and remove SLOWLY.

   PaulB :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Howard R on March 20, 2015, 02:11:51 PM
A couple of quick thoughts.  First, at this point you don't really have anything to loose, maybe latch onto the nut with vise grips to pull on while turning, if you can get one thread somewhere to "bite" you might get the nut off to see what you have re: stripped stud threads.  I have used nut splitters a few times in the past (but don't have one now, else it would already be in a box on its way to you) and from my experience you might be able to get it started working on the nut flange, since there's not much "meat" there to cut until you get to a flat.  Another possibility would be to split the body of the nut and then CAREFULLY go after the flange with a thin chisel.  (Note in all of this I share your aversion to putting ground metal into the nether reaches of an engine!)

Good luck!

Howard
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 20, 2015, 03:42:58 PM
A couple of quick thoughts.  First, at this point you don't really have anything to loose, maybe latch onto the nut with vise grips to pull on while turning, if you can get one thread somewhere to "bite" you might get the nut off to see what you have re: stripped stud threads.  I have used nut splitters a few times in the past (but don't have one now, else it would already be in a box on its way to you) and from my experience you might be able to get it started working on the nut flange, since there's not much "meat" there to cut until you get to a flat.  Another possibility would be to split the body of the nut and then CAREFULLY go after the flange with a thin chisel.  (Note in all of this I share your aversion to putting ground metal into the nether reaches of an engine!)

Good luck!

Howard

tried that, too, Howard. Even put a pry bar under the jaws of the vise grips to lever it up. ;D Tomorrow, I'm going to weld it to the stud and see if I can get the stud out. If it's stripped, too.. :o then, I'll grind the nut off. I can do a thorough clean up if I have to tear down the engine.. >:(
That's the worse case scenario as I see it. If I *can* back the stud out after tacking it pretty well I can either do a good job of welding, measure it so I  can make a new one, re install it and forget it for a while, or put it in the lathe and turn the nut off to see what the threads on the stud look like.
Fingers crossed that it just backs right out.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on March 20, 2015, 04:16:04 PM
Tomorrow, I'm going to weld it to the stud and see if I can get the stud out. If it's stripped, too.. :o then, I'll grind the nut off. I can do a thorough clean up if I have to tear down the engine.. >:(

+1  I think that's the best way to go. The least risky and least destructive too.

But isn't it possible to get another nut onto the stud and weld that in the middle? That way, if you needed to (for whatever reason), you could still get under it to cut it off with a dremel.

Anyway, good luck!!!

John


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 20, 2015, 10:26:02 PM
http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1223
I used some of these mil spec studs on my 4v build.  I have a set of the 8mm ones.  If you need one, I'll check the length and hopefully have one.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: father guzzi obrian on March 20, 2015, 11:08:00 PM
Hi Chuck,
You have clearly thought this out, your approach is correct, proceed per plan.  Keep us posted and good luck!
Jon
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on March 20, 2015, 11:40:31 PM
I've used a small, very sharp hard cold chisel to split nuts.  It taxes my patience but it has worked.  Given that the aero stud is supported by alloy, I'm not sure it would work well - for me it's always been supported by steel or cast iron as I recall.

I've always had to cut in from 2 sides and the top - but the sides were what worked.  The nut doesn't seem to expand until the point of the chisel is very close to the threads of the bolt or stud.  I've had to resharpen and re-shape the chisel.  I don't have a welder so this is probably what I would do as long as the alloy looked like it was holding up.

Hope this is helpful, but your experience is far greater than mine.

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 21, 2015, 06:08:02 AM
http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1223
I used some of these mil spec studs on my 4v build.  I have a set of the 8mm ones.  If you need one, I'll check the length and hopefully have one.

Thanks, I'll have a length for you today..if they would happen to be the right length it would save reinventing the wheel. And b bb buying  ;D an M8 die and some 4130 stock.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on March 21, 2015, 07:01:19 AM
I'm no machinist but, from some YouTube videos, it seems like a nut splitter could damage the stud.

The nut is the expendable item right? Before having to weld the nut, could you not try the biggest pair of vise grips whilst prying it upward with another tool?

Hopefully the nut thread was the culprit and the stud can be cleaned-up/restored with something like this:
http://www.lasertools.co.uk/news.aspx?article=523

I remember 27 years ago when I was in the airforce, my Rickman's fork bottom stud was damaged by a cross thread. Moose Jaw's downtown machinist gave me some unattractive scenarios to fix it.
Brought the fork leg to the airbase jet mechanic, and he said "oh BSA thread so and so pulled out a tool like in the link and cleaned it up. Thread became good and held the bottom fork and wheel together with the bike :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on March 21, 2015, 10:14:48 AM
if the stud is stripped isn't it more likely that it's aluminum block rather than the steel stud?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on March 21, 2015, 10:29:24 AM
You guys have more experience in your little finger than I have in totality. But my two cents (likely over valued too). Both the nut and the stud are expendable and sacrificial. The head, not so much (but if it is stripped there are products like a heli-coil to save your bacon).

The nut should be cheap to buy. The stud too, but if it turns out to be "special" I suspect you have the tools to fab up something - say pull the good one from the other head to get exact specs.

So the nut, stud or bother are buggered, welding the nut to the stud and yanking seems to be the safest way to remove. A bit more welding, some griinding and you could reinsert the welded assembly back - but I strongly suspect bits can be bought or made to replace the buggered bits.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 21, 2015, 11:27:50 AM
Happy day.  ;D
I welded the nut to the stud..after a fashion.. not pretty,but it's stuck.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-009_zpsol33cbgz.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-009_zpsol33cbgz.jpg.html)
and started to back the stud out. The little guy in the back of my head said, "You *know* you are asking for trouble taking studs out of an aluminum engine case.. you probably shouldn't do this any more than absolutely nececssary.."
I've learned to listen to that guy, so I tried torquing it instead. No problemo. Torqued it to 25 ft lbs and left it. Adjusted the valves and put it back together. When I get a new stud and nut, I'll pull it and replace it.
*assuming* 3/4" thread engagement in the case, the stud needs to be at least 225mm long. HEY, MIKE! Are you listening?  ;D
Buttoned it back up and called it fixed for a while.
When I was putting up the tig stuff, I started to hang up the ground wire. Oh, joy. There's always something to fix.. ;D
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/d929b379-eebd-436a-919c-d892c92cdf7d_zpszoiqiefj.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/d929b379-eebd-436a-919c-d892c92cdf7d_zpszoiqiefj.jpg.html)
Now, back to my original question..
How do the plugs look? The insulator is that color clear to the bottom as well as I can tell with a light and magnifier. Maybe a little more tan than the picture shows. Heat range ok? Main jet ok?
Edit to insert the picture.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zpse9rpepbg.jpg
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 21, 2015, 11:38:37 AM
Chuck, reading a plug chop the way I'm used to doing it requires you use new plugs in a warm engine, go out for a wide-open run, and cut the engine.  Then look way down at the bottom of the porcelain.  There should be just a little color down there at its base.  You need a really bright light and a magnifier, or you need to saw the steel threads off the plug to expose the porcelain.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on March 21, 2015, 11:46:01 AM
 By the looks of that plug I'd say your pretty damn close to spot on. With todays fuels it's a crap shoot anyhow. A little more "tan" wouldn't be a bad t/hing but how much trouble is it to go a little fatter on the main? Risk vs. Reward  ~;

    Paul B :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 21, 2015, 11:57:09 AM
Rinkrat, Chuck said the photo is from a plug chop, not normal running.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dl.allen on March 21, 2015, 11:58:39 AM
I would check the torque again on your welded nut/stud after a heat cycle or two to see if it will stay put in relation to the others next to it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on March 21, 2015, 12:22:25 PM
Hey Jim, Granted it was a chop but the plug already had 115 miles of runtime. Average it out I'll stick with my assesment.
   Got 100LL Chuck?? ~;

  Paul :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 21, 2015, 12:44:49 PM
QUestion:  If you were to weld a nut onto the end of a long bolt and bottom out the bolt in a hole then torque on the nut, what part are you putting torque on?  I say the bolt, not the nut right?  So, are you REALLY applying 25 ft lb pressure on the nut holding the head?  I think you are assuming that the rod is being torqued and would move?  What if it didn't move?  I guess I can't wrap my head around torquing on something you just welded in place.  Help me out someone.  If the rod had somewhere to go then I can see things as good, if not then you can apply much more and get the same results since nothing CAN move until you strip the housing holding the rod.  I think you're close so it's a non-issue.  

Oh... I think your plug chops look pretty good.  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 21, 2015, 01:17:42 PM
QUestion:  If you were to weld a nut onto the end of a long bolt and bottom out the bolt in a hole then torque on the nut, what part are you putting torque on?  I say the bolt, not the nut right?  So, are you REALLY applying 25 ft lb pressure on the nut holding the head?  I think you are assuming that the rod is being torqued and would move?  What if it didn't move?  I guess I can't wrap my head around torquing on something you just welded in place.  Help me out someone.  If the rod had somewhere to go then I can see things as good, if not then you can apply much more and get the same results since nothing CAN move until you strip the housing holding the rod.  I think you're close so it's a non-issue.  

Oh... I think your plug chops look pretty good.  ;-T
Kev, I see your point, but when I backed the stud out a turn or so, it didn't feel like it had been bottomed in the case (which isn't the best practice in the world anyway) there was no "break away" torque. I'm pretty sure that the 25 ft. lbs. I'm seeing is correct.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on March 21, 2015, 01:22:24 PM
You're torquing the unit, not the nut.  Doesn't matter if there is a nut on top, or if you're using a long bolt (which this stud has become).

Torquing the heads is just squeezing them between the case and the nut, or the head of a bolt.


Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 21, 2015, 02:16:25 PM
You're torquing the unit, not the nut.  Doesn't matter if there is a nut on top, or if you're using a long bolt (which this stud has become).

Torquing the heads is just squeezing them between the case and the nut, or the head of a bolt.




Yes, assuming there's room to go. Chuck figures there was. Taking two set items to a place neither can go gets you nowhere even if you set the wrench to 60 ft lbs. It will say you're there when you went nowhere.
Very glad to hear it's a done deal and nobody got hurt. Smart choice.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 21, 2015, 02:28:02 PM
Hey Jim, Granted it was a chop but the plug already had 115 miles of runtime. Average it out I'll stick with my assesment.
   Got 100LL Chuck?? ~;

  Paul :BEER:

OK Paul, I went back and read a bunch, but missed that.  Not really an official plug chop then, and least the kind I'm used to, and yes I agree with you, they look good.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on March 21, 2015, 05:11:50 PM
Chuck face it, it's a damaged unit. Since it still runs I'll give you a hunnerd bones for it :D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 21, 2015, 05:28:45 PM
Chuck face it, it's a damaged unit. Since it still runs I'll give you a hunnerd bones for it :D

Are you sure?? After all, it's a Lario, and all... ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 21, 2015, 05:29:08 PM
The longest M8 I have is 210mm.  I'll look around some though, gotta be some 225's somewhere...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 21, 2015, 05:33:20 PM
The longest M8 I have is 210mm.  I'll look around some though, gotta be some 225's somewhere...

 ;-T A little longer would be ok, too..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 21, 2015, 05:33:38 PM
Are you sure?? After all, it's a Lario, and all... ;D

Took a little vid of mine for your listening pleasure over on the other thread.  Funny how that camera catches that distinct Italian percussion section.  ::)

See how your Bubs compare on that bugger.  Mine have reducers.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 21, 2015, 07:20:46 PM
Chuck.  May I ask:  How do you plan to limit the RPMs?

This has a Dyna S ignition. Dyna makes a rev limiter. I just haven't got a round toit, yet. <shrug> Normally, I'm pretty careful about that kind of stuff, but I've now "over revved" it once. Problem is, I don't know what the red line should be. I've been using the Lario red line, and those are really small valves. I haven't noticed any valve float..  :o but am trying to err on the side of being cautious.. ;D It's hard.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 21, 2015, 07:22:49 PM
Took a little vid of mine for your listening pleasure over on the other thread.  Funny how that camera catches that distinct Italian percussion section.  ::)

See how your Bubs compare on that bugger.  Mine have reducers.

Ok, I'll strap on a camera and take it for a ride. Prepare to swoon.. ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on March 21, 2015, 07:40:49 PM
Are you sure?? After all, it's a Lario, and all... ;D
Well I could use that engine for a drone project I have in mind........
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on March 21, 2015, 08:33:33 PM
Glad you got the stud sorted Chuck. Though I see the point about it bottoming out I suspect you would have felt that.

My impression of the plug is that it looks fine, but I wouldn't want it to be any lighter which would give rise to suspicion for me. I think, were it me, I would try one size larger main jet, just as an experiment, and see how that looked.

I wonder if Guzzi themselves could supply a red line figure?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 22, 2015, 06:40:44 AM
Glad you got the stud sorted Chuck. Though I see the point about it bottoming out I suspect you would have felt that.

My impression of the plug is that it looks fine, but I wouldn't want it to be any lighter which would give rise to suspicion for me. I think, were it me, I would try one size larger main jet, just as an experiment, and see how that looked.

I wonder if Guzzi themselves could supply a red line figure?

Yeah, I've torqued literally thousands of fasteners. I *think* I would have felt it bottom out. It's just temporary to find out what was going on, and let me run it until I get a new stud. Any idea how I can contact someone at the factory? A little googling hasn't done me much good.. and I don't blame them.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on March 22, 2015, 09:34:07 AM
  About the plug , hmm , maybe just a skoshe lean ... maybe . 

  Dusty

Yeah, that's what I'd say, too.

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zpse9rpepbg.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 22, 2015, 10:08:16 AM
I had a really bright white led light on it. It's a little more tan than what it shows, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to go a little bigger, I'd think. It has a 130 main, maybe try a 135?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on March 22, 2015, 01:53:15 PM
I think trying a 135 will give you a couple good data points about the burn and performance, telling you that 130 may be better - or not.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on March 22, 2015, 02:56:16 PM
                       
                      Change,Test,Compare,Repeat
           (http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y395/paulcony/a9410216-c1a7-464b-96f6-7d171ca6ce70_zpsbfgkz1iy.jpg)

                  Paul B. :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on March 22, 2015, 06:26:07 PM
Might be a bit of a mission getting hold of Guzzi.

You could fly a query here; http://static.piaggio.com/contact_us/form-motoguzzi-gb.htmlhttp:

//www.motoguzzi.com/en/contact

or Guzzi USA, http://www.motoguzzi-us.com/contact-us.html

Since the drone the engine was used in was (presumably) made in the US, how about it's manufacturers.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on March 22, 2015, 07:51:02 PM
Chuck
BB studs are def bottomed out from factory, torque is then applied nut to stud, obviously replacing nut and stud will be perfect but the way twin plug mod is done is to replace stud with high tensile caphead (10.9), You use slightly (-5mm) short stud and then torque bolt to case.
If stud proves too dear (Guzzi content) just buy a caphead, cut thread off end if you have too.
Or remove stud again, take off a couple of threads, retorque after marking current positition, bet it moves a bees dick, maybe a big bee !!

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 22, 2015, 08:14:29 PM
Chuck
BB studs are def bottomed out from factory, torque is then applied nut to stud, obviously replacing nut and stud will be perfect but the way twin plug mod is done is to replace stud with high tensile caphead (10.9), You use slightly (-5mm) short stud and then torque bolt to case.
If stud proves too dear (Guzzi content) just buy a caphead, cut thread off end if you have too.
Or remove stud again, take off a couple of threads, retorque after marking current positition, bet it moves a bees dick, maybe a big bee !!



Thanks for that, Martin. I've found some 8mm dia. 4130.. cheap.  ;D Also some oil hardening tool steel (01) even cheaper. I'll bet it would be fine. Now I have to find a die, and I'll make a new stud. Or, I could try cutting metric threads with my little Mickey Mouse lathe. That would actually be a fun project.. and FREE. (Guzzi content) All this depends on if Mike can't find a long stud in his pile..
Oh, and by the way, Martin.. since I have your attention..what is your gut feeling about the redline on this engine?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 22, 2015, 09:37:38 PM
Now that Chuck got the plug chop guys aroused:

I'm thinking I could go one more size jet up. Not the best pics.
Any thoughts? 

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/kevin3019/Lario/2015-03/DFDC01F6-B876-4728-8FD7-A457A4D8A691.jpg)
(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/kevin3019/Lario/603C9C97-1245-45F5-9AF8-A76BB765049C.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 22, 2015, 09:40:42 PM
Now that Chuck got the plug chop guys aroused:

I'm thinking I could go one more size jet up. Not the best pics.
Any thoughts? 

Is that from a plug chop, or is that just a plug you've run for a while?  If the latter, how many miles of what kind of running?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 22, 2015, 09:47:08 PM
Is that from a plug chop, or is that just a plug you've run for a while?  If the latter, how many miles of what kind of running?
Under 100 miles of spirited driving but not a chop cut at WOT. I know it's tough to tell what's doing what exactly. I've been steadily going up and feel I'm closing in.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on March 22, 2015, 10:05:50 PM
Thanks for that, Martin. I've found some 8mm dia. 4130.. cheap.  ;D Also some oil hardening tool steel (01) even cheaper. I'll bet it would be fine. Now I have to find a die, and I'll make a new stud. Or, I could try cutting metric threads with my little Mickey Mouse lathe. That would actually be a fun project.. and FREE. (Guzzi content) All this depends on if Mike can't find a long stud in his pile..
Oh, and by the way, Martin.. since I have your attention..what is your gut feeling about the redline on this engine?

I reckon you and I are both old enough to know by "feel"with neither a number nor tacho but off the top of my head with your long manifolds, that thing will be over by 7500, a little over rev safe but no point unless someone will get past you going into a corner !!!
Changing up for torque peaks gets you there faster in most cases, absolute top speed can be got with gearing if you need to try (dear--NGC)

I bent valves on my LM in 1979 trying to find out safe limit, since then I can hit float without hurting anything but choose not to, bad day when I do that again, grunt rules.
As a very famous tuner said to me recently, horsepower sells engines, torque wins races. Yours should have loads.

Roll on the roll on between the 3 hot rod small blocks, much better than any dyno runs
60mph, top gear, open the taps, vid essential WG viewing, sweepstake would be appropriate
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 22, 2015, 10:12:56 PM
No luck here on the studs Chuck.  Sorry man!!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 22, 2015, 10:17:16 PM
I reckon you and I are both old enough to know by "feel"with neither a number nor tacho but off the top of my head with your long manifolds, that thing will be over by 7500, a little over rev safe but no point unless someone will get past you going into a corner !!!
Changing up for torque peaks gets you there faster in most cases, absolute top speed can be got with gearing if you need to try (dear--NGC)

I bent valves on my LM in 1979 trying to find out safe limit, since then I can hit float without hurting anything but choose not to, bad day when I do that again, grunt rules.
As a very famous tuner said to me recently, horsepower sells engines, torque wins races. Yours should have loads.

Roll on the roll on between the 3 hot rod small blocks, much better than any dyno runs
60mph, top gear, open the taps, vid essential WG viewing, sweepstake would be appropriate

Man, at 60 I'm in third gear....lol!  Two more to go....hit 126 mph Friday morning early...I'll post up a vid this week ~; ~; ~; ~;
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on March 22, 2015, 10:27:31 PM
Now that Chuck got the plug chop guys aroused:

I'm thinking I could go one more size jet up. Not the best pics.
Any thoughts? 

(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/kevin3019/Lario/2015-03/DFDC01F6-B876-4728-8FD7-A457A4D8A691.jpg)
(http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac249/kevin3019/Lario/603C9C97-1245-45F5-9AF8-A76BB765049C.jpg)

 kD , looks like one size up wouldn't hurt . Of course , riding old Brits for years probably makes me prefer to err on the rich side  :) How does it perform at higher revs ?

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on March 22, 2015, 10:39:01 PM
Man, at 60 I'm in third gear....lol!  Two more to go....hit 126 mph Friday morning early...I'll post up a vid this week ~; ~; ~; ~;

I could be in first, not the point, roll on at 60 in top tells all the stories, you "might" catch up but my money's on Chuck being far away.
However, a good BB would already be outside the bar, owner grinning !!!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Penderic on March 22, 2015, 11:23:18 PM
Excusa if previously posted (I gave a quik look) I found an old pic that may be related .....

(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/todero_moteurs580x358_zpsvy2shjek.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 23, 2015, 04:57:49 AM
I could be in first, not the point, roll on at 60 in top tells all the stories, you "might" catch up but my money's on Chuck being far away.
However, a good BB would already be outside the bar, owner grinning !!!


Precisely why I lightened my internals/lowered gearing was to get better low-end reaction; it likes the switch. Mike, that's quite a change from the stocker!  :o. Impressive top-end.

Dusty, it's been a lesson since getting the bike and being WAY rich. I couldn't get out of the subdivision without fouled plugs. Ran great up top but between 3-4k RPM was coughing and spitting and would foul out. I put a smaller atomizer in it and started there and it ran smooth as silk. Up top it needed lots more so have gone from 150 to 168 mains so far. I'm sensing a hint of hesitation yet around 6k but once enticed it will now willingly go. That's been the sticking point. So, I will ride it again to make sure I sensed that correctly and put in the 170's. Reason I did the 264 atomizer was because of the lows/mids getting all misty eyed when fuel was thrown at it. Not so with the 264, but she likes the fuel up top no doubt.

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 23, 2015, 05:53:47 AM
No luck here on the studs Chuck.  Sorry man!!

Ok, thanks for the effort. I've not found anything, either. Time to order some stock.
126? WoW!

And.. kool picture, Penderic. Haven't seen it. Wish we could get our hands on two out of those three..  ;D :BEER: I'd even take the backwards one.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 23, 2015, 07:43:34 AM
I could be in first, not the point, roll on at 60 in top tells all the stories, you "might" catch up but my money's on Chuck being far away.
However, a good BB would already be outside the bar, owner grinning !!!


Ha ha!  No substitute for cubic inches!  Yeah, and Chucks engine is a torque monster I bet....Of course I'd catch the BB when he had to stop for gas... LOL
You are right, a 60 mph roll on it is!  We will see:)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 23, 2015, 09:01:46 AM
Ha ha!  No substitute for cubic inches!  Yeah, and Chucks engine is a torque monster I bet....Of course I'd catch the BB when he had to stop for gas... LOL
You are right, a 60 mph roll on it is!  We will see:)
I'll see  about strapping on a camera..
 


Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 23, 2015, 11:12:04 AM
Oh! Like a dummy, I forgot to check what thread it is. Is it M8X1?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on March 23, 2015, 11:54:18 AM
Oh! Like a dummy, I forgot to check what thread it is. Is it M8X1?

I'd guess them to be M8 x 1.25
This is just a thought, but maybe you would be better off using threaded rod. Good threaded rod is usually rolled thread. Cutting a thread with a die isn't optimum, especially for use in a head stud. Though, lathe cutting would be better. A threaded rod would also spread equal stress along the full length of the stud(in theory that is). I'm sure you method will work fine. Just throwing it out there as another option. The thought of it being different might bother me. :)  McMaster-Carr has some at a reasonable price. Good luck.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-rods/=wfpeww (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-rods/=wfpeww)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 23, 2015, 12:08:48 PM
I'd guess them to be M8 x 1.25
This is just a thought, but maybe you would be better off using threaded rod. Good threaded rod is usually rolled thread. Cutting a thread with a die isn't optimum, especially for use in a head stud. Though, lathe cutting would be better. A threaded rod would also spread equal stress along the full length of the stud(in theory that is). I'm sure you method will work fine. Just throwing it out there as another option. The thought of it being different might bother me. :)  McMaster-Carr has some at a reasonable price. Good luck.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-rods/=wfpeww (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-rods/=wfpeww)

Thanks for that, Dick. Great idea. M8x1.25 class 10.9 would do it, I'd think. Cheap.  ;D I would think that 25 ft. lbs applied to a threaded rod would equal 25 ft. lbs. applied to a stud. I won't let it bother me.  ;D
FWIW, if I would have cut them with a die, I'd have taken some pains and filed and polished the last thread area. That's where the stress riser is, of course.
When I have one of the threaded rods in hand, I'll turn the nut off the oem stud and see if the threads are ok. If so, I'll reinstall it. I'll bet it's boogered up, though.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 24, 2015, 12:28:18 AM
I'll see  about strapping on a camera..
 



Torque challenge ride one. Full throttle roll on at 60 mph, in top gear.  2010 V7 Classic Quattro Valvole.  26 degrees C. 22 seconds from 60 to 120.  124 MPH top speed reached.  7200 rpm.  Whoo Haa!!

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/th_CE49E9D8-3BFA-414B-A4B8-567786B6C05A_zpsfi3jibco.mp4) (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/CE49E9D8-3BFA-414B-A4B8-567786B6C05A_zpsfi3jibco.mp4)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Xlratr on March 24, 2015, 03:56:03 AM
As a very famous tuner said to me recently, horsepower sells engines, torque wins races.

I'm probably not telling anybody anything new here, but strictly speaking it's Horsepower that wins races too. Every time.  :-)

If you weld a long pole to a wheel and hang a weight on it, you'll get lots of torque, but until the wheel starts turning, you won't go anywhere.

Torque plus RPM = Horsepower and it's Power that makes a motorcycle move.

Having more Torque is good, because the more you have at any given RPM, the more Horsepower you'll get. They're mathematically related.

A V-Twin will have good roll on acceleration because the higher torque at low RPM means it makes more Horsepower there than other engine configurations can.

Here's the formula:  Torque (lb/ft) / 5252 x RPM = Horsepower. That's why the Torque and Power curves on a Dyno chart will always meet at 5252 RPM (assuming the same scale).

So when we talk about good low end Torque, we really mean good low end Horsepower.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 24, 2015, 05:58:17 AM
Alrighty, now.. ;-T I have it at 9 seconds.. is that right? Kinda hard to see the speedo. No way do I have anywhere that I could run to top speed around here.
Snow/sleet here yesterday. No telling when I can make a 60-80 run in fifth.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 24, 2015, 06:00:53 AM
Yikes! Just got the invoice from McMaster-Carr. Had them throw in some misc. nuts and washers. They charged me $21 shipping and fondling on a $24 order.  :o
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: biking sailor on March 24, 2015, 07:19:14 AM
Just throwing this out there...

Anyone else have hesitation using a full threaded rod in place of a full size diameter shaft with threads cut on the ends, from a stretch standpoint?  Yield to failure may not be a concern but stretch???  What say you leaned ones?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 24, 2015, 07:27:22 AM
Alrighty, now.. ;-T I have it at 9 seconds.. is that right? Kinda hard to see the speedo. No way do I have anywhere that I could run to top speed around here.
Snow/sleet here yesterday. No telling when I can make a 60-80 run in fifth.
Yep, 9 seconds, 60 to 100.
On the stud issue, I would put the right thing in there.  Either get a stud made, or find one from another engine that is the right length.  That way there is no question about it.  Just my .02 cents.  ;-T ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 24, 2015, 08:22:48 AM
Quote
find one from another engine that is the right length

I'd be more than happy to do that.  ;D there's kind of a limited selection, though. I'll see what Carr's threaded rod looks like. If they are rolled threads, I'll probably go with it if mine is bad. If they're not, I'll make one.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 24, 2015, 08:51:26 AM
Torque challenge ride one. Full throttle roll on at 60 mph, in top gear.  2010 V7 Classic Quattro Valvole.  26 degrees C. 22 seconds from 60 to 120.  124 MPH top speed reached.  7200 rpm.  Whoo Haa!!

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/th_CE49E9D8-3BFA-414B-A4B8-567786B6C05A_zpsfi3jibco.mp4) (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/CE49E9D8-3BFA-414B-A4B8-567786B6C05A_zpsfi3jibco.mp4)

124 is doing damn well. Quite a bump from the stock V7. In those temps did the Speedo you were wearing stay on?? Were your feet off the end??   ;D  That was cool to see man, thanks.  ;-T
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 24, 2015, 09:51:57 AM
Here's the formula:  Torque (lb/ft) / 5252 x RPM = Horsepower.

Good post.  One minor correction:  Torque (lb-ft) / 5252 x RPM = Horsepower
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on March 24, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
Just throwing this out there...

Anyone else have hesitation using a full threaded rod in place of a full size diameter shaft with threads cut on the ends, from a stretch standpoint?  Yield to failure may not be a concern but stretch???  What say you leaned ones?

Yeah, I was able to get those threaded rods at Ace Hardware.  I couldn't find long bolts (missing center 4 on the EV sump), so I got the rods and nuts, epoxied it, and cut off the excess.  The nuts never broke loose.  I did find the correct bolts later. 

Just the aftermath of paying an experienced mechanic do some routine maintenance.   :-\
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 24, 2015, 11:28:01 AM
Hopefully, this threaded rod from M-C is a little better than all thread at the hardware store.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on March 24, 2015, 09:42:34 PM
Just throwing this out there...

Anyone else have hesitation using a full threaded rod in place of a full size diameter shaft with threads cut on the ends, from a stretch standpoint?  Yield to failure may not be a concern but stretch???  What say you leaned ones?

Yes I do. Not sure why though, just gut feeling and general suspicion. It would I suspect be cheaper to make studs that way, so there might just be a reason why they don't.
Don't think I would do that in a stressed situation.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: RinkRat II on March 24, 2015, 10:15:54 PM
 Tensile strength is tensile strength. The mass of the rod is what the ratings are based on , the thread pitch and count is where the holding power comes from.
  12.9 rating on a metric fastener is higher than a grade 8 in tensile strength by quite a bit and holding down a head and jug along with 4 or 5 other studs would be no problem.
     
    Paul B. :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on March 24, 2015, 10:17:00 PM
 Hmm , Mwrenn will have his hotrod at Cedar Vale , Chuckie , c'mon man , the gauntlet has been tossed . Lots of room to do this thing , and we are on good terms with the local po po  :D

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 25, 2015, 05:44:42 AM
Hmm , Mwrenn will have his hotrod at Cedar Vale , Chuckie , c'mon man , the gauntlet has been tossed . Lots of room to do this thing , and we are on good terms with the local po po  :D

  Dusty

Dang, I would love to, but we'll *just* be getting back from California, and it's a 700 mile interstate burn.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on March 25, 2015, 06:19:12 AM
Yikes! Just got the invoice from McMaster-Carr. Had them throw in some misc. nuts and washers. They charged me $21 shipping and fondling on a $24 order.  :o

Their shipping has gone up somewhat, just like everything else, but they are still reasonable. Either they made a mistake or your order was shipped from multiple locations. They will charge you multiple shipping in that case. Check your order again.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 25, 2015, 06:26:42 AM
Their shipping has gone up somewhat, just like everything else, but they are still reasonable. Either they made a mistake or your order was shipped from multiple locations. They will charge you multiple shipping in that case. Check your order again.

Yeah, that's what they did. All the small parts came yesterday. The threaded rod was shipped from Georgia. Naturally, they didn't tell me that I was going to get hosed.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Dick on March 25, 2015, 06:32:33 AM
Just throwing this out there...

Anyone else have hesitation using a full threaded rod in place of a full size diameter shaft with threads cut on the ends, from a stretch standpoint?  Yield to failure may not be a concern but stretch???  What say you leaned ones?

Many cylinder, head, rod bolts have their shank diameter below thread diameter in order to distribute the clamping force equally along the full length of bolt/stud instead of it being concentrated along the thread minor diameter only. I remember when Honda came out with their CBX. They used conventional style cylinder/head studs only to have gasket leakage. They did a recall and replaced the studs with what looked almost like threaded rod, but not quite. They certainly weren't as beefy looking as the straight shank continuous diameter stud. Interestingly enough, I later dug into an older CB 350 Honda and found the same type stud as was used as a replacement update for the CBX. Though, I'm not quite sure they reduce the diameter to thread root diameter. If they are good quality rolled thread, I thing they may work ok. JMO.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 25, 2015, 08:10:17 AM
As long as nothing catches a thread, I don't see how 25lb/lb won't equal 25ft/lb. it's simply a clamping force and as long as the rod holds up I see no problem. I think we're overthinking this like.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 25, 2015, 08:24:08 AM
Yeah, that's what they did. All the small parts came yesterday. The threaded rod was shipped from Georgia. Naturally, they didn't tell me that I was going to get hosed.  ;D

They let you know when an order will have to ship from two warehouses, but you have to know the lingo.  If it's a phone order, they say something like "That can ship today from our Atlanta warehouse." for example, instead of just "That can ship today."   If you don't catch it and cancel that item, you're getting two shipments.  With a web order, it's in the order list in the "ships" column as two extra words "from Atlanta" under "today.".  I got surprised with multiple shipments a couple times until I figured it out.

Interestingly, they charge only actual shipping cost, no handling charges or other fees, so they didn't profit from your misfortune.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 25, 2015, 11:08:59 AM
They let you know when an order will have to ship from two warehouses, but you have to know the lingo.  If it's a phone order, they say something like "That can ship today from our Atlanta warehouse." for example, instead of just "That can ship today."   If you don't catch it and cancel that item, you're getting two shipments.  With a web order, it's in the order list in the "ships" column as two extra words "from Atlanta" under "today.".  I got surprised with multiple shipments a couple times until I figured it out.

Interestingly, they charge only actual shipping cost, no handling charges or other fees, so they didn't profit from your misfortune.

Thanks, it was a web order and I didn't catch it. <shrug> Live and learn..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Penderic on March 25, 2015, 11:18:23 AM
Shipping and Handling extra!  ~;

(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/0-0A-Allison-PopularMechanics-Feb1947-316x550_zps2fkkalul.jpg)

Next project?  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on March 25, 2015, 11:24:00 AM
Needs 140 octane though so a Guzzi person wouldn't want it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Penderic on March 25, 2015, 11:55:37 AM
His big flat bed truck runs on regular. And just down the street ....... hmmm
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/walnut-ridge-airfield-arkansas-boneyard-fighters_zpsgmytejmg.jpg)  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 25, 2015, 12:02:39 PM
I think I'm going to be sick..


I know a guy that bought two new P38s after the war. He said, Chuck, I made a killing on them. Three hundred dollars..  ::)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 25, 2015, 05:35:42 PM
Strange strange. Just did get the threaded rod.. nice. Rolled threads black oxided. Thought I'd ride the Lario down to the shop in case I get time to work on it tomorrow. The left cylinder wouldn't fire a lick.  :o Thought, WTF? Plug wire must be loose, either at the cap or coil. Putt putted it down on the other cylinder. Checked for spark. Gots it. Tested the plug on my spark plug tester. It's fine.
I would think if the stupid white float had sunk, it would be super rich, but would at least fire. <scratching head> I suppose a valve *could* be stuck open, but that's a stretch..
It was running fine when I rode it up to the Guzzi Garage (tm) a couple of days or so ago.
Oh, well. Maybe I'l *make* time to look at it tomorrow.  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on March 25, 2015, 05:56:20 PM
 Chuck ,I still need an engine for my drone project , just saying.....  ::)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 25, 2015, 06:56:09 PM
Chuck ,I still need an engine for my drone project , just saying.....  ::)

You talking cash??  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Stormtruck2 on March 25, 2015, 08:22:36 PM
Strange strange. Just did get the threaded rod.. nice. Rolled threads black oxided. Thought I'd ride the Lario down to the shop in case I get time to work on it tomorrow. The left cylinder wouldn't fire a lick.  :o Thought, WTF? Plug wire must be loose, either at the cap or coil. Putt putted it down on the other cylinder. Checked for spark. Gots it. Tested the plug on my spark plug tester. It's fine.
I would think if the stupid white float had sunk, it would be super rich, but would at least fire. <scratching head> I suppose a valve *could* be stuck open, but that's a stretch..
It was running fine when I rode it up to the Guzzi Garage (tm) a couple of days or so ago.
Oh, well. Maybe I'l *make* time to look at it tomorrow.  ;D

"Ran when parked"  ;) :D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 25, 2015, 08:51:35 PM
You talking cash??  ;D
I am!!  Lol  :) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 25, 2015, 10:10:29 PM
Strange strange. Just did get the threaded rod.. nice. Rolled threads black oxided. Thought I'd ride the Lario down to the shop in case I get time to work on it tomorrow. The left cylinder wouldn't fire a lick.  :o Thought, WTF? Plug wire must be loose, either at the cap or coil. Putt putted it down on the other cylinder. Checked for spark. Gots it. Tested the plug on my spark plug tester. It's fine.
I would think if the stupid white float had sunk, it would be super rich, but would at least fire. <scratching head> I suppose a valve *could* be stuck open, but that's a stretch..
It was running fine when I rode it up to the Guzzi Garage (tm) a couple of days or so ago.
Oh, well. Maybe I'l *make* time to look at it tomorrow.  ;D

Should fire if bowl is flooded. Check that the opposite isn't true in that your fuel inlet seats haven't unscrewed themselves and you're starved of gas. Don't ask me how I know this can happen. One cylinder then the other for me. Not my doing. If you don't have much gas come out the bowl you'll have an idea.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 26, 2015, 05:02:18 AM
Oh, I know what it is before even going out to the shop. Woke up in the middle of the night and thought, "the throttle cable has come unhooked from the slide." That happened one time before a few thousand miles ago when Unkept came back from a ride saying it wasn't very powerful.  ;D I just put it down to careless workmanship on the guy that put it together.  ~;  There's always been too much slack in the throttle assembly. Need to look at that, and find out why.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 26, 2015, 07:00:05 AM
Oh, I know what it is before even going out to the shop. Woke up in the middle of the night and thought, "the throttle cable has come unhooked from the slide." That happened one time before a few thousand miles ago when Unkept came back from a ride saying it wasn't very powerful.  ;D I just put it down to careless workmanship on the guy that put it together.  ~;  There's always been too much slack in the throttle assembly. Need to look at that, and find out why.

Isn't it funny how your subconscious figures things out every time.  Something to be said for taking a break and coming back to it....glad it's an easy fix!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 26, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
Isn't it funny how your subconscious figures things out every time.  Something to be said for taking a break and coming back to it....glad it's an easy fix!

Yeah, I've always said I do my best work in bed.. ;D :BEER:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 26, 2015, 08:04:04 AM
Yeah, I've always said I do my best work in bed.. ;D :BEER:

Yep, figured many things out sleeping on them. The mind keeps going and going. Glad you caught it before tearing things apart. Those throttle assemblies aren't very "high tech", but let us know what's going on there if you would.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 26, 2015, 04:40:31 PM
That wasn't it. (!!) You could have knocked me down with a feather, as the old saying goes. Thought WTF????
Ok, start at square one. Did a leak down. 78/80. Cylinders don't get any better than that.  ;-T Yes, the valves are opening and closing.  ;D Checked plug again with my plug tester. Ok. Hmmmm. Loosened the float bowl. Yep, there's fuel in it. Hmmmmm again. Checked spark again.. got spark.. but maybe it looks a little weird. Right side looks a little weird, too.. but it ran. Hmmmm again.
Ran out of time. We're getting ready to blast off to SoCal, and I have some Honeydo's to do.
So.
I've had the Dyna coils on there for a very few miles. They're the green 3 ohm ones. Read on here it's a good idea to put a ballast resistor on those, so I did. It was 2.3 ohms on my meter. It was getting warm with the cranking I did. I'm out of time, but is the ballast resistor the problem?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Murray on March 26, 2015, 04:55:53 PM
That wasn't it. (!!) You could have knocked me down with a feather, as the old saying goes. Thought WTF????
Ok, start at square one. Did a leak down. 78/80. Cylinders don't get any better than that.  ;-T Yes, the valves are opening and closing.  ;D Checked plug again with my plug tester. Ok. Hmmmm. Loosened the float bowl. Yep, there's fuel in it. Hmmmmm again. Checked spark again.. got spark.. but maybe it looks a little weird. Right side looks a little weird, too.. but it ran. Hmmmm again.
Ran out of time. We're getting ready to blast off to SoCal, and I have some Honeydo's to do.
So.
I've had the Dyna coils on there for a very few miles. They're the green 3 ohm ones. Read on here it's a good idea to put a ballast resistor on those, so I did. It was 2.3 ohms on my meter. It was getting warm with the cranking I did. I'm out of time, but is the ballast resistor the problem?

What most vehicles with ballast resistors do is bypass it for the starting cranking process and then switch it back in for running.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on March 27, 2015, 05:29:01 AM
Torque challenge ride one. Full throttle roll on at 60 mph, in top gear.  2010 V7 Classic Quattro Valvole.  26 degrees C. 22 seconds from 60 to 120.  124 MPH top speed reached.  7200 rpm.  Whoo Haa!!

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/th_CE49E9D8-3BFA-414B-A4B8-567786B6C05A_zpsfi3jibco.mp4) (http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af201/mwrenn/CE49E9D8-3BFA-414B-A4B8-567786B6C05A_zpsfi3jibco.mp4)
Sounds clean but not sure vid comparing is the go, couldn't see tach nor speedo, nor clock, not doubting, just want to see
VID of the 3 of you side by side, one left hand drops from sky at 60 mph, taps opened, finish line for the bravest
Nearly as good as rolling race, dead engines, very top of hill, first to highest point after bottom of mountain wins.

And yes, I'll run out of fuel first in winning former but not in latter, BB's kill SB's in rolling race, esp 2 up !!!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 27, 2015, 08:56:03 AM
I've had the Dyna coils on there for a very few miles. They're the green 3 ohm ones. Read on here it's a good idea to put a ballast resistor on those, so I did. It was 2.3 ohms on my meter. It was getting warm with the cranking I did. I'm out of time, but is the ballast resistor the problem?

It's easy enough to wire around the resistors for a test, but I can't imagine the resistors are keeping a cylinder from firing unless one of them has failed open.  I ran 1Ω resistors with my Dyna green coils for quite a while with no ill effects.  Since the heat from the resistors is outside of the coils, a 3Ω coil with a 1Ω resistor produces about the same coil heat as a 5Ω coil.  Actually slightly less.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on March 27, 2015, 09:34:07 AM
That wasn't it. (!!) You could have knocked me down with a feather, as the old saying goes. Thought WTF????
Ok, start at square one. Did a leak down. 78/80. Cylinders don't get any better than that.  ;-T Yes, the valves are opening and closing.  ;D Checked plug again with my plug tester. Ok. Hmmmm. Loosened the float bowl. Yep, there's fuel in it. Hmmmmm again. Checked spark again.. got spark.. but maybe it looks a little weird. Right side looks a little weird, too.. but it ran. Hmmmm again.
Ran out of time. We're getting ready to blast off to SoCal, and I have some Honeydo's to do.
So.
I've had the Dyna coils on there for a very few miles. They're the green 3 ohm ones. Read on here it's a good idea to put a ballast resistor on those, so I did. It was 2.3 ohms on my meter. It was getting warm with the cranking I did. I'm out of time, but is the ballast resistor the problem?

I know you hate hearing this Chuck, but my money's on fueling.  Take the bowl off the bad cylinder and take a quick look-see at things being correct.  You'll have gas spill out the bowl when loosening from what you have in the line, just hard to tell if it's the right amount that settles in the bowl.  Check to make sure that float needle jet seat hasn't unscrewed itself.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2015, 09:54:49 AM
Didn't really have time, but it was driving me nuts. Took the ballast resistor out of the system, and I have a nice fat blue spark again. Just sayin..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2015, 10:01:22 AM
It's easy enough to wire around the resistors for a test, but I can't imagine the resistors are keeping a cylinder from firing unless one of them has failed open.  I ran 1Ω resistors with my Dyna green coils for quite a while with no ill effects.  Since the heat from the resistors is outside of the coils, a 3Ω coil with a 1Ω resistor produces about the same coil heat as a 5Ω coil.  Actually slightly less.

this is what I was using. Bad idea?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/4-004_zpswkzcxrz2.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 27, 2015, 10:51:25 AM
this is what I was using. Bad idea?

It's a bit more resistance than necessary, and may be the problem.  I guess when you have time you can see how it runs without the resistors, and then decide if you want to install some with less resistance.  Mine were Dale 1Ω 20W industrial resistors:

(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/motorcycles/guzzi/coil_resistors/coil_resistors_zpsd0e46c63.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2015, 01:15:24 PM
Thanks for that. I've been running Mouser's secondary ignition with 3 ohm Dynas with no resistor for years.. I think I'll give it a go on the Lario.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/001-22.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/001-22.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 27, 2015, 01:26:40 PM
I've been running Mouser's secondary ignition with 3 ohm Dynas with no resistor for years.

What is that?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on March 27, 2015, 03:29:42 PM
Thanks for that. I've been running Mouser's secondary ignition with 3 ohm Dynas with no resistor for years.. I think I'll give it a go on the Lario.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/001-22.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/001-22.jpg.html)

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Only problem with the green coils I've seen was when the rider left the ignition switch on with engine not running for a few minutes. Coil cracks open then.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2015, 03:39:18 PM
I don't see why it wouldn't work. Only problem with the green coils I've seen was when the rider left the ignition switch on with engine not running for a few minutes. Coil cracks open then.

That happened one time with Mouser. A prospective builder was getting out of the front cockpit, and knocked the master switch on, unbeknownst to me. Ran the battery down and fried a coil. Didn't crack open, though.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2015, 03:42:29 PM
What is that?
The primary ignition is a magneto, driven off the end of the crank. The secondary ignition is a Dyna S, using a special housing, and driven off the stock VW distributer drive. Little 10 mm scooter plugs opposite the standard VW plugs give true dual ignition.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on March 27, 2015, 03:48:20 PM
The primary ignition is a magneto, driven off the end of the crank. The secondary ignition is a Dyna S, using a special housing, and driven off the stock VW distributer drive. Little 10 mm scooter plugs opposite the standard VW plugs give true dual ignition.

Thanks, very unusual.  So it sounds like the two plugs in each cylinder get their timing set completely independently.  Did I read that right?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 27, 2015, 03:49:50 PM
Thanks, very unusual.  So it sounds like the two plugs in each cylinder get their timing set completely independently.  Did I read that right?
Yep, it's two completely independent ignition systems.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jas67 on March 29, 2015, 07:47:00 AM
That's the plan. Demo rides should be available..assuming I haven't blown it up by then. ;D

Even more reason to make it to the national!    Hopefully, Mike will have his 4V V7 there too!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 29, 2015, 08:11:59 AM
Even more reason to make it to the national!    Hopefully, Mike will have his 4V V7 there too!

I let my membership lapse last year.  I will gladly join again, and try to attend the National.  Need to find out when and where...and make a plan!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 29, 2015, 10:59:06 AM
I let my membership lapse last year.  I will gladly join again, and try to attend the National.  Need to find out when and where...and make a plan!

You don't need to be a member. It's in New Hampshire, a fair piece from you.. ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: mwrenn on March 29, 2015, 03:06:12 PM
You don't need to be a member. It's in New Hampshire, a fair piece from you.. ;D

Oh man, it would be a fun ride.  Probably take too long....I kinda need to keep my job...lol
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 29, 2015, 05:04:45 PM
Oh man, it would be a fun ride.  Probably take too long....I kinda need to keep my job...lol

I vaguely remember what one of those is..  ;D
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 11, 2015, 05:15:12 PM
Thought I'd update this thread. I've been having a *really* good time with this engine. A couple of days ago, I was out caning the crap out of the MZ. It's pretty sophisticated for what it is. Big Paioli forks, stiff chassis, Bilstein mono shock, Yamaha racing swingarm, etc. Handles much better than the Lario, but that engine is as boring as a BMW.  :evil: :smiley:
Took the Aero Lario out today to warm it up for it's 3000 mile service, and I was grinning in my helmet before I got out of the driveway. What a hoot! I love operating it, and listening to it run. I'm in lust.. after all, to me a motorcycle is all about the motor.
Want to have some fun with your small block? Just install part number 13 40 46 10-507..
Ok, enough singing it's praises.
When we were at the Nationals in N.H., Dorcia asked about the fifth gear whine. This was the first time she's been on the Lario this year. I told her why it was whining, and she said, "It's louder than last year.." "Really??" "Really. Is it going to lock up??" I assured her it wouldn't, but she still wanted me to fix it.
Ok.
Found a slightly used baby Beaver transmission, and looked at the options.
(1) Just bung it on there. (Pete)  :smiley:
(2) Put the primary gears from the Lario transmission in the new one.
(3) Put the new fifth gear set out of the beaver transmission in the Lario.. I've already done the steel insert in the back of the box. Don't particularly want to do it again.
Decided to take the path of least resistance and just bung it on there.. So..
Drain the oil
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsxpenwmgw.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsxpenwmgw.jpg.html)
Since it is a cheap small block, there's no magnetic drain plug, so I took one of my really powerful magnets and ran it all over the bottom of the drain pan. Didn't really expect to find much..
While I was doing all this, I let the rear drive drain. Sean Fader, small block guru extraordinaire, once told me not to use synthetic lube in the small block rear drive. The seal that's hard to get at tends to leak.. so the rear gets dino with moly.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpszj5sxibb.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpszj5sxibb.jpg.html)
Well, I'll be darned. I don't like the look of what I found.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-003_zpsfeltwnib.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-003_zpsfeltwnib.jpg.html)
 Dusty looking steel particles I can live with.. slivers not so much. I've learned to listen when Dorcia tells me something about the sound of machines. She picked up on it when the original 4v engine was starting to wipe a cam lobe. She's OCD, and *very* detail oriented.
So.
Tomorrow, we swap out the transmission unless I decide to play airplane. It's supposed to be nice.  :smiley: I'm loving this retirement gig. Still.
Edit for typo..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Muzz on August 11, 2015, 05:39:22 PM
I must admit to being a bit paranoid over dust like that and 5th gear whines Chuck.  One of the 5th gears was an absolute mess.  What was worse was that the 1500 odd miles with all that hardening dust took out the shaft as well.  5th has a special split roller bearing in it and that uses the shaft as an inner. It works fine but when it goes belly up the results are not nice.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 11, 2015, 05:46:24 PM
I must admit to being a bit paranoid over dust like that and 5th gear whines Chuck.  One of the 5th gears was an absolute mess.  What was worse was that the 1500 odd miles with all that hardening dust took out the shaft as well.  5th has a special split roller bearing in it and that uses the shaft as an inner. It works fine but when it goes belly up the results are not nice.

Thanks for that. It'll be uh.. interesting when we open it up.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: leafman60 on August 11, 2015, 08:19:40 PM
Were any dyno runs ever done on that rig? I'm curious about what sort of power it makes and where it makes it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 12, 2015, 07:49:16 AM
Were any dyno runs ever done on that rig? I'm curious about what sort of power it makes and where it makes it.

Strangely enough.. I have a website up as we speak (in Indy) that does dyno tuning. 3 runs for $250.  (!) I plan to give em a call and see what they'll charge to just do one run. I'll offer them 20 bux.  :evil: No tuning, just run it..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John Ulrich on August 12, 2015, 08:01:40 AM
Strangely enough.. I have a website up as we speak (in Indy) that does dyno tuning. 3 runs for $250.  (!) I plan to give em a call and see what they'll charge to just do one run. I'll offer them 20 bux.  :evil: No tuning, just run it..

The local multi-line + Guzzi shop had dyno pulls at their summer event a few years back.  $20.00 for the Ambo, the crowd loved it!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 12, 2015, 12:14:36 PM
Thanks for that, JN.. 100 bux plus extra for adding an O2 sensor bung.. hmmm. I guess I just don't care that much. :smiley: but I'll think about it.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: oldbike54 on August 12, 2015, 12:27:21 PM
 Chuckie , the old BMW literature stated re HP , "ADEQUATE" , think that applies here  :laugh:

  Dusty
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on August 12, 2015, 12:28:01 PM
Calling around will give you a different price for each call.  I was interested in doing some exhaust system tests a couple years ago, and a guy near Charlotte, NC offered to let me do all the runs I wanted in exchange for a case of beer.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 12, 2015, 12:36:42 PM
I'm an EAA tech counselor, and I generally advise people to not make changes to plans of an aircraft project. It can, and probably will have unintended consequences farther on. Generally, they are bad.  :smiley:
When I made the chin fairing mounts lower to get the chin fairing to clear the deeper Aero oil pan, that had unintended consequences, too. I can now pull the chin fairing for an oil change without dropping the exhaust. :grin: I'd rather be lucky than good.. Unfortunately the exhaust has to come off to pull the transmission, so it's already gone in this picture.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zpsnblnlnbk.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zpsnblnlnbk.jpg.html)
If you remember, I mad a mod to the transmission breather so I could put in the full liter of oil without it puking out.
made a copper tube that goes above the frame and back
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsoka6ldsy.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsoka6ldsy.jpg.html)
with a catch can in the battery compartment.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zpsvkvlcigz.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zpsvkvlcigz.jpg.html)
Several thousand miles later, it's completely dry, so maybe that's a case of overkill. Works, though.
I don't remember documenting the relay to the new Dyna coils. The power to the coils comes from the kill switch. Those are really wimpy little wires and switches in the switchgear. Probably all old small block guys should consider doing this, too. I wrapped it in foam to isolate it from vibration. Don't know if that is necessary, but it works, too. It's never missed a beat.

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-006_zpsfldzdh1x.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-006_zpsfldzdh1x.jpg.html)
Unfortunately, the Aero engine oil pan isn't flat on the bottom like the Lario, so we'll see how well it will sit on the box with a couple of shims under it. To this point, it's taken an hour and a half, and all that remains to do is unhook the shocks, pull the bolts that hold the engine and transmission to the frame and wheelbarrow everything away on the front wheel.
Smallblocks are easy..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-005_zpsgwurq5pg.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-005_zpsgwurq5pg.jpg.html)
It's entirely too nice a day to be cooped up in the shop, though. It'll have to wait until later.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 12, 2015, 12:37:58 PM
Calling around will give you a different price for each call.  I was interested in doing some exhaust system tests a couple years ago, and a guy near Charlotte, NC offered to let me do all the runs I wanted in exchange for a case of beer.

That's more my price.. :smiley: :boozing:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Mayor_of_BBQ on August 12, 2015, 01:28:17 PM

If you remember, I mad a mod to the transmission breather so I could put in the full liter of oil without it puking out.
made a copper tube that goes above the frame and back
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsoka6ldsy.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsoka6ldsy.jpg.html)
with a catch can in the battery compartment.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zpsvkvlcigz.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zpsvkvlcigz.jpg.html)
Several thousand miles later, it's completely dry, so maybe that's a case of overkill. Works, though.


My catch can hasn't seen a drop either Chuck... I was thinking I'll just pull the can, put a loop in the hose and snip it a little shorter.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 13, 2015, 01:51:18 PM
Ok, where were we? Oh, yeah. Now that it's a bagger  :rolleyes: the Lario is a little more difficult to take apart. Had to get Dorcia to hold the front end while I slid the board between the 2x4s. Still pretty easy, though. Another hour.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsmkk37arc.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-001_zpsmkk37arc.jpg.html)
The rest is pretty self explanatory..
Pull the swing arm pins and roll the swing arm assembly away
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-002_zpshuef2dw3.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-002_zpshuef2dw3.jpg.html)
Pull the transmission
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-003_zpsqn9ubdzu.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-003_zpsqn9ubdzu.jpg.html)
Just a little finesse required to slide the beaver trans on..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/4-004_zpszmnrbnxb.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/4-004_zpszmnrbnxb.jpg.html)
Bolt it to the engine and frame.. and in 15 minutes the trans is swapped out.
The only tricky part is fitting the swing arm back up.. don't forget the spline goo.. roll it up to where the splines are just ready to enter, pick up the wheel so the spline doesn't turn, and slide it home. You know the feeling.. :laugh:
Remember the washer on the Dis side pin (Right) that's what centers the swing arm. Thanks, Morizzi, RIP  :sad: It's kind of a fiddly job. What I do is barely start the S side pin, somehow manage to put the washer on the D pin  :wink: and feel it into the bearing by gently wiggling the swing arm.
Snug the pins down, put the big lock nuts on, and you're done.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-005_zpsoeklkfwu.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-005_zpsoeklkfwu.jpg.html)
Ya gotta love the interchangeability of Guzzi. I now have a Lario with an Aero engine and a Beaver transmission.  :cheesy:
Like I said, small blocks..no special tools required.. like Earth Girls.. are easy.  :smiley::thumb:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: O on August 13, 2015, 02:01:08 PM

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-005_zpsoeklkfwu.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-005_zpsoeklkfwu.jpg.html)


That is one sweet unicycle you've got there. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on August 13, 2015, 04:58:27 PM
earth girl Guzzi
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 13, 2015, 05:06:28 PM
earth girl Guzzi

Actually, I like that..  :cheesy: Motorcycles don't tell me their name..only Rosie.  That might just stick.  :wink:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on August 13, 2015, 05:12:35 PM
That bike is really a Laerio or Laero. Nice wheelbarrow. Did that recently. Easy as you said
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Guido Valvole on August 13, 2015, 05:38:21 PM
Same primary gearing on the AeroLario and baby Breva? Smallblocks *do* come apart easily, takes a bit longer to get them back together.
cr
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 13, 2015, 05:44:11 PM
Same primary gearing on the AeroLario and baby Breva? Smallblocks *do* come apart easily, takes a bit longer to get them back together.
cr

I wouldn't think so, but I don't know. Right now, it's been running 3600 at 60. We'll see whether I need to change out primary gears.. or not.
Oh, it *always* takes longer to put something back together.. :)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on August 13, 2015, 07:21:15 PM
I wouldn't think so, but I don't know. Right now, it's been running 3600 at 60. We'll see whether I need to change out primary gears.. or not.
Oh, it *always* takes longer to put something back together.. :)
No... in my estimation, the gearing will be much more similar to a V65 NOT the Lario.  The Lario is geared pretty high. I've owned the B750, Lario, and have the V65 primary in my super Lario. With that engine (torquey) and the highway running you do, you might rather have the Lario primary. You'll find out. Maybe more like 4000 RPM at 60.  More fun out of the gate. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Muzz on August 14, 2015, 04:59:11 AM
My Breva says 4000rpm at 60mph.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: leafman60 on August 14, 2015, 07:14:10 AM
So, the 750 Breva (Beaver) transmission has a shorter gearing that allows for more engine revs? Is this true for all gears or just high gear?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 14, 2015, 07:22:49 AM
So, the 750 Breva (Beaver) transmission has a shorter gearing that allows for more engine revs? Is this true for all gears or just high gear?

I'm certainly no expert, but I would think changing the primary gears would affect all gears.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on August 14, 2015, 08:52:25 AM
Yes, all gears since it's the primary. I'm at 4200 RPM @60 with the 16" rims and smaller dia tires on the Lario w/the V65 primary.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 18, 2015, 11:17:20 AM
Well, some things aren't meant to be understood.  :smiley: Spent a really enjoyable day turning wrenches yesterday.Catharsis, if you will.. thinking of absolutely nothing except putting this motorcycle back together, looking for something that's about to break, etc.
Dropped the frame back on, bolted the engine and transmission to it, and rolled it on to the lift. Found that while the Breva transmission is a bolt on, they are not quite the same. The vent is entirely different. Maybe they've figured out how to keep it from puking oil when filled up? Didn't see any signs of it. Linkage to the shifter is different. Clutch adjustment is different, too. Had to make an adjustment tool for that at great expense and intensive labor.  :wink: If you look for trouble on an old machine, you *will* find it, remember? Saw a crack in the insulation of one of the wires at the alternator. Sometime in the future, it would have failed. Replaced all three connectors.
Ok, got it all back together except for fluids.. might as well adjust the valves..it's been 3200 miles. Pulled the left valve cover, and EEKS there's no nut on the top cylinder hold down stud. <sweating bullets> hope the washer and/or nut hasn't made it's way to the pan. Nope. Both are laying in the top of the head. It had broken cleanly, pretty much like the one on the right head. Hmmmm. I've gotta be over torquing them. I was using 22 ft. lbs. Looked up the latest 750 I.E. manual, and it says 14.75. (!) Ok, now. Still have my piece of rolled thread M8 all thread, so I made a new one, torqued the head back down, and adjusted the valves. Went to the other side and changed the torque on it. Apparently, no damage done. Whew!
2 liters Motul 10-60.. kinda makes you want to do laundry.. :smiley: smells a nice.. could only get 900cc of trans fluid in it, even sitting on the side stand. I'm assuming the previous owner drained it while it was cold and left 100cc in it.
Now for the acid test..
Started instantly.. that always brings a smile to me. Gotta love old timey ignition.. :evil: geared up, and went for a ride. Took it easy through the gears, thinking "shifts beautifully, and is *quiet*.  Looked down, and I was doing 3600 at 60.. the same as the Lario transmission. (!!)
Like I said, some things aren't meant to be understood, but there you have it.
I'd rather be lucky than good.. again.. :smiley: :boozing:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rocker59 on August 18, 2015, 11:41:47 AM
And now, for that dyno run....    :evil:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: zedXmick on August 18, 2015, 12:03:21 PM
And now, for that dyno run....    :evil:


 :1: 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 18, 2015, 12:41:51 PM
Ok, ok.. I'll start calling around. :tongue:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 18, 2015, 12:58:55 PM
Maybe we should start a "Send an Aero Engined Lario to Dyno" collection fund?  :wink:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 18, 2015, 03:09:15 PM
Just returned from the Dyno on the South side of Indy. "100 bux for 3 runs with air/fuel ratio.." "Ok, let's do one." "Whoa, what year is that??" "87" "Can't do it, my man.. don't want the liability of it coming apart on the dyno. Too old."
<sigh> At least I got in a couple of hours riding..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on August 18, 2015, 03:22:31 PM
" Can't do it, my man.. don't want the liability of it coming apart on the dyno. Too old. "

Liability can be dealt with by appropriate boilerplate language and a signature.

What I think I'm hearing is " I had a bike come apart under load once and it tore the place up - not doing that again..."

At least that's what the lawyer lobe of my brain is hearing - you wiser fellows may know differently.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on August 18, 2015, 04:41:01 PM
"Whoa, what year is that??" "87" "Can't do it, my man.. don't want the liability of it coming apart on the dyno. Too old."
<sigh>

Well, it's not out of the question. It could. After all, it's an absolutely full noise test. You wouldn't be too happy if it did that either.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 18, 2015, 04:54:34 PM
If I was the least bit concerned that it would come apart, I wouldn't be riding it down there.  :rolleyes:
Blow up a Guzzi by running it at full throttle for a few seconds?? Shirley, you jest. grumble grumble.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: smdl on August 18, 2015, 05:03:16 PM
They're jest saying!  And stop calling me Shirley.  :)

Shaun
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: O on August 18, 2015, 05:17:53 PM
Clearly they haven't seen this thread...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on August 18, 2015, 05:18:18 PM
'87 bike but the engine is new.

 :wink:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Vasco DG on August 18, 2015, 05:22:00 PM
Sounds piss-weak to me Chuck. Find someone who knows what they're doing. One of the problems Mark and I have had with dyno operators is getting them to do what we ask. We reckon that we're the ones paying the piper so we'll call the tune thank you very much but it's hard to get it through some peanut skulls sometimes!

As it is, while interesting, I wouldn't worry too much. You're enjoying it, it's running well, who gives a monkey's what the claimed power and torque are? Most likely, like most dynos , the results won't be accurate anyway as for most people it's more about bragging rights at the bar.

Pete
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 18, 2015, 05:30:33 PM
Sounds piss-weak to me Chuck. Find someone who knows what they're doing. One of the problems Mark and I have had with dyno operators is getting them to do what we ask. We reckon that we're the ones paying the piper so we'll call the tune thank you very much but it's hard to get it through some peanut skulls sometimes!

As it is, while interesting, I wouldn't worry too much. You're enjoying it, it's running well, who gives a monkey's what the claimed power and torque are? Most likely, like most dynos , the results won't be accurate anyway as for most people it's more about bragging rights at the bar.

Pete

I thought the 3 runs with air/fuel readouts would probably be worth the money. That way I'd actually know if I could improve the carburation. I truly don't care about the numbers.. it makes enough power to make me smile.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on August 18, 2015, 06:00:33 PM
Tell them it is a transplant of a brand new airplane engine and you'd like some numbers to corroborate it, they might go along.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on August 18, 2015, 08:20:25 PM
WOW... I would think you'd have to sign a waiver regardless of year anyhow.  A little shocked they sent you away.  Something must have happened there or somewhere to scare them from doing it.  Hmmm...
Even my grenade launcher withstood several dyno's.  After last nights ride with new jets and testing again on a good run tonight, getting things right makes a world of difference.  Feels and runs superb, but am I there yet is the question??  I will only know by taking it too far, then pulling back.  Did you nail yours first try??  That would be shear luck with all you've done in my estimation as mine has been "running good" for several jet sizes now.  It's REALLY opened up as of the past two jets.  Imagine if the aero did the same from where it is.  :drool:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on August 19, 2015, 02:16:37 AM
There are more:
http://www.dynojet.com/DynoCenters/Dynojet-centers.aspx?Address=Indiana%2c+USA
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: johnr on August 19, 2015, 08:27:53 PM
I was of the understanding that  there was a concern that the extra power of the aero engine may be a tad too much for the dive line?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on August 19, 2015, 09:33:15 PM
I was of the understanding that  there was a concern that the extra power of the aero engine may be a tad too much for the dive line?

A good point of reference to this would be to talk to Ed Milich as he seems to run a 54-55 RWHP race bike with a stock V 65 drive line.  He's been at it awhile and he's not babying it.  This would be real-world data, not something thought up by WG engineers.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 20, 2015, 06:27:27 PM
Time for an update. I've been all over the place with the threaded rod cylinder stud, but I have a leak on both cylinders. It's not something terrible.. I've seen *leaks* on aircraft engines..  :smiley: but just annoying. After several hundred miles, there will be a mist that has to be cleaned off. My guess is that oil is traveling down the minor diameter of the all thread. The outer diameter is sealed with an O ring.
So.
Bought some 8mm O1 tool steel from McMaster Carr. Cheap. Like 6 bux or so. Time to make some cylinder studs. I've never cut metric threads before.. I'm a 'Merican, and my old LeBlonde Regal lathe doesn't do sissy metric stuff.  :wink: :boozing: My toy Chinese lathe has Metric change gears, though.. so I'll give it a go. Thought maybe some of you guys might be interested in how to chase threads.
Here's my ancient (naturally) :rolleyes: mechanic's bible..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/01-002_zpsjjtdf0tx.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/01-002_zpsjjtdf0tx.jpg.html)
In it is about anything a machinist needs to know. Turned to the metric threads area..
Tells all about em, and how to cut them. Turn the compound to 60 degrees, and thread depth is .033/.034 inches. All my measuring tools are in inches, so I have to convert metric dimensions. In this diagram, you can also see why I think the oil is finding it's way down the all thread. See the clearance at the minor diameter?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/02-003_zpsthii8t0w.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/02-003_zpsthii8t0w.jpg.html)
So. Let's cut up two pieces the right length..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/03-005_zps0aap7gco.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/03-005_zps0aap7gco.jpg.html)
And set up the lathe. This kind of cryptic placard is on the machine. We are wanting to cut a thread with 1.25 mm lead, after all, it's an M8X1.25..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/07-011_zpstvfrzpua.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/07-011_zpstvfrzpua.jpg.html)
Find 1.25, look up, and you can see gear B needs to be 36 teeth, gear A needs to be 30 teeth, and the lever is to be placed in position 1.
Here's the pile of gears. No quick change mechanism here..  :smiley:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/09-013_zps6bwklmpm.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/09-013_zps6bwklmpm.jpg.html)
Gear B is the small one at the bottom of this picture. A is (ahem) almost shown, but a little above the big gear and meshes with it. This combination will make the lead screw feed 1.25 mm every revolution.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/08-012_zpsuuibvld8.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/08-012_zpsuuibvld8.jpg.html)
Almost ready to cut, but first.. we'll go to the end of the thread and put a radius there. Since the thread depth is .034", we'll make it .036". That way the thread won't just suddenly stop and cause a stress riser.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/04-008_zpsxn2djhlu.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/04-008_zpsxn2djhlu.jpg.html)
Now to set up the threading tool. 2 things. First, it has to be on the centerline of the workpiece, or a smidgen (technical term) below. One way to tell is to put a 6" scale between the tool tip and workpiece. Very light touch. The scale should be vertical or a degree or so past 90.
 
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/05-009_zpszqzhvtue.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/05-009_zpszqzhvtue.jpg.html)
This is a thread gauge. That sets the cutting edge 90 degrees to the work. Almost done, now. Remember that the thread depth was supposed to be .034"? Since the compound is set on 60 degrees, doing the Trig says that the compound needs to feed in .039". Make sense?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/06-010_zpsebdt02kl.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/06-010_zpsebdt02kl.jpg.html)
Ok, here we go..
First pass..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/10-014_zpsiowmy5b9.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/10-014_zpsiowmy5b9.jpg.html)
Looks good. Now.. threading goes really fast. There is absolutely no time to take a picture while the machine is running. This is *not* a real lathe, btw.. just a toy.. so light cuts have to be made. I made passes at .005" cutting depth, using cutting oil. A real lathe would cut this stuff like butter.
Took it down to .039", ran a mill file over the top.. and
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/11-016_zpswnwnngwd.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/11-016_zpswnwnngwd.jpg.html)
I'll be darned. A nut even fits on it and feels good.  :smiley: My first metric thread cutting. Even a blind hawg finds an acorn now and then.  :wink:
If anyone has followed this.. that's how threads are made. Now, all I have to do is get the Kid's Spot out of the shop and change out the studs. Maybe that pesky leak will stop.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: normzone on November 20, 2015, 09:51:28 PM
Damn...I've not cut any metal worth bragging about, but I cut my inspection teeth on the type of parts and operations you're describing. My hat is off to you, sir.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: LowRyter on November 20, 2015, 11:55:48 PM
keep it up.  The only running tools I've ever used are drills, saws and threading pipes.

I find this fascinating. 

Thanks for sharing. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on November 21, 2015, 06:16:36 AM
Quote
Gear B is the small one at the bottom of this picture.

 :gotpics:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on November 21, 2015, 06:40:15 AM
 :thumb: Awesome!

I was talking to some VW mechanics yesterday (timing belt change and more on my car) and they were fascinated by the story of your Great Lakes project and Aero conversion.

You're a star Chuck.

 :grin:

-Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2015, 06:58:23 AM
:thumb: Awesome!

I was talking to some VW mechanics yesterday (timing belt change and more on my car) and they were fascinated by the story of your Great Lakes project and Aero conversion.

You're a star Chuck.

 :grin:

-Joe

Hi, Joe!  :smiley: Star? No.. any competent machinist can do this stuff. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it)  it's a dying trade.. everything is becoming computer controlled. The "machinist" will eventually be the guy that loads stock and unloads parts from the machining center.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tiger_one on November 21, 2015, 07:11:44 AM
I haven't turned threads for years, also my old Monarch doesn't know metric.  Nice work.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Aaron D. on November 21, 2015, 07:37:53 AM
Turning threads was something I was taught in the mid '70s, I thought it was sooo cool. Still do.

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: rboe on November 21, 2015, 09:02:49 AM
Now I can't find my copy of Machinery's Handbook.  :sad:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: dibble on November 21, 2015, 09:46:57 AM
Hi, Joe!  :smiley: Star? No.. any competent machinist can do this stuff. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it)  it's a dying trade.. everything is becoming computer controlled. The "machinist" will eventually be the guy that loads stock and unloads parts from the machining center.

I really do worry about this.

I spent two hours trying to true the chuck and bed of my Colchester Bantam by the manual and got nowhere.
A work contact who did a traditional machinists apprenticeship showed me how to do it and a shortcut and  20 minutes later it was near enough for me.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2015, 11:10:32 AM
I really do worry about this.

I spent two hours trying to true the chuck and bed of my Colchester Bantam by the manual and got nowhere.
A work contact who did a traditional machinists apprenticeship showed me how to do it and a shortcut and  20 minutes later it was near enough for me.

Well, there *are* some "tricks of the trade."  :smiley: Unfortunately, skilled tradesmen are in short supply any more. Chrysler has been courting a friend of mine to come work for them as a tool and die maker, and he's 65. (!!!) Much of this kind of work went out of the country 20 years ago, and the guys that would have been teaching the apprentices are retired.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on November 21, 2015, 12:15:02 PM
Chuck that is great!  In 5 min. reading your post I learned several great tricks.  I inherited an old (1944!) Craftsman 3" lathe from my grandfather (really a toy!) that I've used to make a few things but never cut threads.  You make it seem doable.  Thanks!   :thumb:

Hope it's ok if I ask a couple questions?  How do you pick the steel for bolts?  You specify O8 tool steel.  Looking up tool steel gives a myriad of info yet it seems like we would only need 4 types: mild steel, tough tool steel for bolts and wear parts, hard steel for cutting and spring steel for springs?  Is your machinist's bible the reference?

I also need to figure out how to sharpen the tool bits better and centering the work in the headstock easier...
Thanks again!
Shawn
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Zinfan on November 21, 2015, 12:53:27 PM
I'm fascinated by lathes and mills so loved the thread cutting pics.  I like to think if I had room I'd get a baby lathe to work with but alas the garage is too small.  I like to watch Keith Fenner's videos on youtube as he does lots of Machinist work that involves the lathes.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2015, 01:09:34 PM
:gotpics:

You're right, Terry.. I didn't do a very good job of documenting how a manual lathe works. The three aluminum pulleys to the left control spindle speed. The plastic gear that is driven off the spindle is sacrificial on this lathe, and drives the feed and threading mechanism. The placard on the front tells which combination of gears causes the leadscrew to turn, and how much it turns per revolution of the spindle. The leadscrew drives the carriage via two half nuts that are clamped to it with a lever.
 (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/1-001_zpsgevi7rkw.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/1-001_zpsgevi7rkw.jpg.html)
This is the "lever a" on the placard. You can see it is put in position 1.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/2-004_zpsfcqvlorq.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/2-004_zpsfcqvlorq.jpg.html)
The leadscrew drives the "carriage". Mounted to the carriage is the cross slide, which moves in and out, with the compound on top. It is rotatable, so tapers can be turned, and can be used for anything needing an angle. It is set on 60 degrees to cut this thread. You can see the leadscrew.. a long threaded rod.. that the half nuts clamp to to move the carriage. The lever to the right is for threading, the other lever near the file handle is for the power feed for turning.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/3-005_zpslleesmfa.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/3-005_zpslleesmfa.jpg.html)
That's about it. No matter who makes them, all lathes work approximately the same way, and if you can run one, you can run em all..  :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 21, 2015, 01:24:16 PM
Chuck that is great!  In 5 min. reading your post I learned several great tricks.  I inherited an old (1944!) Craftsman 3" lathe from my grandfather (really a toy!) that I've used to make a few things but never cut threads.  You make it seem doable.  Thanks!   :thumb:

Hope it's ok if I ask a couple questions?  How do you pick the steel for bolts?  You specify O8 tool steel.  Looking up tool steel gives a myriad of info yet it seems like we would only need 4 types: mild steel, tough tool steel for bolts and wear parts, hard steel for cutting and spring steel for springs?  Is your machinist's bible the reference?

I also need to figure out how to sharpen the tool bits better and centering the work in the headstock easier...
Thanks again!
Shawn

Sure thing, Shawn.. although I'd be surprised if that small a lathe has change gears for thread chasing. In picking the steel for these studs, *if it was easily available and cheap* (Guzzi content)  :smiley: I'd probably have gone with a chrome moly high carbon steel. It's not..oh, I could have found some, but I don't think it's necessary. I chose 01, that's a standard oil hardening tool steel that is pretty tough in the normalized condition. If necessary (I don't think it will be) I can easily harden and temper it with an ox acetylene torch and a pan of kerosene.  :smiley:

Oh.. everything imaginable is in the Machinerys handbook..  :smiley:  including steel types and uses.
Showing someone how to shape a cutting tool is beyond a thread like this.. but.. the trick is to make sure it (the cutting edge) has positive clearance without having too much. Without enough, it will rub and not cut at all or leave a nasty finish. Too much, and the cutting edge will get hot and dull in short order.
There's a little learning curve.. :wink:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: SED on November 21, 2015, 01:56:55 PM
Sure thing, Shawn.. although I'd be surprised if that small a lathe has change gears for thread chasing.
...
There's a little learning curve.. :wink:

Thanks Chuck!  It's encouraging to see you do it so nicely.

The little lathe does have a power lead screw and all the cogs to set feed rates.  There's some wear in the split collar that catches the lead screw and more in the head stock bushings which may be the biggest hurdle other than that learning curve!   :tongue:
Thanks again.
Shawn
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on November 21, 2015, 02:06:55 PM
You can turn a piece of round stock into a square block on a lathe. I've stumped some instructors with that, I had to have it explained to me, by my grandfather who was born in 1901
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 22, 2015, 06:25:01 AM
Thanks Chuck!  It's encouraging to see you do it so nicely.

The little lathe does have a power lead screw and all the cogs to set feed rates.  There's some wear in the split collar that catches the lead screw and more in the head stock bushings which may be the biggest hurdle other than that learning curve!   :tongue:
Thanks again.
Shawn

Well.. you have a lathe. It's the only machine tool that is capable of duplicating itself.  :wink: You can make new head stock bushings..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on November 22, 2015, 11:10:24 AM
You can turn a piece of round stock into a square block on a lathe. I've stumped some instructors with that, I had to have it explained to me, by my grandfather who was born in 1901

Sounds like a 4-jaw chuck and a lot of facing.  I do use my vertical mill for turning occasionally, when the part is too big for my 12" lathe.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on November 22, 2015, 11:17:45 AM
Yeah Jim that's it you hack off a piece of round stock, face off both ends, chuck it in a 4 jaw, face off a side, turn it 180 ,face off another and so on. The whole point is that with machine tools use your imagination and you can build most things you can imagine.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Doug McLaren on November 22, 2015, 11:50:31 AM
Chuck, you may, tongue in cheek, refer to your Chinese lathe as a toy and indeed it may well be when compared to tool-room machinery in a production environment. But speaking as a non-machinist my Chinese lathe has been worth every penny that I paid for it. It's ideal for knocking up odd studs, bushes, spacers and collars, for drilling, boring and threading and many other tasks.

Like I said, I'm no machinist and it'll take me a lot longer to do things than a pro but I reckon it's been a great addition to my garage.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 22, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
Chuck, you may, tongue in cheek, refer to your Chinese lathe as a toy and indeed it may well be when compared to tool-room machinery in a production environment. But speaking as a non-machinist my Chinese lathe has been worth every penny that I paid for it. It's ideal for knocking up odd studs, bushes, spacers and collars, for drilling, boring and threading and many other tasks.

Like I said, I'm no machinist and it'll take me a lot longer to do things than a pro but I reckon it's been a great addition to my garage.

Oh, I *use* my little lathe, but it isn't in the same league as a *real* lathe. It's just not sturdy enough. That said, it's a handy little booger, and obviously I couldn't cut those threads on my LaBlond. I *could* put a die in a special home made holder in the LaBlond's tailstock and get the job done, but I wanted to see if my toy lathe (and I) could do it. It can.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on November 22, 2015, 05:20:56 PM
I'm kind of surprised the LeBlond didn't have metric capability.

Our shop has been working on rebuilding or retrofitting big lathes for years. One in our shop right now is a deep hole drill capable of drilling a 12 3/8 diameter hole 65 FEET deep. This machine has a 6 foot swing and is over 200 feet long. Among other things this forge makes is locomotive and ship crankshafts and the Mother Of Of All Bombs.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 22, 2015, 05:55:39 PM
I'm kind of surprised the LeBlond didn't have metric capability.

Our shop has been working on rebuilding or retrofitting big lathes for years. One in our shop right now is a deep hole drill capable of drilling a 12 3/8 diameter hole 65 FEET deep. This machine has a 6 foot swing and is over 200 feet long. Among other things this forge makes is locomotive and ship crankshafts and the Mother Of Of All Bombs.

It's uh.... pre war, Terry.  :smiley: Yeah.. *that* one.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on November 23, 2015, 04:22:46 AM
I'm kind of surprised the LeBlond didn't have metric capability.

Our shop has been working on rebuilding or retrofitting big lathes for years. One in our shop right now is a deep hole drill capable of drilling a 12 3/8 diameter hole 65 FEET deep. This machine has a 6 foot swing and is over 200 feet long. Among other things this forge makes is locomotive and ship crankshafts and the Mother Of Of All Bombs.

Picture?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tris on November 23, 2015, 06:10:30 AM
I'm kind of surprised the LeBlond didn't have metric capability.
.......

ENGAGING OLD MEMMORY CELLS ..... CLUNK

Don't you need a 127 tooth change wheel to screw cut metric on an imperial lathe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 23, 2015, 06:31:21 AM
ENGAGING OLD MEMMORY CELLS ..... CLUNK

Don't you need a 127 tooth change wheel to screw cut metric on an imperial lathe

Yep.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: tris on November 23, 2015, 01:01:43 PM
Yep.

Wahoo   my long term memory is OK.

That's good news even if "according to my wife" I can't remember anything

Strange how its always stuff like the 3rd iteration of the 4th colour we might be painting the bathroom in 18 months time I forget  :thumb:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 23, 2015, 01:34:30 PM
Wahoo   my long term memory is OK.

That's good news even if "according to my wife" I can't remember anything

Strange how its always stuff like the 3rd iteration of the 4th colour we might be painting the bathroom in 18 months time I forget  :thumb:

You need not put things like that in long term memory.. it just clogs up the mechanism. <looking over shoulder> :thewife:
 :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on November 23, 2015, 04:31:37 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/twhitaker/cid__5ad88477-d2e3-a13b-2ffe-ab5d2de01decyahoo_zpsa7mwaynw.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/twhitaker/media/cid__5ad88477-d2e3-a13b-2ffe-ab5d2de01decyahoo_zpsa7mwaynw.jpg.html)

Up near the headstock is the saddle that supports the drill bushing. The part is supported on steadyrests and by the bushing. The machine uses up to 200 gallons coolant per minute.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 23, 2015, 05:07:41 PM
Dainty little thang..  :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on November 24, 2015, 04:47:45 AM
I did my apprenticeship in a railway workshop, we had a bunch of old machinery taken from Germany at the end of WWII I was always looking at machinery trying to figure out how it worked.
We had a large vertical lathe that could swing about 10 feet.
Chuck, explain how you always start the threads in the right spot for 2nd and 3rd cut etc.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 24, 2015, 05:48:13 AM
I did my apprenticeship in a railway workshop, we had a bunch of old machinery taken from Germany at the end of WWII I was always looking at machinery trying to figure out how it worked.
We had a large vertical lathe that could swing about 10 feet.
Chuck, explain how you always start the threads in the right spot for 2nd and 3rd cut etc.
Ok, see the teardrop shaped gizmo (technical term) at the top of the paint brush? It can be pivoted down to lock onto the lead screw. Then the indicator wheel with the numbers you can barely see rotates. If you are cutting 'Merican threads any number that is divisible into the number of threads can be used. For instance if it is 12 threads per inch, you can lock in the half nut when it rotates to 1, 3, 4, or 6.
The instructions in the toy lathe manual say when cutting metric threads to leave it locked in, and reverse the head rotation.. so it's tedious. Feed in the compound, turn on the headstock, watch it like a hawk  :smiley: and turn it off before reaching the end of the cut and let it coast. Back off the compound past zero and reverse the motor.  Feed in for your second pass, etc. Real lathes have a positive stop that can be set on the cross slide so you don't have to do all that. You can just back off the cross slide, feed in the compound, run the cross slide back to the positive stop, etc. You'll be done in a minute or so. It takes several minutes with this little booger.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/3-005_zpslleesmfa.jpg)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on November 24, 2015, 07:51:58 AM
And cue " machine hypnosis"   :sad:
That only happens after the part is nearly complete , after hours of work!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 10, 2015, 04:13:50 PM
Ok, back to the Aero engine. 
Since it's "experimental" the Guzzi Garage (tm) is now the "Experimental Department."  :smiley:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsegr0tu9j.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/1-002_zpsegr0tu9j.jpg.html)
Back when a top cylinder stud stripped, on the advice of Dick.. who's advice I take seriously  :smiley: I made new studs out of M8 all thread. Seemed like a good idea at the time, rolled threads instead of cut, but the unintended consequence was an oil leak. I assumed oil was migrating down the minor diameter of the threads.
Yep. Taking the tank off revealed wet threads. It's not like this was some major leak or anything, after a few hundred miles there would be a mist on things. Annoying.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsykm9trat.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/2-003_zpsykm9trat.jpg.html)

Time to fix it. Made new studs with the toy lathe. That's documented earlier in the thread.
I've mentioned before that having the right tool is many times 2/3 of the job. This is no different. The Kid brought down his stud remover/installer set.. how do it know?  :wink: .. to work on his carb Spot, so I borrowed it.
It's for M6, 8, 10, & 12.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/8-010_zpsaybf5yvf.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/8-010_zpsaybf5yvf.jpg.html)
Oh, this is *way* too easy.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/3-004_zps1ocyhxjd.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/3-004_zps1ocyhxjd.jpg.html)
They don't sell any of those sissy metric O rings in Elwood, Indiana.. we're 'Mericans here. McMaster Carr has them. Got 100 M8s and 100 M10s for about the price of special ordering enough to do the job. Anyone need O rings?  :smiley:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/5-007_zps9iizmjva.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/5-007_zps9iizmjva.jpg.html)
So. Installed the studs.. this is *much* better than taking a chance of deforming the threads by double nutting, etc. The tool will grip the stud below the threads. I need a set, obviously.  :smiley: I love tools..
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/6-008_zps4nd2s7sv.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/6-008_zps4nd2s7sv.jpg.html)
Torqued the studs using the tool to 15 ft. lbs. just like in the book.
Put on the new O rings
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/7-009_zpsnwvibiyp.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/aero%20engine/7-009_zpsnwvibiyp.jpg.html)
Reinstalled the rocker pedestals, torqued, adjusted valves, you know the drill.
This should cure that pesky oil leak.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on December 10, 2015, 04:46:16 PM
Will it make rated power now, Chuckie ?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 10, 2015, 04:48:06 PM
So. Installed the studs.. this is *much* better than taking a chance of deforming the threads by double nutting, etc. The tool will grip the stud below the threads. I need a set, obviously.  :smiley: I love tools..

I need a set too. Brand name of the ones you used?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on December 10, 2015, 05:01:09 PM
They don't sell any of those sissy metric O rings in Elwood, Indiana.. we're 'Mericans here. McMaster Carr has them. Got 100 M8s and 100 M10s for about the price of special ordering enough to do the job. Anyone need O rings?  :smiley:

I have quite a few bags of O-rings with 90-99 left in them, but I don't mind.  Like you said, the cost is usually less than buying a few from a parts dealer, and eventually I'll have all sizes in stock and my kids can inherit them.   :grin:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 10, 2015, 06:19:28 PM
Will it make rated power now, Chuckie ?

Nope. It has a mild (er) V65 cam.  :smiley: It makes "adequate power" though.. Trust me.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 10, 2015, 06:36:39 PM
I need a set too. Brand name of the ones you used?

Ya know, Charlie.. I brought the Kid up right.  :smiley: I told him to always buy the best tools he could afford. When he was down working on the Spot, he looked at a puller I had. It was Buffalo. He gave me the *look*, and I told him at that time that was the best I could afford.  :smiley:
These are Cornwell. Not Snap On or Matco.. but look perfectly adequate for not every day use to me.  :wink:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 10, 2015, 07:16:32 PM
Ya know, Charlie.. I brought the Kid up right.  :smiley: I told him to always buy the best tools he could afford. When he was down working on the Spot, he looked at a puller I had. It was Buffalo. He gave me the *look*, and I told him at that time that was the best I could afford.  :smiley:
These are Cornwell. Not Snap On or Matco.. but look perfectly adequate for not every day use to me.  :wink:

Thanks. I found some that are the best I can afford.  :wink:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: ruote on December 10, 2015, 11:31:23 PM
Never been sorry :sad: for buying a tool, except when I should have gotten a better one :smiley:. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on May 10, 2016, 05:23:23 PM
Time for an aero engine update. I was talking on the phone with Dusty today and told him I'd fixed the Aero Lario until it broke.  :smiley: I'd just put my new used front brake discs on, opened the hanger door, started it up with lots of choke.. the long intake runners require a fair amount of choke until they warm up. Fuel drops out of suspension, and.. oh well..trust me, it requires choke to idle until the runners warm up. I was keeping it running with the choke and it just quit. Dead. Nothing. Wouldn't fire a lick.
I thought, "What's the chance of carburetors stopping carbureting?" None.
What's the chance of both plugs failing at once?
Slim.
What's the chance of the Siemens relay I put on the ignition (removed from the Centauro years ago) failing?
Pretty darn good.  :smiley:
I thought at the time that I was adding a failure mode to the bike that wasn't there, but wanted to take every electrical load off my kool Tron switches possible. Just in case, I wrapped another relay in foam and threw it in the tool kit. I figured that would cover it.  :smiley: 
So. I just knew it was a relay failure. Imagine my surprise when I checked for power at the coils..
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7628/26843757982_8d6ec43020_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GU6h2u)2016-05-10_02-51-28 (https://flic.kr/p/GU6h2u) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
Thought, WTF? and pulled the plugs. Checked them on my antique (naturally) tester, and they were dead.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7788/26870032401_50ed5dd27c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GWpWuH)2016-05-10_02-46-46 (https://flic.kr/p/GWpWuH) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
They were fuel fouled, so took them to the solvent tank, cleaned them up, blasted them dry with air, checked them on the tester, and they tested ok. Not great..blew out at about 90 psi. but ok.
Naturally, it started right up, and I rode it up to the Guzzi Garage, but thought.."Maybe a little high speed blast will clean them off better.." Ran down to the next crossroad, in full squid gear; Tennis shoes, jeans, T shirt, and no helmet. In front of me was a mile of pretty fresh pavement, no crops on either side for deer to run out of, places for cops to hide  :evil: etc. Laid on the tank, pinned the throttle and to quote HST "with my balls on fire.."
It was like being a kid again, and it was good for me.  :grin:  :grin:
The next order of business: Since this is the only engine like this running, maybe I should take a look at the heat range of what Guzzi is using in the V9 engine. Maybe 1 heat range warmer would be good. It's presently running
Quote
. New plugs NGK BR9EIX iridium.
That was 6K miles ago. Maybe BR8s are in order? After all, we're experimenting here.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on May 10, 2016, 07:54:06 PM
Can you keep it running with enricheners off ? Even with really long inlet runner on sons XR120 (with Dell Orto) we only used it to start, flicked off, warmed up before riding by using throttle.
Might just be a jetting thing ?
Other than that, I'd try non iridium before buying exy plugs (Guzzi content) in different ranges.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Muzz on May 10, 2016, 09:17:19 PM
I have reread your post Chuck and I don't see just what range you are running.

By inference, is it a 7? I would have thought that would have been a bit cold.

As a matter of interest, are they the plugs that were used when it was still being used in a done?

edit. Assuming 7=cold, 9=hot.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: ITSec on May 10, 2016, 09:27:49 PM
BR8s are everywhere in the 1200s, both the single and dual plug bikes use them...
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on May 11, 2016, 06:13:40 AM
Can you keep it running with enricheners off ? Even with really long inlet runner on sons XR120 (with Dell Orto) we only used it to start, flicked off, warmed up before riding by using throttle.
Might just be a jetting thing ?
Other than that, I'd try non iridium before buying exy plugs (Guzzi content) in different ranges.

Yeah, you can, but you can't let it drop much below 3000 rpm. I just hate doing that to a cold engine. The plugs I'm running are what I found as a direct replacement for the OEM unavailable in the US plug. As an aero engine, though, I would expect that plug to maybe be a little too cold? Until now, I haven't had any real problem except it seems to be getting harder to cold start. Maybe it's just telling me to put new plugs in it?
Jetting? It acts to me that it could be a little richer on the idle jet. The needles are 3 turns out.
Naturally, it needs new plugs. In my experience, once a plug is fouled for whatever reason it's never the same.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: pauldaytona on May 11, 2016, 06:20:45 AM
I had similar experiences with the small iridium plugs in the daytona. When they are drowned in fuel they stop quick.  Then put more siimple ones in bike starts. After that the iridium worked again.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on May 11, 2016, 11:00:59 AM
Ok, the V9 aero engine  :smiley: uses a CPR8EB-9. That's one of those sissy 10mm plugs. I'll get me some manly 14mm BR8ES or EGs.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: kevdog3019 on May 11, 2016, 11:47:52 AM
You can gap the plug more to help with rich situations.  It won't foul as easily.  This from EM.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on May 12, 2016, 02:13:43 PM
Ok, we're experimenting here, but I think we can safely say that these plugs are too cold unless you are running at near WOT as the Aero engine was designed.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7758/26370547923_1e2a331240_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GbgXan)2016-05-12_02-50-03 (https://flic.kr/p/GbgXan) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
Installed one heat range warmer, and we'll experiment with them a while. Looking back through my maintenance logs, the 07 Norge was 3 heat ranges warmer, so this should be no problem at all. I just used the heat range that came in it at first to be safe.

I know this is pretty basic, but I have seen friend's bikes come in to the  Guzzi Garage with loose plugs. If you are putting in new plugs with crush washers, bring the plug up to the crush washer and turn the wrench 3/4 of a turn more. That'll be just right. If you tighten it until it feels right, the crush washer will continue to crush with cylinder pressure and end up too loose after running a while.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 07, 2016, 04:19:20 PM
Time for an update..
First major service completed today. Compression is 80/79. (!!) Torqued the heads for the last time. The new cylinder hold down studs I made are ok.
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8721/30142593276_01322c875d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MVAEQ5)2016-10-07_04-22-47 (https://flic.kr/p/MVAEQ5) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
Changed fluids, new plugs, etc.
Hmmmm, I wonder if the valve cover gaskets for the V9 would fit? I'm being *really* careful not to tear the unobtainium ones.
I would say this experiment has been a total success.  :smiley: :smiley: :thumb: I'd ride it anywhere.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Steph on October 07, 2016, 04:24:05 PM
80/79 psi? 
That seems a bit low...no?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 07, 2016, 04:52:33 PM
80/79 psi? 
That seems a bit low...no?

A leakdown tester. Put 80 in, the second gauge reads leakage. 10% leakage is considered pretty good.  That would be 80/72. I *have* seen a cylinder that was 80/80.. but  that was once in a lifetime of doing leakdown tests.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on October 08, 2016, 01:03:38 AM
Hi Chuck
The aero mill was my dream some years back. I'm glad you were the one to live it. I'd had no chance of getting that mill here in Dk. Thanks for sharing your thrills and lessons learned on this project.

Ciao
Brian
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: sign216 on October 08, 2016, 09:30:40 AM
Hi Chuck
The aero mill was my dream some years back. I'm glad you were the one to live it. I'd had no chance of getting that mill here in Dk. Thanks for sharing your thrills and lessons learned on this project.

Ciao
Brian

Hi Ice,
Haven't seen you in a while.  And yes, the drone engine is the Holy Grail of the Guzzi smallblock.
I con't believe someone actually got one.
Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 08, 2016, 04:02:02 PM
Hiya Brian.. don't be a stranger.. :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on October 08, 2016, 04:11:25 PM
Ok, we're experimenting here, but I think we can safely say that these plugs are too cold unless you are running at near WOT as the Aero engine was designed.

What plugs are those?  They look almost as cold as a set of Champion L55Gs I tried briefly in my '72 H2.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 09, 2016, 07:27:22 AM
What plugs are those?  They look almost as cold as a set of Champion L55Gs I tried briefly in my '72 H2.

Those are BR9ES. They cross reference to the OEM plug which is a weird euro plug..Bosch W3CS . I went with a BR8ES, but at the KY rally, it was getting cranky with about 5K miles on them. I put them in my aircraft plug checker, and sure enough they were bad. Looked good, though, so I put a new set of BR8s back in. I'm (sorta) scared to go to a hotter yet plug..
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on October 09, 2016, 08:38:35 AM
I remember talking to a tech rep when we were raceing who said that with modern pump gas additives when the insulator gets soaked, the plug is junk for high performance applications because it will cause weak spark and possibly a misfire. Cleaning the plug is of little use as you cannot get the insulater to release whatever chemical has penetrated it and it won't burn off like it did with the old generation of fuels. That's what I remember from late last century.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: flangeman_70 on October 09, 2016, 09:27:22 AM
Some inspiration for you others that might want to try this
http://www.centauro.de/NTX/V82/V82-START.html (http://www.centauro.de/NTX/V82/V82-START.html)
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 10, 2016, 06:00:51 AM
I remember talking to a tech rep when we were raceing who said that with modern pump gas additives when the insulator gets soaked, the plug is junk for high performance applications because it will cause weak spark and possibly a misfire. Cleaning the plug is of little use as you cannot get the insulater to release whatever chemical has penetrated it and it won't burn off like it did with the old generation of fuels. That's what I remember from late last century.

That has been my experience. Normally, I start the Lario with choke, and ride off keeping it running with throttle as best I can until the intake runners warm up. Takes about a half mile. If I leave the choke on too long, it'll fuel foul the plugs. That happened at the KY rally when I was waiting for Dorcia to do whatever wimmens do  :smiley: :thewife: when we were going for a ride. It ran poorly the rest of the weekend, and wouldn't burn off no matter how hard I ran it.  :evil: The plug tester showed all. Weak spark at low pressure, and none at over 90 psi.
FWIW, I was talking to Jim Barron at Rose Farm this summer, and he says if a plug comes out, he puts a new one in.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on October 10, 2016, 07:51:31 AM
That is good advise from Jim at Rosefarm, I think I'll replace plugs at a shorter interval. I was thinking that maybe you could put little 12 volt heaters on the intake runners. What do you think?
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 10, 2016, 10:37:22 AM
That is good advise from Jim at Rosefarm, I think I'll replace plugs at a shorter interval. I was thinking that maybe you could put little 12 volt heaters on the intake runners. What do you think?

I'm thinking you're overthinking it.  :smiley: :boozing:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: twhitaker on October 10, 2016, 11:01:41 AM
I'm thinking you're overthinking it.  :smiley: :boozing:

Then, by definition, you're underthinking it.  :boozing:  :grin:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: John A on October 10, 2016, 11:07:48 AM
you just don't wanna do it, Chuck :grin:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: IceBlue on October 20, 2016, 05:18:17 AM
Hiya Brian.. don't be a stranger.. :smiley:

Hello Chuck
Trying not to. Quite busy these days.
Still a Guzzi lover  :bow:

Looking forward to retirement giving me more time, but still 4-5 years to go  :coffee:

Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 08, 2017, 10:17:31 AM
It's been a while.. time for an update. I've been extremely happy with the Aero engine, and have put several thousand miles on it.
However..  :smiley:
It is cold natured at startup. I'm guessing that it is from the longer than normal intake manifold runners. I'm using the "all or nothing" stock Lario flip choke, and that is either too much or not enough. Sooo.. I found a Magura choke lever on Amazon. It was set up to put on a handlebar, but there's no room on the Lario for that. I have a lathe and mill and know how to use it.. :smiley: and made a mount for the lever using the mirror location.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4232/35665209901_7917193d45_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WkBwm6)2017-07-08_10-38-32 (https://flic.kr/p/WkBwm6) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
A trip to the bicycle store got a cable and housing. Did a little figuring, made an end out of steel .120" in diameter, .125 long, with an .063" hole through it countersinked on each end. Sorry, I forgot to take a picture.
My friend Andy gave me an old loop frame splitter. I cut it apart to just use one side of it. Left the bolt hole, but couldn't find any place to mount it that didn't cause the cables to be unnaturally bent, so zip tied it to the frame rail.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4241/35756314516_718393a595_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WtEszj)2017-07-08_10-30-53 (https://flic.kr/p/WtEszj) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then..  :smiley: measuring twice and cutting once worked this time.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Unkept on July 08, 2017, 12:46:23 PM
 :thumb: The Aero engine story has become one of my fondest memories.

-Joe
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 18, 2017, 02:41:56 PM
Back to the experimental department..  :smiley:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4272/35384743116_c5435fa368_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VUQ4kS)2017-06-20_07-48-17 (https://flic.kr/p/VUQ4kS) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
We currently have a thread on your favorite motorcycle going on.. I have my three "wind up" bikes.. you know the bikes you wind up with? When I had the Mighty Scura out in California, it was my favorite, but back here in Indiana, that Ohlins suspension is wasted. The little Monza is a hoot.
But.. I find when I just want to go for a put the AeroLario generally gets the nod. I was out roaring around today, and coming back through the metropolis of Elwood, Indiana.. :wink: it started to idle poorly. I thought, "crap.. it's trying to foul a plug." Sure enough..
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4315/35876577571_21d929bffc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WEhQAg)2017-07-18_03-21-21 (https://flic.kr/p/WEhQAg) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
Those of you that have followed this thread know that the Aero engine had a very cold plug when used as an airplane engine. It roughly translated to a BR9ES, so I tried that one first. Fouled it. I've been running a BR8ES since, but this is the second one it's fouled. You don't need to tell me 3 times, so I just put in a pair of BR7ES, and will experiment with them for a while.
Synced the carbs and set the idle.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4313/36053056405_7e521f915c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WVTkAM)2017-07-18_03-21-46 (https://flic.kr/p/WVTkAM) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
I love this thing..  :smiley:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 18, 2017, 03:22:06 PM
Had a look at the new plugs after several hundred miles going to the Wisconsin rally. They look much cleaner, and cold starts are a piece of cake.
Gave her a bath..
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4379/36486469772_6072571df1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XAbGi3)2017-08-18_04-08-49 (https://flic.kr/p/XAbGi3) by Charles Stottlemyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/107188298@N06/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Diploman on August 19, 2017, 08:55:51 AM
Chuck, What's the coating on your exhaust headers?  They look great. 
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 20, 2017, 06:05:01 AM
Rustoleum high temp bbq paint.  :smiley: It actually works better than I expected.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Skeeve on October 17, 2017, 12:41:23 AM
What we need is someone with an inside to the Guzzi factory to talk them into making up some heads. They Shirley  ;) haven't thrown away the tooling..

OK, sorry for the necro-post here, but I don't have time to read thru 37 pages over the last 4 years to find out if someone has already corrected you, but iirc, you were already 3 years late with the "Surely they haven't..." when you posted this back in 2013!

Guzzi doesn't have anything: it's all Piaggio, and they sold off tons of parts and scrapped everything possible back in 2010 [again, iirc: I'm old & have bad case of CRS] when they shelved the 2v big blocks and decided "Only new engines going forward." Maybe it was a little later than that: any of the Guzzi dealership lurkers like Dave Richardson, Greg Field, Todd Eagen, etc. would remember when Piaggio had the big "buy it now or hold your pieces" sale. You know all those unobtanium factory parts like the Ti exhaust that are/were only available from the big Guzzi specialist in Germany? That's 'cause they mortgaged everything, including the cat in order to buy up all the parts they could when Piaggio was blowing them out for scrap!

Your ersatz Ippogrifo is the only one there is ever likely to be, unless there are some more U.S. or Israeli mil-surp engines floating around for a drone platform that was retired in the '00s.. Congrats on the truly one-off ride!
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Skeeve on October 17, 2017, 01:21:08 AM
Never seen so many cool pic's of a hunter/Ippo mill before, thanks Chuck! ;-T

And no one ever will again. Thanks Photobucket! NOT  :angry:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 24, 2017, 08:17:35 AM
And no one ever will again. Thanks Photobucket! NOT  :angry:

I'll get around to updating the pix during the Winter.. Photoblockit can kiss my patootie.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on October 24, 2017, 08:24:14 AM
I'll get around to updating the pix during the Winter.. Photoblockit can kiss my patootie.

I can still see them all, with "Photobucket Imbedded Image Fix" add-on installed on Firefox.
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 29, 2017, 07:25:48 PM
I can still see them all, with "Photobucket Imbedded Image Fix" add-on installed on Firefox.

Woo Hoo! Thanks for that. I'll put a note on page 1..  :thumb: You would have thought they'd have closed that loophole.  :cool:
Title: Re: Aero engine rescue
Post by: Triple Jim on October 29, 2017, 07:33:12 PM
Woo Hoo! Thanks for that. I'll put a note on page 1..  :thumb: You would have thought they'd have closed that loophole.  :cool:

They still may, who knows?