Author Topic: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project  (Read 2669 times)

Offline leroy_can

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LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« on: January 18, 2021, 09:24:18 PM »
   Hi, New member here my 1st and only Guzzi was and is my 1987 LMIV SE bought  new in 88. Despite remaining mostly stock in appearance it has dual plugged/ported heads, aluminum timing gears, Baisley roller tipped rocker arms, 92mm nikasil cyl kit, and lightened flywheel all from Manfred at Raceco.
  Rennesport 1102 cam, Dyna ignition and coils, Bub Hyper exhaust. It was my main machine for many years and has 180,000 kms on it but I mostly lost interest in it and only use it 15 days a year now, I have 4 other bikes (We can get a cheap 15 day permit here 1 time per year) I never sell anything and considering it's value vs money I poured into it I may as well keep it.
    Newly retired I got the idea to attempt a 1400 conversion. Got a super deal on a 2014 engine with reasonably shipping. Since then I have been scouring the net to learn what I can about such conversions. They sure get attention and seems you either love or passionately hate the idea especially the carbureted part of it
   I am within a couple of weeks of fitting it to the frame and fully expect completion by spring. Unless I miscalculated somewhere or some of my one-off ideas are fails.
   My goal is to keep the bike as unchanged as possible for now and utilize as much as I can from the existing bike. Pretty sure some of this will be unique to this build.
     I should be able to return it to stock easily and the 1400 should be good to go back into a modern California as nothing is irreversible
      I have adapted the Bosch alternator and front cover from the LMIV (the alt being the most sketchy thing but time will tell) The mods I did to the rotor are however irreversible.

   Electronik Sanche front mounted ign. which I can use on the LMIV if the project fails. Most $ spent other than engine was this ign.
      Spent a very long time making a set of mirror image intakes to adapt my 40mm Dellortos
    THe Bub exhaust will be adapted. I bought a pair of 1400 headers and hope to make them and the Bubs go together but they are those massively thick looking double wall pipes and might look wrong but just to initially complete it they will do. the 1400 ex ports are larger and as well I need to lose the top crossover for an oil cooler location.
      Oh yeah I also expect to drive the original tach from the front cover drive but that's still in progress . Once that is completed or abandoned it can go in the frame
     Having my bike complete right there was a great help to measure and compare but last week I had progressed enough to pull the old eng out. FYI both engines side by side configured identically I took the opportunity to weigh them and It will only gain 10-11 lbs. If I do use the 1400 headers that figure will go up somewhat.
     I'm not overly concerned with the extra power destroying things I am 68 now and treat my toys gently but like having reserve power for some occasions.
     If I saw more other Guzzis over the years I might have known about other ways to make some of this work but had to work with what I have

1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2021, 10:24:33 PM »
Great project, looking forward to following your progress, very impressive machine tool skills! :thumb:
48 Guzzi Airone, 57 Guzzi Cardellino, 65 Benelli Barracuda, 66 Aermacchi Sprint, 68 Gilera 106SS, 72 Eldorado, 72 Benelli 180, 74 Guzzi 750S, 73 Laverda SF1, 74  Benelli 650S, 75 Ducati 860GT, 75 Moto Morini 3-1/2, 78 Moto Morinii 500

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2021, 11:12:28 PM »
Sounds like it already has plenty of motor. I'll be following this  :popcorn:
2000 Quota 1100 es
1997 Daytona RS
1987 LeMans SE Dave's Cycle Racer
1974 850-T Sport
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1991 Ducati 907ie ( Paso )
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Offline Rick4003

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2021, 01:52:38 AM »
Very cool project! Looking forward to following along! Machining works look nice too!
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2021, 01:52:38 AM »

Online Dave Swanson

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2021, 05:36:48 AM »
Finally someone that Les P can relate to.   :bow:   :cheesy:

Great project.  I will be following for sure. 
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
1968 V700
1973 V7 Sport
1974 Eldo
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1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
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Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2021, 12:18:45 PM »
  1st, I'm extremely flattered by the comments so far especially having seen the work done by them. I don't have photos of every step but here are a few more showing what was involved with the front cover. For something that looked like a bolt-on it was far from that.
   To start with the oil pump gear projects much further forward and the cover can't come close. Initially it didn't look like there was enough material to give the gear clearance but  it was difficult to measure. Finally I bought a spare cover on Ebay and started cutting mine. I was pleasantly surprised to gain clearance without seeing daylight and no discernible thin spots. I cut enough to completely clear with no gasket so it should be fine now. Oh yeah also the area behind the seal was contacting the front crankshaft nut but didn't take enough material removal to worry about.
    The bolt pattern was unchanged except for 2 items: 1st the 4 upper holes needed to be enlarged on my old cover for 8mm bolts and if you look closely at the photo you can see 2 spots circled where 1 hole was filled with a plug and a new hole drilled and tapped to match the old cover. Another fortunate thing was that the casting fully allowed for the relocated hole.
    Next the 1400 motor has 2 alignment dowels. Viewed from the front, the upper left larger one is the same as the LMIV location and the  bottom right uses a smaller hollow one the screw passes through. I counter bored the lower front hole from the inside in my LMIV cover to match
    Then I was able to fit my cover over the dowels. Fortunately I still hadn't enlarged the 4 upper holes or drilled the other new hole. Although the cover was a sweet fit on the dowels and the holes looked good there was a significant miss-alignment at the crankshaft hole. So I had to remove the dowels.
    I machined a disc to center the cover at the alternator and installed all the 6mm screws I could. Then I enlarged the 4 8mm holes as accurately as I could using close tolerances so the bolt shanks become the dowels. Many of these operations would have been way easier and more accurate with the bare block on the milling table but taking the nearly new engine apart was hopefully to be avoided. Turned out good enough and on final assembly I will also confirm alternator clearance and centering.
     Now my risky solution to the Bosch rotor adapting. I searched the internet looking at various crankshafts and alternator choices but saw no easy solutions. With my continuing goal of not taking the engine apart I proceeded. As far as I could find anyone else who has done this probably would be difficult to communicate with in English. Back to working with what I have. Just like the front cover I began my mods to the rotor with apprehension since without cutting an old rotor in 2 how do you know when you will cut into the windings or simply weaken it.
    Basically I bored out the center from the rear until it could clear the 1400 crankshaft. With the uncut rear face contacting the crankshaft nut the depth relative to the stator was nearly perfect. I then made an aluminum sleeve/spacer to press into the hole I bored that is a close fit to the threaded end of the crank for support. Next I cut the center out of the 1400 alternator pulley to be a press fit into the Bosch rotor.
   Both were pressed/locktited in. So now the rotor went on the shaft using the 1400 keyway but only the press fit and locktite keeping it from spinning. Any movement would be bad especially with the front mounted ignition.
    My solution was drilling an angled hole picking up on the keyed pulley center and into the center core of the rotor and pushing a Harley transmission rolled into it. Amazingly all this was completed without breaking through and the rotor still passes all tests.
    Next I needed a 8mm threaded hole into the crank center for the rotor bolt. Made a drill guide and at first couldn't touch the shaft, finally found a dremel cutter that would work it's way in and got past the hardening. Spent 2-3 days drilling and tapping this one hole slowly working up in bit size till I was there. As soon as a bit stopped cutting it would work harden the shaft and had to get past that. Used 4 different taps pushing as hard as I dared and then going to the next one. Every tap seemed to be sharper in different ways and make a few more degees of rotation. If the Guiness people have a record for the most time spent drilling and tapping a single hole I am a contender.
   It nowhere comes close to the factory grip of the tapered LMIV rotor/shaft connection but with locktite on the final assembly it has a chance. A chance of working perfectly. A chance of the crankshaft snapping like a carrot. A chance of working loose and spinning. And if it all succeeds a chance of being hard to remove if ever needed. Time will tell
    One positive note as a self taught machinist and despite having an excellent lathe I usually have some inaccuracies but sometimes you get lucky and they cancel themselves out. With the rotor held down with the bolt and a dial indicator on the commutator I initially thought my dial indicator was broken but it was just no run-out. Spinning perfectly true has got to improve my chances.
   Now waiting for a donor cam I bought to see if I can adapt the spiral gear to the front of the 1400 cam drive jackshaft both securely enough and acurately enough to function








 
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline Groover

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2021, 04:35:32 PM »
Very excited about this one. I'm an LM1000 fan, especially the IV and can't wait to see this. I didn't catch it in your notes, but are you widening the rear as well or are you just swapping the engine? Either way, sounds like a great project and thank you for sharing it with us here.
1981 Moto Guzzi V1000G5
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, a
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, b
1980 Piaggio Vespa P200E
1980 Piaggio Vespa P125X
1980 Vespa Grande Moped
1980 Vespa SI Moped
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Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2021, 06:46:34 PM »
 Negative on the wider tire for now just want to get it together and "sorted". If I am successful and enthused enough who knows what else I will do later. Thanks for the interest
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2021, 05:44:49 PM »
 I received the V-50 donor cam I bought to harvest the tach drive gear from on Tuesday and here is what I have done to allow the 1400 motor to drive my original big white tach.
   Due to the play in the threads getting "0" run out was not going to happen and even if I did it might have varied next time it went together. Initially at 50 ft lbs it was about .008" but with the cover on I could turn it over and the pinion gear always had play. I just did the official final torquing and it dropped to .004-.005" run out so I am happy. I also had to ensure that the blind nut was properly tightening against the gear and not contacting the shaft end.
    Not something I expect anyone to ever copy but I guess if you wanted to make a non tach drive cam drive your tach this is one way. One more yet to be proven mod. I always tell myself with these sort of things that I will  keep an eye on what I have done but if it seems to work I usually don't see it again until I'm back inside that area.
     The 1/4" mild steel plate is welded to the nut with TIG using silicone bronze rod (basically TIG brazing) and the spiral gear is a tight fit in the plate and silver soldered.





1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline Rick4003

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2021, 06:47:43 AM »
That looks very nice and neat solution to ad a tacho drive. What settings did you use on the TIG braze? And what type(brand) of filler did you use?
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
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Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2021, 10:37:31 AM »
  Hi, I don't know the brand, I have had a bundle of it for years I got from work. It has no tags or markings and looks very similar to regular mild steel copper coated tig rod. Set your welder for steel straight dc and use roughly the same amperage settings or a  little less. Control the heat with the foot pedal using enough to make the rod flow but not melting the parent metal. Very much like the difference between gas welding and gas brazing because that's exactly what you are doing Brazing. Tons of good you-tube videos on it. For something like I just did it's great as it is very forgiving and the cad or zinc on the nut doesn't mess you up like it can with tig welding. Here is a picture of a silicon bronze rod

 side by side with a steel rod with the silicone bronze on the left. easy to mix them up if both are near your welder but  you can see the difference when you look close. If not sure only the steel is magnetic.
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline Groover

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2021, 07:20:03 PM »
Does your SE have the ZD box with the straight cut gears? If so, have you had any issues during the 180,000 Km?
1981 Moto Guzzi V1000G5
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, a
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, b
1980 Piaggio Vespa P200E
1980 Piaggio Vespa P125X
1980 Vespa Grande Moped
1980 Vespa SI Moped
http://scooteropolis.com/

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2021, 08:41:42 PM »
Hi, I will try again I had this almost done and it vanished. Anyhow, I bought the bike brand new in early 88 and it was definitely the red/white
   SE with black eng and trans. There was no official distributor in Canada then and it was "Euro spec" with the sleeker turn signals, Euro jetting, and slight differences in the switch gear as well. I bought the complete earlier bodywork 86? from a racer and run that now.
     It had a standard 5 speed which got a progressively noisy 5th gear when it was getting up in miles and I re-did as required then and a few years back it seemed noisy again but I went through it and everything looked OK. Since then I found the rear drive pinion  getting loose and took care of that but didn't change the gears hoping they would find a new happy spot. It's staying about the same noise wise but the 1400 might finish it off.  Last year I put a very low mileage 02 trans in and although it was a vast improvement being the new style shifting apparently the gear noise remains so no doubt rear drive.
     I keep hearing that the SE's were straight cut close ratio but considered it an urban legend. Even my owners handbook which lists the ratios confirms they are all standard 5 speed.  The bike illustrated in my owners manual is also the red/white scheme
    Are not all red/white 87's SE's ? Do the 2 you own have the straight gears?
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline Groover

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2021, 06:58:29 PM »
I think all the red/white '87 models with black drivetrain are SEs, and I believe the same red/white trim was used in the European models for '86, but unfinished drivetrain and helical gears. Both mine have the ZD box with the straight cut gears with the tall first gear and closer ratio between them. The gearboxes are stamped with a serial number. Mine both start with ZD97xxx. The serial number is under the battery tray, right behind the starter solenoid area on the gearbox case.
1981 Moto Guzzi V1000G5
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, a
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, b
1980 Piaggio Vespa P200E
1980 Piaggio Vespa P125X
1980 Vespa Grande Moped
1980 Vespa SI Moped
http://scooteropolis.com/

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2021, 10:36:53 PM »
 Mine is T 955xx and definitely helical and standard ratios. Another difference from the others I have seen is there are no schrader valves on top of the forks for an air charge. I have seen SE's with and without these valves. Could be the European model differences. Either way my first gear seems high enough for me especially in recent years not using it consistently enough to get smooth with it's not too progressive clutch. It takes me till usually the 3rd day on it for it to feel normal to me.
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline Rick4003

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2021, 08:41:19 AM »
  Hi, I don't know the brand, I have had a bundle of it for years I got from work. It has no tags or markings and looks very similar to regular mild steel copper coated tig rod. Set your welder for steel straight dc and use roughly the same amperage settings or a  little less. Control the heat with the foot pedal using enough to make the rod flow but not melting the parent metal. Very much like the difference between gas welding and gas brazing because that's exactly what you are doing Brazing. Tons of good you-tube videos on it. For something like I just did it's great as it is very forgiving and the cad or zinc on the nut doesn't mess you up like it can with tig welding. Here is a picture of a silicon bronze rod

 side by side with a steel rod with the silicone bronze on the left. easy to mix them up if both are near your welder but  you can see the difference when you look close. If not sure only the steel is magnetic.

Thanks, I have some brazing rod from ebay that was labled as being for TIG brazing, but I have had limited success with it. First I tried DC and then AC, but it doesn't seem to work that well. I don't have a pedal yet, but have just assembled all the parts to make one. (Kemppi wants a extraordiary price for the original one  :shocked:) It's pretty simple really, did a mock up on a bread board and it worked well. 1. 10KOhm pot meter + 1 micro switch. That's all thats in it. The interesting part is just turning the pot meter via the pedal. But that should be easy to firgure out.

My rod also looks almost identical to normal steel wire, more copper colored than what I have seen the Youtube guys are using. I probably just needs to play around with it a bit to figure it out.
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Offline Groover

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2021, 01:30:08 PM »
Both mine have this type of cartridge. There is still a bit of mystery out there on these SE models. Mine are both in need of work to get them back on the road, eventually I'll get to them. Looking forward to your project. Didn't intend to side track the thread.





1981 Moto Guzzi V1000G5
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, a
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, b
1980 Piaggio Vespa P200E
1980 Piaggio Vespa P125X
1980 Vespa Grande Moped
1980 Vespa SI Moped
http://scooteropolis.com/

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2021, 02:14:37 PM »
  Here are some updates hopefully more pictures than text and I will try to insert the pictures with their description above. It is very close to going together waiting now for a front cover gasket to do the final assembly and fit the ignition to the front of the alternator. I did some trial fitting of the lower rails which is mostly what I will be showing here.
   You can see where there were 4 lugs 2 on each side that are right where the frame rails need to go. The 2 on the left were higher and I had trimmed them already and the R. H. ones I thought would clear but I had to take a little off the top of the rear one. You can also see where the R.H. lower rail joins the frame needed some trimming of the webs on the crankcase. Also trimming to allow a wrench to fit the nut at the same frame junction. Right below that frame junction is the banjo fitting for the oil outlet to the cooler. For this I had to punch a hole through both frame sections. Really 1/2 a hole in each not all that easy but turned out OK. For anyone asking if I reinforced the frame for the 1400 I guess the answer is no I actually weakened it.







 





   Noticed a broken fin on the sump I had never seen but found a picture of the engine the day I received it that shows it arrived like that. No big deal just a little blending with mini belt sander. Can't believe it took so long to see but of course the engine sits there on a rag and your looking from above.


     The back of the engine seems very straight forward. I fitted my Raceco lightened flywheel and confirmed my timing marks on the flywheel with a degree wheel. The trans is a very low mileage 02 I put in the bike last year and because it has the updated internals I can use a late model starter. The neutral switch relocation on the 02 trans allows this to clear the solenoid. The photos show the starter on my original trans case vs on the wrinkle finished 02




     I have always split the eng and trans on the ground lifting the frame and front end up while rolling it ahead. Now that I have a lift I did the trans last year on the lift. I realized too late that with the wheel clamped at the front I needed to move the engine back as I raised the frame. This was unexpected and awkward. This time I made a little dolly on wheels for the eng/trans and put a hook in the ceiling and this worked perfectly. I always try to come up with something that can be done by I person.




image upload

  Lastly here is a little tip that is not of my creation but  some tip I saw years back in some magazine. I'm sure most of you have seen this before but if not and you are tired of punching yourself in the face, of gouging paint, and skinning knuckles do this. If the side/centerstand or whatever is installed just extend it and push thin washers between the coils and raise the stand and the spring is now loose. If the spring is off already it's safer to set up something on your vice or whatever and extend it and do the same. I know 1 person who lost an eye doing snowmobile exhaust springs.


upload images
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Online Dave Swanson

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2021, 07:09:34 AM »
I like your idea of the pulley.  I might steal that one day. 

And thanks for the reminder of using washers on the springs.   I read that too years ago, but I haven't remembered it in time to help me out so far.   :laugh:
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
1968 V700
1973 V7 Sport
1974 Eldo
1977 Vert
1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
1993 1000S - Sparklehorse
2004 V11S - Eraldo-ized
2015 Norge GT8V - Beetle-ized
2015 V7 Special - Beetle-ized
2016 Griso SE - Beetle-ized

MGNOC L-780

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2021, 05:07:54 PM »
  Very frustrating, I was almost done this post and lost everything but that's me and computers. Anyway I got the front cover gasket yesterday and am making great progress.
    After countless trial fittings the front cover is on hopefully to stay. The tach drive tests good with no tight spots and the rotor and stator  are also both on again hopefully for good.
     The picture is not clear but the rotor is slightly ahead relative to the stator but the brushes are fully on the commutator so it's fine.
      The Raceco lightened flywheel is on with a fresh clutch and the timing marks confirmed. You can see the timing pointer I transferred from my old engine. This is needed because the lightened flywheel is too far in from the timing hole for accuracy.
      The Elektronik Sachse ignition is in place and ready to static time which I was going to do out of the bike but looks so dead simple I will do it in the frame.
     At the start of this I said how pricey the ignition was but if the 1400 conversion was a fail I would use it in the old LMIV engine. Unfortunately the most likely failure will be the alternator and if that was to happen it probably would be goodbye ignition. We'll see what happens.
   With most things taking longer than predicted I said 10 days ago I was a couple of weeks from fitting it to the frame and that should happen tomorrow. Then I will see what other obstacles I didn't foresee.
    I'm pretty sure the gas tank will fit and it looks like the gas taps and throttle cables and top breathers will have to live together in close proximity but can't sort that till it's in the frame. Exhaust will be easy to make function and hopefully I can make it look right but I'll take what I get looks wise until I have proven the rest.
    I made some little reinforcing do-dads to keep the plastic front alternator cover from cracking at









 the holes but I will probable do a little post in general about that
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Online Huzo

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2021, 05:23:48 PM »
I have a subtle feeling that you’re gunna’ fit right in here... :popcorn:

Offline Rick4003

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2021, 01:17:10 AM »
Good idea with the pointer for the flywheel, I think I will steal that. Now I finally got my milling machine pushed into the workshop, so flywheel lightening is coming up soon! :)

Looks good with the rest of the project! Definitly is inspirering.
 
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2021, 04:42:44 PM »
  The engine went in with no surprises so now mocking up the exhaust and fitting the tank. Reasonably happy with how the exh. will look. I can't easily change the 1400 headers because of the double wall but I always wanted the Bubs to have a bit of  up-sweep and that will happen now. I won't go any further on that until it's more together to make sure there is nothing else to consider. I kind of like the fat header look and the bigger engine.
     Where I made the hole for the oil banjo is good but need to cut and weld the banjo to kick it inboard slightly, no big deal.
    The fairing lowers will need to be cut just ahead of the valve covers and figure out a small rear mounting tab for them.
     The tank is closer to the inside of the cyls. than I predicted but fairly hard twisting on the rubber mounts still doesn't contact anything I can raise the back of the tank 1/4" if I want without affecting the seat's fit.
     Like I expected throttle cables, gas taps, and breather are close together but seem quite OK,

stock cables should work and change the straight breather outlets to a tight 90.
     Now that there is no upper exh. crossover I can sort cooler mounting. I bought 2 different coolers so I'll have options.
     I popped the pinion out of my rear drive and no surprise really it's on the way out. I'll see what ebay has on offer. prefer to stay 7/33 but could live with 8/33.
      I can make the bike complete with the bad one and change it out later.
      There is virtually nothing to do wiring wise except hooking up the new ignition and a little for the AFR gauge I will run till it's sorted.
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline Groover

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2021, 07:37:04 PM »
Going to an 8/33 might actually be better in your configuration. The 7/33 could be fun, but thinking it might be a little short...

Le Mans 1000:


California 1400:



Specs pulled from: https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/
« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 07:45:08 PM by Groover »
1981 Moto Guzzi V1000G5
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, a
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, b
1980 Piaggio Vespa P200E
1980 Piaggio Vespa P125X
1980 Vespa Grande Moped
1980 Vespa SI Moped
http://scooteropolis.com/

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2021, 11:10:37 AM »
  That was a long stretch of not seeming to get anywhere but I guess I was. Picking away at multiple items and not completing anything. Finally I am moving forward. The pictures show the collection of fittings to feed oil to the cooler and from there to the heads and the fittings that will be for the breather plumbing. Also is shown the oil cooler mounting system that was very time consuming to make.
    The congested area of the crankcase breather outlet, fuel taps, and throttle cables wasn't going to work so I modified the outlets and added 90 degree fittings to clear the taps and ordered a set of carb tops from MG cycle to allow cables directly into the tops. When they arrive I will see if I can modify my stock cables to work or will need to make all new cables. 
     I had mentioned that my rear pinion gear was on the way out and bought a 8/33 box on ebay that turned out to have excellent gears but a bad pinion spline. I modified the coupler with a double slot and welded it on. I was expecting that cutting the slot would be difficult but it cut easily on my mill nowhere near as much hardening as expected. One more questionable repair who's success remains to be seen. I bought a second 7/33 box as well that is very nice so I have a backup. My trans is from an 02 and because it was for a 8/33 rear drive it had a different speedo gear and I had to put my original one in to get it right so now with an 8/33 I will put the gear that came with the 02 trans back in and should be good. I don't have them in front of me but I know there is a 1 tooth difference and you can run either with the gear in the trans depending on the final drive ratio.
     

1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2021, 10:22:19 AM »
    I don't count the new ignition or AFR gauge wiring as changes to the bike's wiring as they are both independent from the harness as far as I'm concerned. The only actual wiring change is the oil pressure sensor in the 1400 motor is a different connector than the one in the LMIV. I could have swapped sensors but changed the connector instead.
     Just before I stopped for lunch yesterday I was putting the rear wheel on and ran into a glitch. The 8/33 rear drive I am using needs to have the spacer shortened by .220". I managed to make a press in plug so I could chuck the rear drive in my lathe and very carefully shorten the spacer without dissembling the drive. The plug was not as tight a fit as it needed so I used locktite to secure it and it held fine, I pressed it out when done.
    It just fit my 11" swing lathe with the studs removed. I only turned it at 55 rpm due to the imbalance and took .010" per pass. 22 passes later it was good. I was amused to see the picture I took while machining it. Digital cameras never capture motion properly and it looks like I am spinning it at 1000 rpm. with the obvious imbalance that would have been disastrous. In the end the wheel went on just before supper instead of lunch so it wasn't too big of a setback.
    The other picture shows the 2 different speedo gears I mentioned last post. The original one from the LMIV with the 7/33 ratio is 11 teeth and the 10 tooth one is what came in the 02 trans I put in last year which is back in now to match the 8/33 box.
    Having ran the 11 tooth gear for over 1000 miles last year it is now confirmed to me that either gear works fine against the one inside the trans.  I hope the 8/33 will not prove too high for my tastes. I have no doubt the 1400 motor will pull it with no problem but I still want to be able to run 5th without lugging at normal hwy. speeds.
    I got the last oil line pinch clamps yesterday so hopefuly I can make good progress tying up several loose ends before the next surprise







1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2021, 04:01:27 PM »
  Whoa this is 2 progress reports in one day, you gotta love momentum when you get it back. These photos show the cooler installation and lines which took more time that I can believe to come up with fittings lines and routing. I am now very happy with the result and it all works together great. The tach cable is unaffected and the alternator wiring also is unaffected. Most importantly is the alternator cover is still removable without disturbing the cooler or lines and since I will be setting up the new ignition in there that's perfect. Working in that area is always claustrophobic and even on the lift is not my favorite spot.
   The 1400 motor has basically a double oil pump and the forward set of gerotors is dedicated to directly feed the cooler and from the cooler the feed is









to the cylinders,cams etc. so the hottest  parts get direct oil from the cooler, a very smart design I think.
    The cooler I picked was an actual Guzzi one from an 07 Breva 1200 S.
  By the end of the day I should also be able to show how I am running the breather plumbing as well
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2021, 06:30:28 PM »
  Okay, here is how the crankcase will breath I hope. when the LMIV was fairly new I realized that I  didn't want the moisture laden crankcase fumes rusting my frame from the inside and I didn't want to return the oil to the engine that had been through the frame. I basically flushed the frame and sprayed oil into it and then blanked  it off and tried to duplicate the breathing externally. It took a few tweaks to get it where nothing was venting on the bike. The little "puke can" I made has a stand pipe and holds 4 ounces of oil. I drain it every couple of days on a trip every 1000 miles or so and as long as it doesn't fill up nothing escapes. I might add 1/2 qt.between changes.  You can see how the 1400 engine vents from both heads at the end of the cam with a sweet centrifugal separator. I took a 3/8 hose from both of these tee'd into 1/2 to a high point towards the neck and split it back into 2 3/8 lines one going forward and down to the forward frame junction and one going back to the "puke can" below the trans.  Any playing like this with breathers can be experimental and I will see how it goes and how much if any gets to the can and sometimes it is as simple as finding a "happy" oil level for an engine. I worked 40 years as an aircraft mechanic and saw many examples on both pistons and turbines where you could add every flight trying to keep the engine filled to max of let it get down a little and hardly ever add.
    So this will be a good starting point and maybe a good finishing point.







1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

Online Turin

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2021, 10:31:01 PM »
WOW! I love that you are keeping the factory look instead of building another cafe racer.
I think the SE's were a USA thing. My theory is that they had 100 straight cut gearboxes and figured, " lets give them to the Americans and charge them an extra pile of Lire !"  ( theory pulled straight out of my ass)
2000 Quota 1100 es
1997 Daytona RS
1987 LeMans SE Dave's Cycle Racer
1974 850-T Sport
1969 A-series Ambassador
1996 Triumph Daytona 1200
1991 Ducati 907ie ( Paso )
1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6 Balocco SE 3.0

Offline leroy_can

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Re: LMIV / 1400 / Tonti / Covid project
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2021, 10:14:23 PM »
 Hey Turin, Back in 91 I sent my seat to Corbins and it came back done so bad I returned it. It got lost and fortunately I had pictures of the seat I was unhappy with and they agreed to redo it but I had to supply another base. I bought one from Harpers and had it sent to Corbin but spring was fast approaching and I wanted a back-up. I had met Dave Hull and his wife at a rally in Colorado that year and remembered he had a SE racer. I called and bought the red seat which I still have as a spare. I don't know for sure but depending on how many SE's went through his shop it might have been from the one you ended up with. Small world for  sure. The replacement did arrive in time from Corbin's done perfectly this time.
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #1
1973 XLCH cafe Shovester #2
1971 Homemade cafe '08 XB12S motor 71 CH frame
2002 Buell M2 Cyclone
1987 LMIV SE 1400 conversion in progress

 

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