Author Topic: Lario rehab project begins. What we've learned..  (Read 199921 times)

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Lario rehab project begins. What we've learned..
« on: November 26, 2012, 05:56:48 PM »
*Note* I've inquiries about pictures on this thread. Google "Photobucket fix" and you will find an add on for Chrome and Firefox browsers. Add that to your browser, and all will be revealed. :)


I've caught up with my other project, and am starting a new Winter project. If anyone is interested, I'll add to this thread as it develops..
The story:
First, the cheapest bike you can buy is the best there is available. Someone else has already done the grunt work and spent the money. This one wasn't it.  ;D It was a pretty sorry looking thing, but I wanted a Lario, and it was available. Geeseman kindly offered to pick it up and bring it to the Nationals last summer. Here is the before picture..
 
 I did a quicky going through it to make it reliable enough to take on our Western trip.. new rear shocks, brake pads, headlight relay, changed out the brake fluid, serviced, etc. and blasted off on a *great* trip, doing most of my "bucket list" roads.
[img=https://photoruckus.s3.amazonaws.com/Lario%2F87GUZZILARIORF.jpg]http://
Now, we're talkin! Running very well indeed. It's obviously a keeper, so it's time to at least make it look presentable, and fix some little niggles.
 
First, I made a fitting to hook up to my leak down tester so I could find out basically what condition the engine is in.
A little lathe work, some silver soldering, and
[img=https://photoruckus.s3.amazonaws.com/Lario%2F005-9.jpg]http://Painted it, because rust never sleeps, and will do the leak down test tomorrow.
Gave it a look at stuff that might need to be done..
looks like one of the first things will be to replace the big seal on the rear drive.

More tomorrow after the leak down and a little more inspection..
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 08:51:34 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline mwrenn

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 09:42:29 PM »
How cool.  Thanks for posting.  It will be interesting to watch your progress!

Offline guzzi4cats

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 09:50:13 AM »
That's right. Reading about your rebuild might just inspire me to begin work on my Lario!

Offline Carlo DeSantis

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 10:15:41 AM »
I look forward to following your progress, Chuck.

History tells me you're going to crank out another winner!

Carlo
Chuck in Illinois
Crystal Lake, IL USA

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 10:15:41 AM »

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 10:33:48 AM »
Lario's get all the love these days!  ;-T Fun to watch and learn.
-K
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 10:49:59 AM »
I look forward to following your progress, Chuck.

History tells me you're going to crank out another winner!

Carlo

Thanks, Carlo, but this one is too far gone for a complete restoration. I'd have *way* more money in it than it would ever be worth, and after all.. I'm one of those cheap small block guys that Charlie mentioned.. ;D ;D I'm just trying to get it in good mechanical order and presentable.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 11:33:49 AM »
Looks like I blew a seal.. :o ;D No..I can assure you that's just vanilla ice cream.

While the paint was drying I pulled the body work off and looked at stuff..

Beer oclock, headed in for the day.
Paint's dry this morning, time to find out what we have..

Hooked up the leak down tester on the S side.. 76/80.  ;-T

Uh oh.

Lots of air blowing through the carb.. leaking intake valve (s). Nothing from the breather on either side, though, so the rings are ok. Sometimes, it's just carbon on a valve seat, and hooking up the tester, blowing air through it, and smiting  :o the valve a few times will clear it up. No joy.

Ok, we're going in.. ;D Liberally squirting AeroQroil on every fastener the other day pays dividends. Rusty stuff coming right off..

Fortunately, I have a set of new valves from Iceblue, and lash caps from a machine shop in California.. this should be a no brainer.. I thought.

I've always said that if you go looking for problems on an old machine you will find them.  ~; One of the nuts that holds the head on stripped, and after a *lot* of very careful levering and use of an impact gun, managed to get it to lock on the stud and I could back the stud out. I'd like to have that hour back.  ;) Oh well, it's not as bad as I first thought when I first started to take it off.. "OH NO! The freakin case is stripped.."  ;D It wasn't.
No problemo..

Now, I need to find a valve spring compressor. I don't have anything anywhere nearly this small..
Time for lunch.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:39:36 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 12:13:59 PM »
Love your writeup and pics Chuck - keep us updated!! ;-T ;-T ;-T

...yeah - the Lario get all the love these days, and they deserve it - great little bike if one know what one is doing  ;)

Keep it comming Chuck :pop
Give the new valves some breakin time, like a couple of Kmiles before you take it up to the redline. They need it. The stems are slightly over sized to compensate for slightly worn valve guides.

Ciao
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 12:40:09 PM »
You know what I said about looking for trouble in an old machine?  ;D

Looks like I need a cylinder. Will just any 650 cylinder work?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2012, 01:18:54 PM »
Seems like this cylinder has lived through a valve drop :o

What's the cylinder/piston grade A, B, C??

Stamped on top of the piston and the top cylinder cooling fin.
Depending on the grade, I may be able to help you out if you don't run into a cylinder with the right grade, or en cyl/piston kit of any grade.
A cylinder from a 2V will do too, just make sure it's the same grade as the piston.

Cheers
Brian
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 01:50:53 PM by IceBlue »
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 01:47:42 PM »
Oh man!!  That will explain the leaking.  What a mess.  Might want to check with Milich about a new cylinder.  He's been selling parts of a beater Lario I believe.  Think your seat came from it maybe?  Good thing you started early on this one.  Wait til you run it with two good cylinders!  :o :o
-Kevin
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 01:55:34 PM »
Oh man!!  That will explain the leaking.  What a mess.  Might want to check with Milich about a new cylinder.  He's been selling parts of a beater Lario I believe.  Think your seat came from it maybe?  Good thing you started early on this one.  Wait til you run it with two good cylinders!  :o :o
-Kevin

Not really. Compression is good, it's leaking from one or both intake valves. If the dinged up cylinder was the cause of the low reading, you'd hear air coming out of the breather. Nope.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 01:57:31 PM »
Seems like this cylinder has lived through a valve drop :o

What's the cylinder/piston grade A, B, C??

Stamped on top of the piston and the top cylinder cooling fin.
Depending on the grade, I may be able to help you out if you don't run into a cylinder with the right grade, or en cyl/piston kit of any grade.
A cylinder from a 2V will do too, just make sure it's the same grade as the piston.

Cheers
Brian

Ok. What's the ABC, bore diameter?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2012, 02:19:01 PM »
Ok. What's the ABC, bore diameter?

Yes sir :)
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 03:44:46 PM »
Oh man!!  That will explain the leaking.  What a mess.  Might want to check with Milich about a new cylinder.  He's been selling parts of a beater Lario I believe.  Think your seat came from it maybe?  Good thing you started early on this one.  Wait til you run it with two good cylinders!  :o :o
-Kevin

If the pistons are still good, you could always have the cylinders repaired and replated by someone like Millennium Technologies.
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 08:34:27 PM »
Well.. it's getting *expensive* now..  ;D That's 2 quarts of 10-60 full syn going down the drain. Tomorrow should be an interesting day.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline JoeW

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2012, 10:17:22 PM »
Yes sir :)
Guzzi pistons and cylinders are matched sets. The published bore size is one thing but, piston to cylinder clearance is measured in thousanths so, sets are made and denoted by letters a b or c to assure the clearance is within tolerance.

Chuck, I have an nos clutch, some intake boots and I think some con rod bolts from a purchase I made several years ago. If those items come up on your parts list let me know. Ill make you a good deal on them.
Joe Walano

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2012, 06:19:40 AM »
Guzzi pistons and cylinders are matched sets. The published bore size is one thing but, piston to cylinder clearance is measured in thousanths so, sets are made and denoted by letters a b or c to assure the clearance is within tolerance.

Chuck, I have an nos clutch, some intake boots and I think some con rod bolts from a purchase I made several years ago. If those items come up on your parts list let me know. Ill make you a good deal on them.

Thanks, Joe.. I put new intake boots on it before the trip. I *hope* I'm not needing those con rod bolts.  ;D
I don't know where to get small block stuff like rings, gaskets, etc. Anyone?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2012, 07:26:02 AM »
Check this place Chuck
http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?q=piston+rings&f=d&Model=14

I have bought rings here - although in the UK...
Fair price.

Check your cylinder/piston sets - if it's Gillardoni's you have, you will need rings that match these kits. They are not the same as OEM's, but from what I can spot on the pic's you have OEM's.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 07:29:41 AM by IceBlue »
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2012, 10:29:35 AM »
Check this place Chuck
http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?q=piston+rings&f=d&Model=14

I have bought rings here - although in the UK...
Fair price.

Check your cylinder/piston sets - if it's Gillardoni's you have, you will need rings that match these kits. They are not the same as OEM's, but from what I can spot on the pic's you have OEM's.

Good luck!

Looks like standard stuff, stamped C. Looked up the dimensions in the manual, and I'm amazed at the tolerances of the 3 different sets. 3 ten thousandths of an inch??  :o I'll bet Luigi's ruler doesn't measure that closely. ;D What do they think this is, a turbine?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2012, 11:18:20 AM »
Looks like standard stuff, stamped C. Looked up the dimensions in the manual, and I'm amazed at the tolerances of the 3 different sets. 3 ten thousandths of an inch??  :o I'll bet Luigi's ruler doesn't measure that closely. ;D What do they think this is, a turbine?

 ;D Yeah snazzy little bugger - C is the biggest bore - same as mine.
...unfortunately I only have a couple of A's with no pistons.

I do have a 2 C's including pistons.
Best to get them in the US, due to postage, but if you have a problem finding a C cylinder or piston/cylinder set, let me know.
Replating is in most cases far more expensive than a good used kit. I assume you have C's at both sides, if not, I'd get a matging kit to replace the dinged up cylinder with matching piston, so you have identical grades at both sides, but that's just me.

Martin Hagemann may be able to help too - he's the Lario guro in the EU.  http://www.guzziepiushop.de/shop/

Cheers
Brian
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2012, 11:21:21 AM »
Day 3, a good morning.
Pulled the cylinder and had a look at the piston. Pretty good shape with very little scuffing. The wrist pin fits well, and also fits the con rod small end well.  ;-T

While I was doing that, I pulled the level plug on the rear drive to make sure that no kidding it is the big seal on the rear drive, and not the rear seal on the transmission filling up the rear drive to make it leak. No problem, just the rear drive seal, an easy fix..
Went ahead and drained it.

Here was the big worry. If the cam is toast, as far as I'm concerned, this bike would be relegated to "parts bike" status, and I would be done before I get started. ;D Looks ok, at least I've seen much worse. It's the late one with 14 mm lobes and no spalling. Woo hoo!

The timing case gasket is leaking, so might as well start getting to it. Marked the Dyna with Die blue and a scribe so I can go back to where I timed it..

To remove the alternator rotor, Guzziology sez to either buy (crazy talk)  ;) the tool, or make one 5mm diameter and 2" long. From a past life as a mold maker, I have hardened ejector pins, and I cut one off with a die grinder, taking care to not let it get hot. If you do that, the temper will be gone on that end, it will mushroom, and your life will suddenly take a turn for the worse.  ;D Popped right off, but I was just beginning to get worried..

 Now, we can get to that pesky gasket..

Think I'll take a break, now that I know (sort of) where I'm headed with it..
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 01:21:31 PM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2012, 11:41:02 AM »
;D Yeah snazzy little bugger - C is the biggest bore - same as mine.
...unfortunately I only have a couple of A's with no pistons.

I do have a 2 C's including pistons.
Best to get them in the US, due to postage, but if you have a problem finding a C cylinder or piston/cylinder set, let me know.
Replating is in most cases far more expensive than a good used kit. I assume you have C's at both sides, if not, I'd get a matging kit to replace the dinged up cylinder with matching piston, so you have identical grades at both sides, but that's just me.

Martin Hagemann may be able to help too - he's the Lario guro in the EU.  http://www.guzziepiushop.de/shop/

Cheers
Brian
Eeks! I'm a 'Merican.  ;D I did run a German duplicating milling machine one time, and taught myself just enough German to run it, but...Merican's only know one language, and don't know that one very well.. :D

Doing the metric to 'Merican conversion on the cylinder size.. the largest A cylinder is 3.1498", and the smallest C cylinder is 3.1500. I have a *really* hard time thinking it makes a nickles worth of difference. I would think that by the time a hone is ran through an A cylinder just to clean it up, it would be a C..or bigger.. <shrug> or, do you not clean them up?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 11:52:39 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2012, 11:53:18 AM »
Replating is in most cases far more expensive than a good used kit.

"Good used" is oft times false economy. At around $209 per bore, I don't feel that replating is that expensive and I'm "frugal". A nice, fresh bore to start with is a good thing IMO. Do it right the first time. 
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 V700
'69 Ambassador
'71 Ambassador
'73 Eldorado
'74 850-T
'76 Convert
'77 Morini 3 1/2 Strada
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2012, 11:54:53 AM »
"Good used" is oft times false economy. At around $209 per bore, I don't feel that replating is that expensive and I'm "frugal". A nice, fresh bore to start with is a good thing IMO. Do it right the first time. 

I won't argue that, Charlie.. but then where do I get the rings for it?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2012, 12:09:25 PM »
I won't argue that, Charlie.. but then where do I get the rings for it?

As I posted earlier on the Small-block Guzzi Group, Deves sells ring sets for Larios (and many other Guzzis): http://www.deves.com/devesrings/cycles_MOTO_GUZZI.php . Part no. MC-130. Harper's sells them too. They're the correct material to work with all Nikasil type platings according to the tech guy I spoke with there.

MG Cycles lists all of the gaskets, so no problem there. Most likely Harper's has them as well.
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 V700
'69 Ambassador
'71 Ambassador
'73 Eldorado
'74 850-T
'76 Convert
'77 Morini 3 1/2 Strada
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2012, 12:21:03 PM »
"Good used" is oft times false economy. At around $209 per bore, I don't feel that replating is that expensive and I'm "frugal". A nice, fresh bore to start with is a good thing IMO. Do it right the first time. 

At that price I agree - that's not the going price here - at least double...
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2012, 12:32:23 PM »
Eeks! I'm a 'Merican.  ;D I did run a German duplicating milling machine one time, and taught myself just enough German to run it, but...Merican's only know one language, and don't know that one very well.. :D

Doing the metric to 'Merican conversion on the cylinder size.. the largest A cylinder is 3.1498", and the smallest C cylinder is 3.1500. I have a *really* hard time thinking it makes a nickles worth of difference. I would think that by the time a hone is ran through an A cylinder just to clean it up, it would be a C..or bigger.. <shrug> or, do you not clean them up?


I just would not use a second hand cylinder if I could not still see the hone "tracks" - in many cases you can - I'm sure you can hone an A up to a C, or if you replate - it should be possible to hit 3.1500 again and your piston would go for another run with new rings. That would indeed be the best way to go.
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2012, 02:48:56 PM »
As I posted earlier on the Small-block Guzzi Group, Deves sells ring sets for Larios (and many other Guzzis): http://www.deves.com/devesrings/cycles_MOTO_GUZZI.php . Part no. MC-130. Harper's sells them too. They're the correct material to work with all Nikasil type platings according to the tech guy I spoke with there.

MG Cycles lists all of the gaskets, so no problem there. Most likely Harper's has them as well.

Thanks, Charlie.. I never got that post on my email. When I try to open the Yahoo site, I get a !Problem loading page error.
Rings are really all I've been worried about except for the cylinder hold down stud 96 51 02 03 and nut 92 66 00 10.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2012, 11:52:22 PM »
Eeks! I'm a 'Merican.  ;D I did run a German duplicating milling machine one time, and taught myself just enough German to run it, but...Merican's only know one language, and don't know that one very well.. :D


NP Chuck - you guys invented Google Translate to fix that ;D - it will do it all in secs.  ;-T
I only know Danish and English, so I use it when I need to talk to Luigi and Fritz occationally the flying Dutchman too  ;D

Ciao
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

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