How do they REALLY compare ?

[Huzo]

I have 12,000 km on my V85 and can find no cause for complaint, so I won’t.
But..
I’d like to hear from any or all out there who have enough distance on a V85 engine and a V9, to give me a one on one comparison. I’ve never been on a V9 myself but from what I gather, the V9 is more “Guzzi like” in it’s delivery and lacks for nothing in the mid range.
Are the crank cases identical and would a  V9 Motor bolt straight in ?
From what I’ve gleaned, the V9 motor would be a better fit for the V85’s intended brief, that is to say a fat mid range and flat torque “curve”....(flat curve..  )
 Suffice to say that, if my V85 let go in a monumental fashion, I’d not die wondering if a V9 could be made to fit..

[Dirk_S]

Disclaimer: no miles on a V9 and only 5 miles of test riding on a V85. But, going off specs...

The V85’s engine is significantly more powerful than the V9’s. I wouldn’t want a V7 or V9 near that body and weight.

[Kev m]

Dirk - I believe it's a mere 60# difference in weight between the V85 and the V9.

I've ridden them back-to-back and said here many times since I walked away with the surprise, in love with the V9 and all meh about the V85.

The V85 makes power more like our Duc (but by that don't get carried away it's not as quick,). By that I mean it spins up quick but also it NEEDS to in order to make that power. So it's spinning more going down the road.

The V9 really reminded me/felt more like my Call 1100 (Jackal) then my V7 Stone. That really surprised me. When I looked at the numbers I realized the power to weight ratio was pretty close to my Jackal, but specs aside it just felt like it had more push and I liked the way that felt much more than the V85.

My understanding is that they are the same crankcases and as such you see a hole through the block on the V85 because there's a motor mount there on the other smallblocks. But I don't know if the other V85 motor attachment points are there on the V9 motor. I told check the parts lists at AF1 but last time I looked they were gone.

[Dirk_S]

Dirk - I believe it's a mere 60# difference in weight between the V85 and the V9.

Right, but add in the less power, and the experience in a V85 chassis won’t be like what was felt in the V9’s.

Specs recorded:

Power: -25 ponies (V85TT: 80 HP / V9: 55 HP)

Torque: -18 Nm (V85TT: 80 Nm / V9: 62 Nm)

Weight: 60’ish lb difference

Again, no real world experience is worth reiterating, but with the added weight combined with less power, I’d presume a lackluster performance, and the mid-size adventure bike as is already has every journalist and owner admitting it doesn’t grunt like some others.

Again, merely conjecture, so please prove me wrong. It keeps me humble.

Now, if we’re talking swapping engines the other way around, I’d be quite giddy!

[bad Chad]

Why all the longing for what is not?

Regardless, I have not yet ridden a v85.    I do love my v85, I find for the riding I do, the motor is a smile maker.  Yes, it reminds me in a good way of my 99 Bassa, and has much different power delivery than my B1100, and closer to the Bassa.   So I can't help you regarding a direct comparison.   Good luck.

[Kev m]

Right, but add in the less power, and the experience in a V85 chassis won’t be like what was felt in the V9’s.

Specs recorded:

Power: -25 ponies (V85TT: 80 HP / V9: 55 HP)

Torque: -18 Nm (V85TT: 80 Nm / V9: 62 Nm)

Weight: 60’ish lb difference

Again, no real world experience is worth reiterating, but with the added weight combined with less power, I’d presume a lackluster performance, and the mod-size adventure bike as is already has every journalist and owner admitting it doesn’t grunt like some others.

Again, merely conjecture, so please prove me wrong. It keeps me humble.

Now, if we’re talking swapping engines the other way around, I’d be quite giddy!

You're speaking my language. I love the detailed specs, thanks.

That said let me point out a couple of mitigating factors:

* You're talking crankshaft and not rear wheel. It seems that Guzzi has underrated the Hemi head V9 and V7 III HP because they seem to dyno with much less driveline loss than other recent Guzzis. As a matter of fact I want to say off the top of my head is more like 69 hp vs. 52 at the rear wheel. So the numbers you quote have Guzzi overating the V85 while simultaneously underrating the V9.

* Peak hp is fine, but it can be misleading. It requires it the motor to be wrung out close to redline. Meanwhile the torque numbers tell us a lot about what it's like to live with day after day. And it's not just the peak number but WHERE it occurs. I don't have the data in from of me but I bet the V9 makes similar or more torque at a much lower rpm. And if so that makes a huge difference in real world not redlining it every time you pull away usage.

The 60# might be the difference between you and me. Hell it's a fraction of the difference of an average passenger. And the journalists who already comment about grunt are likely already noticing the difference in torque at a lower rpm. That's the definition of grunt.

I really think the specs are misleading this time from my multiple demo rides. I was so surprised by my first demos that I traveled 3+ hours each way for that I traveled 2 hours each way to a different state the following month for more demos.

Oh and for the record I would never swap engines the other was as I don't LIKE the V85 motor. It "feels" weak in comparison. Go figure.

[Kev m]

Ok I looked it up. Rear wheel numbers are:

V85 - 66 hp @ ~7980  / 49 ft lbs @ 5160-5300

V9 - 51 hp @ 6000 / 47 ft lbs @ 3500

So there's a 15 hp difference but only at 2k higher revs and only a 2 ft lbs difference in torque.

That's a much smaller difference and almost negligible on torque but there's more to the story.

Through 3000 rpm the V85 is only making around 40 ft lbs of torque and it actually dips below 40 from 2500-3000. At this same time the V9 is above 40 from 2500 to 6000, and basically a flat line. Now the V85 curve flattens out too, just not till after 4000. And that's the difference (and at the same rpm) I feel between our Duc and our V7s. Not that the Duc is a bad motor. It's a blast, but it's a different feel and a prefer the V7.

On hp the V85 doesn't beat the V9 till about 5000 rpm and beyond. Which is great if you're WOT but again there's little too no advantage below that.

I'll see if I can post some images or links once I get up and get on the laptop for work.

[Huzo]

I just wondered why the V85 was the great white hope and the V9 was the red headed step child ?
If Guzzi had not gone out of their way to make the V9 look like it was a high school metalwork project, or something cobbled together on scrapyard challenge, they probably would have sold in greater numbers.
The V85 is marketed as a bike with a solid off road bias, so I would have thought it would have fulfilled it’s design brief more fully, with the meatier midrange flatter pulling motor.

[Kev m]

My swag is the design brief is A ROAD bike in the ADV Touring category and the more peaky Ducati-like engine is more the norm in the category.

But yes I think the V9 mill would do well in it, especially on dirt or off-road. But no one transplants a "less powerful" motor into a chassis. And no manufacturer wants to purposely bring out an even less "competitive" bike (in peak numbers) in a hot market segment.

All that said, I think Guzzi was swinging for the fences with the V9 aesthetics but wiffed and struck out.

Though I'll say it's grown on me, a little like my old B11 which was to be honest pretty homely.

[Kev m]

Dyno charts and links:


V85:

https://www.cycleworld.com/how-much-power-does-2019-moto-guzzi-v85-tt-adventure-make/

Cycleworld:




RiderMag:




V9

RiderMag:




Motorcycle.com:






All right I compared all these charts as best I could but that had to involve a tiny bit of extrapolation at the ends and some swags but here's an honest try to compare the two motors rpm-by-rpm

RPM - V85 RWHP / Torque vs V9 RWHp / Torque :

2K - 15 / 38  vs 15 / 40

3K - 24 / 39  vs 28 / 47

4K - 38 / 46  vs 37 / 46

5K - 46 / 47  vs 46 / 46

6K - 55 / 46  vs 51 / 44

7K - 64 / 46 vs -----

8K - 66 / 45  vs -----


Summary:

Between 2-4K the V9 has more grunt/torque (especially around 3-3.5k)

They are comparable from 4-5 maybe 5.5 almost 6K

> 6K the V9 is done and the V85 is spinning up and taking over.

And part of my description on the feel of the V85 is that you NEED to spin it, maybe that's only an additional 1k motoring down the highway, but I felt like I had to give it more throttle to do the same things.

[Dirk_S]

 

Stand. Breathe deeply. Kneel back down, and...

 

Kev, you're awesome, and displayed another solid example of why I specifically would look for your posts and comments before hopping on board this forum (the only forum these days i give regular attention to, for better or worse).

And here I thought the V85 motor was a return back to the days of significantly higher power and torque in the likes of the earlier Guzzi V-twins. I guess I'll stop kissing all my titanium houseware at the end of the night.

[Kev m]

Ha ha, I'm just SUPER anal retentive and a bit of a spec's geek.

Now don't get me wrong, I think a lot of people would PREFER the V85, it IS a change from the usual Guzzi engine/feel.

As a matter of fact I keep comparing it to our Duc, here's a 696 dyno from Ridermag (keep in mind the 696 is about 400# wet though so more like 100# lighter than a V85):

[Wayne Orwig]

And part of my description on the feel of the V85 is that you NEED to spin it, maybe that's only an additional 1k motoring down the highway, but I felt like I had to give it more throttle to do the same things.

....snipped all of the charts and data...

I got a chance to do a long test ride on a V85TT a couple of weeks back.
Most of my recent miles are on a 2004 EV, hydraulic engine, with the wide flat power band. And years back I had the Centauro, then a Stelvio. The EV motor is still a great thing to me. It has such a wide flat power band, you just give it throttle and go. Shifting is optional. And of course the 8 valve motors are great, twist the throttle, soon you are over 4k RPM, and it is pulling your arms off.
So I was really curious about the V85. I wondered how they got that HP number, since it was either more torque, or more revs, or some of each. Sadly, it is from more revs. Don't get me wrong, it has plenty of horses and it will get you in trouble pretty fast, but when I was playing around in the twisties, you needed to be in the right gear or shift often to keep the revs high. Not what I was used to. I would have preferred a bit more torque at lower revs, even at the expense of a few horses at the top.

[Kev m]

....snipped all of the charts and data...

I got a chance to do a long test ride on a V85TT a couple of weeks back.
Most of my recent miles are on a 2004 EV, hydraulic engine, with the wide flat power band. And years back I had the Centauro, then a Stelvio. The EV motor is still a great thing to me. It has such a wide flat power band, you just give it throttle and go. Shifting is optional. And of course the 8 valve motors are great, twist the throttle, soon you are over 4k RPM, and it is pulling your arms off.
So I was really curious about the V85. I wondered how they got that HP number, since it was either more torque, or more revs, or some of each. Sadly, it is from more revs. Don't get me wrong, it has plenty of horses and it will get you in trouble pretty fast, but when I was playing around in the twisties, you needed to be in the right gear or shift often to keep the revs high. Not what I was used to. I would have preferred a bit more torque at lower revs, even at the expense of a few horses at the top.

 

[acguzzi]

no doubt the V85 needs more revs, but then it has a 1000rpm higher limit before losing power so you are going to be in a lower gear, I suppose it depends if you want a lower reving engine then yes, the v9 would be for you, the curves would have to be correlated to road speed (and gear ratio) to get the feel for acceleration or hey maybe a test ride? There's a thought!

[Jorg66]

Wow, m'i ever surprised  !!!!! and thats positive about the V 9. something to look at . Thanks Kev m.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I have 12,000 km on my V85 and can find no cause for complaint, so I won’t.
But..
I’d like to hear from any or all out there who have enough distance on a V85 engine and a V9, to give me a one on one comparison. I’ve never been on a V9 myself but from what I gather, the V9 is more “Guzzi like” in it’s delivery and lacks for nothing in the mid range.
Are the crank cases identical and would a  V9 Motor bolt straight in ?
From what I’ve gleaned, the V9 motor would be a better fit for the V85’s intended brief, that is to say a fat mid range and flat torque “curve”....(flat curve..  )
 Suffice to say that, if my V85 let go in a monumental fashion, I’d not die wondering if a V9 could be made to fit..

We are all different in our wants and needs but Kev certainly thinks like you
You prob should get a test ride on  v9 first but if you want to do the swap I’d buy a v9 and swap motors.
Only slight catch is timing chest mount on v85, swapping timing covers should solve that.
I’m on the look out for write off or possibly leftover new v9 anyway, I want the clutch/box/swinging arm/ drive box for my SB 8v
So another option is share the buy price and you get to keep both motors/ECU’s etc etc

[Huzo]

We are all different in our wants and needs but Kev certainly thinks like you
You prob should get a test ride on  v9 first but if you want to do the swap I’d buy a v9 and swap motors.
Only slight catch is timing chest mount on v85, swapping timing covers should solve that.
I’m on the look out for write off or possibly leftover new v9 anyway, I want the clutch/box/swinging arm/ drive box for my SB 8v
So another option is share the buy price and you get to keep both motors/ECU’s etc etc

I’m not looking to swap my ‘85 motor of course.
I’ve just gotten home from a quiet 500 k ride and am pleased to report that it goes beautifully (mostly..), and slurped 17 litres for the first 401 km....(4.2 l/100 km).
I just wonder, how many people turned away from the V85 because of the price, when a V9 equipped variant would have done the job just as well and all the unused/unsold V9 motors out the back could have found an instant home.
If there was a V9 equipped V85 selling alongside the V85 at a reduced figure, I certainly would ride both before deciding...Then I’d buy the ‘85, but only because I said I would from the get go when it was a “concept bike”...

[wymple]

It's my firm lifelong belief that riding torque is more fun than riding HP, unless you just like playing Johnny Roadracer.

[John A]

It's my firm lifelong belief that riding torque is more fun than riding HP, unless you just like playing Johnny Roadracer.

Yep, torque is what makes a vehicle fun to ride.

[Moparnut72]

One of the main reasons Harleys are so popular.
kk

[rtbickel]

The charts above all show the V85 redline at 7,980 rpm.  The tach on mine has the redline at 6,900 rpm.  Are there a lot of revs that I am missing out on because I deem it unwise to venture much above the marked limit?  50 years of riding experience tells me that things get splodey if I do that. 

[Solorider73]

I can't speak to the V9, but I do have a V7 III and a V85TT.  My butt dyno already told me the V85TT requires a few more revs than the V7 when taking off.  The V85TT will cruise all day at 85mph while the V7 will also do 85mph, just not as comfortable.  I assume it's just a trade MG made on a 850cc engine that fewer people would actually take them off road vs actual highway riding.  If the V85TT were your only bike, then you would not notice the difference after a few rides.  Since I ride them back to back a lot, I notice it, but it's really not that big a deal.  The difference between the two is not like riding a 600cc sport bike that can't pull out of the drive way under 8000 RPMs.  Given how well they are selling, I doubt they will change anything about them until required.  My dealer told me the V85TT is currently their highest selling MG model over the last year.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Dyno charts and links:


V85:

https://www.cycleworld.com/how-much-power-does-2019-moto-guzzi-v85-tt-adventure-make/

Cycleworld:




RiderMag:

To me that is an excellent result from an SB that started life as very cheap and cheerful 350/500 commuter.
Difference between two just dyno discrepancy, peak torque at 5k with nearly 5k rpm spread over 40 lb/ft

But I believe there are some taming maps that also lower peak torque more for those that don’t want as much

Dyno run on rain mode might be interesting but I believe there is also an A2 map for inexperienced riders in Europe and UK.
It may be rain map for rest of world, dyno run would prove but detuning is always easier than tuning, if mapping doesn’t do it, cam timing will.

Hard to believe the v85 is now too fast after everyone saying it couldn’t be as fast as claimed
Full circle ?

[Kev m]

Hard to believe the v85 is now too fast after everyone saying it couldn’t be as fast as claimed
Full circle ?

No, I believe people are saying it doesn't make the power until it is SPINNING too fast. That's different.

[rtbickel]

Asking again, what is the actual redline?  The charts say 7,950 and the tach is marked at 6,900.

[Kev m]

Asking again, what is the actual redline?  The charts say 7,950 and the tach is marked at 6,900.

Well what does the owner's manual say? How about the service manual?

The dyno charts and even Guzzis own website clearly indicate the peak hp is above the demarcation you reference. Hell the factory hp rating is AT 7750 rpm

SO, logically speaking, the 6900 must be the equivalent to the old yellow range on a tach, I.E the start of a warning zone. The ACTUAL redline is (like on most motors for decades) electronically limited by something that cuts spark as in a "rev limiter".

[rtbickel]

I was at first thinking is was a typo or Guzzi translation problem -  just wanting to make sure a con rod doesn't make an impromptu excursion, as dictated by past experience of the expensive (circa 1980) kind.  Kind of goes against the grain to see the tach needle sweep 1000 rpm past the marked redline.  I might gingerly hunt for the rev limiter.  What the hell, its under warranty for two more years.   

[Kev m]

I was at first thinking is was a typo or Guzzi translation problem -  just wanting to make sure a con rod doesn't make an impromptu excursion, as dictated by past experience of the expensive (circa 1980) kind.  Kind of goes against the grain to see the tach needle sweep 1000 rpm past the marked redline.  I might gingerly hunt for the rev limiter.  What the hell, its under warranty for two more years.   

I get that...

[MMRanch]

I've hit the rev-limiter on my V-9 one time.  My buddy on a BMW F-800 twin and I were neck and neck --- then my rev-limiter cut in about time his power-curve cut in and it was ... embarrassing 

but

If a rocket is what you want  ,  then you need to get a Suzuki GSX-R 1000 anyway !