Author Topic: V7 Classic with Lario heads  (Read 112833 times)

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #330 on: February 22, 2015, 02:22:55 PM »
  :+=copcar  ~;

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #331 on: February 22, 2015, 02:53:58 PM »
Yes, I will just stay under 8K, she pulls hard all the way up there, no real need to wind her up any more.
I did a lot of experimenting with my air/fuel ratios when I first got the reflash/PCV/AT.  I set the target air fuel ratio at 5 to 20 percent throttle at 13.4:1, then left the higher throttle positions richer at 13.2:1.  I was looking for good fuel economy in the cruise range, then good response above that.  It worked ok, but I could tell she needed more gas down low.  I finally went with 13.2:1 AFR across the whole map as a target for the AutoTune.  That worked really well.  I guess my point is, these four valve engines like the gas!  Lol. Running a little lean just doesn't cut it.
Sounds like your bike with the bigger cam and valves would like that.
Yep, ride ride ride, that's my plan too!  It will be fun to find out how yours really runs once she's dialed in.

My impression on the low side pull, under 4k, is that it is effortless now.  When I went for my first ride, that was the first thing I noticed.  It was dramatic, seemed like I was going downhill all the time.  You know how that feels?  I noticed that I really had to watch my speed in town.  I would leave a stop sign and give it the same throttle that I was used to, then realize I was going way to fast, like 60 in a 45 zone, and have to back out of it.  So to answer your question, yes, it felt bigger.  Like a different motorcycle.  
Yeah, I'm done with the two valve stuff now.  I really was not sure how different it would be.  If it would even be worth it.  I realize too that I am enthusiastic about it, that I have to be objective in my observations.  That is another reason I'm planning a Dyno run to dial it in.  Get some real numbers on paper.
You know, thinking about looking at horsepower and torque figures for a bike.  The numbers seem to be just a general guide for what to expect.  I am not smart enough to do the math, but it seems like there should be a coefficient number for quickness of acceleration vs the reciprocating mass of the engine.
I say that because of what I noticed between the two and four valve engines.  Just the ease of the power coming in....
Of course I might be full of crap too!  LOL.
Either way, it's all fun!

60 degrees and sunny yesterday.  Today is 25 and snow.  Sheesh...

Oh I hear you on the butt dyno thing and torque.  Mine is so lightened with the Carrilo's and flywheel that it pulls well downstairs and feels much bigger (that's certainly not ONLY due to lightening) and pulls away from a stop with hardly any gas and just goes.  The dyno only said an increase of 15%, but that's not what I'm getting at the seat.  Who knows as Ed's dyno was on the fritz and torque numbers were hard to read period he said, and he spent many sessions trying to get things to come up right. At any rate, I don't care what the readings are.  The difference is in street riding the thing.  Yeah... I wish there was more to the story than just numbers for torque and hp.  Lightening makes things happen quicker, but that's not torque but sure acts like torque.  Hmmm...
If your next project is anything what you say, that could get the Heron head moving pretty good.  So much for saying the Heron head can't be dealt with successfully.
Side note:  Folks want more horse power in the small block.  I know I've poo poo'd it recently, but my ONLY gripe is not true hp figures but what can be had with 4-valve heads.  Your experiment has proven successful in showing what kind of real-world performance can come from Guzzi's current mill with 4-valve heads.  The actual hp gains may not prove exceptionally different, but it is exceptionally different.  Behaviorally they are two different beasts.  They should have made the "racer" with those heads.         
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #332 on: February 22, 2015, 05:04:19 PM »
Oh I hear you on the butt dyno thing and torque.  Mine is so lightened with the Carrilo's and flywheel that it pulls well downstairs and feels much bigger (that's certainly not ONLY due to lightening) and pulls away from a stop with hardly any gas and just goes.  The dyno only said an increase of 15%, but that's not what I'm getting at the seat.  Who knows as Ed's dyno was on the fritz and torque numbers were hard to read period he said, and he spent many sessions trying to get things to come up right. At any rate, I don't care what the readings are.  The difference is in street riding the thing.  Yeah... I wish there was more to the story than just numbers for torque and hp.  Lightening makes things happen quicker, but that's not torque but sure acts like torque.  Hmmm...
If your next project is anything what you say, that could get the Heron head moving pretty good.  So much for saying the Heron head can't be dealt with successfully.
Side note:  Folks want more horse power in the small block.  I know I've poo poo'd it recently, but my ONLY gripe is not true hp figures but what can be had with 4-valve heads.  Your experiment has proven successful in showing what kind of real-world performance can come from Guzzi's current mill with 4-valve heads.  The actual hp gains may not prove exceptionally different, but it is exceptionally different.  Behaviorally they are two different beasts.  They should have made the "racer" with those heads.         

Yep, I'm with you 100% there.  Like I said, my two valve was fine, I was happy with it.  But, now that the 4v is working, I wouldn't go back to the 2V.  I'm done with that.  Funny, the build I was talking about, with the later model bike, I was planning on 850 cc's anyway.  Thinking I should put the old style cylinders and Lario heads on it.
Already checked the head gasket and base gasket part numbers, they are the same as the earlier bikes.  So it should bolt up.  Gimme another year, we will see!  Lol

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #333 on: February 22, 2015, 06:52:53 PM »
 
Quote
I realize too that I am enthusiastic about it, that I have to be objective in my observations.

I tried very hard to do that when I first took the Aero engine out for a putt. I have no clue why Guzzi hasn't been putting the aero heads on the small block since the 90s.  ~;  I'm fully aware that they gave up on the 4 valves, but the aero heads *are* an improvement, and they have the freakin tooling fer heavensakes. <shrug> I'm *not* trying to rain on your parade. I love the 4 valve performance, too.
Shufflin off, now.
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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #333 on: February 22, 2015, 06:52:53 PM »

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #334 on: February 22, 2015, 07:18:10 PM »

I tried very hard to do that when I first took the Aero engine out for a putt. I have no clue why Guzzi hasn't been putting the aero heads on the small block since the 90s.  ~;  I'm fully aware that they gave up on the 4 valves, but the aero heads *are* an improvement, and they have the freakin tooling fer heavensakes. <shrug> I'm *not* trying to rain on your parade. I love the 4 valve performance, too.
Shufflin off, now.

That Hemi head would give you the best of both worlds.  Fewer moving parts, less reciprocating mass, airflow equivalent to or better than a 4V.  I do not know why they haven't been using them either.  Probably a bean counter figuring a $100 profit margin difference.  You are not raining on my parade..:)  I totally agree with you!

Offline pyoungbl

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #335 on: February 22, 2015, 08:15:15 PM »
Hi, guys.  I have been following both the Aero and Lario builds with interest and excitement.  Nevertheless, I'm kinda confused.  I thought both were hemi heads with the combustion in the head rather than in the piston...ala Heron head.  It would seem to me that a hemi head 4 valve small block would be the cat's meow.  If you punched it out to 830, so much the better.  Still, having the gasses flow better seems to be a no brainer.  You guys seem to have unleashed the hidden genie in the small block so what, in your mind, is the secret to a better small block?

Peter Y.

FWIW, you guys rock!
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #336 on: February 22, 2015, 08:29:28 PM »
Hi, guys.  I have been following both the Aero and Lario builds with interest and excitement.  Nevertheless, I'm kinda confused.  I thought both were hemi heads with the combustion in the head rather than in the piston...ala Heron head.  It would seem to me that a hemi head 4 valve small block would be the cat's meow.  If you punched it out to 830, so much the better.  Still, having the gasses flow better seems to be a no brainer.  You guys seem to have unleashed the hidden genie in the small block so what, in your mind, is the secret to a better small block?

Peter Y.

FWIW, you guys rock!

If you read the threads Grasshopper, the secret(s) lies before you.   ???
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #337 on: February 22, 2015, 08:36:28 PM »
Hi, guys.  I have been following both the Aero and Lario builds with interest and excitement.  Nevertheless, I'm kinda confused.  I thought both were hemi heads with the combustion in the head rather than in the piston...ala Heron head.  It would seem to me that a hemi head 4 valve small block would be the cat's meow.  If you punched it out to 830, so much the better.  Still, having the gasses flow better seems to be a no brainer.  You guys seem to have unleashed the hidden genie in the small block so what, in your mind, is the secret to a better small block?

Peter Y.

FWIW, you guys rock!

Both the Aero engine and the Lario engine, have hemispherical combustion chambers. The Aero engine has one big intake and one big exhaust valve in each cylinder.  The Lario engine has two smaller intake valves, and two smaller exhaust valves in each cylinder.  They both achieve the same goal, more airflow through the head.
Just thought I'd throw that out there FWIW. LOL

I think a "better" small block should make more power than the current factory offering, and do so in a reliable manner.  Guzzi has been able to increase the power in the past, but at the expense of reliability.  I can't speak for Chuck, but my secret is to use components made of better materials, ie. stainless steel valves, and to control the engine electronically. Of course building a small block with even more performance, and maintaining bullet proof reliability would encompass far more than what I have done to date.  For example using lighter more durable valve train components, such as titanium, would do some good ,and be just as reliable.  I suppose it depends on how much you want to spend!
I hope I answered your question.  ;D ;D ;D  

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #338 on: February 22, 2015, 08:37:43 PM »
If you read the threads Grasshopper, the secret(s) lies before you.   ???

True dat!  :) ;-T

Offline Aaron D.

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #339 on: February 23, 2015, 06:39:08 AM »
The 2 valve hemi head has a combustion chamber that does not encourage good burning, sort of an orange peel section when the piston is at tdc, so it would be very hard to keep up with emissions while controlling temperature.

The 4 valve has a pent-roof chamber, a la Cosworth and most modern engines, good mixing on intake, etc., so the future of performance for new bikes lies there.

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #340 on: February 23, 2015, 07:58:15 AM »
The 2 valve hemi head has a combustion chamber that does not encourage good burning, sort of an orange peel section when the piston is at tdc, so it would be very hard to keep up with emissions while controlling temperature.

The 4 valve has a pent-roof chamber, a la Cosworth and most modern engines, good mixing on intake, etc., so the future of performance for new bikes lies there.

Interesting point.  I had not considered that.   

Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #341 on: February 23, 2015, 07:59:36 AM »
I like the Heron head.  In the past they were the cutting edge of race car and airplane development.  Now Guzzi is the only cycle manufacturer that still has a Heron headed bike.  

It's a good "real world" engine, meaning that it produced power in the low and mid range rpm, where you really ride.  Not the red line, where the magazines fawn over.

I still love my flat head Tecumseh snowblower too.  It goes and goes without end.
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #342 on: February 23, 2015, 09:42:20 AM »
Yes, I will keep her under 7500 rpm!  My goal now, with this bike, is to prove the reliability of the valve train.  I am confident this build will last.  Planning on a lot of riding this summer, trips to Memphis, Colorado, and California.  The miles will add up quickly:)
I do want to pursue another build later, starting next winter.
What I have in mind, just for fun, is to take a single TB engine, a 2013 model or later, and really hot rod it.  Put on some 850 cylinders with Arias pistons, titanium pushrods and valve keepers. Lightweight Carillo connecting rods and a lightened flywheel.  Four valve heads.  See about getting a custom rocker arm assembly built, perhaps titanium.
Also go with a custom cam.  Ha ha, that will be a fun ride.  Might take a while to get it all together..lol
I hope your winter is over soon Brian, maybe you can get your Silver Streak going!
I sent Martin an EBay link to a Lario engine.  It will not ship to other countries, but maybe he could use it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/moto-guzzi-v65-lario-motorgehuse-/161607624924
Anyway, good to hear from you!
Cheers.

What you did Mike was actually making an updated verson of the original 8V V75/4 mill from 1986. That engine claims 65hp on the crank @7.300rpm (I have one in my workshop waiting to get tested on my Targa - when time allowes) - but suffered the same issues as the Lario and Imola II - so Guzzi dropped the 8V concept all together. Interesting when you get her on a Dyno, although this is not a rock solid indicator of a bikes power, it can be used as compareson if you had a 4V (2V) version to compare her to :)
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #343 on: February 23, 2015, 09:58:30 AM »
Quote
but suffered the same issues as the Lario

That's why it didn't take too much prodding for me to go to southern Alabama and bring home the Aero engine.  It's had literally thousands of hours of running at 5500 rpm in the Mideast "testing" program.  ;D 
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Offline IceBlue

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #344 on: February 23, 2015, 11:17:36 AM »
That's why it didn't take too much prodding for me to go to southern Alabama and bring home the Aero engine.  It's had literally thousands of hours of running at 5500 rpm in the Mideast "testing" program.  ;D 

Yeah - that sure was one heck of a scoop Chuck!  ;-T
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #345 on: February 23, 2015, 12:54:51 PM »
What you did Mike was actually making an updated verson of the original 8V V75/4 mill from 1986. That engine claims 65hp on the crank @7.300rpm (I have one in my workshop waiting to get tested on my Targa - when time allowes) - but suffered the same issues as the Lario and Imola II - so Guzzi dropped the 8V concept all together. Interesting when you get her on a Dyno, although this is not a rock solid indicator of a bikes power, it can be used as compareson if you had a 4V (2V) version to compare her to :)

Yes, I think Ed Milich did a Dyno on a stock V7Cafe last year, before he modified it.  Perhaps that would be a good comparison.  I was going to Dyno my bike.  The one shop in town here that could do it closed, so it would have been a hassle to get it done.  As it is, I will have to take a day off work and go to Tulsa.  It will be fun to see what is really going on!

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #346 on: February 23, 2015, 01:51:30 PM »
All dynos are not created the same..
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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #347 on: February 23, 2015, 05:13:33 PM »
That's why it didn't take too much prodding for me to go to southern Alabama and bring home the Aero engine.  It's had literally thousands of hours of running at 5500 rpm in the Mideast "testing" program.  ;D 

Too bad instead of designing completely new 2 valve heads, they just didn't "test" the 4 valve heads in a similar fashion until all of the bugs were worked out of them. That could have changed the history of Guzzi - the whole V7 series, Breva onwards, might not have been considered "underpowered" or at least not by as much. 
Charlie

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #348 on: February 23, 2015, 06:03:46 PM »
Too bad instead of designing completely new 2 valve heads, they just didn't "test" the 4 valve heads in a similar fashion until all of the bugs were worked out of them. That could have changed the history of Guzzi - the whole V7 series, Breva onwards, might not have been considered "underpowered" or at least not by as much. 

Airplane engines are all about torque. I'm guessing that when they decided they needed more power in *that* application, they went with the proven big valves hemi head design. Of course, your guess is as good (or better) than mine when it comes to Guzzi.  ;D
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I think senility is going to be a fairly smooth transition for me..

Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #349 on: February 23, 2015, 07:17:33 PM »
All dynos are not created the same..

That is true.  The primary reason I'm going to Dyno her is to get the fuel mapping perfect.  Having a readout of the power and torque is incidental, but a nice bonus.  I have to say, she ran so good right from the start, I was really surprised!  I know the Auto tune will not change the map more than 20% at a time, so I must have been under that threshold with my target AFR.

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #350 on: February 23, 2015, 08:04:32 PM »
Too bad instead of designing completely new 2 valve heads, they just didn't "test" the 4 valve heads in a similar fashion until all of the bugs were worked out of them. That could have changed the history of Guzzi - the whole V7 series, Breva onwards, might not have been considered "underpowered" or at least not by as much. 

Yes... it seems they swept it under the rug pretty quickly.  If you saw their valves, their soft cams, their tight springs, you'd understand right away what's going on.  Add to that the happy wrist syndrome and things go kaboom.  It all makes perfect sense to me.  They have limiters now with FI and CAN use better metal (coatings) they didn't think to back in the day.  I can't imagine they'd use push rods these days, but they aint bad even at that.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #351 on: March 18, 2015, 09:12:35 AM »
Any more rides Mike? I'm smitten with FI 8 valve you've thought up. That video you shot tells it all. Straight up! How about more pics of the bike??
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #352 on: March 19, 2015, 08:48:54 PM »
Any more rides Mike? I'm smitten with FI 8 valve you've thought up. That video you shot tells it all. Straight up! How about more pics of the bike??
Ive been riding it every day its not raining or snowing.  Got about 400 miles on it since the conversion.  Todd @ Guzzitech has been a huge help getting the fuel dialed in.  I think it is just about perfect now.  Going to do an online tuning session this Saturday, and call it good.  It runs a lot better now, more power than before.  Thinking about borrowing a friends GoPro and doing another speed run this Saturday.  Think it will do 120 no problem, maybe bump 130.
I'll post it up for fun.  I'll go take a pic and post it.  I redid the tank paint, and put 750S decals on...I think it looks good now.
Cheers Man!

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #353 on: March 19, 2015, 09:13:12 PM »
Ive been riding it every day its not raining or snowing.  Got about 400 miles on it since the conversion.  Todd @ Guzzitech has been a huge help getting the fuel dialed in.  I think it is just about perfect now.  Going to do an online tuning session this Saturday, and call it good.  It runs a lot better now, more power than before.  Thinking about borrowing a friends GoPro and doing another speed run this Saturday.  Think it will do 120 no problem, maybe bump 130.
I'll post it up for fun.  I'll go take a pic and post it.  I redid the tank paint, and put 750S decals on...I think it looks good now.
Cheers Man!

Oh man, you have to post another run!  ;-T  Even at 120, that is a BIG bump from a stock 750. I wouldn't doubt you might pull more if your fueling is even better.  Good for you to get that many miles on it.  Pics, yes please.   
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #354 on: March 19, 2015, 10:36:49 PM »
I like the new side cover decals.  Man, living on this dirt road sucks.  The bike is always dirty.
Some cool additions I'm doing. Got some Racetech shocks coming, from Guzzitech.  Also got a Guzzitech exhaust coming.  Its going to be Cerakoated in velvet black.  Anybody want some free Agostinis?  Just donate to the forum an amount you deem appropriate, first person to speak up gets em....after I get my new pipes installed..lol  I'm going to hide those horns, dont like how they look.
Ok, some pics:


The next two pics kind of show how much bigger the new heads are, they are quite prominent compared to the two valve ones.  
 

« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 10:38:47 PM by mwrenn »

Offline Mayor_of_BBQ

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #355 on: March 20, 2015, 02:22:35 AM »
Tank paint & side over decals look sweet! Pm sent


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Re:
« Reply #356 on: March 20, 2015, 04:59:17 AM »
I'd love those pipes but I'd just horde them until I got a small block....

Offline twodogs

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #357 on: March 20, 2015, 05:48:23 AM »
I shot you a PM about your pipes, nice job on your V7 by the way :BEER:
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Offline sign216

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #358 on: March 20, 2015, 06:01:44 AM »
Terrific bike.  Can't wait to see a dyno.
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Offline mwrenn

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Re: V7 Classic with Lario heads
« Reply #359 on: March 20, 2015, 08:03:51 AM »
Mayor of BBQ jumped on it.  I'll ship them out when I get my new pipes installed.  Just make a nice donation to the board and we'll call it even. 
Cheers man!


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Harper's Moto Guzzi
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
http://www.harpermoto.com
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