Author Topic: Lario rehab project begins. What we've learned..  (Read 199919 times)

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2012, 12:43:40 AM »
Thanks, Charlie.. I never got that post on my email. When I try to open the Yahoo site, I get a !Problem loading page error.
Rings are really all I've been worried about except for the cylinder hold down stud 96 51 02 03 and nut 92 66 00 10.


Chuck
I case you cannot get this I have studs from my old crank case where the thread was stripped in the case - including bolts  :-\  Just PM me your address. From the part number is seems like it's the short 10mm stud.

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Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2012, 12:19:53 AM »
Chuck
I'm really sorry to tell you this, but the cam look suspiciously like a 12mm lobe version. Have you actually measured it?
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
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Offline balvenie

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2012, 03:11:46 AM »
          This is exciting stuff ;-T
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2012, 07:11:57 AM »
Chuck
I'm really sorry to tell you this, but the cam look suspiciously like a 12mm lobe version. Have you actually measured it?


Yeah, 14mm. You really know how to make a guy sweat, since Metric isn't my native language.. ;D so I ran out and measured again.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:32:52 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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87 AeroLario
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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2012, 07:11:57 AM »

Offline IceBlue

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2012, 07:30:43 AM »
Ok -  sorry Chuck  ;D :D then you are good   ;-T

Here're the two compared. The 12mm is the uppper shaft in the pic. The spacing between the lobes nomally gives away the cam version, when one see a picture of either one.



The 14mm cam shaft

« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:42:36 AM by IceBlue »
Copenhagen Denmark - http://www.facebook.com/motoguzzilario

750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2012, 11:01:10 AM »
Well, let's see what we have.. a quicky valve spring compressor made out of some free machining canvas bakelite I had laying around.

All the valve guides are in spec. The largest is at the high limit of new.

Just for grins, I thought I'd check the length of the old valves to see if any had stretched. They were remarkably consistent, only one being .002" longer.

I could probably just have lapped in the leaking intakes on the dis side cylinder and forgot about it.  ;D Now, I'm fixing something that ain't broke.. ;) well.. that cylinder *is* pretty beat up. I sent it out to be welded and replated yesterday.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

geeseman

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2012, 12:42:51 PM »
Geez Chuck I am starting to feel guilty about picking it up and bringing it to you. :-[

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2012, 01:55:47 PM »
Geez Chuck I am starting to feel guilty about picking it up and bringing it to you. :-[

Dan, as SuperChicken used to say, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."  ;D I knew it was a beater, and I've already had a *really* good time with it on the trip out west. This rehab project is fun, too.. and won't be terribly expensive. I'll have more in it than it's worth, but I wanted one, and they don't grow on trees.<shrug> Naturally, one that had been gone through showed up.. cheap.. after I bought this one, ;D ;D but I'd been looking for a long time. I appreciate what you did.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2012, 02:06:37 PM »
Ok, back to work. Let's see if the new valves will lap in. A little dab will do ya, as the old BrylCream ad used to go..

Valve lapping compound is very coarse, and you can feel it breaking down as you push and rotate the valve. Less than a minute of this, and it will feel pretty smooth as the valve turns.

A little hard to see in this picture, but it looks pretty good.

All of them lapped in, everything cleaned up, and I like to put a little Marvel Mystery oil on the valve stem. <shrug> What can it hurt?  ;D

I think I just heard the afternoon break whistle. I'll put em back together after break....
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline balvenie

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2012, 04:40:11 PM »
 ;-T ;-T
Oz
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2012, 11:13:02 AM »
Ok, back at it. Putting the heads together using the Ancient Airlines High Tech  ::) Lario Head Assembly Bench. (tm)

This is the fiddly type of job that I'm not good at, involving little bitty pieces and a spring.. ;D but with some care and about an hour's time, they are back together.

Bagged and waiting for assembly.

Might as well have a look at that rear drive leak while waiting for parts.
Now, for you big block guys (I'm one, too, of course) Tonti designed the Lario, too. It looks very much like a miniature LeMans, but this is a later design and he'd learned something. See how easy it is to pull the rear wheel? Brakes stay in place and everything. Just pull the axle, and the wheel comes off. ;-T

Hmmm. Not much of a leak. If it was an antique airplane that had been sitting around a lot I'd just fly it and watch it. Many times the seal will quit leaking after regular use.

The thing is, though, it didn't leak at first and started leaking the more I rode it. Decided to open it up, and the bolts that hold all the goodies to the casting were just finger tight.  ::) :o No wonder it's leaking. I could probably just torque them down and that would fix the leak. I'll go in to lunch and think about that a while..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2012, 11:47:58 AM »
After thinking about it a while, I think I'll just torque them down. I'm guessing the last guy in there just forgot. I know.. it's a pretty basic thing, but to err *is* human. That's why I couldn't be a doctor.  ;D Apparently, all the parts are in it  :BEER: it's working and not making noise. I've been in a small block rear drive before, and this is what we would see when taking those bolts loose. That paper gasket is either torn or it's not. I'm betting it's not.

So, I'm just going to torque it down, and find something better to worry about.  ;D

Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
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79 G5
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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline ccoli

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2012, 11:55:18 AM »
I think there was some issue with those bolts.....Not hard enough??? Check Guzziology.
Believe Dave R also recommended using Schnoor washers on em.
Youv'e almost got me inspired to go out in the garage and work on something, but maybe not....Keep trying.
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2012, 12:14:24 PM »
I think there was some issue with those bolts.....Not hard enough??? Check Guzziology.
Believe Dave R also recommended using Schnoor washers on em.
Youv'e almost got me inspired to go out in the garage and work on something, but maybe not....Keep trying.
These are the bolts you're thinking about. You have to ditch the plates under them, and put Schnoor washers on them on the early rear drives.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 12:18:01 PM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2012, 02:28:37 PM »
I'm guessing you're going to do that along with the extra oil passage for the bearing at a different time?  Love the write-up btw. 
-Kevin
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2012, 02:40:32 PM »
I'm guessing you're going to do that along with the extra oil passage for the bearing at a different time?  Love the write-up btw.  
-Kevin

Thanks, Kevin.. I *think* that by 87 the oil passage upgrade had been done. Dunno for sure, need to do a little research. At any rate, for the few thousand miles I'll be riding it (being realistic here) it's not an issue to me whether it has or not.  ;D
edit: looked it up, and the 87s have the updated rear drive.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 04:02:20 PM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline balvenie

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2012, 04:50:09 PM »
Love this story ;-T
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Offline Stormtruck2

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2012, 05:27:15 PM »
Love this write up and the info imparted.  I envy your skills and talent Chuck.  Kevin, almost regret not trying to talk you out of the little Lario of your when I was there.  :D  Looking forward to getting well enough to get started on the Eldo. Keep up the good work and the write ups Chuck.  ;-T
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2012, 10:58:48 PM »
Thanks, Kevin.. I *think* that by 87 the oil passage upgrade had been done. Dunno for sure, need to do a little research. At any rate, for the few thousand miles I'll be riding it (being realistic here) it's not an issue to me whether it has or not.  ;D
edit: looked it up, and the 87s have the updated rear drive.

That I didn't know!  Well... Now I do. Thank you Chuck. My Guzziogy didn't mention it and when I bought a new "used" rear drive from Martin he said he did the Shnoors on it. Must have been a '96 maybe.
Cool!
Kevin
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2012, 05:40:02 AM »
Love this write up and the info imparted.  I envy your skills and talent Chuck.  Kevin, almost regret not trying to talk you out of the little Lario of your when I was there.  :D  Looking forward to getting well enough to get started on the Eldo. Keep up the good work and the write ups Chuck.  ;-T

Thanks, Matt.. but there are *many* on WG that are much more qualified to do tech stuff on a Guzzi than me. I just thought it would be fun to show the steps involved in a refurbish. When I first got the V50III, I joined the small block list on Yahoo, and looked for info like this and really couldn't find much. I did a thing on updating the rear drive, but it's not as picture friendly as WG, so thought I'd do this here.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Online Matteo

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2012, 11:09:34 AM »
Thanks, Matt.. but there are *many* on WG that are much more qualified to do tech stuff on a Guzzi than me. I just thought it would be fun to show the steps involved in a refurbish. When I first got the V50III, I joined the small block list on Yahoo, and looked for info like this and really couldn't find much. I did a thing on updating the rear drive, but it's not as picture friendly as WG, so thought I'd do this here.

Glad you did it here Chuck. Much easier to follow.
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2012, 11:25:05 AM »
Fresh from the west coast, an OEM windshield. Cheep.  ;) The Lario's first piece of bling. It'll replace the broken original, and if I don't like the longer length with kick up, I'll just saw the extra off.

Shortly, I'll show you how simple it is to get the "propulsor unit" I think Ducati called it back in the day ;D out of the frame in the small block. To facilitate that, you just have to unhook anything that goes to the engine/transmission/rear drive. Takes about 10 minutes.





We'll address the issue of the small block transmission breather, too. Can't have it spewing nasty stuff all over our fresh paint.. ;D

But first... let's see about that weep from the timing case. Yep, the gasket was split at the middle bottom bolt hole, and maybe is the culprit.

I mentioned that the small block is a later design than the big block, and the Guzzi engineers learned something else. The timing chain tensioner is a much more elegant design than the big block version.

Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2012, 01:03:48 PM »
That's great to see Chuck.  How many bolts hold that engine in?  I see a couple there, plus one in the lower frame rail I know about.  Hmmm....
Looking forward to the crab.
-Kevin
p.s.  Didn't know you were going to paint her up a bit.  Cool! 
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2012, 03:20:38 PM »
That's great to see Chuck.  How many bolts hold that engine in?  I see a couple there, plus one in the lower frame rail I know about.  Hmmm....
Looking forward to the crab.
-Kevin
p.s.  Didn't know you were going to paint her up a bit.  Cool! 

Actually, it's a wheelbarrow rather than a crab..  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Morizzi

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2012, 04:00:38 PM »
You can actually crab the frame on a small block Chuck, but it is almost pointless. Getting the gearbox out is tight and a bit of a jiggle but it can be done. The way the frame tubes overlap at the front means that there is only limited rotation. All you save is 2 bolts, that you have had to loosen anyway, front left caliper and if a Dyna S is fitted then you don't have to detatch that.

You should remove a Dyna S every so often to lube the advance mechanism so again, not much of a saving but it can be done, just.  ::)

I had to remove the box out of the Monza recently when it started to make a strange intermittent whiny noise. The small block gearbox is more 'elegant' than the same era big block unit too. There are wave washers on the shafts to cushion the sliding dogs and one of these had broken. Hard to see wedged in between the dogs and retaining clips. I only knew there was a problem as I always strain the oil to see if there is any debris in there and the 2 halves of a wave washer were sitting there. Got a washer and a few spares and no more noise.  ;-T I talked to the local Guzzi guy and he told me he has never had to replace one so maybe I went overboard with the spares.  :D The bearings are standard sizes. I only needed to replace one.  

If you are goint to replace the clutch then I've been told the Renault 4/5 unit is a solid plate and less likely to fracture. The only issue is the spline hub is not even in the plate and a little machining is needed. I've seen you workshop so that would be no problem.  ;D I'd double check the spline count and diameter too.

The engine has improvements too. The engine casing forms a web that prevents windage issues from the crank and if you do a quick calculation you will see the height of the oil over the strainer is about the same as a big block Tonti with a spacer and better than an earlier one without.
 
Glad you are enjoying youself.  :BEER:

Rod

« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 04:06:17 PM by Morizzi »

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2012, 04:35:08 PM »
Actually, it's a wheelbarrow rather than a crab..  ;D
Yes... a better analogy. 
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2012, 07:59:30 PM »
Thanks for that info, Rod.. I'm not planning on "fixing something that ain't broke"  ;D yet, but I'll file this away.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2012, 10:21:26 AM »
Ok, lets fix the transmission breather. The cap is just staked on, and easily removed with some prying.


Rummaging through my "good junk" fittings area finds this hose barb.

Turning it down to an .002" press fit so I don't have to get out the torch and silver solder it together.  ;D

High tech assembly press..

Just be aware that the breather and proper crush washer are needed to put the correct preload on the shift detent ball and spring..

Now, all we need to do is attach some 1/4" fuel hose, run it vertically, and put a u in it so the transmission can still breath but not puke oil all over. It took longer to tell about it than to do it.. ;D
Uh oh.. looks like a trip to Earls, in Gasoline alley in Indy is in order. They made up a rear brake line for Rosie for 20 some bux..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2012, 03:08:55 PM »
You remember what I said about looking for trouble on an old machine?  ;D Found some more. I started to vacuum the fluid out of the calipers and lines, and there wasn't anything coming out of the front left caliper. Cleaned out the rust on the bleeder with a welding tip cleaner. No doubt.. all the calipers will have to come apart. I'm amazed that brake systems keep working with obviously *no* maintenance.

yuck

Kevin.. this is for you. I remember you asking how to get to the indicator bulbs in the dash. There are 2 bolts on the triple tree.. just loosen them, no need to take them out, and the dash mounts on two slotted pieces. Push it forward, and it comes off.

Take out the two screws on the back of the unit, unscrew the odometer reset knob, and the back will come off with just a little finessing. Sorry, I took a picture and it was too fuzzy to use. You can see the framework that you take loose in this picture to get to the indicator bulbs. (the knurled nuts.)

Alrighty now, gaskets came in this afternoon. I hate to do this, but the timing case gasket didn't want to stay where it needed to be. Sprayed some high tack on one side, and let it set a few minutes. Makes it nice and tacky, and you can align all those bolt holes without fear. How 'bout dem Colts!  ;D

That's all for today. Off to Indy tomorrow to get some brake lines made up.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Lario rehab project begins
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2012, 05:48:46 PM »
Thank you Chuck for that. This is such great stuff for us to see. Will have my buddy turn something down on his lathe for my new Lario if need be. Good to see what's there.
Kevin
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

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