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It's a prototype Ducati by Mariani according to "Dogwalker"This is the cut through - imagine this timing gear as the front look of a new 8V SB Guzzi mill :o Would only take new heads/pistons and a new timing cover.
Speaking of elegant and beautiful.. look at the casting for the 4V small block valve mechanism.. ;-T
That bevel drive is really expensive compared to a chain or belt drive. The latest chain drive MG is a very good design, IMHO. Water cooling is inevitable to meet emission regulations, and increase power with reduced fuel consumption.
This means that it would be possible to have an emission compliant small block 800cc, air-cooled, engine, with 80hp.
As said earlier, Piaggio Group chief engineer already stated that air cooled engine will survive the next emissions regulations (Euro-4 and Euro-5 have already been decided), even with a pratical limitation to 100 hp/l.This means that it would be possible to have an emission compliant small block 800cc, air-cooled, engine, with 80hp.So, it will be possible to do all the middleweight range, with the exception of the supersport, with one engine (enduro/crossover, sport naked, touring, supermotard...), just see what BMW and Ducati does with their 800cc engines of similar prestations, and with the advantage that the Guzzi engine would also be suitable, as is, for vintage and custom/cruiser bikes.Chain, or belt, drive are less expensive than bevel drive, but they require redesigning the basement, cause they must be placed behind the cylinders. In front, they are a too big aerodynamic obstacle.Bevel drive, as said, besides being beautiful and technically attractive, requires only the redesign of the heads and the front cover of the engine.So, "really expensive", what does it means for a mass produced engine, with components purchased in blocks of thousands? 50 Euros for engine? It could easily turn to be a saving. Actually, we see that bevel drive is used in the Kawasaki W800, that is not an expensive bike, for aestetic reasons only.
In another thread we read that MG is moving to liquid cooling. Actions speak louder than words,
You mention re-designing the "basement" as if that would only be neccessary for chain or belt. Doing so for a bevel drive will be much more complicated,
and if said bevel drive can be made at the front, so can chain and belt.
And really expensive does apply to bevel drive; there many more parts, some of them precision machined and adjusted, while none of that is needed for belt or chain. The Kawa engine uses one shaft and because they do use a shaft drive doesn't mean it's not expensive.
And the action is the California 1400 engine.Really, no. If you know the disposition of the SB engine placing a pair of shafts and bevel gears in front of the engine, does not require any redesign of the block.In fact the chain has been placed behind the cylinders in the new 4V. Chains and belts requires a box to contain them, placing it right in front of the cylinders means to greatly reduce the cooling. This does not apply, of course, to the shaft drive.A Bevel drive has many more parts than a chain drive? How many?And, so I asked, what does it means "really expensive"? have you an idea? I can see that the W800 use it, for aestetic reasons only, and it's not an expensive bike. So, how many $ for engine, for a mass produced engine?
A bevel drive has precision parts...
Bevel gears require precision mounting and adjustment, while chains and belts do not.
I very much doubt anything can be done to the existing block without a re-design, for certain a bevel drive could not be bolted onto existing structure.
Chains and belts can easily be run through passages created in existing parts, much the like we see pushrods running within the cylinder casting.
I know, thanks, so I asked: what does it means "really expensive"? have you an idea? How many $ for engine, for a mass produced engine? Since the existance of bevel drived bikes in the middle range market seems to demonstrate that producing them is not impossible, it would be interesting to know before to say it is too expensive to be produced.
Spiral bevel gears *are* very expensive to produce, and the manufacturing tolerance is much fussier. If Honda (or even Kawasaki) with their thousands of units produced were doing it, you might have an argument. With Guzzi's few hundred (in a good year) units, it would add *considerably* to the cost, IMHO. Just sayin..
I know, thanks, so I asked: what does it means "really expensive"? have you an idea? How many $ for engine, for a mass produced engine? Since the existance of bevel drived bikes in the middle range market seems to demonstrate that producing them is not impossible, it would be interesting to know before to say it is too expensive to be produced.Really? That's new. I had always thought that timing adjustement requires precision for chains and belts too.Really? Given that the bevel gear would be placed on the head of the existing camshaft, where once there was the distributor, why not?Since this would require to put a pair of sprockets inside the engine (a very compact and "crowded" one like the SB), where today there is none, I do not see it that simple.
Which model Guzzi engine had the distibutor mounted on the camshaft? None I know of.
You obvioulsy know little about gear trains, so get yourself educated and get back to us when you have.
I don't see a distributor in the photos.
Here's a photo of a Ducati timing chest-As I stated earlier, your knowledge of gear trains is far from complete.
Then the bevel gear can not be put there for a matter of semantics? Must be a new field of mechanics.Sorry, but that photo is not an argument. You can see another interpretation of the same subject in Mariani's prototype above. there is no reason for the bevel gear to be attached directly to the crankshaft. Is only one of the possible choices.
You were quite happy to post a photo to support your erroneous opinion.
You don't understand the basic definitions of engine architecture.
I thought you might have understood what I was talking about anyway. Unfortunately, it seems that dialectical questions continue to interest you more than mechanical ones.So, can you tell me a reason for which a bevel gear can not be placed there (the fact that in an Ducati engine was in another place, is not a big reason)?So far, it does not seem to me that you brought much to support your points.
I already explained why.
I don't think mwrenn is looking to put bevel drive on his SB, just Lario heads. You guys probably need to start a thread! :-*
LMAO! Thanks for that. Its funny, all the talk of bevel drives, water cooling etc...I like Guzzi's because they are dead simple, easy to work on, and easy to become passionate about. Guess I'm just old school that way. I'd take a Pratt&Whitney R985 over a PT6A-67 anyday! Pushrod actuated valves and aircooling has worked for a lot of years. I'm all about improving things, but there is something to be said for proven designs that work. And that are economical to modify...LOL
There. Fixed it for ya!
That is a good point Brian. Just my opinion, but I think the design is sound, I believe it was more the materials that were used to assemble the original bikes that was the problem. Cam wear and valve breakage caused by increased spring pressure, which was necessary to stop valve float at high rpm. To be frank, what I'm doing on my project is really only part of a fix. After all, I'm going to be limited on the RPM to 7600, and to really make power I should be turning up to 9000 or so. I am attempting to make a reliable engine though, so I will keep the rpm's down. I think with the Ferrea super alloy valves I'm installing, the DLC coating on the cam and lifters, and bronze guides in the heads, I will be ok. I guess we will see...LOL I have all the parts ordered now, its just a matter of waiting for them to arrive, and then shipping out the heads, cam and lifters for work. ;-T ;-T ;-T