Author Topic: V7 Classic with Lario heads  (Read 111231 times)

Offline mwrenn

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V7 Classic with Lario heads
« on: December 14, 2012, 03:52:22 PM »
Well, I've already modified my V7C quite a bit from the stock setup.  Some of the mods include a LeMans metal tankwith external fuel pump, filter, and regulator. K&N pod filters, Norton peashooter exhaust, Stucchi fairing, stainless steel fenders, and a Power Commander V with Autotune and a ECU flash by Todd at Guzzitech.  This bike runs great, but I'm always wanting to mess with something else, so i've decided to fit some four valve heads an see how it runs with a modern fuel injection setup.  The main reason for my post is a request for information.  I have read a lot about the Larioo heads, and the different valve/spring/cap/ and shim that people have used.  I would like to use the updated Moto Guzzi valves, which i have the part number for, but I dont know which springs would work best.  Just looking for input from those on the board who have experience with the Lario heads.  Thanks in advance!

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 05:17:15 PM »
According to Iceblue.. the Nevada valve springs are the hot setup. There are some kind of progressive springs on my Lario heads, I'm going with them.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline leafman60

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 05:28:50 PM »
Why in the world didn't Guzzi develop a new set of 4-valve heads for the V7 series when they did this latest upgrade?  Oh, we've already been through all of that ....

Offline Tazturtle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 05:38:19 PM »
It will be fascinating to watch your latest project develop.

I stopped in at a fellow Italian Motorcycle Club member's house two weeks ago. He has a lovely V35 Imola that is currently fitted with a V50 motor. On the bench was a beautifully restored V65 Lario motor that is destined for the Imola! He is running Suzuki GN250 valves & springs.

Kurt
2012 1200 Sport 8V Corsa SE
2011 V7 Racer #749 (RIP)

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"The Guzzi 750 is what BMW airheads used to be.  Simple, direct machines for riders who enjoy the Zen of engines" Sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 05:38:19 PM »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 07:04:13 PM »
Yes, found some heads listed at Teo Lamers, got them ordered, should be here after Christmas.  Man Carl, it's so cool you got a Racer!  What a bike!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 07:08:37 PM »
So Suzuki GN250 Valves and springs.  I'm going to see about some part numbers..The replacement Guzzi valves were supposed to be ok, but Im not sure about availability...

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 07:16:01 PM »
Ok, so the Nevada springs are the single spring set up? Part # 2703 7521?  Then the lower and upper collars are 3103 7015 and 3103 8015?
Correction, the spring changes to a part #61037500
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 08:31:10 PM by mwrenn »

Chas H

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 07:21:48 PM »
Interesting upgrade.
Is the camshaft still appropriate for a switch to 4 valves?

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2012, 07:32:31 PM »
Well, I've already modified my V7C quite a bit from the stock setup.  Some of the mods include a LeMans metal tankwith external fuel pump, filter, and regulator. K&N pod filters, Norton peashooter exhaust, Stucchi fairing, stainless steel fenders, and a Power Commander V with Autotune and a ECU flash by Todd at Guzzitech.  This bike runs great, but I'm always wanting to mess with something else, so i've decided to fit some four valve heads an see how it runs with a modern fuel injection setup.  The main reason for my post is a request for information.  I have read a lot about the Larioo heads, and the different valve/spring/cap/ and shim that people have used.  I would like to use the updated Moto Guzzi valves, which i have the part number for, but I dont know which springs would work best.  Just looking for input from those on the board who have experience with the Lario heads.  Thanks in advance!
do you have pix?
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2012, 08:13:43 PM »
Interesting upgrade.
Is the camshaft still appropriate for a switch to 4 valves?
Good question.  I do not know the lobe dimensions of the current cam.  I'm hoping they are 14mm.  If not, I plan to source the cam and lifters from Ed Milich at GuzziPower.  I am happy with the lift and duration right now, I want the bike to stay streetable with a broad power band.  I am assuming the newer cams are hard enough, and I plan on lighter valve springs too.  I do not plan on revving the bike way up, say 7500 max, so hopefully the valves wont float...

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2012, 08:16:16 PM »
do you have pix?
Yes, I had some earlier threads on here, I will see if I can find one of the threads and link it...
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=52223.0
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 08:28:19 PM by mwrenn »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2012, 08:59:33 PM »
It will be fascinating to watch your latest project develop.

I stopped in at a fellow Italian Motorcycle Club member's house two weeks ago. He has a lovely V35 Imola that is currently fitted with a V50 motor. On the bench was a beautifully restored V65 Lario motor that is destined for the Imola! He is running Suzuki GN250 valves & springs.

Kurt

Found this from 2008...

   
Re: Advice on Lario valve/spring isues (with more pics)
Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 08:28:24 AM
Reply
Quote
All parts now on hand.

Will post pics when I start rebuilding in a week or two.

Can't wait to get this thing going again.  Well, going for the first time for me...

Cost of parts to date:

8 valve springs - suzuki $65  p/n 12921-38211

16 spring seats - suzuki  $100 p/n 12933-38200

16 valve collets - genuine $160

8 valves - genuine $360



Trevor G
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 09:06:26 PM by mwrenn »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2012, 09:02:24 PM »
It was too purty to pass up. The functional difference are the engine characteristics. Jury is out on that one. Better around town, top end comparison is an unknown at this point.
Well, that bike is easy on the eyes for sure!  Seems like Guzzi did exactly what was needed!

Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2012, 09:40:51 PM »
mwrenn, I'm interested in your mods.  Like you, I like to work on my V7 as well.

Are you going to do a dyno run?
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Offline Tazturtle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2012, 09:56:48 PM »
Have you sourced the flat top pistons yet?

 :+1 on the dyno runs before and after!
2012 1200 Sport 8V Corsa SE
2011 V7 Racer #749 (RIP)

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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2012, 10:24:12 PM »
mwrenn, I'm interested in your mods.  Like you, I like to work on my V7 as well.

Are you going to do a dyno run?
Yes, planning on a dyno run, before and after.  Kinetic playground in Tulsa has a Dyno, I will use them.  How's your V7 running with the Gilardoni cylinder kit? 

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2012, 10:35:42 PM »
Have you sourced the flat top pistons yet?

 :+1 on the dyno runs before and after!

I have not sourced any pistons yet.  To be quite frank, I was not 100% sure I would have to change them. Although to keep close to the stock compression ratio, I will have to do something.  Harpers has a Lario big bore kit listed on their website.  The piston diameter is listed at 84mm.  The stock V7C bore is 80mm.  I was considering this kit, called them this morning, and they said it was a 720cc kit for the Lario.  I must admit to being a bit confused, with the larger bore being a 720.  I was pretty sure the stroke on the Lario and the V7C were the same...Guess I have some more research to do.   ;-T

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 10:47:16 PM »
Your tastes for customization run parallel to mine.  Any chance you could post or email pics of your bike and LeMans tank fitment ?  What LeMans tank did you fit; an original or a steel copy from MG Cycle ?

I am very interested in getting rid of the nylon tank for steel.

Any info, pictures, contacxts, sharing experience of the fitment would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Steve Swan  970.443.2432, mountain std.time

sandcast232@yahoo.com

Offline Muzz

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 10:53:30 PM »
It will be fascinating to watch your latest project develop.

 He is running Suzuki GN250 valves & springs.

Kurt


Thats what was in my head. I think Brian (Iceblue) was muttering about Nissan valves of some sort.
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2012, 11:36:59 PM »
Your tastes for customization run parallel to mine.  Any chance you could post or email pics of your bike and LeMans tank fitment ?  What LeMans tank did you fit; an original or a steel copy from MG Cycle ?

I am very interested in getting rid of the nylon tank for steel.

Any info, pictures, contacxts, sharing experience of the fitment would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Steve Swan  970.443.2432, mountain std.time

Hey Steve!  I bought those Norton peashooters on ebay from you..lol  Anyway, here is a thread link with some pictures..http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=52223.0  I'll email you the conversion details for the tank, etc...a lot of work, but worth it!  Cheers.
Oh yes, it was a steel tank from MG cycles.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 11:41:20 PM by mwrenn »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2012, 11:50:15 PM »
Thats what was in my head. I think Brian (Iceblue) was muttering about Nissan valves of some sort.

Hmmm..Nissan valves?  Interesting.  I did some searching and found the MotoGuzzi intake and exhaust valves available.  They are 27 mm intakes and 24 mm exhausts,  average about $35 each.  The Nevada progressive springs and spring seats are available too, that is if I'm looking at the right part number.  I would prefer to use the factory parts if I can get them.

Offline Muzz

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2012, 02:22:46 AM »
With the original Lario valves there was something about them being a two piece, and they were prone to fracture at the join.

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2012, 02:56:54 AM »
With the original Lario valves there was something about them being a two piece, and they were prone to fracture at the join.

That is quite a common practise. The cost can be reduced as the whole valve doesn't need to be of the same hardened material as the head but the stem can be a material that dissipates and transfers heat better through the valve guides. It can be a win-win.

Everything I've compiled on the 4 valve isses is down at the bottom of the article.

http://guzzista.wetpaint.com/page/Older+Small+Block+Issues%3F

I've posted the link to it before. Its there to be used as a resource.

Rod

Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2012, 08:03:41 AM »
Yes, planning on a dyno run, before and after.  Kinetic playground in Tulsa has a Dyno, I will use them.  How's your V7 running with the Gilardoni cylinder kit? 

I have to adjust the fueling, as the big bore kit is too lean with the factory map.  However the fueling is taking a backseat, as now I am struggling with left cylinder running much too hot.  Right one is normal, approx. 300F (150C).  The left cyl is always a little warmer, but at highway speeds it can get very hot, approaching 500F (260C).

I knew the left cyl was hot, but I didn't realize the extent until I fitted a pair of cylinder head temp gauges.  Now I see it's dangerously hot, and I've got to deal with that. 
No intake leaks.  I had the fuel injectors cleaned + tested, so they are good.

Any ideas?

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65 Gilera 106
69 Benelli 350

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2012, 10:12:32 AM »
I have to adjust the fueling, as the big bore kit is too lean with the factory map.  However the fueling is taking a backseat, as now I am struggling with left cylinder running much too hot.  Right one is normal, approx. 300F (150C).  The left cyl is always a little warmer, but at highway speeds it can get very hot, approaching 500F (260C).

I knew the left cyl was hot, but I didn't realize the extent until I fitted a pair of cylinder head temp gauges.  Now I see it's dangerously hot, and I've got to deal with that. 
No intake leaks.  I had the fuel injectors cleaned + tested, so they are good.

Any ideas?



Uh, yeah, 500 degrees is dangerously hot all right. :o It's normally caused by an intake leak, though.. so dunno. Are you sure it isn't pre igniting for what ever reason?
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2012, 10:14:30 AM »
Quote
I have not sourced any pistons yet.  To be quite frank, I was not 100% sure I would have to change them.

The Lario flat tops are clearanced for the valves.. you'd at least have to do that.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
79 G5
95 Skorpion tour
 
I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2012, 11:10:12 AM »
That is quite a common practise. The cost can be reduced as the whole valve doesn't need to be of the same hardened material as the head but the stem can be a material that dissipates and transfers heat better through the valve guides. It can be a win-win.

Everything I've compiled on the 4 valve isses is down at the bottom of the article.

http://guzzista.wetpaint.com/page/Older+Small+Block+Issues%3F

I've posted the link to it before. Its there to be used as a resource.

Rod

Yes, thanks for that, it is a good resource!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2012, 11:33:27 AM »
I have to adjust the fueling, as the big bore kit is too lean with the factory map.  However the fueling is taking a backseat, as now I am struggling with left cylinder running much too hot.  Right one is normal, approx. 300F (150C).  The left cyl is always a little warmer, but at highway speeds it can get very hot, approaching 500F (260C).

I knew the left cyl was hot, but I didn't realize the extent until I fitted a pair of cylinder head temp gauges.  Now I see it's dangerously hot, and I've got to deal with that. 
No intake leaks.  I had the fuel injectors cleaned + tested, so they are good.

Any ideas?


Maybe swap CHT probes side to side.  Make sure the gauge is accurate.  Or double check it with an infrared/laser pointer thermometer.  My thinking is the heat could be from lack of fuel, intake leak, spark timing, or friction.  Or if the piston on that side is a higher compression ratio than the right side.....that would do it.  Sheesh, that's a tough one.  I have a spare ECU from an 07 Breva I can send you.  It made my V7C run better than the factory original one, PM me your address and I'll send it out, might be worth a try...
Your problem brings up an interesting point.  I am working on a turbocharged Lycoming six cylinder engine right now with the same problem.  One cylinder runs 50 degrees F hotter than all the others.  The fueling is correct, no intake leaks, with the turbo it runs at 35in/hg manifold pressure, higher than ambient, timing is good.  The factory calls for a 7.5 to 1 piston to be in there.  When I took the cylinder off for low compression, it had a 8.5 to 1 piston, as did all the other cylinders, from the factory.  When I re-assembled it the first time, I put the correct piston in, and it ran hotter!  With the 7.5 to one piston!  You would think it would be cooler on that cylinder.  Anyway, waiting to hear back from the factory rep at this point...its a mystery...

Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2012, 12:07:38 PM »
Maybe swap CHT probes side to side.  Make sure the gauge is accurate.  Or double check it with an infrared/laser pointer thermometer.  My thinking is the heat could be from lack of fuel, intake leak, spark timing, or friction.  Or if the piston on that side is a higher compression ratio than the right side.....that would do it.  Sheesh, that's a tough one.  I have a spare ECU from an 07 Breva I can send you.  It made my V7C run better than the factory original one, PM me your address and I'll send it out, might be worth a try...
Your problem brings up an interesting point.  I am working on a turbocharged Lycoming six cylinder engine right now with the same problem.  One cylinder runs 50 degrees F hotter than all the others.  The fueling is correct, no intake leaks, with the turbo it runs at 35in/hg manifold pressure, higher than ambient, timing is good.  The factory calls for a 7.5 to 1 piston to be in there.  When I took the cylinder off for low compression, it had a 8.5 to 1 piston, as did all the other cylinders, from the factory.  When I re-assembled it the first time, I put the correct piston in, and it ran hotter!  With the 7.5 to one piston!  You would think it would be cooler on that cylinder.  Anyway, waiting to hear back from the factory rep at this point...its a mystery...

At first I thought it was the gauge too, but the left side (hot side) pipe is much bluer than the rt (cool) side.  So...empirical evidence supports the gauge.  I don't want to be like the lost explorer, who refuses to believe his compass.

My ECU was showing a memory error, so I replaced it with an aftermarket ECU by MyECU, which I recommend heartily.  Hot cyl didn't change.  

Plugs - the right (cool) plug has been dark.  Like it's getting oil, or is too rich.  Unfortunately the plug isn't clearly too rich, or clearly oil fouled.  It's hard to read.  
Left (hot) plug is normal.  Normal.  Which is odd, because I would expect it too look lean.

My theories;
If the cool side (rt) is getting too much fuel, the O2 sensor would start leaning out the mix to both cylinders.  Leaving the other side (hot side) too lean.  
Or, if the cool side is getting oil in the cylinder, it might make the O2 sensor do the same thing; lean out the mix to both cylinders.  Causing the non-oil cylinder to get lean and hot.

My next step is to turn off the O2 sensor (MyECU allows for this) and see if this changes things.  I'm in New England, so I'll attack this in March, when winter abates.  

Chuck, pre-ignition is a good thought.  But with the change of ECUs I feel I eliminated that possibility.  
Wrenn, thanks for the offer of a parts swap.  

To recap:  the hot side usually runs slightly warmer, but on the highway above 4,250 rpm the temp shoots up.  Almost like flipping a switch.  Oddly, the temp often will lessen if I downshift to 4th gear and keep the rpms even higher, but this isn't a sure thing.  So on the highway I usually ride sedately, in 5th at 60-65 mph, which keeps the temp moderate.   While this is going on the cool side cylinder runs normally.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:49:25 PM by sign216 »
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2012, 12:08:58 PM »
The Lario flat tops are clearanced for the valves.. you'd at least have to do that.

Yes, I saw the cutouts on your thread.  Thanks for posting that BTW!  Im digging into some parts books now, trying to determine if the V75 two valve engine ran a different part number piston than the V75 four valve.   If they did, I figure I could try to get some factory pistons from a V75 four valve...
I'm going to get bronze valve guides installed as well.  MotoInternational in Seattle has six in stock.  I've found two more in Germany, so gotta order them.  Thinking about just ordering eight guides from Germany, and new circlips, and having Millenium Technologies install them.  

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