Author Topic: V85 - more torque please  (Read 3244 times)

Offline ArchieFergus

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V85 - more torque please
« on: October 02, 2020, 04:44:31 PM »
We are building a vehicle using the V85 engine. We would like to optimise torque through the range. No doubt this has been raised before, so forgive me for bringing it up again. There are ample options (Stage 1/2, remap etc.), but which have members found to deliver the greatest benefit?

Offline Knuckle Dragger

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2020, 10:25:55 PM »
Gasflow through the combustion chamber is a bit restricted in the standard motors.  They consequently run rather lean & hot.

You can firstly get a little more clean air into the cylinder with a free-er flowing filtration element from aftermarket suppliers.

Likewise, the manifold pipes are rather narrow.  There's a few suppliers of free-flowing headers around, notably one from my own little island of Tasmania!?!.  A decat would help, too, allowing the whole kit to run cooler & more efficiently with installation of a wide-bore y-pipe collector.  Too wide, however, will actually reduce any given motor's bottom end grunt.  An element of back pressure is required to prevent too much scavenging of unburnt air/fuel mixture.

Further back, improvements in power will become incrementally smaller.  Free flow of gases through the combustion chamber will improve torque, but aside from slightly enhancing scavenging, you'll still need to maintain an element of muffler back-pressure to aid torque at the expense of top-end power.

With a basic aftermarket change of filtration & exhaust collectors you should get a cooler running, richer running motor with noticeable power & marginal torque gains.

Additional gains would have to involve modification of ECU mapping, injection and timing way beyond my own rather mediocre expertise.
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Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2020, 09:53:48 AM »
The easiest fix is use a 4V 1200 mill.

Small blocks are no matter how much you bore them out are still small blocks.
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2020, 10:28:47 AM »
Teaser, Let us see some pics of the vehicle and details of the build please.
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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2020, 10:28:47 AM »

Offline Knuckle Dragger

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2020, 11:20:03 PM »
Possibly the most foolproof means of increasing torque from low-capacity engines is gear (or belt) drive supercharging.  Given the smaller physical dimensions of v-twin engines maybe a Sprintex screw-type air compressor would be preferable to a Rootes-type vane blower.

With separate cylinder heads/exhaust manifolds/headers on a v-twin an exhaust-turbine supercharger (turbo) won't work as efficiently as the gear driven alternative.

Superchargers really do "supercharge" the performance of small motors, with virtually lag-free instantaneous power directly proportional to engine speed & relatively independent of throttle position, unlike exhaust turbine supercharging.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2020, 08:56:55 PM by Knuckle Dragger »
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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2020, 07:35:55 AM »
We are building a vehicle using the V85 engine. We would like to optimise torque through the range. No doubt this has been raised before, so forgive me for bringing it up again. There are ample options (Stage 1/2, remap etc.), but which have members found to deliver the greatest benefit?

Can hardly believe that it is economical to use a motor out of a new bike (or 1 year old) and spend a chunk of change to 'improve' it, when when you could buy an 8V 1200 or even a 1400 for 50% of the cost as a bolt in issue.
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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2020, 09:14:36 AM »
Others have reported the V9 engine as having more torque but lower revs than the V85. I'm on board with using a big block if the packaging works.
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Offline ArchieFergus

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2020, 06:53:19 AM »
Teaser, Let us see some pics of the vehicle and details of the build please.

This is the development vehicle with an MG V7






Offline ArchieFergus

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2020, 06:57:51 AM »
Can hardly believe that it is economical to use a motor out of a new bike (or 1 year old) and spend a chunk of change to 'improve' it, when when you could buy an 8V 1200 or even a 1400 for 50% of the cost as a bolt in issue.

We would love to fit a big block instead but the build will not be complete until next year, by when we in the UK will have to comply with the Euro 5 standard. None of the MG's larger than the V85 meet the requirement.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 06:59:56 AM by ArchieFergus »

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2020, 08:13:49 AM »
This is the development vehicle with an MG V7





Beautiful vehicle.  I didn't realize you were marketing a vehicle, thought it was just a one off personal project.  I haven't read the whole thread, but would love to learn more about it. 

Have you reached out to Mark Bayle (Beetle)?  He has a website, and can send him a message through his site to discuss tuning.  His maps do not generally create 'more' power, but maximizes power and torque delivery.  There is only so much you can do given the starting point.

Something to think about, the V85 motor passes the current EURO standards, but I would imagine significant changes to the motor, tune, TB size, fueling etc will effect the emissions, and you may be at the same point with being non compliant.

This isn't my industry or expertise, but in the US many companies sell cars like this as 'kits' where the buyer sources the motor, and the seller has adapter plates/kits, etc for a variety of motor applications.
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Offline ArchieFergus

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2020, 08:54:39 AM »
Beautiful vehicle.  I didn't realize you were marketing a vehicle, thought it was just a one off personal project.  I haven't read the whole thread, but would love to learn more about it. 

Have you reached out to Mark Bayle (Beetle)?  He has a website, and can send him a message through his site to discuss tuning.  His maps do not generally create 'more' power, but maximizes power and torque delivery.  There is only so much you can do given the starting point.

Something to think about, the V85 motor passes the current EURO standards, but I would imagine significant changes to the motor, tune, TB size, fueling etc will effect the emissions, and you may be at the same point with being non compliant.

This isn't my industry or expertise, but in the US many companies sell cars like this as 'kits' where the buyer sources the motor, and the seller has adapter plates/kits, etc for a variety of motor applications.

I am not trying to market it. The vehicle (a Pembleton T24) is commercially available - mine is the first one ordered - but each one is bespoke and they have not tried to pair the V85 with it before. 

Offline Murray

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2020, 09:01:53 AM »
Lower the gearing and rev the snot out of it, other old school solution is heavier flywheel, won't actually make more torque as such something about conservation of momentum. I think Rodsmith motorcycles (look up on youtube) turbo'ed a V9 which with what's available would be relatively easy compared to supercharging. Although any messing with the mapping exhaust or the induction will most likely burn the motors euro 5 compliance to the ground

Offline ArchieFergus

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2020, 09:37:10 AM »
Thank you both. I have sent a message to Mark Bailey (the vehicle is being built only a few miles from his workshop) and I enjoyed Rodman's YouTube rebuilds.

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2020, 12:39:52 PM »
As someone else mentioned, a V9 motor might have better low end torque than the V85.

Is the 1400 motor Euro-5 compliant?
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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2020, 01:07:25 PM »
As someone else mentioned, a V9 motor might have better low end torque than the V85.

Is the 1400 motor Euro-5 compliant?

To be clear the V9 makes similar peak torque numbers to the V85, but at about a 2k lower rpm, and it makes more torque from there to ~3k and equal torque from 3-5k.

Here are the number I posted in Huzo's thread (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=107750.new#new), as best as I could from sourced dyno readouts.

V85 - 66 hp @ ~7980  / 49 ft lbs @ 5160-5300

V9 - 51 hp @ 6000 / 47 ft lbs @ 3500


RPM - V85 RWHP / Torque vs V9 RWHp / Torque :

2K - 15 / 38  vs 15 / 40

3K - 24 / 39  vs 28 / 47

4K - 38 / 46  vs 37 / 46

5K - 46 / 47  vs 46 / 46

6K - 55 / 46  vs 51 / 44

7K - 64 / 46 vs -----

8K - 66 / 45  vs -----
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Offline ArchieFergus

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2020, 02:05:10 PM »
To be clear the V9 makes similar peak torque numbers to the V85, but at about a 2k lower rpm, and it makes more torque from there to ~3k and equal torque from 3-5k.

Here are the number I posted in Huzo's thread (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=107750.new#new), as best as I could from sourced dyno readouts.

V85 - 66 hp @ ~7980  / 49 ft lbs @ 5160-5300

V9 - 51 hp @ 6000 / 47 ft lbs @ 3500


RPM - V85 RWHP / Torque vs V9 RWHp / Torque :

2K - 15 / 38  vs 15 / 40

3K - 24 / 39  vs 28 / 47

4K - 38 / 46  vs 37 / 46

5K - 46 / 47  vs 46 / 46

6K - 55 / 46  vs 51 / 44

7K - 64 / 46 vs -----

8K - 66 / 45  vs -----

Interesting figures. How much more would it be reasonable to extract through tuning from the V9? I have been spoilt by the X Wedge on my Morgan Three Wheeler, and I know a V9/85 could not come close to the pull from that engine, but perhaps we could close the gap a little?

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2020, 02:46:00 PM »
I'd say shorter gears and the V85 is likely the way to go.   Torque, is of course multiplied with gear reduction.   The redline of the V85 is what  30-33% higher than that of the V9?    So, with a final drive that is 30% lower, rear wheel torque will be 30% higher with the V85 motor in any given gear, with, the motor, of course, spinning at a 30% higher RPM.
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Offline acguzzi

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2020, 03:31:16 PM »
the exhaust will be tuned to resonate at some rpm. By retuning it for lower rpm you will increase torque at that point at the expense of torque at higher rpm, it may be possible to flatten the curve.

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2020, 04:15:54 PM »
Interesting figures. How much more would it be reasonable to extract through tuning from the V9? I have been spoilt by the X Wedge on my Morgan Three Wheeler, and I know a V9/85 could not come close to the pull from that engine, but perhaps we could close the gap a little?

I don't have any data for you.

Unlike say Harleys who left way hp on the table or even other manufacturers who were forced to leave room for improvement by meeting emissions standards the Guzzi smallblocks for years were largely limited by the heron head chamber design and didn't respond much to the easy upgrades (air cleaner, exhaust, tuning).

That said the new hemi heads are a whole new thing in the sense and may fare better.

It's just such a small market few have done anything like that yet, therefore... Not data.
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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2020, 04:28:45 PM »
 I seriously doubt there are more than a couple of stray lbs ft to be found W/O some version of forced induction . Slightly longer primary header pipes with an appropriate remap might shift some to a lower RPM range with some sacrifice of higher RPM numbers . In this case there is no replacement for displacement .

Dusty

Offline ArchieFergus

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2020, 04:32:02 PM »
I don't have any data for you.

Unlike say Harleys who left way hp on the table or even other manufacturers who were forced to leave room for improvement by meeting emissions standards the Guzzi smallblocks for years were largely limited by the heron head chamber design and didn't respond much to the easy upgrades (air cleaner, exhaust, tuning).

That said the new hemi heads are a whole new thing in the sense and may fare better.

It's just such a small market few have done anything like that yet, therefore... Not data.

Yes - understandable. And to be fair, my M3W (with Stage 2) is a largely unconstrained Euro 3 and they are stopping production at the end of the year because they cannot meet Euro 5. The new vehicle will be 180kg lighter than the Morgan but around 100 kg heavier than the V85TT so it may not feel too bad compared to the S&S engine, but there is only so much one can do with 850cc without significant rebuilding.

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2020, 08:00:24 PM »
I reckon the Ď85 would have had more appeal in some respects if it had the V9 mill from the get go.
Iíd like to ride one so equipped.
Iíll have a ride on a Roamer one day if I know my mates canít find out...

Here's another view, yrmv...

http://exhaustnotes.us/blog/index.php/2020/10/06/exhaustnotes-road-test-triumph-scrambler-vs-moto-guzzi-happy-meal/

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Offline Kremmen

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2020, 09:22:58 PM »
by when we in the UK will have to comply with the Euro 5 standard.

Is that the case for kit car personal builds, or has Pembleton dropped the kit option now? I couldn't find it any more the last time I took a look at their site.

That's a pain if so, you really want a big block for one of these IMO. :(

Offline lucky phil

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2020, 09:26:22 PM »
Yes - understandable. And to be fair, my M3W (with Stage 2) is a largely unconstrained Euro 3 and they are stopping production at the end of the year because they cannot meet Euro 5. The new vehicle will be 180kg lighter than the Morgan but around 100 kg heavier than the V85TT so it may not feel too bad compared to the S&S engine, but there is only so much one can do with 850cc without significant rebuilding.

Never thought I'd make this statement about a Guzzi, but it could also probably do with a heavier flywheel if its got to haul around an additional 100KG. Would just make launching from a stand still a bit easier I'd imagine and improve its lugability a little.

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« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 02:10:43 AM by lucky phil »
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Offline ArchieFergus

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2020, 12:29:14 AM »
Is that the case for kit car personal builds, or has Pembleton dropped the kit option now? I couldn't find it any more the last time I took a look at their site.

That's a pain if so, you really want a big block for one of these IMO. :(

Some of the kit-built four wheel Pembletons had 1300+ Guzzi or BMW engines, but they only offer turnkey vehicles now.

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2020, 03:11:25 AM »
Lovely looking car but I too canít see how they can keep Euro 5 rating after changing just exhaust let alone anything else, guess itís a deal done whereby Guzzi sell compliant motor, Pembleton just submit this compliance paperwork to dvlc and no one looks ?

Gearing it down was good idea but stuck with 2CV 4 speed box is going to be a limitation, fitting modern FWD 6 speed would make a lot of sense .
Or submit the paperwork for v7 (compliant) engine but actually fit a BB 1400, that should be alright with 4 speed but that much torque through a 60 year old gearbox might strain it a tad.

Best of luck, this is a good project, V85 is lovely motor IMHO, but the bike is seriously heavy, adding weight and chucking that box on is a big ask.

Offline ArchieFergus

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2020, 06:54:07 AM »
Lovely looking car but I too canít see how they can keep Euro 5 rating after changing just exhaust let alone anything else, guess itís a deal done whereby Guzzi sell compliant motor, Pembleton just submit this compliance paperwork to dvlc and no one looks ?

Gearing it down was good idea but stuck with 2CV 4 speed box is going to be a limitation, fitting modern FWD 6 speed would make a lot of sense .
Or submit the paperwork for v7 (compliant) engine but actually fit a BB 1400, that should be alright with 4 speed but that much torque through a 60 year old gearbox might strain it a tad.

Best of luck, this is a good project, V85 is lovely motor IMHO, but the bike is seriously heavy, adding weight and chucking that box on is a big ask.

I fear that you are right. I may just have to accept it with either of those underpowered engines and push it hard with every gear change.

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2020, 07:08:02 AM »
Thanks a lot for posting the project.. Real nice!
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Offline janguzzi

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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2020, 07:13:52 AM »
We are all hoping that Paiggio is working on a new 1100 or 1200 engine but no one knows.
Maybe this will be revealed in 2021 when Guzzi celebrates its 100 years anniversary.
If you are on LinkedIn you could try to contact one of the resonsibles.

I had a phone call with the German Guzzi specialist Roland Dšs while ago.
Maybe he will work on a torque kit for the V85TT but you should not expect so much.
Maybe 3 HP more and bit a more torque.
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Re: V85 - more torque please
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2020, 10:07:02 AM »
Triking has a Carc Guzzi based engine layout. So can be build with an euro 4 cali 1400 engine. Not all Cali 1400 are euro 4. 
http://www.type4.trikingsportscars.co.uk/ But different from the 4 wheel one.
I would not set hopes on tuning the V85 engine. Any change will lose the Euro 5 status.
If it has to be tuned, a compressor or turbo might be the best way. Since in the engine there is not much to gain, the factory did their best on that with even titanium valves. 
Paul

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