Author Topic: V7 Classic with Lario heads  (Read 112835 times)

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #300 on: February 21, 2015, 05:35:54 PM »
First ride report...it's a different bike..the only words I can use to describe it..The acceleration, rolling on power, is effortless now.  Its just comes on and keeps winding up.  I went out and broke the ton with her this afternoon.

Funny, at the end of the vid, I couldn't get 5th gear.  I backed off and caught it.  4th gear was holding against the rev limiter, 100 mph and 7600 rpm.  When I caught 5th, it was going through 110 and plenty of room left.  Had to back off for traffic ahead of me.  That was plenty for me, I know she can represent now...and not come apart!  LOL  I will have to compose my impressions in a more detailed manner and post them.  Right now I am extremely pleased with the conversion.  It was well worth it.  Next on the agenda is to see about longevity.  I really don't think I will have any problem putting a lot of miles on and having her be reliable.  We will see.

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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #301 on: February 21, 2015, 05:41:18 PM »
OK, now that I have first tracks-

This is right up with Chuck's incredible machine. In many ways this may have been more useful, not many drone mills running around, and I'm going to send this vid to my friend with a V7R, along with a dare..

Oh man..that just ain't right..LOL 

Offline Aaron D.

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #302 on: February 21, 2015, 05:46:35 PM »
Gee, you don't mess around with panty waisted break in procedures, do you!

Sending this too, I may have peed a little.

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #303 on: February 21, 2015, 05:51:57 PM »
Gee, you don't mess around with panty waisted break in procedures, do you!

Sending this too, I may have peed a little.

LMAO.  I am pumped!  The bike was a blast to ride before.  Now its just...exponential. ..

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #303 on: February 21, 2015, 05:51:57 PM »

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #304 on: February 21, 2015, 06:00:47 PM »
Attaboy!  ;-T Congrats. Now you see why people have been talking up the Lario for a long time. There *is* that one little longevity problem, though.  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline Moto Fugazzi

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #305 on: February 21, 2015, 06:16:59 PM »
Whoo Hoo!!!  That sums it up!!  Got the replacement tensioner in today.  A quick note,  when disaasembling the front end of a small block Guzzi engine, DO NOT try to move the tensioner plastic out of the way with your thumb.  Just unbolt it and remove it.  Things are a lot better that way.




I hope that red stuff isn't blood.

I have to say, what you did was very impressive!
Ken
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #306 on: February 21, 2015, 06:24:12 PM »
Attaboy!  ;-T Congrats. Now you see why people have been talking up the Lario for a long time. There *is* that one little longevity problem, though.  ;D

Yes, just that one itty bitty little problem...LOL   I hope that the longevity problem is solved!  Hmmm....maybe should have got me some grenade valve stem caps!  LOL
All kidding aside, after today's ride, the four valve small blocks, yeah, I totally get it now!!!

Hopefully all of the known issues with the four valve small block drive train have been addressed..  I tried to be systematic about it.  Cam and lifter wear were handled with DLC coatings and progressive valve springs.  Valve longevity should be ok with the stainless valves.  Use of bronze guides and seats should improve heat transfer.
I am going to just ride the heck out of this bike for a while, keep note of problems that might crop up.  I am really pleased with the way it pulls when I open the throttle.  Reminds me of my KZ900 Z1 I had about 20 years ago.  It just goes.  I have to qualify the difference between the two and four valve as quite dramatic. Very noticeable.

Thanks for all of your input!!

 




 

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #307 on: February 21, 2015, 06:30:37 PM »
I hope that red stuff isn't blood.

I have to say, what you did was very impressive!
Ken

Thanks Ken!  Gotta love Guzzi red tank paint...just about blood color...lol

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #308 on: February 21, 2015, 07:13:03 PM »
Quote
I have to qualify the difference between the two and four valve as quite dramatic. Very noticeable.

Absolutely. The 4 valve engines breathe much better as revs build.

I talked to my friend that builds race engines about your piston hone job using a brake cylinder hone today. He thinks you'll be ok, although a Sunnen hone job would have been better..and he knows his stuff.
Yes, you have addressed the reliability issues as we know them. Your job, should you wish to accept it, is to run the piss out of it for 50K miles.  ;D
Nice job.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #309 on: February 21, 2015, 09:05:12 PM »
a totally bad-ass build. I hope mine turns out as nice. Going to a dyno at all?
Something wistful and amusing, yet poignant.

Offline Tazturtle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #310 on: February 21, 2015, 09:51:11 PM »
Awesome! Great work. Sounds sweet!

Kurt
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #311 on: February 21, 2015, 10:09:42 PM »
Absolutely. The 4 valve engines breathe much better as revs build.

I talked to my friend that builds race engines about your piston hone job using a brake cylinder hone today. He thinks you'll be ok, although a Sunnen hone job would have been better..and he knows his stuff.
Yes, you have addressed the reliability issues as we know them. Your job, should you wish to accept it, is to run the piss out of it for 50K miles.  ;D
Nice job.

Thanks, Shirley it will go 50K no problem...:)

I'll take the job!  Lol.

 Yes, I thought about the brake cylinder hone after you mentioned it.  The one problem I could see would be keeping the bore straight with the flexible drive of the hone I used.  I removed such a small amount of material though, I wasn't too concerned about it. Thanks for checking with your friend.  We will see.  As you can probably tell from the video, I will ride it pretty hard.  Not in an abusive manner, but I'm not going to baby her either.  Just ride like I normally do.

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #312 on: February 21, 2015, 10:13:07 PM »
a totally bad-ass build. I hope mine turns out as nice. Going to a dyno at all?

Yes, planning on a Dyno for tuning.  I am really happy how the fueling is working now.  I was not sure the extra flow from the four valves would be handled by the auto tune.  Turns out it was a non issue.  I did not have to adjust a thing.  Thanks for the compliment!  What are you building?

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #313 on: February 21, 2015, 10:19:03 PM »
Awesome! Great work. Sounds sweet!

Kurt

Thanks Man!  It really does sound good in person...just right you know.  I did notice more tappet noise, I am pretty sure that is to be expected.  I am planning on checking the valve clearances tomorrow.  Got about 50 miles on her today.  Today was 60 degrees F, about 15 C, a perfect day.  Tomorrow it's supposed to be highs at 0 degrees C.  Staying that way for two weeks!  Glad I got the ride done today!
Cheers

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #314 on: February 21, 2015, 10:50:01 PM »
How does it feel to be a pioneer?  Congrats and that thing sounds great!  I think you're pulling some good ponies out of it by the sounds. Also doesn't sound like you need a 6th gear. ;)
How cool is all of this conversion and I hope folks take note from all this as it's something we should all take in. When someone does stuff like this we should not ignore it. I hope Guzzi is watching.
Not to worry on the valve train as I said before. You added quality bits and that's better than, well... most.
 
Sounds like you gave it a good run-in thrashing. Keep giving us ride reports as I'm certainly curious as hell about a fuel injected (more modern) beast like this.
Great Day!


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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #315 on: February 21, 2015, 10:50:16 PM »
Yes, planning on a Dyno for tuning.  I am really happy how the fueling is working now.  I was not sure the extra flow from the four valves would be handled by the auto tune.  Turns out it was a non issue.  I did not have to adjust a thing.  Thanks for the compliment!  What are you building?

LM 1000 with lots of special goodies, but 4 valve heads, hm...

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=74056.0
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #316 on: February 21, 2015, 11:09:21 PM »
LMAO.  I am pumped!  The bike was a blast to ride before.  Now its just...exponential. ..

This is why I invested into this mill to see what was possible when giving it its due respect. Yee-haaaaaaa
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #317 on: February 21, 2015, 11:13:29 PM »


Thank you!  It has been a long time in the making.  Yes, I am pretty confident the valve train will not be an issue.  I'm going to be putting the miles on this bike now, establish the reliability.  It was interesting how the gearing and better flowing heads worked.  As you can probably tell from the ride video, the bike wrapped right to 100 mph no problem.  I could not feel any restriction on the intake like I used to.  It was just a smooth winding up in rpm. 
I am not sure why I couldn't get fifth gear, until I backed out of it some.  Need to work on that, mostly rider technique. Lol.
 I do remember that with the two valve heads, 100 mph was about it as far as the top speed.  I could hit it in fourth gear with some effort, but fifth gear it would get to about 6K rpm and that was all she could do.  Just too tall a gear and not enough air going into the combustion chamber.
I am kind of surprised that the fuel tuning worked as well as it did.  I just the air/fuel ratio at 13.2:1 and the auto tune handled it no problem.  That is pretty neat, no messing around with jetting or spark advance, just type some numbers in the computer and go...Lol.
Next step this spring is to tune it on a Dyno.  Then just keep riding it.

Thanks for all of your interest and input! 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 11:35:13 PM by mwrenn »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #318 on: February 21, 2015, 11:30:44 PM »
LM 1000 with lots of special goodies, but 4 valve heads, hm...

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=74056.0

That is going to be a hoot to twist the throttle on!  Very interesting insights on cam design. Looks like you have made a lot of progress, she will be running soon:)
I have my reading cut out for me tonight...following some of those links....
Cheers!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #319 on: February 21, 2015, 11:32:07 PM »
This is why I invested into this mill to see what was possible when giving it its due respect. Yee-haaaaaaa

Yep, Yeeee..Haaaa!!!  Pretty much say it all!
Cheers.

Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #320 on: February 22, 2015, 01:04:15 AM »
Congrats Mike!!! - I'm so happy your project is a success - like Chuck points out - the next 50k miles will tell the story. The DLC is one feature I still have to try (I have a old shaft with oil ducts I may have Ed fix up for me), allthough my lobes still are holding up, but I haven't done 50k on them either...yet. Happy to welcome a new SB 4V (8V) addict into the "club"  ;-T ;-T ;-T Like Chuck once pointed out - they are more fun than a guy should be allowed to have  :D

Now you have to write up a few more ride repports :BEER:
Hoping to cranck up my silver streak project this next season, but time is an issue with the family growing (grandkids) and traveling our vacations away.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 07:26:55 AM by IceBlue »
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Offline Dogwalker

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #321 on: February 22, 2015, 03:26:04 AM »
Great report, thanks!  ;-T

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #322 on: February 22, 2015, 09:25:07 AM »
Just watched the ride vid; didn't see that last night.  Holy Moses did that thing get up there quick.  Gave it a fist full and never backed off.  Looks like valve float is a non-issue to the limiter and the fueling is very good.  That's a beast!  ;-T

Take away the initial clutch slip and you're up to 60 in no time flat and blowing straight up like it's nothing.  Truly impressive.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 09:33:19 AM by kevdog3019 »
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #323 on: February 22, 2015, 10:36:04 AM »
Congrats Mike!!! - I'm so happy your project is a success - like Chuck points out - the next 50k miles will tell the story. The DLC is one feature I still have to try (I have a old shaft with oil ducts I may have Ed fix up for me), allthough my lobes still are holding up, but I haven't done 50k on them either...yet. Happy to welcome a new SB 4V (8V) addict into the "club"  ;-T ;-T ;-T Like Chuck once pointed out - they are more fun than a guy should be allowed to have  :D

Now you have to write up a few more ride repports :BEER:
Hoping to cranck up my silver streak project this next season, but time is an issue with the family growing (grandkids) and traveling our vacations away.

Ciao


Brian, thanks for all of your help man!  Finding those Pistons for me, sending the technical manuals and parts books, I really could not have put her together without your help!  Whew, I can certainly see that the 4V bikes are addictive.  More ride reports and random musings will be forthcoming.
Thank You again!
Cheers

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #324 on: February 22, 2015, 10:45:41 AM »
Just watched the ride vid; didn't see that last night.  Holy Moses did that thing get up there quick.  Gave it a fist full and never backed off.  Looks like valve float is a non-issue to the limiter and the fueling is very good.  That's a beast!  ;-T

Take away the initial clutch slip and you're up to 60 in no time flat and blowing straight up like it's nothing.  Truly impressive.

Thanks Man!

Yes, she is a lot quicker now, trying to describe it, seems like the power comes in effortlessly.  Before the swap it seemed like the intake was limiting acceleration, just the way it felt you know?  Now that choked down feeling is gone, the engine feels better.  Yes, no valve float, and the fueling is really close.  I was really thinking I would have to play with the tuning a lot, but it just ran.  Pretty cool.  That clutch slip is how I had to do it, I'm not heavy enough to keep the front wheel down....LOL!

BTW, how high do you rev your bike?  It feels like I could use another 1000 rpm or so.  Not worth dinging a valve though.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 10:47:57 AM by mwrenn »

Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #325 on: February 22, 2015, 12:25:40 PM »
BTW, how high do you rev your bike?  It feels like I could use another 1000 rpm or so.  Not worth dinging a valve though.

I would not take her beyond 7500rpm - valve float is taking off on my modded Lario @ 8000rpm using Nevada springs and China valves, and one other parameter is the longer push rods. More weight to move than on the Lario. Using titanium valves may give more head room and perhaps lightening the rockers, but now it starts to get a bit tricky, one do not want to weaken them  :)  ...and titanium valves comes with a hefty price tag.

Ciao
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #326 on: February 22, 2015, 01:06:30 PM »
I would not take her beyond 7500rpm - valve float is taking off on my modded Lario @ 8000rpm using Nevada springs and China valves, and one other parameter is the longer push rods. More weight to move than on the Lario. Using titanium valves may give more head room and perhaps lightening the rockers, but now it starts to get a bit tricky, one do not want to weaken them  :)  ...and titanium valves comes with a hefty price tag.

Ciao

Yes, I will keep her under 7500 rpm!  My goal now, with this bike, is to prove the reliability of the valve train.  I am confident this build will last.  Planning on a lot of riding this summer, trips to Memphis, Colorado, and California.  The miles will add up quickly:)
I do want to pursue another build later, starting next winter.
What I have in mind, just for fun, is to take a single TB engine, a 2013 model or later, and really hot rod it.  Put on some 850 cylinders with Arias pistons, titanium pushrods and valve keepers. Lightweight Carillo connecting rods and a lightened flywheel.  Four valve heads.  See about getting a custom rocker arm assembly built, perhaps titanium.
Also go with a custom cam.  Ha ha, that will be a fun ride.  Might take a while to get it all together..lol
I hope your winter is over soon Brian, maybe you can get your Silver Streak going!
I sent Martin an EBay link to a Lario engine.  It will not ship to other countries, but maybe he could use it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/moto-guzzi-v65-lario-motorgehuse-/161607624924
Anyway, good to hear from you!
Cheers.

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #327 on: February 22, 2015, 01:08:39 PM »
I agree with Ice Ice Baby on this rev thing.  If you feel you've got more to be had then you're still safe.  If Ice is getting valve float around the 8000 mark I'd stay clear of that.  You know yours is good to what the limiter indicates and that's perfect.  You can have some good safe fun now knowing this.  
I was trying to get a feel on mine from a fueling standpoint all last summer as well as dealing with life changes.  Those are behind me, though I'm not certain on the fueling.  It's good now, but think it can go higher on the mains.  I'm up there as is, but she is none too rich.  So... this spring I'm going to finish that job of dialing it up and ride ride ride.  I really do need to see what it can do up top.  I have a couple different options I could try for kicks.  Mine has even bigger valves and a modified cam.  What yours did tells me something!
How did it do low side of the gearing on pull in normal riding (under 4k RPM)?  Comparable to the two valve or did it feel bigger?

Much more intoxicating these 4-valves over the 2.  Betcha' can't wait for warm weather again.  ;D    
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #328 on: February 22, 2015, 02:09:51 PM »
I agree with Ice Ice Baby on this rev thing.  If you feel you've got more to be had then you're still safe.  If Ice is getting valve float around the 8000 mark I'd stay clear of that.  You know yours is good to what the limiter indicates and that's perfect.  You can have some good safe fun now knowing this.  
I was trying to get a feel on mine from a fueling standpoint all last summer as well as dealing with life changes.  Those are behind me, though I'm not certain on the fueling.  It's good now, but think it can go higher on the mains.  I'm up there as is, but she is none too rich.  So... this spring I'm going to finish that job of dialing it up and ride ride ride.  I really do need to see what it can do up top.  I have a couple different options I could try for kicks.  Mine has even bigger valves and a modified cam.  What yours did tells me something!
How did it do low side of the gearing on pull in normal riding (under 4k RPM)?  Comparable to the two valve or did it feel bigger?

Much more intoxicating these 4-valves over the 2.  Betcha' can't wait for warm weather again.  ;D    

Yes, I will just stay under 8K, she pulls hard all the way up there, no real need to wind her up any more.
I did a lot of experimenting with my air/fuel ratios when I first got the reflash/PCV/AT.  I set the target air fuel ratio at 5 to 20 percent throttle at 13.4:1, then left the higher throttle positions richer at 13.2:1.  I was looking for good fuel economy in the cruise range, then good response above that.  It worked ok, but I could tell she needed more gas down low.  I finally went with 13.2:1 AFR across the whole map as a target for the AutoTune.  That worked really well.  I guess my point is, these four valve engines like the gas!  Lol. Running a little lean just doesn't cut it.
Sounds like your bike with the bigger cam and valves would like that.
Yep, ride ride ride, that's my plan too!  It will be fun to find out how yours really runs once she's dialed in.

My impression on the low side pull, under 4k, is that it is effortless now.  When I went for my first ride, that was the first thing I noticed.  It was dramatic, seemed like I was going downhill all the time.  You know how that feels?  I noticed that I really had to watch my speed in town.  I would leave a stop sign and give it the same throttle that I was used to, then realize I was going way to fast, like 60 in a 45 zone, and have to back out of it.  So to answer your question, yes, it felt bigger.  Like a different motorcycle.  
Yeah, I'm done with the two valve stuff now.  I really was not sure how different it would be.  If it would even be worth it.  I realize too that I am enthusiastic about it, that I have to be objective in my observations.  That is another reason I'm planning a Dyno run to dial it in.  Get some real numbers on paper.
You know, thinking about looking at horsepower and torque figures for a bike.  The numbers seem to be just a general guide for what to expect.  I am not smart enough to do the math, but it seems like there should be a coefficient number for quickness of acceleration vs the reciprocating mass of the engine.
I say that because of what I noticed between the two and four valve engines.  Just the ease of the power coming in....
Of course I might be full of crap too!  LOL.
Either way, it's all fun!

60 degrees and sunny yesterday.  Today is 25 and snow.  Sheesh...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 02:17:49 PM by mwrenn »

Online LowRyter

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #329 on: February 22, 2015, 02:15:46 PM »
First ride report...it's a different bike..the only words I can use to describe it..The acceleration, rolling on power, is effortless now.  Its just comes on and keeps winding up.  I went out and broke the ton with her this afternoon.

Funny, at the end of the vid, I couldn't get 5th gear.  I backed off and caught it.  4th gear was holding against the rev limiter, 100 mph and 7600 rpm.  When I caught 5th, it was going through 110 and plenty of room left.  Had to back off for traffic ahead of me.  That was plenty for me, I know she can represent now...and not come apart!  LOL  I will have to compose my impressions in a more detailed manner and post them.  Right now I am extremely pleased with the conversion.  It was well worth it.  Next on the agenda is to see about longevity.  I really don't think I will have any problem putting a lot of miles on and having her be reliable.  We will see.

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20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler with donation credit
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
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