Author Topic: V7 Classic with Lario heads  (Read 140531 times)

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #210 on: February 10, 2015, 08:10:36 AM »
Isn't that too tight? I was thinking the spec was somewhere around .010.. I'll check and get back.
Edit:
Ok, I'm back after breakfast.  Gotta build strength for the day..  ;) looked in the V75 shop manual,and it sez:If it were me, I'd file a couple of thousanths off that end gap. It's *probably* ok, but out of spec. Better a lot loose than a little too tight.

Yes, I looked it up too,  I probably could have slid a .008 or.009 feeler in there.  .007 went right in with no hitch.
I might just pull it and check it again to make sure.  I'm going to get some clay tonight and check valve to piston clearance.  See where that is...

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #211 on: February 10, 2015, 08:45:30 AM »
I didn't say anything about the spring orientation, because I don't know.  A guy could probably spend a few hours on the net.  ;D
Quote:
Coil Bind In any spring installation, coil bind is to be avoided at all costs. If the coils stack solid or bind at or before full lift, at a minimum, the now-infinite load on the valvetrain will cause its weakest link to fail. If you're lucky, the result is merely a bent pushrod. If you're not, you're looking at a broken spring, a dropped valve, or worse.

Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/valve-spring-in-engine-why-the-closer-coil-must-be-down.553482/

But.. beehive springs are installed with the tight coils up. Hmmm.
More research required.. back later.  ;)
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #212 on: February 10, 2015, 08:52:42 AM »
Yes, I looked it up too,  I probably could have slid a .008 or.009 feeler in there.  .007 went right in with no hitch.
I might just pull it and check it again to make sure.  I'm going to get some clay tonight and check valve to piston clearance.  See where that is...

You didn't say that 8 or 9 would go..  ;D
I used carb springs to check out the valve train dynamics on the Aero engine. (with a little help from my friends on WG)  ;D
page 8 of the Aero engine rehab thread..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #213 on: February 10, 2015, 11:31:31 AM »
From a valve spring manufacturer:
Quote
** PLEASE NOTE: Some valve springs are progressive type springs. Progressive springs
do have more coils on one end than the other end to give the springs a specific character.
For these progressive type springs it is very important to fit these correctly to prevent
problems. The end with most coils, the heaviest end, should always be at the bottom.
Some valve spring do have color codes on them, the color codes are always marking the
top end of the spring and should always be fitted on the top side.
 
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #213 on: February 10, 2015, 11:31:31 AM »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #214 on: February 10, 2015, 11:39:01 AM »
Ah, that aero engine install was a work of art.  Anxiously awaiting riding weather...for a first ride report!!

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #215 on: February 10, 2015, 12:00:26 PM »
Ah, that aero engine install was a work of art.  Anxiously awaiting riding weather...for a first ride report!!


Thanks, but not really.  ;D There are many guys here doing more complicated stuff. What you are doing isn't exactly a walk in the park to get working well..  ;-T
* I have the first ride jones pretty bad.*  ;D The sun is out today, and I was seriously thinking about hooking up the old wires and caps to the new Dyna installation, and going for the first ride. Looked at the thermometer, and it said 25.  ::) Never mind.  I busted my a$$ on a patch of unexpected ice one time many years ago. I'll be patient.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #216 on: February 10, 2015, 01:05:18 PM »
Interesting read about the springs. I've got performance dual springs and Ti keepers on my "super" Lario. It's got a modified mild performance cam on it. No valve float.
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #217 on: February 10, 2015, 01:06:37 PM »
Yeah, the first ride has to be at least above freezing temps!  Lol
I am thinking I have the fueling squared away on my project, we will see...

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #218 on: February 10, 2015, 01:08:06 PM »
Interesting read about the springs. I've got performance dual springs and Ti keepers on my "super" Lario. It's got a modified mild performance cam on it. No valve float.

What is your top RPM?  I am limited to around 6500 or so by the rev limiter on the ECU.

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #219 on: February 10, 2015, 02:00:23 PM »
It's about a grand higher give a tad more. You're just getting in the "Happy zone" at 6500. Hmmm...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 02:01:56 PM by kevdog3019 »
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #220 on: February 10, 2015, 02:55:07 PM »
It's about a grand higher give a tad more. You're just getting in the "Happy zone" at 6500. Hmmm...

Yes, I am considering going to a "My Ecu" from Australia.  I have done quite a bit of reading on it.  Either that or bump up the rev limiter on the current ECU.  I have the PC V with auto tune.  It works well.  I can set my target air fuel ratios with a laptop.  So far that is the one thing that makes this swap feasible, from an engine control standpoint.  It will be interesting to see what the rear wheel horsepower is, once everything is dialed in.  I'm thinking about doing a long break in ride, like out to Malibu, Ca. from Oklahoma, this June.  Go see Todd.

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #221 on: February 10, 2015, 03:06:54 PM »
Quote
bump up the rev limiter on the current ECU.

I *assume* you can do that with Guzzidiag.. I know nothing about the small block FI. As Kevin says, 5.5 K and above is where it likes to run. Ace Malott (sp?) told me one time that he was pretty sure that many people dropped valves just from over revving them. Fortunately, with FI, that shouldn't be a problem.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #222 on: February 10, 2015, 04:28:03 PM »
max rpm on latest v7 is 7800, can be set to anything with guzzidiag. No need for a complete different ecu
Paul

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Download Guzzidiag here: http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #223 on: February 10, 2015, 05:33:20 PM »
max rpm on latest v7 is 7800, can be set to anything with guzzidiag. No need for a complete different ecu

 ;-T Thanks, Paul..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #224 on: February 10, 2015, 09:42:30 PM »
Yes, I am considering going to a "My Ecu" from Australia.  I have done quite a bit of reading on it.  Either that or bump up the rev limiter on the current ECU.  I have the PC V with auto tune.  It works well.  I can set my target air fuel ratios with a laptop.  So far that is the one thing that makes this swap feasible, from an engine control standpoint.  It will be interesting to see what the rear wheel horsepower is, once everything is dialed in.  I'm thinking about doing a long break in ride, like out to Malibu, Ca. from Oklahoma, this June.  Go see Todd.

RWHP may not greatly change but the character of the bike should be much different with the pull up top I suspect. It's new ground with ECU so this is all very interesting.
'86 V65 "Super" Lario
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #225 on: February 10, 2015, 10:56:37 PM »
Well, I went by Radio Shack today and got some thermal compound. I put some on the CHT probe and installed it in the cylinder, then put the cylinder on the engine.  I figure the compund will help with heat transfer to the probe.



Plugged in and ready for the head...



I wanted to check the valve to piston clearance, so I took some modeling clay and put it on the piston.  I coated the clay with a little oil to keep it from sticking to the valves.



I installed the head and head gasket, pushrods, lash caps and rockers.  I snugged the head down a little bit, no need to go real tight. I set the valve clearances, and turned the engine through by hand a few times.  Wound up with some nice valve marks in the clay.



Cut the clay with a razor and got a nice cross section of the valve to piston distance.

 

Took a loose measurement, just to have a number...



Looks good!

I then disassembled, got the clay out, and installed the head for the final time. However....I noticed the the pushrod clearance to the cylinder is very tight, almost non existent.  I really feel like I need to take the cylinder back off and grind out about .010" to give the pushrods more room.  Probably have to disassemble the other side too.  Decided to call it a night and think on it some.   Here's a blurry picture of the issue I'm seeing.
Not sure if this is normal, or if the newer cylinders are different castings from the older ones....




Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #226 on: February 11, 2015, 12:13:51 AM »
;-T Thanks, Paul..

Many thanks for that!  I look forward to playing with the writer, I'll start with my spare ECU and use it for test runs!

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #227 on: February 11, 2015, 05:40:33 AM »
One step forward, two steps back. That's about normal when you are experimenting. Certainly, it'll need some clearance, Clarence.  ;D <running and ducking> It'll make it's own in short order if there isn't enough.  :o
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #228 on: February 11, 2015, 08:15:30 AM »
Roger, Roger!
LOL!  Well, the cylinder castings are a little different.  The one thing I noticed is that my cylinders do not have a head alignment dowel.  The head gasket has a larger hole for one, but the V7C parts book doesn't call for one, and there is no cutout for one in the cylinder.  At some point Luigi changed things a little.
Anyhow, I painted the pushrods with blue dykem layout dye this morning.  Figure I will re install them tonight, spin the engine through, and see if the pushrods are rubbing the cylinder.
Stay tuned....same Bat time...same Bat channel!

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #229 on: February 11, 2015, 08:35:24 AM »
Good idea. I didn't know if you knew about Dykem or not, so I didn't mention it. I wouldn't be afraid to go in there with a burr and a die grinder, though..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #230 on: February 11, 2015, 11:32:40 PM »
Another busy night. First thing I did, coated the pushrods with Dykem and installed them. Turned the engine through a few times...pulled the pushrods, I could not find any scratches or contact marks on them!  Whooo Hooo!!!  I really did not want to start grinding on the cylinder!  A pic of the rods after i pulled them out:



I assembled the right head to the cylinder, torqued all the bolts to 250 in/lbs, then torqued the big bolts to 370 in/lbs.  I decided to start putting on the intake manifolds, curious to see if the throttle bodies would line up ok, but ran into an interference issue between the right intake manifold and the head.



I have been trying to be diligent about keeping the assembly area clean, and not cutting, drilling or grinding in the same room.  However, I decided to grind off the intake and cylinder fin that was interfering, while leaving those items installed on the bike.  I did not want to take the head back off again!!

Rounded off the fin and notched the intake:



It fits good now!



I decided to loosely fit the throttle bodies to see if they were going to line up and work.  Here is the left side, with the right side tacked in place:



Looks like it will work!  On that note I called it a night!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #231 on: February 12, 2015, 12:45:40 AM »
Just remembered to mention, I cc'd the Imola heads before I installed them.  After milling they were at 20 cc's.
Stock Lario heads are 22 cc's. The Lario heads would give me 9.5:1 compression ratio. The Imola II heads I am using will result in a 9.7:1 compression ratio.  Stock V7C is 9.6:1
To figure the CR, I measured Bore and stroke, piston travel, deck clearance, head gasket thickness, and head capacity in cc's.
An interesting note.  Cometic industries makes custom thickness head gaskets.  I calculated that every .010 inch difference in head gasket thickness results in a compression ratio change of .272:1.
I could almost get 10:1 CR with a head gasket that is .040" thick.  Stock head gasket is .050.
Hmmmm....

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #232 on: February 12, 2015, 06:06:36 AM »
Quote
Cometic industries

Thanks for that. You're getting closer.. ;D  :pop
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #233 on: February 12, 2015, 12:37:08 PM »
A quick question, for those in the know.  I am planning on using the C8HSA spark plugs, with an NGK LB05F-R plug cap.  This should give me 5K ohms resistance in the circuit.  The original plugs for the V7C are a BR8ES, a resistor type plug.  Does anyone have any input on my plan to use a resistor cap and non-resistor plugs?  Planning on using the stock Guzzi wires and Magnetic Marelli coils.
Also, a quick correction.  My rev limiter is factory stock at 7600 rpm.  I think that will work for me at first, at least keep from over-revving the engine.  I don't want to grenade it right off the bat...hopefully, with the components used, I will have covered all of the reliability issues with the 4 valve drivetrain.  Guess we will see in 50,000 miles....lol

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #234 on: February 12, 2015, 01:57:38 PM »
Quote
Guess we will see in 50,000 miles....lol
Absolutely. Really, no one knows what it's going to take. *I don't know* but I'd bet that your ignition stuff will be ok. I have a vague recollection (like most of them, now)  ;D of that being covered in a post a couple of years ago. You might crank up the search engine and have a look..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #235 on: February 12, 2015, 03:18:14 PM »
You will be fine with reliability. Cheap parts are this mills worst nightmare.  :'(
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #236 on: February 12, 2015, 10:02:43 PM »
A quick question, for those in the know.  I am planning on using the C8HSA spark plugs, with an NGK LB05F-R plug cap.  This should give me 5K ohms resistance in the circuit.  The original plugs for the V7C are a BR8ES, a resistor type plug.  Does anyone have any input on my plan to use a resistor cap and non-resistor plugs?  Planning on using the stock Guzzi wires and Magnetic Marelli coils.
Also, a quick correction.  My rev limiter is factory stock at 7600 rpm.  I think that will work for me at first, at least keep from over-revving the engine.  I don't want to grenade it right off the bat...hopefully, with the components used, I will have covered all of the reliability issues with the 4 valve drivetrain.  Guess we will see in 50,000 miles....lol

Plugs/caps OK IMHO - I use the same setup. Rev limit @ 7600rpm is fine. The progressive Nevada springs start losing it's control at 7800rpm although I have hit 9000rpm by missing a gear - no nicked piston, but still  - don't do it  ;D

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #237 on: February 12, 2015, 10:28:12 PM »
Plugs/caps OK IMHO - I use the same setup.

Yep it doesn't matter where you have the resistor in the HT circuit. In the plug or in the cap, whatever. Resistor caps and standard plugs have been in Guzzis for years. Some use up to 10k but 5k seems fine. Its what I normally use unless I want more spark, then I cheat.  :BEER:

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #238 on: February 13, 2015, 12:40:15 AM »
Plugs/caps OK IMHO - I use the same setup. Rev limit @ 7600rpm is fine. The progressive Nevada springs start losing it's control at 7800rpm although I have hit 9000rpm by missing a gear - no nicked piston, but still  - don't do it  ;D

Ciao

Thanks for that information Brian!  I will leave the rev limiter alone..LOL!!  The only reason I am interested in the spark plug circuit, is because I don't want electromagnetic interference to effect the ECU. I think it will be OK too..guess we will find out!
Cheers!

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #239 on: February 13, 2015, 12:44:12 AM »
Yep it doesn't matter where you have the resistor in the HT circuit. In the plug or in the cap, whatever. Resistor caps and standard plugs have been in Guzzis for years. Some use up to 10k but 5k seems fine. Its what I normally use unless I want more spark, then I cheat.  :BEER:

Ah OK, thanks for that info.  I know now that the V7C stock setup uses 5K ohm resistor caps, and BR8ES resistor plugs.  The only thing I am changing in the circuit, is that I am not using resistor plugs. 
Cheers!

 

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