Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: Antiquar on January 26, 2017, 12:30:12 PM

Title: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on January 26, 2017, 12:30:12 PM
Yesterday I bought a 1979 G5. Indicated ~50,000 miles, but who knows what the real number is.

The old girl is in quite a state, cosmetically.
(http://i.imgur.com/LAP8IVf.jpg)

But most of the important bits and bobs are there. She rolls smooth, with no undue noises. I am able to shift the gearbox through all the gears by hand. Clutch actuation still works. The PO indicates that the engine is not seized and that they were able to start the engine in September. I did not ask them to reproduce this feat for fear of causing unnecessary damage in the attempt.

The right side crash bar bolt is bent, indicating she went down at some point. Thankfully the frame still runs straight. I didn't want those police bars anyway.  :laugh:

The wiring is a total mess and I will likely have to replace or create a new harness.

I plan to start stripping her down on Saturday. I intend to make her a city and light touring duty bike. Livery still under consideration. I'm going through all the wonderful build and restoration threads here for inspiration. Along with spending a bit of quality time with Guzziology.

(http://i.imgur.com/zlGSmXf.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/jehsF9d.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/qO8sStX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/hJ5CfmQ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Y0KMKYo.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2HzcQsO.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/eiCglYd.jpg)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: rodekyll on January 26, 2017, 12:51:30 PM
I might have a less tatty speedo housing and the tach surround for the itty bitty tach that's fed by the cable coming through the steering head.  Also straight fenders and possibly other incidental bits.  PM if interested.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: rtbickel on January 26, 2017, 12:52:07 PM
That should buff out nicely. :grin:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 26, 2017, 12:54:28 PM
Wiring harness(es): http://thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_wiring_harness_tonti_v1000_g5.html
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: LeRoy on January 26, 2017, 03:14:22 PM
You're going go have some good fun. The G5 is one of the best Tonti-framed Guzzi models to begin with. It's a great bike in its own right and may be modified in endless ways or run as a fine stock bike. It also has a clear advantage over things like an 850 T-3 beyond just the bigger displacement. Since it has iron cylinder bores you won't be faced with the flaking chrome bore issue that can be an $800 problem on the 850 T and T-3, as well as other earlier Guzzis. And, you're already money ahead because you have the hard-to-find and expensive original headlight bucket and shell. Mr. Vetter's Windjammer plague didn't apparently victimize your bike. Congratulations!

Would you like a CD containing PDF copies of all of the factory Moto Guzzi G5 documentation (Owners, Workshop and Parts Manuals), as well as copies of period brochures and advertisements, wiring diagrams, helpful hints and illustrated step-by-step engine and transmission rebuild instructions, and much more? If so, just send me a PM with your full name and mailing address and I'll drop one in the mail. No charge.

The same offer applies to all WildGuzzi members. I also have model-specific CDs for the 850 T; 850 T-3; Convert; 1000 SP; California II; California III; 1000S; original Le Mans 850; Lemans II/CX100; Le Mans III; Le Mans 1000 (IV and V); a compilation on the Mille GT_T5_SP2_Strada; a compilation on the V7_Sport-750S-750_S3; and a general but incomplete CD on older small blocks.

Same deal applies to any WildGuzzi member: Send me a PM with your full name and mailing address, the model(s) for which you'd like a CD, and your full mailing address. Free. Shipped worldwide.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Vince in Milwaukee on January 26, 2017, 03:20:02 PM
Another great old bike being saved!   :thumb:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: twowings on January 26, 2017, 04:18:14 PM
Thanks for saving her!  :thumb:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on January 26, 2017, 06:29:49 PM
Thanks, all! This is quite a supportive community. I'm looking forward to keeping this thread up to date with G5 progress.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: troyhamilton on January 26, 2017, 06:44:45 PM
I had an 850-t which someone had put a convert moter in, it was a very speedy bike. sept isnt long enuff to hurt a Moto Guzzi. And as far as LeRoys cds, they are exceptional!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: wirespokes on January 26, 2017, 09:29:52 PM
That's great it will return to duty as originally intended. Looks like a really good beginning.

LeRoy - the CD arrived for my new LM 1000, but haven't checked it out yet. Thank you!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on January 28, 2017, 09:29:26 PM
I spent the better part of today disassembling the bike.

(http://i.imgur.com/bD6F56Y.jpg)

The teardown was thankfully fairly straightforward. There were a few stubborn bots and rods but nothing that could not be coaxed. The oil from all three housings were clean of metal and each had the right smell. There was moly additive in both the rear drive and gearbox. The PO had overfilled the engine--so easy to do on these bikes.


The rear drives still moves nice and smoothly, I may clean it up and use it without a rebuild. If it does begin to leak it is the easiest component to address. The drive shaft, rear drive, and layshaft splines are in serviceable condition. The u-joint and carrier bearing are in remarkable shape, they somehow feel brand new.

(http://i.imgur.com/0kkuq6w.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xXzcAzY.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/axCbU4f.jpg)

The gearbox was in less admirable shape, and seems to have been leaking, at the very least, from the input shaft. The bellhousing REEKED of gear oil and was quite filthy--mostly on the gearbox side. The clutch pushrod still retains the two conical seals (though installed backwards?). Throwout bearing was in good shape. I will have to replace seals on the gearbox at the very least. I have not opened one of these boxes yet, so that will be new territory to me to reach the shift shaft seal and possibly do shimming.

(http://i.imgur.com/6wSncf3.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/14NCBYg.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/1DC4t6D.jpg)

After some scrubbing it's better, but there's much more to do.

(http://i.imgur.com/OJIuryJ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/0lAKtgT.jpg)


I have yet to disassemble the clutch pack for inspection. I am not hopeful it will be in good condition, especially considering the gearbox leak. Obviously I have yet to inspect the rear main flange or cam plug for leaks. I intend to replace the rear main seal, but should I also replace the flange gasket as a matter of course?


Tomorrow I intend to pull the front end, wiring, and brakes from the frame, along possibly clean more parts.

(http://i.imgur.com/bzHODey.jpg)

My favorite bit of wiring I saw today:
(http://i.imgur.com/ssvVRmr.jpg)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: azguzzirep on January 29, 2017, 07:23:19 AM
I loved my G5. Pulled a trailor with it often. The dash lights are terrible. My suggestion would  be to go custom with the speedo and warning lights.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 29, 2017, 09:37:43 AM
The gearbox was in less admirable shape, and seems to have been leaking, at the very least, from the input shaft. The bellhousing REEKED of gear oil and was quite filthy--mostly on the gearbox side. The clutch pushrod still retains the two conical seals (though installed backwards?). Throwout bearing was in good shape. I will have to replace seals on the gearbox at the very least. I have not opened one of these boxes yet, so that will be new territory to me to reach the shift shaft seal and possibly do shimming.

Obviously I have yet to inspect the rear main flange or cam plug for leaks. I intend to replace the rear main seal, but should I also replace the flange gasket as a matter of course?

I've had clutch pushrod leaks with the cone seals no matter which way they're oriented. I use a "stack" of six o-rings now and will send you some for free if you'd like, all I'll need is your address.

I would advise replacing the shift return spring while the transmission is open. There are several very helpful tutorials on the five-speed transmission here: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical.htm

I would replace the rear main bearing flange gasket (seal the threads of the two lower M8 bolts with Hondabond - they're under the oil level and will seep if you don't), rear main bearing seal, JB Weld the cam plug, replace the breather pipe gasket and replace the crush washers on the oil return line (I like to use a coating of Hondabond on them to make sure they don't leak).
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on January 29, 2017, 11:07:55 AM
Congrats! I'll def be enjoying this thread. I succesfully restored an '81 G5 a few years ago with lots of help and support from the members on this board.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Scud on January 29, 2017, 01:48:04 PM
Great and swift progress. Looking forward to the adventure.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on January 29, 2017, 07:35:19 PM
Thanks all!

Scud, if this project turns out half as well as your Scura refresh I'll be well pleased.

Today I finished stripping bits from the frame and also removed the steering bearings and races. Not too much drama except for a stubborn stanchion. I will say that the PO was a very creative electrician.

Really considering paint options now. Powder coating is ideal, but $$$, especially considering this project needs a good amount of new parts. Might try a pass of Rustoleum and see how it looks before making a final decision.

(http://i.imgur.com/ZQNvcMR.jpg)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 30, 2017, 06:51:43 AM
What? No wire nuts??  :smiley: I would do just what Charlie sez while you are there. Looks like a great project.. keep up the good work.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Scud on January 31, 2017, 10:58:57 PM
Yeah, powder can be costly. But that frame is going to take a lot of work - and the powdercoater does the sandblasting as part of the price. The paint work I did recently was surprisingly expensive. By the time I bought stripper, primer, and paint I was thinking about what a good deal the powdercoating was - especially factoring in my time. But that's a big frame... could be spendy.

I've been using North County Powdercoating in San Marcos, CA. They give me a little discount if I am willing to wait till they run something else with the same color.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on February 01, 2017, 05:23:44 AM
When I did my loop frame I used POR15 paint applied with a brush, it dries out very smooth with no brush marks.
I painted the crash bars and fender stays as well as they were all rusty.
Wear gloves because if you get it on your hands it's there for a week, don't ask me how I know.
Perhaps a new clock from Speedhut
I look forward to following this thread.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 01, 2017, 07:32:34 AM
For price reference, I paid $400 in 2015 for the frame powder coating on my G5. Included all the frame pieces, swing arm, stands, etc. They sandblasted everything and masked all the areas I wanted masked. Mine was done in Matte Black. I dreaded paying that (the restoration was adding up quickly and exponentially), but in retrospect, I'm glad I did as I don't plan on taking mine down to the frame again. It's pretty resistant to my tool slips, and wipes down pretty easily. I use Meguiar's Quik Detailer (suggested by the powder-coater guy) when I want to clean it up a little more than just a wipe down. I've heard nothing but positive stuff on the POR-15 so that definitely sounds like a good and cheaper option.

Here is a before and after:
(http://www.scooteropolis.com/images/guzzi/wg/g5_ba_1.jpg)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: troyhamilton on February 01, 2017, 07:59:51 AM
I really wished id powdercoated my 850-t a year after i built it i had tones of rock chips on the frame! :angry: good automotive paint but not intended for frames!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on February 01, 2017, 11:03:40 AM
Powder coat is expensive until you price good 2 part automotive paint.. and.. there is a learning curve to use it, not to mention the safety stuff.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: smdl on February 01, 2017, 11:15:03 AM
Looking at the cost of POR-15 (which I agree is good stuff) , including the metal prep, base coat and top coat (not to mention brushes, masking materials, sanding/blasting materials, etc.), makes the extra cost associated with powder coating seem more reasonable.  Then there is the reduction in effort to consider...

Personal choice, but I decided to go with powder coating for my frames and associated pieces).

Cheers,
Shaun
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 01, 2017, 12:23:23 PM
You pro-powdercoatering guys make some good point. I'll call up some local powdercoaters to get a more informed view of my options. My bank account is still reeling from a big MGCycle order so I may not be thinking straight.  :laugh:

Perhaps a new clock from Speedhut

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Fab up an aluminum mount for the Speedhut gauges, along with LED idiot lights. I want to integrate those wonderful positive action toggle switches somehow, but serious dash design is a long ways away.

That does mean my relative unmolested headlight bucket and totally trashed dash are free if anyone wants them.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 01, 2017, 12:50:09 PM
If free means free, I'll take the headlight. If free means available, then depends.  :grin: Sent you a PM. I have a spare set of side panels you can have if you need them. They are off a Convert and are pearl white (refinished I believe). They will need blasted.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 01, 2017, 12:53:23 PM
I'm in need of side panels so I am interested. Will respond to your PM.   
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 02, 2017, 01:46:55 PM
Does anyone happen to know the dimensions of the rear main bearing flange bolts? M8 x 1.25, but what length? I will want to replace them when I renew the flange gasket. I know to use the wave washers.

Also, since I don't want to buy the $60 bearing puller I plan to use the method detailed here: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_rear_main_bearing_flange_removal_tool.html

Does the length of the set screws matter? If they are simply there to protect the case threads from the M10 bolts I suppose they just need to sit flush.

I've tried searching but can't find the exact specs.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Tom H on February 02, 2017, 02:16:28 PM
Does anyone happen to know the dimensions of the rear main bearing flange bolts? M8 x 1.25, but what length? I will want to replace them when I renew the flange gasket. I know to use the wave washers.

Also, since I don't want to buy the $60 bearing puller I plan to use the method detailed here: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_rear_main_bearing_flange_removal_tool.html

Does the length of the set screws matter? If they are simply there to protect the case threads from the M10 bolts I suppose they just need to sit flush.

I've tried searching but can't find the exact specs.

The set screws just protect the threads while you screw down the bolts to pull the bearing.

Be careful!!!!!!!!!

My bearing was apperently stuck, the flange cracked while I was CAREFULLY and evenly tightening the bolts to pull it. I thought it was moving, but all that was moving was the flange area the puller bolts were screwed into.

If I have to do one again, I'll try the same way, but also tap it with a hammer and wood punch from the inside.

Good luck,
Tom
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 02, 2017, 03:37:07 PM
Does anyone happen to know the dimensions of the rear main bearing flange bolts? M8 x 1.25, but what length? I will want to replace them when I renew the flange gasket. I know to use the wave washers.

Also, since I don't want to buy the $60 bearing puller I plan to use the method detailed here: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_rear_main_bearing_flange_removal_tool.html

Does the length of the set screws matter? If they are simply there to protect the case threads from the M10 bolts I suppose they just need to sit flush.

I've tried searching but can't find the exact specs.

Bolts are M8-1.25 x 25 grade 8.8. Wave washers should meet DIN 137 spec. I use a low strength thread locker of the six above the oil level: https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/3019/8893/Threebond-Low-Strength-Thread-Locker , on the two below oil level I use Hondabond 4 to seal them.

It might be worth your while to make a puller - a length of steel bar, three bolts, a half hour of time and you're done. Better than buying a new $150 rear main bearing when the "ears" fracture.  :sad:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 02, 2017, 05:01:27 PM
Thanks for the specs. I'm going to have nightmares of broken bearing flanges now. Yikes.

I don't know why it never occurred to me to fabricate my own puller. It is a very simple design. hmm.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Scud on February 02, 2017, 06:37:07 PM
I don't know this specific task, but I've removed a few different bearings recently. Fabricating a puller seems like a good idea.  Appropriately applied hot and cold are also a big help.

I use a simple torch head on a hose hooked to a 5 gallon can of propane to heat and expand the part the bearing needs to come out of. If it's stubborn, you can also use some aerosol quick-freeze spray on the bearing to contract it.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 02, 2017, 07:15:19 PM
I don't know this specific task, but I've removed a few different bearings recently. Fabricating a puller seems like a good idea.  Appropriately applied hot and cold are also a big help.

I use a simple torch head on a hose hooked to a 5 gallon can of propane to heat and expand the part the bearing needs to come out of. If it's stubborn, you can also use some aerosol quick-freeze spray on the bearing to contract it.

This is the bearing:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16473176_1114869188635211_3084813577765885473_n.jpg?oh=f46f1e3ac3f0e767ed756d02099cd585&oe=59419CF7)

It goes into this hole:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16388357_1114869078635222_624249486893741506_n.jpg?oh=51109905056fb93a74a5b5f12bc53dff&oe=590EBA02)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: rodekyll on February 02, 2017, 09:14:34 PM
Charlie left out a detail:  That hole has a lot of crankshaft in the middle of your way as you install the bearing.  No room for error.  :evil:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Tom H on February 02, 2017, 09:29:52 PM
Didn't mean to scare you. Just a heads up.

Charlie has removed/installed way more rear main bearing than one can count I would guess. So follow his advise!!!!!!

The bearing does require coming straight out. No tilting to one side, it's a tight clearance fit in the case.

When I installed my bearing, I put it in the freezer for about an hour. As I slid it in, I could feel the clearance close.

It should be easy, factories do this type of stuff everyday.

Mine was just cursed I think :sad:

Tom
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: wirespokes on February 05, 2017, 07:01:47 PM
Powder coating --- I'm not a fan of powder coating a frame. I've got a bike from the Bay Area that had been powder coated, probably in the 80s, with areas of rust build-up where the coating was compromised. Because the coating is so rugged, the moisture tunneled deeper and deeper making quite a mess. The powder coating didn't flake off, just bubbled up, so the rust got worse and worse without being very noticeable.

I've heard too many stories of critical areas getting sand blasted or coated that shouldn't have been. I even heard of a Guzzi frame - one of those with the breather utilizing the frame as part of the system - that got sandblasted with sand going into that critical area. It lunched two engine rebuilds before the realization what was going on.

Frankly, I'd much rather have a painted frame - Urethane is a good solution. I've heard it holds up very well. And if it does get scraped up, isn't impossible to touch up. I also like POR 15, but have heard that it fades in sunlight. Has anyone experienced this? 

Another thing to consider is that sand blasting may not be entirely necessary. All the original paint doesn't need to be removed - most of which is perfectly good. I'd be more tempted to hand sand it, and just scuff up the areas with remaining decent paint.

I've got bikes from the 70s still wearing decent factory paint. So it's not true that regular old paint isn't durable. I wonder what it would cost to have a paint shop do the job?

Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: smdl on February 05, 2017, 07:07:31 PM
Powder coating --- I'm not a fan of powder coating a frame. I've got a bike from the Bay Area that had been powder coated, probably in the 80s, with areas of rust build-up where the coating was compromised. Because the coating is so rugged, the moisture tunneled deeper and deeper making quite a mess. The powder coating didn't flake off, just bubbled up, so the rust got worse and worse without being very noticeable.

I've heard too many stories of critical areas getting sand blasted or coated that shouldn't have been. I even heard of a Guzzi frame - one of those with the breather utilizing the frame as part of the system - that got sandblasted with sand going into that critical area. It lunched two engine rebuilds before the realization what was going on.

Frankly, I'd much rather have a painted frame - Urethane is a good solution. I've heard it holds up very well. And if it does get scraped up, isn't impossible to touch up. I also like POR 15, but have heard that it fades in sunlight. Has anyone experienced this? 

Another thing to consider is that sand blasting may not be entirely necessary. All the original paint doesn't need to be removed - most of which is perfectly good. I'd be more tempted to hand sand it, and just scuff up the areas with remaining decent paint.

I've got bikes from the 70s still wearing decent factory paint. So it's not true that regular old paint isn't durable. I wonder what it would cost to have a paint shop do the job?

I've also "heard" some of the things that you describe, but my experience with powder coating has been very positive.  Honestly, I think it really depends upon who does the work, and I am fortunate to have found someone why is more worried about the outcome of my jobs than I am!

POR-15 base coat does indeed go chalky in sunlight, which is why you will want to use their top coat on anything that will experience UV.  if you use that, you won't have a problem.

Lots of options, though, which is good.

Cheers,
Shaun
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 06, 2017, 08:17:04 AM
My powder coat guy put a corrosion prevention base before the final black coat. I think he said zinc or something. It was silver and I could see it after removing the masking tape and in areas that I sanded for ground points. I noticed though from I could tell that it was only done on the frame. The smaller parts didn't have the treatment.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 06, 2017, 12:22:37 PM
Another thing to consider is that sand blasting may not be entirely necessary. All the original paint doesn't need to be removed - most of which is perfectly good. I'd be more tempted to hand sand it, and just scuff up the areas with remaining decent paint.

I actually tried this approach as a test on a few smaller parts last week, with nice results (though unknown on long term durability). Right now I am inclined to paint the frame, less due to the cost of powdercoating (which is more reasonable than I thought), but more to just do it on my own, which is in the spirit of this project for me. :)

I am expecting a few parcels this week, and hope to start the gearbox and engine work soon.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 06, 2017, 08:09:03 PM
I wanted to make some progress tonight so I pulled the old swingarm pivot bearings and races. The blind bearing slide hammer puller made easy work of the races, though I admit it tired out my arms.  :laugh:
(http://i.imgur.com/5em57fW.jpg)

Though during initial teardown I said that the u-joint carrier bearing felt smooth, second examination revealed slight notchiness; so it, too, will be replaced. I will probably pull that bearing tomorrow evening, or try to.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: smdl on February 06, 2017, 09:36:36 PM
I wanted to make some progress tonight so I pulled the old swingarm pivot bearings and races. The blind bearing slide hammer puller made easy work of the races, though I admit it tired out my arms.  :laugh:
(http://i.imgur.com/5em57fW.jpg)

Though during initial teardown I said that the u-joint carrier bearing felt smooth, second examination revealed slight notchiness; so it, too, will be replaced. I will probably pull that bearing tomorrow evening, or try to.

I'd strongly recommend replacing all the bearings while in there, and consider rebuilding the u-joint, as well.  I decided not to do the u-joint on my Eldo, and was back in there two thousand miles later rebuilding it. 

Cheers,
Shaun


Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 07, 2017, 08:39:40 AM
I'd strongly recommend replacing all the bearings while in there, and consider rebuilding the u-joint, as well.  I decided not to do the u-joint on my Eldo, and was back in there two thousand miles later rebuilding it. 

Cheers,
Shaun

I didn't know you could rebuild u-joints... how do you do that, and where do you get the parts? Do you replace the pins?

In regards to pulling out the u-joint carrier bearing... eat your Wheaties. The swingarm bearings were "easy" by comparison in my case.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 07, 2017, 09:29:12 AM
I didn't know you could rebuild u-joints... how do you do that, and where do you get the parts? Do you replace the pins?

In regards to pulling out the u-joint carrier bearing... eat your Wheaties. The swingarm bearings were "easy" by comparison in my case.

John Chicoine rebuilds them for $150 IIRC. Here's a source for just the crosses (not sure if they're the correct sizes) in case anyone wants to do it themselves:
http://www.theujointstore.com/moto-guzzi.html

The carrier bearing can be a PITA, but lately I've been using a slightly different method and it's not so bad now. I use the large collet from my blind bearing puller set and insert it into the bearing so there's something to push against. Then I put a piece of steel rod down through the swingarm from the drive end and use the hydraulic press to push the bearing out. Easy installation too using the press.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 07, 2017, 06:14:57 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/4oMJgpz.jpg)

Not too bad coming out. More worried about how I'm going to get the new one in.   :laugh:

I also installed the pivot races, which went in without drama and sit level with about 9mm between the top of the race and the edge of the hole.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 09, 2017, 11:28:48 AM
Pretty bad in here, reeks of gear oil. Clutch plates totally ruined.
(http://i.imgur.com/GFOBcFQ.jpg)

The flywheel, ring gear, and pressure plate took a bath.
(http://i.imgur.com/aNwjfdc.jpg)

Also replaced the rear main flange gasket & rear main seal, JB-welded the cam plug, replaced breather gaskets and crush washers, and installed a new clutch.  Not all pictured as I got distracted by the work.

(http://i.imgur.com/smU8PgT.jpg)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Scud on February 09, 2017, 02:59:44 PM
Good work. And what is that dirt-bike in the background? Is it an ATK 600?
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Rick4003 on February 09, 2017, 06:06:01 PM

Looks like a good thread, but am I the only one who can't see the OP's pictures? I can see the pictures posted by the other members.

Would love to follow along :smiley:

-Ulrik
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 10, 2017, 07:38:54 AM
Checking in here on the West Coast project, all is looking good. Keep up the good work. Have a great weekend!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: twowings on February 10, 2017, 10:49:54 AM
Looks like a good thread, but am I the only one who can't see the OP's pictures? I can see the pictures posted by the other members.

Would love to follow along :smiley:

-Ulrik

The photos are pretty graphic...maybe you have Parental Controls enabled?   :laugh:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: kidsmoke on February 10, 2017, 10:54:52 AM
Checking in here on the West Coast project, all is looking good. Keep up the good work. Have a great weekend!

I'm watching as well. Groover, hope you don't mind but your G5 is in one of my desktop gallery shots (folder called "wheels" - drool worthy machines that I lust after) that cycles during the day while I'm at work. Love that bike.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 10, 2017, 11:03:54 AM
I'm watching as well. Groover, hope you don't mind but your G5 is in one of my desktop gallery shots (folder called "wheels" - drool worthy machines that I lust after) that cycles during the day while I'm at work. Love that bike.

That's awesome, and thanks! I don't mind at all of course!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 10, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
Good work. And what is that dirt-bike in the background? Is it an ATK 600?

It is! Well, a frame at least, not the engine. I'm doing this project at a local DIY motorcycle garage, so there's a lot of half finished bikes on lifts. This G5 is the only Guzzi though.

Looks like a good thread, but am I the only one who can't see the OP's pictures? I can see the pictures posted by the other members.

Would love to follow along :smiley:

-Ulrik
That's a bummer. They're hosted on imgur.com, maybe I'll try a different hosting service next time.

Checking in here on the West Coast project, all is looking good. Keep up the good work. Have a great weekend!
Thanks Groover! By the way, I received those side panels. They will be perfect, just have to get rid of that mother-of-pearl finish. Will send out your headlight soon. :)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 10, 2017, 05:36:44 PM
Good deal! looking forward in seeing more on this project, looks like you're getting a lot done.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: canuck750 on February 11, 2017, 12:25:28 PM
 Nice build, keep the posts coming!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 11, 2017, 07:46:23 PM
Did the gearbox work today. Once again I neglected to take many photos when I got in the thick of it.

The input seal seemed alright, but the two o-rings under the clutch hub were in bad shape, and the input splines were covered in old gear oil. My guess is those are to blame for the majority of the bellhousing leak.
(https://s30.postimg.org/int8m4s7l/IMG_0777.jpg)

At any rate, I renewed them, the clutch hub, and the main input seal.
(https://s30.postimg.org/dqfo10q8h/IMG_0778.jpg)
(https://s30.postimg.org/62xcwggy9/IMG_0782.jpg)

A peek inside the box.
(https://s30.postimg.org/glsr7vu8h/IMG_0779.jpg)

I replaced the rest of the seals, shift spring, and helicoiled the drain plug, as there were hardly any threads left.

Once closed back up I verified I could shift the box by hand.

Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: canuck750 on February 12, 2017, 02:46:25 PM
While you have everything apart take the crankcase breather tube and flat file the banjo end faces flat. My Eldo has refused to stop dripping after two transmission pulls, replaced rear main seals, sealed lower rear main bearing bolts, new bearing gaskets etc. Others here have found the darn vent tube banjo castings to not seal tight to the banjo bolt and crankcase even with new aluminum washers on each side of the banjo. My Eldo transmission comes out again this winter for hopefully the last time (in a very long time).
Nice progres

Jim
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 13, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
Thanks Jim, that's good advice. I will check that before putting her back together.

Spent my lunch break wrestling with the swingarm and managed to install the new bearings.

Carrier bearing:
(https://s12.postimg.org/ytuephdot/IMG_0797.jpg)

One of the pivot bearings:
(https://s12.postimg.org/50negvp1p/IMG_0796.jpg)

Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 14, 2017, 08:15:39 AM
Keep a close eye on the fit of the bushing that rides on the swing arm pivot bolt (the part that actually rides in the oil seal). I had to leave the oil seal popped out about ~1.5mm on one side (I think left side) on mine so it would actually seal properly. If I pushed the seal in flush with the edge of the swingarm (as you think it should be), I noticed the bushing actually missed making the seal it needed to make. Not sure if they are all like that, maybe something wonky on mine, but that's how I solved it (leaving the seal out just a bit, which required a new seal to fix it of course because you can't just pull out the seal without damaging it).
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 15, 2017, 09:24:38 PM
Dropped the sump this evening.

Pretty sludgy, but nothing really alarming.
(https://s22.postimg.org/imxy0iu41/IMG_0812.jpg)

All clean now!
(https://s22.postimg.org/57axb2lm9/IMG_0813.jpg)

I will have to drop the sump again as I forgot the oil filter clamp.

A look into the crankcase
(https://s22.postimg.org/uarzv2j8x/IMG_0811.jpg)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 15, 2017, 10:16:36 PM
My Convert sump looked just like that, though the engine internals were cleaner, as they should be at only 18k miles.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 16, 2017, 11:50:54 AM
My Convert sump looked just like that, though the engine internals were cleaner, as they should be at only 18k miles.

Should still look brand new at only 18k  :grin:

I opened up the valve covers and was greeted by this happy sight:
(https://s17.postimg.org/8it3sgben/IMG_0773.jpg)

Looks worse than it is, the grime/sludge wipes away without too much effort. Everything moves as it should. Methinks the PO (however many) neglected oil change schedule. Will clean it up as best I can and run frequent oil changes.

I also cleaned up the intake manifold threads. RHS threads looked great after running a tap through them. LHS have been abused. There are some threads left but I may have to helicoil them.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 16, 2017, 12:10:07 PM
Should still look brand new at only 18k  :grin:

I opened up the valve covers and was greeted by this happy sight:
(https://s17.postimg.org/8it3sgben/IMG_0773.jpg)

Looks worse than it is, the grime/sludge wipes away without too much effort. Everything moves as it should. Methinks the PO (however many) neglected oil change schedule. Will clean it up as best I can and run frequent oil changes.

I also cleaned up the intake manifold threads. RHS threads looked great after running a tap through them. LHS have been abused. There are some threads left but I may have to helicoil them.

It does look new - there's still paint marks on the rods and crank that were applied at the factory.

Run Shell Rotella T (now called T4) for a while and it'll clean all of that out. Really does wonders on neglected old engines.

My Convert has some thread issues in the same location as well. There were 30 mm long socket head cap screws, when it should have had 35 mm long. When you have two manifold gaskets and the knee guard plastic isolators to go through, that 5 mm is important.

Opposite situation with rocker cover screws - had 30 mm long (which stick out through the head casting and drag rust and other crap through the threads every time they're removed) when it should have had 25 mm long.

You probably already know this, but there are o-rings under those "cover plugs" up between the pushrods. They get hard and compressed over time and then don't seal, oil gets by and dribbles down looking like a leaking head gasket. 
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 16, 2017, 12:13:04 PM
You found black oil, if you lived in TX you'd be rich!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 16, 2017, 12:13:50 PM
Black gold is what I meant...   :azn:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 16, 2017, 10:00:34 PM
Run Shell Rotella T (now called T4) for a while and it'll clean all of that out. Really does wonders on neglected old engines.

I was planning to use that oil; it's nice to hear it will help clean out the gunk. Really a great oil, especially at the price.

I've been blessed that my previous Guzzi and BMW bikes have had trouble free final drives, so I am not too familiar with diagnostics.
I am revisiting my bevel box now, how can I check its health (to some extent) without disassembling it? I feel no play in the pinion. Pinion and wheel drive rotation feels nice and smooth. The oil showed no fragments when I drained it. Crown gear looks good, as far as I can tell, when peering through the filler hole.

Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 16, 2017, 10:54:34 PM
I was planning to use that oil; it's nice to hear it will help clean out the gunk. Really a great oil, especially at the price.

I've been blessed that my previous Guzzi and BMW bikes have had trouble free final drives, so I am not too familiar with diagnostics.
I am revisiting my bevel box now, how can I check its health (to some extent) without disassembling it? I feel no play in the pinion. Pinion and wheel drive rotation feels nice and smooth. The oil showed no fragments when I drained it. Crown gear looks good, as far as I can tell, when peering through the filler hole.

It's usually fairly easy to pull the whole pinion carrier out of the rear drive housing, it just slides out. Sometimes it can be stubborn though. Pulling that out will allow you to have a look at the pinion teeth. They're more likely to show wear or damage than the ring gear teeth. There's also an o-ring in between the flange and housing that would be good to replace.

Guzzi finally got it right with that rear drive design - they seem to suffer relatively few failures if maintained properly.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 17, 2017, 09:32:52 AM
My final drive also looked good from what I could tell, and I decided to only replace the large seal #45 and the one (out of two)#34 o-ring (the one that meets directly with the swing arm). A few thousand miles later, my final drive started dumping oil from the final drive all over the wheel and that's when I parked it last season. It was my final hurray ride that was a little longer than usual and that's when it blew. It's starting to get warmer now, and I'm just about to get into it this weekend or next to replace seal #45 again. If by any chance it's seal #25 (internal) that failed this time, do you guys think that can be replaced without removing the actual drive box from the swingarm/frame, or does the whole thing need to come down?

Final Drive Diagram:

(http://thumb.ibb.co/nr1t0a/G5_FD.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nr1t0a)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 17, 2017, 11:43:02 AM
It's usually fairly easy to pull the whole pinion carrier out of the rear drive housing, it just slides out. Sometimes it can be stubborn though. Pulling that out will allow you to have a look at the pinion teeth. They're more likely to show wear or damage than the ring gear teeth. There's also an o-ring in between the flange and housing that would be good to replace.

Guzzi finally got it right with that rear drive design - they seem to suffer relatively few failures if maintained properly.

Thanks for the advice. I will pull the pinion carrier and examine the pinion. I think I'll also flush with mineral spirits and give the box a good clean, finally replacing the pinion carrier o-rings and big seal. Any tips for pulling the big seal?

My final drive also looked good from what I could tell, and I decided to only replace the large seal #45 and the one (out of two)#34 o-ring (the one that meets directly with the swing arm). A few thousand miles later, my final drive started dumping oil from the final drive all over the wheel and that's when I parked it last season. It was my final hurray ride that was a little longer than usual and that's when it blew.

That's what I'm worried about, but I suppose there's no real way to know for certain until the bike is back on the road. Reading the literature makes these boxes seem like a real PITA to open up. Hoping for the best.  :laugh:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 17, 2017, 02:51:25 PM
My final drive also looked good from what I could tell, and I decided to only replace the large seal #45 and the one (out of two)#34 o-ring (the one that meets directly with the swing arm). A few thousand miles later, my final drive started dumping oil from the final drive all over the wheel and that's when I parked it last season. It was my final hurray ride that was a little longer than usual and that's when it blew. It's starting to get warmer now, and I'm just about to get into it this weekend or next to replace seal #45 again. If by any chance it's seal #25 (internal) that failed this time, do you guys think that can be replaced without removing the actual drive box from the swingarm/frame, or does the whole thing need to come down?

It's usually pretty easy to tell if #25 is leaking because the inside of the splined hub the whole back to it will be wet with gear oil. You'll need to remove the rear drive from the swingarm to replace it. Everything has to come out to replace it basically. The outer race of the needle bearing #27 and the thrust washer #26 need to be removed to access it. It may be necessary to heat the housing in an oven (or at least on a woodstove, with a heat gun or propane torch) in order for the outer race to drop out. Sometimes they're loose (although they shouldn't be) and you can pull them out by hand - in which case it'll need to be reinstalled with Loctite 609 (or 608? can't remember which and I'm not in the shop at the moment) Retaining Compound. 

Thanks for the advice. I will pull the pinion carrier and examine the pinion. I think I'll also flush with mineral spirits and give the box a good clean, finally replacing the pinion carrier o-rings and big seal. Any tips for pulling the big seal?

That's what I'm worried about, but I suppose there's no real way to know for certain until the bike is back on the road. Reading the literature makes these boxes seem like a real PITA to open up. Hoping for the best.  :laugh:

It's easiest to do the big seal with the flange (#41) off of the rear drive housing of course, but to do it without opening up the rear drive it might be easiest to (very carefully!) drill two tiny holes in the face of the seal, thread in some screws and pull the seal out by grabbing and pulling on the screws. There are also commercial seal remover tools (some look like paint can openers, others a bit more sophisticated) that will pull the seal without scratching the hub or flange where the seal fits. That's the most important thing of course - making sure neither of those is scratched, pitted or otherwise damaged, otherwise the chance of leak is pretty good.

I prefer to pull the rear drive completely apart so that I can chuck the ring gear and hub assembly up in the lathe and polish the surface the seals run on with Scotchbrite.

Ambassador:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/c34.0.200.200/p200x200/16711807_1123082744480522_7964891344883694557_n.jpg?oh=ca6441d39a75d76841088b9f477305ec&oe=59400EAA)

Tonti rear drives are a little harder to disassemble due to the fact that the flange is usually stuck pretty good in the housing. Even with all the bolts removed it might not budge. I've resorted to using a 3-jaw puller with the "points" of the jaws facing outward to catch a slight ridge on the splines and pulling the flange out.

Seals: the normal blue colored small seal, #9040 3850 seems to work fine, but for the big seal I prefer the "updated" brown Viton seal that Guzzi used starting around 2003, #9041 7085:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=79_234&products_id=2853
It costs 4 times more, but seems to be worth it for a leak-free rear drive.

I've actually had a test fixture made that bolts onto the rear drive that allows me to pressurize it and check for leaks.
(http://thisoldtractor.com/mg_images/rear_drive_leak_tester_1.jpg)

I'll be doing my Convert rear drive soon and will shoot some photos along the way. 
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: antmanbee on February 17, 2017, 08:18:38 PM

I've actually had a test fixture made that bolts onto the rear drive that allows me to pressurize it and check for leaks.


How much pressure do you use?
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 17, 2017, 08:39:55 PM
How much pressure do you use?

5 psi is all that's necessary.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 18, 2017, 05:22:23 PM
Wow, thanks for that incredibly informative post Charlie. When this bike is back together I will have to send you a bottle of whiskey  :laugh:

Today I installed new steering stem bearings/races and the bottom yoke into the frame. No photos as my phone/camera broke. I haven't documented it here but I have also painted the frame over the past couple weeks, it looks pretty good.

Will try to get more photos up soon.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 18, 2017, 08:42:24 PM
Wow, thanks for that incredibly informative post Charlie. When this bike is back together I will have to send you a bottle of whiskey  :laugh:

Today I installed new steering stem bearings/races and the bottom yoke into the frame. No photos as my phone/camera broke. I haven't documented it here but I have also painted the frame over the past couple weeks, it looks pretty good.

Will try to get more photos up soon.

Whiskey would be wasted on me - I don't partake of "adult beverages".  :azn:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 19, 2017, 12:24:44 PM
Whiskey would be wasted on me - I don't partake of "adult beverages".  :azn:

Fair enough. I suppose sending a fine vintage of Rotella T would not be quite the same, would it?  :laugh:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 21, 2017, 06:18:45 PM
Did a bit of work on the bevel box today. Replaced one pinion carrier stud (that came out with the nut on disassembly) and flushed the box twice with mineral spirits. I also did a bit of cleaning, but the wheel side of the box needs a lot more attention. I also have yet to replace the big seal.

Here's a video of me spinning the box. There is some noise that can be heard when spinning the box quickly. Some vibration can also be felt with a hand on the right side of the box when spinning quickly. I feel a touch paranoid, as I believe this is probably normal, but wanted to get the board's opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI9yVzgkxtc
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 22, 2017, 12:26:07 PM
Hmm.. good test for reference for sure. If that's after flushing with mineral spirits, I'd say it's probably normal. Have you tried adding a bit of gear oil back in (even just a little) to see if it still does that? Even brand new bearings sound a little bad when they are completely stripped from lubricants, add gear meshing to the equation and you might get that sound - but then again, don't listen to me.. I'm having final drive issues right now on my G5  :tongue:

I'm curious to hear what others have to say on this.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 22, 2017, 01:43:26 PM
Hmm.. good test for reference for sure. If that's after flushing with mineral spirits, I'd say it's probably normal. Have you tried adding a bit of gear oil back in (even just a little) to see if it still does that? Even brand new bearings sound a little bad when they are completely stripped from lubricants, add gear meshing to the equation and you might get that sound - but then again, don't listen to me.. I'm having final drive issues right now on my G5  :tongue:

I'm curious to hear what others have to say on this.

That video is actually with some gear oil in, though not the complete volume. Maybe 100cc. Certainly was quieter with some oil than none. It makes sense that it would make some noise without the full amount of oil and operational load on the drive.

The truth is that I have never given any of my rear drives much scrutiny, outside of regular maintenance, so I'm not completely sure what is normal, and am likely overthinking it.

There's no evidence that the drive was having problems before I stripped the bike down (no evident leaks and the bike rolled well), so I will put it on back on the bike barring contrary advice from the board.

I replaced the big seal and orings this morning, anyway. Both the old seal and new seal went out/in without protest. The sealing surfaces were smooth and unmarred.

(https://s13.postimg.org/mt0214m5z/IMG_2141.jpg)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 25, 2017, 10:38:41 AM
Back in the frame
(https://s16.postimg.org/j4yuj4dyd/IMG_0005.jpg)

Today I plan to do work on the wheels--replacing bearings and tires. I opened up the rear drive hub and the cush rubbers looked good, so they will be staying.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 25, 2017, 10:53:31 AM
 :thumb:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Scud on February 25, 2017, 11:28:40 PM
Allright!!! We've got a roller.   :thumb:

I like that dark green lower frame rail.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on February 26, 2017, 07:19:00 AM
I see some stance shaping up with those handlebars. Looking forward in seeing the full concept!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 26, 2017, 12:20:48 PM
Thanks all!

Allright!!! We've got a roller.   :thumb:

I like that dark green lower frame rail.

The plan is to continue the black/green pairing on the side panels and tank. Not sure of the specifics yet. I will probably channel some 1000S influence, as that is a gorgeous paint scheme. I also have a Lemans-style aluminum tank coming from a manufacturer in India. It is a gamble but reviews were good. Will take some photos when it gets here.


As to the work yesterday, new wheel bearings and tires were spooned on. Both the old bearings and tires were incredibly stubborn, but the bearings succumbed finally to a slide hammer setup and tires to a three main spooning team. :laugh:

I've got a leak from the rear of the clutch pushrod aperture, so it is likely I nicked the o-ring on installation. I will have to replace it, hopefully without removing the swingarm. I don't really want to pull it apart again.

Up next is to get some brakes working.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: SED on February 27, 2017, 08:14:51 PM
Cool project - thanks for all the info and pictures.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on February 28, 2017, 09:47:01 PM
Took apart the carbs this evening.
(https://s18.postimg.org/qb9nxklex/DSC08469.jpg)

 I removed all the bits, cleaned passages (though they seemed already clear), and jets. I also installed new flipper-top chokes, adjustment screws, and gaskets.

(https://s18.postimg.org/66g3s3rl5/DSC08471.jpg)
(https://s18.postimg.org/w39s4pv8p/DSC08472.jpg)
(https://s18.postimg.org/syz47xeg9/DSC08474.jpg)

Unfortunately both accelerator pumps are wrong--both missing ball bearings and one has a wrong spring. The RHS carb's float was mangled, pin slightly bent. I will also have to replace float valves on both carbs. So looks like I'll be placing another order from mgcycle.

Question: Mgcycle carries these replacement floats (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=62&products_id=4761), but they of a lesser weight than the originals. Does anyone happen to know the correct float height for the replacement floats?
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 28, 2017, 11:10:42 PM
I've not had very good luck with the white floats - most fill with gas shortly after installation. What weight float do you need - 10 or 14 gr.? I have a few good used ones around.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on March 01, 2017, 09:40:05 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't think the flat slide carbs like yours have accelerator pumps.. do they? If they do, I am missing the whole concept of the accelerator pumps.

As far as the floats go.. can you straighten the pins/stopper tab? As long as they pivot smoothly and stop where they need to stop, you should be good. I keep hearing bad things about those white ones, and I believe it. I've rebuilt lots of Dellorto carbs (vespas mainly), and anything "white" they started putting in their rebuild bags these days are junk. I once got the filter screens missing the entire screen parts, go figure. I usually keep the stock floats and filter screens as long as they are not cracked or broken.

Also, NAPA sells for about $20 a 1 gallon carb cleaner can (looks like a paint can with a basket inside) that you can soak carb and carb parts. Soak for about 24 hours, and everything comes out nice and clean and de-gunked and works a lot better than the spray cans - just a tip, though may be a little late now since looks like you got them clean now. It's also usable until the liquid turns into sludge basically. After cleaning a few carbs, I designated that can to clean other parts and it also does a good job on those (bearings, and such). It's safe on rubber and plastic too. Ok, I'm done with sale pitch  :azn:

https://www.napaonline.com/p/MCR6402

Good luck!


Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on March 01, 2017, 11:43:23 AM
I've not had very good luck with the white floats - most fill with gas shortly after installation. What weight float do you need - 10 or 14 gr.? I have a few good used ones around.

Thanks Charlie. I'd be interested if you have a decent spare float. They're 10gr.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't think the flat slide carbs like yours have accelerator pumps.. do they? If they do, I am missing the whole concept of the accelerator pumps.

As far as the floats go.. can you straighten the pins/stopper tab? As long as they pivot smoothly and stop where they need to stop, you should be good. I keep hearing bad things about those white ones, and I believe it. I've rebuilt lots of Dellorto carbs (vespas mainly), and anything "white" they started putting in their rebuild bags these days are junk. I once got the filter screens missing the entire screen parts, go figure. I usually keep the stock floats and filter screens as long as they are not cracked or broken.

Also, NAPA sells for about $20 a 1 gallon carb cleaner can (looks like a paint can with a basket inside) that you can soak carb and carb parts. Soak for about 24 hours, and everything comes out nice and clean and de-gunked and works a lot better than the spray cans - just a tip, though may be a little late now since looks like you got them clean now. It's also usable until the liquid turns into sludge basically. After cleaning a few carbs, I designated that can to clean other parts and it also does a good job on those (bearings, and such). It's safe on rubber and plastic too. Ok, I'm done with sale pitch  :azn:

https://www.napaonline.com/p/MCR6402

Good luck!

The old VHB carbs actually do have an accelerator pump setup, you can see them in this rebuild: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_carburetor_rebuild_-__vhb.html

I'll look into the bath, as these carbs are pretty easy to disassemble, and they won't be going on the bike for a few more days it looks like.  :laugh:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Tom H on March 01, 2017, 01:15:13 PM
I have the Gunk brand 1 gal carb cleaner. Works well.

On the idle jet needles. Did you notice the new ones have a different tip length. I think the long is for a VHB30? Or are they interchangable???? I would like to know why the different tip length since I'm in the need of a set for the VHB30. The 30's have an idle issue that I'm trying to figure out.

Good luck with the bike!
Tom
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on March 01, 2017, 01:49:08 PM
I have the Gunk brand 1 gal carb cleaner. Works well.

On the idle jet needles. Did you notice the new ones have a different tip length. I think the long is for a VHB30? Or are they interchangable???? I would like to know why the different tip length since I'm in the need of a set for the VHB30. The 30's have an idle issue that I'm trying to figure out.

Good luck with the bike!
Tom

The long tipped mixture screws were "EPA", the short tipped are "Euro". Interchangeable, but use in pairs - not one type in one carb and the other in the other.  :wink:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Tom H on March 01, 2017, 01:54:10 PM
The long tipped mixture screws were "EPA", the short tipped are "Euro". Interchangeable, but use in pairs - not one type in one carb and the other in the other.  :wink:

Thanks for that info.

Tom
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on March 01, 2017, 02:42:54 PM

The old VHB carbs actually do have an accelerator pump setup, you can see them in this rebuild: http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_carburetor_rebuild_-__vhb.html


That's what I love about this place. Always learning something new. I had no idea those had Accelerator pumps. Such a different design than the accelerator pumps in the rounds slide PHF carbs. (the type shown here https://goo.gl/AWKBic )



Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on March 01, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
Thanks Charlie. I'd be interested if you have a decent spare float. They're 10gr.

I have used and new in that weight. Which style do you have?


(http://thumb.ibb.co/fb2i1F/floats_2_006.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fb2i1F)

free uploading (http://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on March 02, 2017, 12:18:35 AM
My other floats are the new style. Thanks again  :azn:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on March 06, 2017, 01:26:35 PM
My aluminum tank arrived today.  I'm pretty happy with it. Not perfect but with some buff & shine, or a paint job, it will look great. I did a test fitting on my T3 to ensure fit, and it sat happily on the tonti frame. It is a bit longer than my T3/G5 tank, so I will probably have to make alternative seating arrangements than re-use the stock G5 seat.

It uses a thread on cap instead of the Guzzi cap. Guzzi petcocks threaded right on, though.

I was originally planning to paint it, but now I'm considering running it bare.

(https://s12.postimg.org/iygvgcavh/DSC08476.jpg)
(https://s12.postimg.org/bjrjnyozx/DSC08477.jpg)
(https://s12.postimg.org/7oo5le5u5/DSC08478.jpg)
(https://s12.postimg.org/vgxgwx7v1/DSC08479.jpg)
(https://s12.postimg.org/wx8zf2arx/DSC08480.jpg)
(https://s12.postimg.org/h0a7icidp/DSC08481.jpg)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on March 06, 2017, 02:31:59 PM
Leave it like that I'd say. From the photos it looked like your seat had a gap, is that still not enough space to clear? Is the tank coated in any way, or would it need polished to maintain it like that?

Maybe you can bring the green you mentioned into that somehow. JoeW has an 850T thread with a similar tank (may be the same?). His turned out nicely, so I'm sure yours will be next!
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on March 07, 2017, 11:15:25 AM
Leave it like that I'd say. From the photos it looked like your seat had a gap, is that still not enough space to clear? Is the tank coated in any way, or would it need polished to maintain it like that?

Maybe you can bring the green you mentioned into that somehow. JoeW has an 850T thread with a similar tank (may be the same?). His turned out nicely, so I'm sure yours will be next!

Good memory, it may yet fit. Will bring it by the G5 to give it a proper test fit.

There's no outer coating, so at the very least it would need to be treated in some way. If I do paint it, I'm considering a black/green paint job while leaving the knee cutouts aluminum. Lots of options to consider.

I've been reading that 850T thread this morning. Great looking bike. Very nice work.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on March 15, 2017, 11:43:15 PM
It's been a busy week. I received a package or two from MGCycle and mounted the carbs & air filter on the bike. Also a lot of bits. Here's how she looks as of tonight:

(https://s11.postimg.org/vriq4hqcj/2015_0101_080024_001.jpg)

You can see I upgraded to a modern charging system with the Euromoto kit. I fabed a quick n dirty bracket for the reg/rec that sits above the alternator. I've also begun to wire the bike. I will be using a Motogadget m-Unit, which is a very fine piece of kit. I am mounting it behind one of the side covers, again with a quick and dirty bracket. I will cook something better up before actually riding the bike any distance.

(https://s11.postimg.org/wibga9spv/2015_0101_080030_002.jpg)

I've also gone ahead and started the bike, and am very happy to say that she runs. The carburetion is rich at the moment--the bike starts up without choke from cold, and you can smell gas in the exhaust. It's possible that I set the float level too high, will have to readjust the carbs again, but that can wait. You can find a link to a short (and poor) video of me riding the bike 20 feet below. :)

Right now I'm working on wiring up the bike properly, will be a while before I gather the wires in a proper harness. I've also ordered gauges from Speedhut and will fabricate an instrument cluster around those when they arrive.

G5 Project Takes Its First Steps (https://youtu.be/6ygIooI8wxs)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on March 16, 2017, 02:02:14 PM
Nice progress, getting the bike started for the first time after working on it so much is definitely a great feeling! Looking forward in seeing the dashboard project.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on March 25, 2017, 06:35:56 PM
Steps in the wrong direction...

I mounted my T3 tank to the G5 to take it for a spin a week ago. It ran pretty well, except for a badly dragging clutch. I readjusted the clutch lever (both at the gearbox & handlebar) to no avail. It had to come apart again.

(https://s10.postimg.org/udd99yit5/DSC08483.jpg)
(https://s10.postimg.org/qv19dkhx5/DSC08484.jpg)

I was happy to see that there was no evidence of leakage in the bellhousing. The intermediate plate was slightly bent, and the flywheel slightly notched, which would account for the dragging.

Instead of replacing the worn parts I opted to try out a RAM clutch for this project.
(https://s10.postimg.org/o4wiu4am1/DSC08487.jpg)
(https://s10.postimg.org/pxzfifvsp/DSC08488.jpg)

The new RAM clutch's pull is incredibly light. I'm looking forward to seeing how it performs on the road.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Scud on March 26, 2017, 02:01:21 AM
You're gonna love that RAM clutch. Super-easy pull as you already noticed. Quick connection and easy shifting. Depending on how heavy your original clutch was, you may even notice the engine rev faster and settle into downshifts faster.

Great progress.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on March 27, 2017, 10:48:11 AM
Mounted my sidecovers (thanks Groover) on the pins provided by Charlie. Once I stripped the old paint I rather liked the bare metal look--so I painted a 1000s inspired stripe and clear coated the covers.

(https://s9.postimg.org/ys7nnohfj/DSC08491.jpg)
(https://s9.postimg.org/xbw55jein/DSC08490.jpg)
(https://s9.postimg.org/sh2g79g73/DSC08493.jpg)
(https://s9.postimg.org/y3yt4qipr/DSC08492.jpg)

I plan to use a similar scheme for my aluminum tank. I've also acquired a beat up but restorable fender & seat from a Lemans 2 that will better suit the tank.

Still waiting for my Speedhut gauges. I want to fab the dash and mount it before wrapping up my electrical harness. The bike is coming along.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on March 27, 2017, 01:15:06 PM
That's looking great! I can't say I've seen another Guzzi with the bare swirl brushed pattern on the sheet metal pieces. Are you going to clearcoat them?
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on March 27, 2017, 02:24:46 PM
Thanks Groover. They acquired the pattern as I was using a wire wheel to strip 'em. I did apply a couple layers of clear after painting the stripes, so these covers should be good to go.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: NCAmother on March 31, 2017, 11:57:14 PM
I really like the air filter setup.  I don't have an airbox for my 850T, was this a direct drop in from K&N?  I was thinking of using separate filters but really like your setup better
Nate
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on April 01, 2017, 07:24:14 PM
Yeah, you can get it straight from K&N. I know MGCycle also carries them. MG2640

It is a bit finicky to get seated on both carbs.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on April 07, 2017, 11:05:50 PM
Here's how she looks as of today:

(https://s22.postimg.org/4c11wfjfl/17818498_1725271041092362_6490037394933284864_n.jpg)

I decided against painting the tank (actually painted a corresponding stripe then stripped it off). The tank is too beautiful in its polished aluminum brilliance.

A lot else has happened. I installed new FAC dampers and progressive springs in the front suspension. I painted the lower forks, as you can see. I've delinked the brakes, using a 15.8m kawasaki master cylinder to drive the front calipers. I will use the same rear caliper, or at least try to. I am waiting for more brake line to get the rear operational.

I found a Lemans mk 2 rear fender and seat, which you can see attached to the bike. The seat is a bit worn. I am looking to replace or restore it eventually--there is no rush here for me.

I wired the bike and wrapped the harness. All that is left for electrics is to wire (and fabricate entirely) the dashboard and front turn signals.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: NCAmother on April 10, 2017, 12:37:51 PM
One beautiful bird my friend.....
Here's how she looks as of today:

(https://s22.postimg.org/4c11wfjfl/17818498_1725271041092362_6490037394933284864_n.jpg)

I decided against painting the tank (actually painted a corresponding stripe then stripped it off). The tank is too beautiful in its polished aluminum brilliance.

A lot else has happened. I installed new FAC dampers and progressive springs in the front suspension. I painted the lower forks, as you can see. I've delinked the brakes, using a 15.8m kawasaki master cylinder to drive the front calipers. I will use the same rear caliper, or at least try to. I am waiting for more brake line to get the rear operational.

I found a Lemans mk 2 rear fender and seat, which you can see attached to the bike. The seat is a bit worn. I am looking to replace or restore it eventually--there is no rush here for me.

I wired the bike and wrapped the harness. All that is left for electrics is to wire (and fabricate entirely) the dashboard and front turn signals.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on April 16, 2017, 04:35:08 PM
Thanks NCA!

This week I got my gauges on.
(https://s4.postimg.org/4qkt2wjt9/g5_instruments.jpg)

They were easily mounted with some cups from Speedhut bolted to some simple bar stock run along the upper triple clamp. The Speedhut gauges are very nice, really have nothing but good things to say about them so far. Very simple to wire up.

I've also started the tuning process. I retimed the bike and verified that the advance mechanism is working correctly. Running the bike with the carbs as I got them showed lean carburetion (by examining the plugs). So I swapped in 142 mains and 265 atomizers. The carbs were already equipped with 60 pilots. I left those in.

Power is OK all around, though I am hoping to get a bit more out of her.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on April 17, 2017, 02:08:39 PM
Nice job with the instrument cluster. I do like those gauges, will definitely consider them in the future.

What size were the main jets before putting the 142 in? Curious what you end up doing to gain a little power. Did it have more power before upping the jets?
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on April 17, 2017, 04:48:35 PM
Nice job with the instrument cluster. I do like those gauges, will definitely consider them in the future.

Thanks Groover. Just have to find a place for some idiot lights for the dash. Were I to do it again I would buy one of the all-in-one units, containing a speedo, tach, and idiot lights in one gauge.

Quote
What size were the main jets before putting the 142 in? Curious what you end up doing to gain a little power. Did it have more power before upping the jets?

The old mains were 125. The 142s seem to help the top end but I think I'm running a bit rich on the transition phase, just off idle. Might try lowering the needle.

I also tried the stock 50 pilots, but in that case idle was running incredibly lean--spitting and backfiring. Perhaps my float level is a tad low, about 24mm, but in either case replacing the 60 pilots yielded a smooth idle.


I installed a Dyna ignition, which according to the marks on my RAM clutch is timed correctly, but that is another variable to consider. I tried advancing by a few degrees but that caused idle to suffer.

Right now the G5 feels about as fast as my T3, perhaps a touch slower, which isn't bad as the T3 recently got a brand new top end. I think I might be expecting a bit too much from the old girl.

Isn't tuning these old bikes fun?  :laugh:
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on April 20, 2017, 11:26:56 AM
Took another crack at carburetion yesterday. Reset both floats to 23mm, kept the same 142 main and 60 pilot jets. Dropped the needle to the 1st notch. Running rich at idle but pretty damn good everywhere else. Might try 50 pilots next.
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Groover on April 20, 2017, 11:46:45 AM
Have you played around with the low-end needle adjustment? Screw it in all the way, then back it our a few turns as a starting point. Screwing it out is to richen, screw in to lean it.

This one:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/bFwDWQ/carb.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bFwDWQ)
Title: Re: New G5 Project
Post by: Antiquar on April 21, 2017, 11:17:54 AM
Have you played around with the low-end needle adjustment? Screw it in all the way, then back it our a few turns as a starting point. Screwing it out is to richen, screw in to lean it.

This one:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/bFwDWQ/carb.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bFwDWQ)


I have, but if I have the jets on hand I like to try.  :laugh: In fact, I popped the 50s back in and the idle was definitely too lean. I replaced the 60s and was able to achieve a decent idle with the mixture screw.

I think the main might be a tad too rich but I'm going to ride it as is for a while.