Author Topic: V7 Classic with Lario heads  (Read 111233 times)

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2013, 05:59:59 AM »
Brian,
     From pic you show of the Imola Head, his looks like a Lario head (yours on the left).
-Kevin 
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2013, 06:54:20 AM »
Brian,
     From pic you show of the Imola Head, his looks like a Lario head (yours on the left).
-Kevin 

Yes they look VERY similar, but they are not - the Imola head are different on the points I have listed above the pic.  Just bring out the "yard stick" and you'll see  ;D
You can see the valves are smaller too on the Imola head, the shop manual will tell you too  :)
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2013, 08:23:03 AM »
After blowing your pic up I can now see the chamber through the blackness. I thought it was round. It is not.
Kevin
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2013, 08:31:45 AM »
After blowing your pic up I can now see the chamber through the blackness. I thought it was round. It is not.
Kevin

No - it's a super ellipse or a squircle, like the Lario head - just a bit smaller.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 08:36:43 AM by IceBlue »
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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2013, 08:31:45 AM »

Online bad Chad

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2013, 09:13:42 AM »
I wonder the same thing.  Why didn't they downsize the setup from the current big block 8v?  Only Piaggio knows...

I highly suspect it is all about marketing.   If you look what they are doing with the small blocks you can see a plan in action.  First Aprilia does a work over of the SB to bring it up to a more modern function with the Breva 750 and Nevada.  A few years later, Piaggio does another, pushing it a bit farther with the latest v7 series and Nevada.   Sales have been increasing all along, once the first gen v7 series came out it became guzzi biggest selling line.  With the second gen v7 series sales have surged forward even more.   It seems clear to me Piaggio will run this current line as long as it can, and at some point when sales numbers begin to level off or decline the 3rd gen v7 series will come out, with a 4v head. 
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2013, 09:55:07 AM »
I highly suspect it is all about marketing.   If you look what they are doing with the small blocks you can see a plan in action.  First Aprilia does a work over of the SB to bring it up to a more modern function with the Breva 750 and Nevada.  A few years later, Piaggio does another, pushing it a bit farther with the latest v7 series and Nevada.   Sales have been increasing all along, once the first gen v7 series came out it became guzzi biggest selling line.  With the second gen v7 series sales have surged forward even more.   It seems clear to me Piaggio will run this current line as long as it can, and at some point when sales numbers begin to level off or decline the 3rd gen v7 series will come out, with a 4v head. 

Yeah, and that's when they release the V7 Racer. Woops... already did that. I'm not buying the fact that they have master plan. I'm not doubting 4-valve heads some day, but they will have to change away from the series they've about tapped out with. Where do you go from "Racer"?  ::)
Kevin
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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2013, 10:05:20 AM »
Why?   What's wrong with the RACER GT or some such?
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Offline Unkept

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2013, 10:16:40 AM »
Why?   What's wrong with the RACER GT or some such?

I want to see a name like.... Moto Guzzi V7 Racer SS 8v LE ;)

Subaru gets pretty ridiculous with their limited edition STi models in Japan. For example: Subaru Impreza WRX STi Version 5 Type RA 555 Limited  :BEER:

Best of luck on your conversion! I think it would be awesome if they simply "scaled down" the 8v motor. They made a 500cc V8 once, why couldn't they scale down the relatively simple 8v design?

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2013, 10:47:32 AM »
Maybe they'll raise the bore size to 850 while they're at it and finally bring back the "lemans".   ;-T  

I suppose their "limited production" on the first "Racer" might have been to see how it was received.  It was received quite well from a looks standpoint, but if they listened to the "talk" (which we can only hope!) they may have heard it's a sheep in wolves clothing.  Maybe they could bring it up again as truly a "Racer" (in Guzzi standards anyhow) with a new mill.  I can see it the more I think of it.

-Kevin  
  
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Offline rocker59

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2013, 11:47:32 AM »
  Where do you go from "Racer"?  ::)
Kevin

Four Valve Heads
Factory Half Fairing
Factory Ohlins Suspension
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Offline rocker59

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2013, 11:49:35 AM »
   It seems clear to me Piaggio will run this current line as long as it can, and at some point when sales numbers begin to level off or decline. the 3rd gen v7 series will come out, with a 4v head. 

And that's when I'll have another smallblock in my garage!
Michael T.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2013, 11:55:04 AM »
Four Valve Heads
Factory Half Fairing
Factory Ohlins Suspension
Seventeen Inch Front Wheel

Etc, Etc...

You're making my mouth water with that talk.  ;-T
Kevin
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
'85 Honda Nighthawk 700s
'86 V65 Lario

Offline Unkept

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2013, 02:04:36 PM »
You should check this guys ad out -> http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17836
- 4 pushrods, very good condition, 8 valve specific
- 2 cylinderhead covers, left and right, good condition, 8valve specific
- oilpan, suitable for any V65, good condition
- brake fluid container for rear brake, good condition
- a pair of rockerarm assemblys (left and right), 8 valve specific, very good condition
- camchain, (8valve specific?), very good condition

Offline Tazturtle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2013, 07:43:46 PM »
Racer, Bonneville, Ninja, Thunderbird, Fury, etc etc ad infinitum!

You'd have to be a grumpy old man to get your panties in a bunch over motorcycle nomenclature!
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2013, 11:40:52 PM »
Yes they look VERY similar, but they are not - the Imola head are different on the points I have listed above the pic.  Just bring out the "yard stick" and you'll see  ;D
You can see the valves are smaller too on the Imola head, the shop manual will tell you too  :)

Thanks for the input on that Brian!  When the Lario head gets here I will be able to do a side by side comparison and see about the combustion chamber dimensions.  I have spoken with Millenium Technologies about the head work, if I need to change the combustion chamber, they can do it for me. http://www.mt-llc.com/head.php

On the issue of the valves being different lengths, I have a stock Lario valve that I measured for length, and it was the same as the Imola II valve.  I will take a picture of them next to a scale ruler tomorrow night and post it.  Brian, you say the parts book lists the Imola valve as shorter?  I don't have a Imola II parts book.  Can not find one.  Still gathering information!  ;-T

Cheers!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2013, 11:46:00 PM »
Just give me a heads-up. The V7R isn't getting enough riding.

Will do!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2013, 11:49:01 PM »
You should check this guys ad out -> http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17836
- 4 pushrods, very good condition, 8 valve specific
- 2 cylinderhead covers, left and right, good condition, 8valve specific
- oilpan, suitable for any V65, good condition
- brake fluid container for rear brake, good condition
- a pair of rockerarm assemblys (left and right), 8 valve specific, very good condition
- camchain, (8valve specific?), very good condition


Thanks for the heads up!

Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2013, 01:19:11 AM »
Thanks for the input on that Brian!  When the Lario head gets here I will be able to do a side by side comparison and see about the combustion chamber dimensions.  I have spoken with Millenium Technologies about the head work, if I need to change the combustion chamber, they can do it for me. http://www.mt-llc.com/head.php

On the issue of the valves being different lengths, I have a stock Lario valve that I measured for length, and it was the same as the Imola II valve.  I will take a picture of them next to a scale ruler tomorrow night and post it.  Brian, you say the parts book lists the Imola valve as shorter?  I don't have a Imola II parts book.  Can not find one.  Still gathering information!  ;-T

Cheers!

Hi Mike
It's not the Imola parts manual. It's in the Imola II/Monza II/Lario shop manual. Let me know if you do not have it. It also covers the Lario. You can then do a spec. comparison on valves, bores ect. Even the V50 Monza II is covered too, but that bugger uses the Lario heads.

I've heard a lot about Millinium Tech. Chuck has use them too for replating a cylinder I believe. You depinately have to keep us posted on this as you go along.

Ciao  :)
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Offline guzzi4cats

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2013, 02:10:46 PM »
As a matter of interest, my book lists both Imola II valves as longer at 99.25mm, against 95.65mm for the Lario inlet, with the exhaust valve at 95.55mm. Mind you, the same table gives exhaust valve lengths of max 99.55, min 95.25 for the Monza II!  Hmm, a tolerance of over 4 mm! Must be a typo, but it makes me wonder what you can believe. You need a head like a lawyer I reckon! I must say though I'm find this search for information fascinating and I thank you all for making this forum so interesting, not to mention enlightening.

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2013, 10:08:28 PM »
Well, there is a little confusion here, I ordered an Imola II head from Teo Lamers.  I have the head now and was assuming it was for an Imola II.  This evening I removed one of the exhaust valves to compare with a new Lario valve.  The dimensions were the same!  Valve diameter as well as length.  At this point I think maybe they sent me a Lario head by mistake, or at some point in the past a previous owner put bigger valves on their Imola II.  At this point I'm not going to worry about the valve lengths, I will just document carefully the parts I get for this project, and go from there.  I do have a known Lario head coming from Martin at Guzzi PIU, and I have a known Imola II head to compare it to, so the comparison I post here will be accurate.  Anyway, here is a picture of the new Lario valve next to the "Imola II'  valve.  LOL


Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2013, 12:14:08 AM »
Well - having a spare Lario head isn't bad at all - just in case  ;)
I have a couple myself, and hope never to use them as replacements on my Lario's, but as parts to rebuild additional mills one may come accross and take pitty on  ;D

My suggested valve spring solution, as so many other solutions, although similar in natur, are still very much based on faith. Not many or non has piled the number of km/miles on one to be conclusive about the solution, but that's part of the fun and excitement right  :o ::) ;) ;D

There are no two ways about replacing the cam shaft if the existing one has 12mm lobes, Guzzi did that to all the 8V's some time in 1986 - engine numbers available in Guzziology, but the springs in relation to the Lario, is solely based on what Guzzi did to the 2V/head SB's documented in the 750cc SB shop addendum. They never suggested it to the 4V/heads. My assumptiom is they just wanted to forget about them at the time they did this to the 2V/head SB's, and one has to bear in mind, that these springs being softer, will allow "valve float" on, or just after the red line.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 12:20:53 AM by IceBlue »
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V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2013, 12:36:40 PM »
Well - having a spare Lario head isn't bad at all - just in case  ;)
I have a couple myself, and hope never to use them as replacements on my Lario's, but as parts to rebuild additional mills one may come accross and take pitty on  ;D

My suggested valve spring solution, as so many other solutions, although similar in natur, are still very much based on faith. Not many or non has piled the number of km/miles on one to be conclusive about the solution, but that's part of the fun and excitement right  :o ::) ;) ;D

There are no two ways about replacing the cam shaft if the existing one has 12mm lobes, Guzzi did that to all the 8V's some time in 1986 - engine numbers available in Guzziology, but the springs in relation to the Lario, is solely based on what Guzzi did to the 2V/head SB's documented in the 750cc SB shop addendum. They never suggested it to the 4V/heads. My assumptiom is they just wanted to forget about them at the time they did this to the 2V/head SB's, and one has to bear in mind, that these springs being softer, will allow "valve float" on, or just after the red line.

Yes, having spare parts is never a bad thing!  The main reason I wanted the spare head was for for actual side by side comparison to establish the differences between the Lario and Imola II parts.  And to establish what exactly is necessary to convert the Imola II to something that a Lario could use.   ;-T

The rev limiter on my V7 Classic is set at 7600 rpm, so I think the Nevada springs will work out fine.  ;D  I am looking forward to riding the bike for many miles after the conversion!  I really want what I'm doing to be a solid long term fix to the cam/valve breakage problems.
Cheers!

Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2013, 12:57:21 PM »
I would go positively nuts, if Guzzi would revamp the 8V SB and apply a solution like this on a new revamped Lario release. It should not be this complicated to the Piaggio engine nerds. I'd keep it air cooled though  ;D  ...and apply the looks close to the new V7 line of mill - they are one of the best looking SB engines in a long time. They have a flair of 8V look to them  ;D

« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 01:04:14 PM by IceBlue »
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750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

Offline Travman

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2013, 01:02:01 PM »
I would go positively nuts, if Guzzi would revamp the 8V SB and apply a solution like this on a new revamped Lario release. It should not be this complicated to the Piaggio engine nerds. I'd keep it air cooled though  ;D


What exactly are we looking at here. I recognize the bottom end as a Ducati, but what is on top?
Travis King
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2013, 01:14:51 PM »
It's a prototype Ducati by Mariani according to "Dogwalker"

This is the cut through - imagine this timing gear as the front look of a new 8V SB Guzzi mill  :o  Would only take new heads/pistons and a new timing cover.

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750 Targa - long legged younger sister of the Lario
V65 Lario - Short legged total brat
V65 Lario - Silver Streak
V35C - Smallest Guzzi cruiser
V75C - (project)
V75/4 - (project)

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2013, 01:21:58 PM »
That bevel drive is really expensive compared to a chain or belt drive.
The latest chain drive MG is a very good design, IMHO. Water cooling is inevitable to meet emission regulations, and increase power with reduced fuel consumption.

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2013, 03:59:05 PM »
Why are the intakes connected to each of the cylinders and not tb's?
-K
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Offline rocker59

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2013, 04:04:55 PM »
Why are the intakes connected to each of the cylinders and not tb's?
-K

They're not.  The 2D image is deceiving you.
Michael T.
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Offline Tazturtle

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2013, 04:37:59 PM »
Late model bevel - awesome.

Much more costly and labour intensive to manufacture, potentially fragile - but elegant and beautiful!
2012 1200 Sport 8V Corsa SE
2011 V7 Racer #749 (RIP)

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2013, 04:48:13 PM »
Late model bevel - awesome.

Much more costly and labour intensive to manufacture, potentially fragile - but elegant and beautiful!

Speaking of elegant and beautiful.. look at the casting for the 4V small block valve mechanism.. ;-T


Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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