Author Topic: V7 Classic with Lario heads  (Read 111277 times)

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2012, 12:38:00 PM »
This is interesting that someone is going to give this idea a shot.  I have a feeling it is much more complex than a swap of a couple components.  This is the "holy grail" for some owners, so if it works, you have done yourself a service for the community.  Best of luck and keep us posted.  Your rewards are ahead of you if it does!  ;-T
-Kevin
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2012, 01:18:32 PM »
This is interesting that someone is going to give this idea a shot.  I have a feeling it is much more complex than a swap of a couple components.  This is the "holy grail" for some owners, so if it works, you have done yourself a service for the community.  Best of luck and keep us posted.  Your rewards are ahead of you if it does!  ;-T
-Kevin

Thanks!  That is kind of the allure of doing this, exploring new territory.  With all of the recent advances in manufacturing, who knows?  Maybe a company could reproduce four valve small block heads with a 3D printer.  Heck, they are already printing AR15 rifles.  I am really tempted to go whole hog on this, put on a Ed Milich 850 big bore kit, different cam, etc...
But my goal at this point is to see just how stock I can keep everything, and see what difference a four valve head makes on a modern small block.  To get to this point, I have had to change the ECU, and install an autotune and Power Commander.  The nice thing with that swap complete, I can set the air fuel ratio I want with my laptop, based on a wideband O2 sensor, so compensating for the increased airflow through the heads becomes an easy five minute programming change.  I gotta give a big shout out to Todd at Guzzitech for making that possible.  Heck, two years ago it wouldn't have been.  Once the heads are here I will post pictures of the work.  Fun times indeed!

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2012, 01:49:27 PM »
Yes, I saw the cutouts on your thread.  Thanks for posting that BTW!  Im digging into some parts books now, trying to determine if the V75 two valve engine ran a different part number piston than the V75 four valve.   If they did, I figure I could try to get some factory pistons from a V75 four valve...
I'm going to get bronze valve guides installed as well.  MotoInternational in Seattle has six in stock.  I've found two more in Germany, so gotta order them.  Thinking about just ordering eight guides from Germany, and new circlips, and having Millenium Technologies install them.  

Mac Dennis, a Guzzi guru and all around good guy that doesn't post here told me..

Quote
I use Randy Long in Honey Brook, PA.

New guides $15 each, insert, lap, clean, $65 a head.

They come back looking like new. It's hard to beat.

He does a great job of fixing broken cooling fins too.

Mac

In another post, he said Randy can make valves, too. Just a heads up.. if I had needed head work, I'd sure have sent mine to him.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline ed@guzzipower.com

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2012, 04:50:29 PM »
You will, at a minimum, need to make pistons. V75 have 22mm wrist pin, v65 lario are 20mm. The two valve and four valve pistons are completely different designs- the former is Heron head, latter is a pent roof. Using stock pistons will produce an abnormally low compression ratio. ~7:1 or so.

You may be better off starting with a complete lario motor and doing a big bore kit.

Smallblocks are very different animals from big blocks, especially when you start trying to mix and match.


Ed Milich
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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2012, 04:50:29 PM »

goog64

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2012, 04:54:35 PM »
Wow, this is a really cool idea Mike.
I'm looking forward to how it turns out.  ;-T

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2012, 04:56:46 PM »
You will, at a minimum, need to make pistons. V75 have 22mm wrist pin, v65 lario are 20mm. The two valve and four valve pistons are completely different designs- the former is Heron head, latter is a pent roof. Using stock pistons will produce an abnormally low compression ratio. ~7:1 or so.

You may be better off starting with a complete lario motor and doing a big bore kit.

Smallblocks are very different animals from big blocks, especially when you start trying to mix and match.


Ed Milich
Guzzipower.com


Ok, thanks for that.  Looks like I will have to source some pistons.  It will be interesting to see what comes up whilst doing this conversion!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2012, 05:28:37 PM »
Wow, this is a really cool idea Mike.
I'm looking forward to how it turns out.  ;-T

Yes, it will be a fun time.  Thinking about pistons now, or if I should just mill the head or cylinder to get the compression and valve clearance I want. Arias will make me some pistons, just got off the phone with them, but I sure would like to use the stock ones, make it an easier swap.  Guess we will see.

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2012, 06:44:20 PM »
My thoughts, for what it's worth...

Having pistons made or finding correct pistons is the best course of action IMO. I don't know how you would ever be able to use the stock V7C pistons - the dished crown is totally wrong for the 4 valve head. I don't think you could mill the heads or cylinders enough to bring the compression ratio up to where it should be either.

Might be tough to find, but maybe V75 GT pistons? Same 80mm bore and 74mm stroke as the V7C, though I wonder if they have 20mm wrist pins like the Lario. Might be possible to enlarge the hole in the piston to 22mm if there's enough material in the casting.

Lario pistons (80mm also) with custom-made connecting rods (to work with the longer stroke and 20mm pins) might be another possibility.

Just throwing some ideas out there.   
Charlie
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2012, 07:07:45 PM »
My thoughts, for what it's worth...

Having pistons made or finding correct pistons is the best course of action IMO. I don't know how you would ever be able to use the stock V7C pistons - the dished crown is totally wrong for the 4 valve head. I don't think you could mill the heads or cylinders enough to bring the compression ratio up to where it should be either.

Might be tough to find, but maybe V75 GT pistons? Same 80mm bore and 74mm stroke as the V7C, though I wonder if they have 20mm wrist pins like the Lario. Might be possible to enlarge the hole in the piston to 22mm if there's enough material in the casting.

Lario pistons (80mm also) with custom-made connecting rods (to work with the longer stroke and 20mm pins) might be another possibility.

Just throwing some ideas out there.   

Thanks for that, I have been searching for a part number for the V75 GT pistons, but no luck so far.  Arias will make me some, no problem, if I can't find some that will work from another source.

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2012, 10:04:55 PM »
Have you sourced the flat top pistons yet?

 :+1 on the dyno runs before and after!

Doing some research on pistons, found some interesting info.  The pertinent specs for each bike:
V7C:
Compression ratio  9.6:1
Stroke  74mm
Bore  80 mm

Lario:
Compression ratio  10.3:1
Stroke  64mm
Bore  80 mm

So the V7Classic piston will travel 5 mm higher in the bore than the Lario piston in a Lario engine.  I will have to cc the combustion chamber in the Lario heads when they come in, cc the combustion chamber in the top of the V7C piston, and then factor in the 5mm longer stroke of the V7C crank at the top of its travel.  That area works out to 25 CC's!  Quite a bit.  It will be interesting to calculate the final compression ratio with the stock piston in place.  It will of course be lower than the stock V7C ratio.  It will be interesting to see how much.

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2012, 02:35:57 AM »
You will, at a minimum, need to make pistons. V75 have 22mm wrist pin, v65 lario are 20mm. The two valve and four valve pistons are completely different designs- the former is Heron head, latter is a pent roof. Using stock pistons will produce an abnormally low compression ratio. ~7:1 or so.

You may be better off starting with a complete lario motor and doing a big bore kit.

Smallblocks are very different animals from big blocks, especially when you start trying to mix and match.


Ed Milich
Guzzipower.com

This.

I wish the project every success but it is NOT going to be easy. As Ed says pistons, preferably using the 750 rods and 22mm Gudgeons are to be preferred. I don't know who is providing Guzzi with smallblock rods nowadays but if its the same mob as are making the rods for the 8V's they are very, very nice items.

Due to different strokes and different rod/stroke ratios you simply cannot 'Plug & Play' like you can with most of the older Big Blocks. To even make a start you'll need to get a pair of pistons side by side and measure stuff like deck height. From there you'll need to start volume calculations to get an acceptable CR. Heat will be a big issue. Skirt length on the pistons will need a bit of thought.

Pete

Offline Trevor G

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2012, 04:33:33 AM »
Doing some research on pistons, found some interesting info.  The pertinent specs for each bike:
V7C:
Compression ratio  9.6:1
Stroke  74mm
Bore  80 mm

Lario:
Compression ratio  10.3:1
Stroke  64mm
Bore  80 mm

So the V7Classic piston will travel 5 mm higher in the bore than the Lario piston in a Lario engine.  I will have to cc the combustion chamber in the Lario heads when they come in, cc the combustion chamber in the top of the V7C piston, and then factor in the 5mm longer stroke of the V7C crank at the top of its travel. 

The difference is made up in the barrels, not the heads.

The heads are the same for the 750 and 650 cc engines.

I have a set of barrels and pistons for a 750 4 valve I bought several years ago from Germany. The pistons are the standard 22mm wrist pin for a 750.

I have a spare set of heads.

Cheers

Trevor G

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2012, 08:22:46 AM »
The difference is made up in the barrels, not the heads.

The heads are the same for the 750 and 650 cc engines.

I have a set of barrels and pistons for a 750 4 valve I bought several years ago from Germany. The pistons are the standard 22mm wrist pin for a 750.

I have a spare set of heads.

Cheers

Trevor G

So the 750 barrels are taller?  To make up for the increased stroke of the 750 crank?  I'm having a hard time finding a part number for the 750 4 valve pistons.  If anyone has a part number for those...I can see whats available... ;-T

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2012, 10:45:39 AM »
Thanks!  That is kind of the allure of doing this, exploring new territory.  With all of the recent advances in manufacturing, who knows?  Maybe a company could reproduce four valve small block heads with a 3D printer.  Heck, they are already printing AR15 rifles.  I am really tempted to go whole hog on this, put on a Ed Milich 850 big bore kit, different cam, etc...
But my goal at this point is to see just how stock I can keep everything, and see what difference a four valve head makes on a modern small block.  To get to this point, I have had to change the ECU, and install an autotune and Power Commander.  The nice thing with that swap complete, I can set the air fuel ratio I want with my laptop, based on a wideband O2 sensor, so compensating for the increased airflow through the heads becomes an easy five minute programming change.  I gotta give a big shout out to Todd at Guzzitech for making that possible.  Heck, two years ago it wouldn't have been.  Once the heads are here I will post pictures of the work.  Fun times indeed!

The four valve heads are very alluring on these sb's.  Don't know if you heard, but myself/Ed are setting about taking a Lario to a new place never explored (to my knowledge).  He is raising compression, adding larger valves, fitting bigger carbs, and reducing recip. weight.  I have a stocker and love its pull.  I think there's more refinement to be had hence the project.  Keep at it with yours.  Gonna be tough, but anything is possible.
-Kevin 
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Offline leafman60

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2012, 10:50:03 AM »
I was wondering about what happened to that project.  Any movement on it ?

Offline guzzi4cats

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2012, 11:41:27 AM »
It will be fascinating to watch your latest project develop.

I stopped in at a fellow Italian Motorcycle Club member's house two weeks ago. He has a lovely V35 Imola that is currently fitted with a V50 motor. On the bench was a beautifully restored V65 Lario motor that is destined for the Imola! He is running Suzuki GN250 valves & springs.

Kurt

Has anyone else any experience of using GN250 valves in the Lario?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 11:43:01 AM by guzzi4cats »

Offline rocker59

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2012, 12:56:16 PM »
Why in the world didn't Guzzi develop a new set of 4-valve heads for the V7 series when they did this latest upgrade?  Oh, we've already been through all of that ....

I wonder the same thing.  Why didn't they downsize the setup from the current big block 8v?  Only Piaggio knows...
Michael T.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2012, 01:37:41 PM »
Has anyone else any experience of using GN250 valves in the Lario?

Yes... I used them.  They work great, though I haven't tested WAY up top.  Not necessary for my style, but no valve float where I have been.
-Kevin
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2012, 02:18:02 PM »
I was wondering about what happened to that project.  Any movement on it ?

Yes.. see here: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=58366.0

Updated today, but need image hosting site as I see we can't post directly anymore.
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2012, 06:18:30 PM »
The four valve heads are very alluring on these sb's.  Don't know if you heard, but myself/Ed are setting about taking a Lario to a new place never explored (to my knowledge).  He is raising compression, adding larger valves, fitting bigger carbs, and reducing recip. weight.  I have a stocker and love its pull.  I think there's more refinement to be had hence the project.  Keep at it with yours.  Gonna be tough, but anything is possible.
-Kevin 

Yes, I think it will be well worth the time and money invested.  I have been following your project...what a cool build!  It will be pretty nice to get the small block breathing better!

Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2013, 10:21:35 AM »
mwrenn
I missed this thread in December.
Will you keep us in the loop on your progress?
You are exploring uncharted territory I believe  ;-T

Cheers
Brian
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2013, 10:30:02 AM »
Thanks for that, I have been searching for a part number for the V75 GT pistons, but no luck so far.  Arias will make me some, no problem, if I can't find some that will work from another source.

They have the data from me, but we already discussed that :)
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2013, 06:45:58 PM »
It is taking a lot of parts to get this conversion done....

2 heads, 8 valve springs, 8 lower spring seats and 8 uppers, 16 valve keepers, 4 exhaust valves and 4 intakes, 2 pistons.....that's 50 parts so far.

Also going into this are 2 valve covers, 2 rocker assemblies, 4 pushrods, 4 tappets, all the gaskets, and some outside service work, DLC coating on the tappets and cam, seat work on the heads, etc...

The project is proceeding well however...just waiting for parts to come in at this point.  Many thanks to IceBlue for all of his help on this...it would be much more difficult to make the conversion without his help, and this forum!   ;D

Here is a teaser pic...

 

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2013, 12:01:05 AM »
Wow man... yours may be done before mine. You are doing great!  Keep it up. Likely more to learn from yours than mine from a conversion standpoint at least. Yours is taking a 2 valve machine to the next level, mine is taking the 4 valve version to the next level. Yours could be a game changer for many more. This will be fun to watch happen.
Kevin
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2013, 05:03:54 AM »
It is taking a lot of parts to get this conversion done....

2 heads, 8 valve springs, 8 lower spring seats and 8 uppers, 16 valve keepers, 4 exhaust valves and 4 intakes, 2 pistons.....that's 50 parts so far.

Also going into this are 2 valve covers, 2 rocker assemblies, 4 pushrods, 4 tappets, all the gaskets, and some outside service work, DLC coating on the tappets and cam, seat work on the heads, etc...

The project is proceeding well however...just waiting for parts to come in at this point.  Many thanks to IceBlue for all of his help on this...it would be much more difficult to make the conversion without his help, and this forum!   ;D

Here is a teaser pic...

 


I'm curious Mike. By the looks of it, (and you told me too) you are going to upgrade an Imola II head to a Lario head (I just love the looks of a brand new 4V head - RAAAARE) - I have heard none do that before. How will you go about this? As we agreed, the Imola II head has smaller valves, and a smaller combustion chamber, this also means longer valves/lower seats IMO. It will take some doing/machining - and I will bow to touch your boots if you get this right  :bow

Ciao
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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2013, 06:13:39 AM »
I'm waiting with bated breath too.  I like smallblock mods, and this is a good one.  Keep us posted.
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2013, 09:52:38 PM »
Some good questions here on converting the Imola II head to a Lario head.  So far, all the information I have gathered leads me to believe that the intake and exhaust ports are the same dimension as the Lario head.  The combustion chamber is the same as well.  The only difference I am aware of at this time is the valve seats.  However...comma.... :D  I want to confirm this for sure.  To that end I have ordered a stock Lario head from Martin at Guzzi PIU shop.  (It was on sale)!  When that head arrives next week or so I will be able to measure exactly all of the dimensions and compare them.  So far I have measured the length of a stock Imola II exhaust valve and a stock Lario exhaust valve, and they are the same.  The Imola II combustion chamber measures 22.5 cc's.  With some stock V75 pistons, I will have a compression ratio of 10.2:1.  Thanks to Brian, again, for posting the link for the V75 pistons and rings on ebay.  The seller is shipping them tomorrow.  I am having a lot of fun with this project already, and so far all I've done is parts research...LOL!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271133009688?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:56:17 PM by mwrenn »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2013, 10:00:26 PM »
You're going to have the hottest late-model Guzzi small block on the planet Mike. Congratulations!

He he..fun..getting this going.  I'm planning to ride to see my parents in Prescott this summer, I'll have to swing by on the way and see you.  I can check out the Racer!!!
Cheers!

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2013, 10:12:18 PM »
He he..fun..getting this going.  I'm planning to ride to see my parents in Prescott this summer, I'll have to swing by on the way and see you.  I can check out the Racer!!!
Cheers!

Who will have the racer??!!  ;)
-Kevin
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2013, 03:39:08 AM »
Some good questions here on converting the Imola II head to a Lario head.  So far, all the information I have gathered leads me to believe that the intake and exhaust ports are the same dimension as the Lario head.  The combustion chamber is the same as well.  The only difference I am aware of at this time is the valve seats.  However...comma.... :D  I want to confirm this for sure.  To that end I have ordered a stock Lario head from Martin at Guzzi PIU shop.  (It was on sale)!  When that head arrives next week or so I will be able to measure exactly all of the dimensions and compare them.  So far I have measured the length of a stock Imola II exhaust valve and a stock Lario exhaust valve, and they are the same.  The Imola II combustion chamber measures 22.5 cc's.  With some stock V75 pistons, I will have a compression ratio of 10.2:1.  Thanks to Brian, again, for posting the link for the V75 pistons and rings on ebay.  The seller is shipping them tomorrow.  I am having a lot of fun with this project already, and so far all I've done is parts research...LOL!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271133009688?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
Congrats getting the stock pistons - rare catch  ;-T

One note on the combustion chamber of the Lario head vs. the Imola II head. The Lario head's "pent roof" part of the combustion camber measure 7 x 5,5cm, the Imola chamber 6,5 x 5cm. The Lario valves are 95,5mm long and the Imola II valves are 99,25mm. Not much diff. but almost 4mm. This indicates (not conclude though) that the "roof" of the Imola combustion chamber is lower, than that of the Lario, which again with the diameter I listed of the two chambers suggest a smaller chamber on the Imola II vs. the Lario head.

Here are the two heads side by side. Itís a bit hard to see due to the carbon on the Imola II head. The chamber has a sort of super elliptic circle at the gasket base of the head. This is what I measured. The two mills use the same rocker assembly, so geomitry is very similar. The Imola II has shorter push rod's though. The tappets will have to be modified for the V75 push rods, or new tappets must be installed. A small cup installed in the 8V tappets elevates the point of contact to the push rod in the 8V tappets.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 05:12:33 AM by IceBlue »
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750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

 

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
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