Author Topic: Aero engine rescue  (Read 398650 times)

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #210 on: November 21, 2014, 03:29:14 PM »
having to make a new cam just for the tach? It might be cheaper to get someone build an electronic in the white face housing. Like the internals of the daytona or sport 1100 tacho. Is that the tacho like the le mans 3 also has?
Paul

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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #211 on: November 21, 2014, 03:42:50 PM »
having to make a new cam just for the tach?

Might not the "aero engine" need a different cam anyway? Cam profiles are likely optimized for full power operation at the expense of everything else.
Charlie

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #212 on: November 21, 2014, 03:54:41 PM »
Might not the "aero engine" need a different cam anyway? Cam profiles are likely optimized for full power operation at the expense of everything else.

That wouldn't surprise me, but *I don't know.* All I've found out is it cruises at 5500 rpm in the drone. Apparently it is "different," though. It doesn't look like a V75 cam from the pictures I've seen, and definitely not an older small block cam.
Maybe a Megacycle V65 cam would do the job? Got one?  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #213 on: November 21, 2014, 05:44:37 PM »
That wouldn't surprise me, but *I don't know.* All I've found out is it cruises at 5500 rpm in the drone. Apparently it is "different," though. It doesn't look like a V75 cam from the pictures I've seen, and definitely not an older small block cam.
Maybe a Megacycle V65 cam would do the job? Got one?  ;D

Why not run it with OE trigger and aftermarket box as paul suggested (my ECU in Oz makes these too with various curves), see how it runs first ?
Then, if not ideal, could be horrible at low revs but can't know till you try, take cam to grinder with a std V65 one work with him to get ideal cam profile on one with tacho drive
If it's perfect power delivery, get an electronic triggered white face tach, probably cheaper and way simpler.

On cam grinders, I had a customer who wanted more up top than my normal profile gives, we took dyno sheet to Clive, he drew new lines , ground a new cam, I fitted (and dialled it in).
New Dyno run exactly as he drew, robbed some mid range, stuck it on the top, customer happy.

Much better then guessing at a cam from another engine, if I had to guess at profile it would be from a BB but seriously cam grinders do this every day, no-one AFAIK has ever put one of these donks in a bike so without testing you really don't know what you're starting with.

And
I'm impatient, could be running in a week

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #213 on: November 21, 2014, 05:44:37 PM »

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #214 on: November 21, 2014, 06:30:46 PM »
Thanks for that, Martin.. I'll give it some consideration.
Quote
I'm impatient, could be running in a week
Not a chance. Don't have carbs sourced yet, not to mention an electronic magic box. And... with the aero engine front casting to use the stock pickup, the alternator and associated electronics would be hanging out in the breeze. Fine on an airplane but not so good on the ground.  ;)
I'm pretty patient.  ;D You've gotta remember that I took 12 years  :o to build an airplane. I want to get it running pretty soon, though. I"d like to get started on my last airplane project yet this winter.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #215 on: November 21, 2014, 06:59:45 PM »
Thanks for that, Martin.. I'll give it some consideration.Not a chance. Don't have carbs sourced yet, not to mention an electronic magic box. And... with the aero engine front casting to use the stock pickup, the alternator and associated electronics would be hanging out in the breeze. Fine on an airplane but not so good on the ground.  ;)
I'm pretty patient.  ;D You've gotta remember that I took 12 years  :o to build an airplane. I want to get it running pretty soon, though. I"d like to get started on my last airplane project yet this winter.


Doesn't front cover from V65 above fit holes ?
Alloy ones of them available too on this page
http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Shnew=&Model=&ModelName=All+Models&Cat=ENA&CatName=Engines

plastic spacer behind it can be doubled up if you need more clearance for trigger

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #216 on: November 21, 2014, 07:32:03 PM »
Ok, as long as we're killing time, lets show someone that randomly searches for "small block clutch" how to change out the clutch plate. It's ridiculously easy compared to a big block. No special tools involved.
Remove the 6 bolts that hold the clutch assembly together in a cross pattern. No need to warp things.. this is on the new engine, but you get the idea.

As the bolts get loose, the clutch plate will become loose. Just take the whole thing down. No springs falling out, special tools, etc.

You *won't* need to mess with this, but the Aero engine didn't have the center piece that the clutch pushrod pushes against. It's held in by the Snap Ring From Hell.

After getting the SRFH out, a magnet will pull the center plate.

So, I put the center plate in the Aero engine since it's no longer going to be an Aero engine and fought the Snap Ring From Hell again. *You* can ignore this.  ;D
Clean the ring gear and pressure plate with lacquer thinner. Keep your greasy fingers off your new clutch plate.

Install the new plate, and lightly tighten the 6 screws. At this point, you can use your special Guzzi Clutch Assembly Tool, cleverly designed as a beater screwdriver to center the plate.  :o Eyeball *is* good enough. The human eye is very good at seeing concentric circles. That is how peep sights on a rifle work.

Just for grins, I measured the gap around the two pieces. It was within .002" of .115" all the way around. Plenty close enough for this kind of thing.

Now. It takes 20 minutes for Locktite to cure, so you have 19 minutes.  ;D
Take out one bolt at a time, put some locktite on each.. a little dab will do ya, Joe.. ;) until you have some on each one, and run them in using a cross pattern with your ratchet wrench until they are snug.

Torque, using a cross pattern again, to 8 newton meters, then 10 NM. Bask in the glow of another job well done.

That's all there is to it. Small blocks are easy.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #217 on: November 21, 2014, 07:39:12 PM »

Doesn't front cover from V65 above fit holes ?
Alloy ones of them available too on this page
http://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Shnew=&Model=&ModelName=All+Models&Cat=ENA&CatName=Engines

plastic spacer behind it can be doubled up if you need more clearance for trigger

Yeah, it does, but the cam oil seal doesn't. I know.. no hill for a climber, and could no doubt source a custom oil seal. The Aero trigger is too wide to fit behind it, at any rate. By a lot. If you look back through the original pictures, it's shown.  I'm emailing back and forth with Milich as we speak trying to source stuff.  Patience is its own reward, they say.. ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #218 on: November 21, 2014, 07:46:45 PM »
having to make a new cam just for the tach? It might be cheaper to get someone build an electronic in the white face housing. Like the internals of the daytona or sport 1100 tacho. Is that the tacho like the le mans 3 also has?
Sorry, Paul, I missed your question. Yes. Same tach and instrument cluster. It's a Guzzi, after all.. ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #219 on: November 21, 2014, 08:45:00 PM »
Yeah, it does, but the cam oil seal doesn't. I know.. no hill for a climber, and could no doubt source a custom oil seal. The Aero trigger is too wide to fit behind it, at any rate. By a lot. If you look back through the original pictures, it's shown.  I'm emailing back and forth with Milich as we speak trying to source stuff.  Patience is its own reward, they say.. ;D



Misunderstanding
I meant the final alternator / ig cover, originally plastic
Keep the aero inside timing chest, cam seal ig trigger etc, just fit the bosch alternator and cover, this one

2 or 3 spacers behind if depth of trigger an issue but looks to be inside inner case to me

Offline Tazturtle

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #220 on: November 21, 2014, 09:00:30 PM »
Good on you Chuck. You do the *best* interesting how-to threads!!!

Kurt
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Offline pauldaytona

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #221 on: November 22, 2014, 03:36:11 AM »
Chuck since you can CNC, you could make a thick gasket to fit the cover. It looks like the timing wheel you have ion the nose of the cam, is to mimic the cam sensor and flycwheel sensor the p7/p8 normaly uses, so then an ignition for the same setup should be easy. Other thing could be to read the eprom from your injection box them you get ignition curves. I'm shure there is someone with a reader anywhere in the USA on the board. The eprom is pretty simple. 
Paul

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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #222 on: November 22, 2014, 07:10:35 AM »
Good on you Chuck. You do the *best* interesting how-to threads!!!

Kurt

Thanks, Kurt.  ;D *real* mechanics don't have time to stop and take pictures. I'm doing it because when I search for how to do something on the small block I can't find much. There are quite a few things on the big block.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #223 on: November 22, 2014, 07:26:39 AM »
Chuck since you can CNC, you could make a thick gasket to fit the cover. It looks like the timing wheel you have ion the nose of the cam, is to mimic the cam sensor and flycwheel sensor the p7/p8 normaly uses, so then an ignition for the same setup should be easy. Other thing could be to read the eprom from your injection box them you get ignition curves. I'm shure there is someone with a reader anywhere in the USA on the board. The eprom is pretty simple. 

Agreed, but since this is *not* a parts bin cam, I'm betting that a stock V65 cam would be better suited for a motorcycle. Airplane engines are normally tuned for maximum torque at cruising rpm. That is 5500-6000 rpm on this engine. Low end torque may (or may not) have been sacrificed to do this. At any rate, various cams are available for the V65, I can retain my mechanical tach drive, and Dyna S which I already have. Unless, of course when I open it up I find the case isn't compatible with the old Guzzi cam. Time will tell, and thanks again!

This project just slid to the back burner, so to speak. Our electric range just blew up last night, and we'll be switching to gas. If it isn't one thing, it's two..  ::)  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #224 on: November 22, 2014, 08:38:40 PM »
Chuck since you can CNC, you could make a thick gasket to fit the cover. It looks like the timing wheel you have ion the nose of the cam, is to mimic the cam sensor and flycwheel sensor the p7/p8 normaly uses, so then an ignition for the same setup should be easy. Other thing could be to read the eprom from your injection box them you get ignition curves. I'm shure there is someone with a reader anywhere in the USA on the board. The eprom is pretty simple. 

No gasket needed, oil seal is behind cam trigger and alternator rotor, both are dry
This spacer goes between covers to get cooling airflow, cutting hole in top or  fitting two easy if trigger clearance is issue-- but looks ok in picture

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #225 on: November 23, 2014, 05:29:00 AM »
No gasket needed, oil seal is behind cam trigger and alternator rotor, both are dry
This spacer goes between covers to get cooling airflow, cutting hole in top or  fitting two easy if trigger clearance is issue-- but looks ok in picture


As they say on the tee bee commercial, "everybody knows that."  ;D The cover and spacer won't fit on the Aero engine accessory housing, though.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline Dogwalker

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #226 on: November 23, 2014, 10:26:59 AM »
So you need a standard SB distribution cover (but without knowing if the oil seals are apt to the aero engine shaft, and having to give up the original timing sensors), or make a new alternator cover by yourself.


Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #227 on: November 23, 2014, 11:36:36 AM »
So you need a standard SB distribution cover (but without knowing if the oil seals are apt to the aero engine shaft, and having to give up the original timing sensors), or make a new alternator cover by yourself.



Yes, I'm planning on using the Lario cover. Upon further review, my apologies to Martin, the stock cover *will* fit the aero engine casting, but I'm still going to use the Lario casting so I can have the tach drive.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #228 on: November 23, 2014, 07:02:47 PM »
Yes, I'm planning on using the Lario cover. Upon further review, my apologies to Martin, the stock cover *will* fit the aero engine casting, but I'm still going to use the Lario casting so I can have the tach drive.


I thought it looked same pattern, I'd have to run as is first to test cam 's useability, conjecture about how it will run , answered, using programmable black box with aero trigger a quick easy way to get running.
Fitting points in there prob not too difficult either

Using cam profile for small valve heron heads or 4 valve is never going to be perfect, if you must go straight for tacho drive, I'd talk to cam grinder about what you have first, to do it right you have to measure valve-valve and valve piston clearances, then you'll want to measure spring tension, total can of worms with no baseline unless you've run what you have.

Putting electronic tach inside analogue body doable too I'm sure, lot less mucking about than designing a cam if aero one is already the dog's

Range converted already ? You work fast

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #229 on: November 24, 2014, 08:01:11 AM »

I thought it looked same pattern, I'd have to run as is first to test cam 's useability, conjecture about how it will run , answered, using programmable black box with aero trigger a quick easy way to get running.

A man's got to know his limitations.  ;D Electronics are one of mine, and I don't know any one that could help me out with that.
Fitting points in there prob not too difficult either

Using cam profile for small valve heron heads or 4 valve is never going to be perfect, if you must go straight for tacho drive, I'd talk to cam grinder about what you have first, to do it right you have to measure valve-valve and valve piston clearances, then you'll want to measure spring tension, total can of worms with no baseline unless you've run what you have.

I've been emailing Milich back and forth. He thinks I should start with a stock V65 cam and go from there. At any rate, I need to clay up the piston and check clearances. I suppose I should also beg, borrow or make a degree wheel and have a go at checking this cam's timing. I've never done that before. I'm a parts changer.  ;D I have timed the old 4 valve cams, but the "book" was right in front of me with how to do it.

Putting electronic tach inside analogue body doable too I'm sure, lot less mucking about than designing a cam if aero one is already the dog's
A man's got to know....  ;)

Range converted already ? You work fast

I'm dealing with "other people" on that project, so no telling when they will get around to setting a propane tank, running lines, etc. I hate to depend on "other people." It's part of my hesitance to run the electronic ignition from half way around the world with no experience in setting it up..
Thanks, again.

Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #230 on: November 24, 2014, 03:51:46 PM »
I know someone who just welded the cam nose for the tacho on a non tacho cam, that was on a v11 cam, looks similar construction. Tacho gear just needs to be straight, no force on it.
Paul

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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #231 on: November 24, 2014, 06:11:26 PM »
I know someone who just welded the cam nose for the tacho on a non tacho cam, that was on a v11 cam, looks similar construction. Tacho gear just needs to be straight, no force on it.

You know, that's in the finest tradition of bodging a Guzzi.  ;D ;-T I could do that.. Seriously, I'll think about it. All it would take would be to bore the end of the "weird" cam on center, cut off the end of the Lario cam, stick that sucker in there, and weld it.  ;-T Well, it would have to be pretty close to the right orientation.  ;) My steam powered ISP is apparently out of coal, so internet access has been *really* spotty for me. I'm just now getting some messages or PMs, but keep them coming.  Wasted another day not working on this, but maybe tomorrow...
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #232 on: November 24, 2014, 07:49:47 PM »
For programmable box, try Cliff (MYECU) in Sydney but I'm sure there are plenty of others in US, was someone on here flogging spark boxes not long ago.

Welding cam nose is sensible but I'd be running that cam (with electronic or no tacho) first, if it is good, camweld can be done, if not reprofile the tacho cam with knowledge of what you have.

Thing might be perfect, it might not, keep Lario cam whole till you know.

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #233 on: November 24, 2014, 09:23:42 PM »
No way I'd cut a (rare) Lario cam, maybe sacrifice a lesser (V50) cam instead.
Charlie

Offline Dogwalker

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #234 on: November 25, 2014, 03:58:34 AM »
Moto Guzzi use the same cam profile for the heron head (who breathe worse than the aero engine) and for the 4 valves (who breathe better), so tu use them for the hemi heads, as a starting point, seems correct.

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #235 on: November 25, 2014, 06:26:34 AM »
No way I'd cut a (rare) Lario cam, maybe sacrifice a lesser (V50) cam instead.

Me either. V65 cams are pretty common, though. No time to look at it again today.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Online huub

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #236 on: November 25, 2014, 05:34:38 PM »
the lario cam is nothing special, just a v65 cam.
considering they used the same camshaft on the two valve heads, and on the four valve heads i would be amazed if they made a special camshaft for the aero engine.



Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #237 on: November 25, 2014, 05:41:01 PM »
the lario cam is nothing special, just a v65 cam.
considering they used the same camshaft on the two valve heads, and on the four valve heads i would be amazed if they made a special camshaft for the aero engine.



When I get around to it..  ::) I'm going to degree both and see if there's a difference. Should at least add a little to the collective knowledge. It certainly has a different nose, though.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #238 on: November 25, 2014, 06:33:48 PM »
the lario cam is nothing special, just a v65 cam.
considering they used the same camshaft on the two valve heads, and on the four valve heads i would be amazed if they made a special camshaft for the aero engine.




Must be something different about it, it has a different part number.
Charlie

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #239 on: November 25, 2014, 07:58:56 PM »
When I get around to it..  ::) I'm going to degree both and see if there's a difference. Should at least add a little to the collective knowledge. It certainly has a different nose, though.

Quick test before you need wheel
one rocker arm off measure lift at pushrod with dial gauge
Do same to Lario (or measure lift of cam on bench)

That'll tell you if identical. Not impossible to have same lift and different duration/timing but unlikely.
Could measure overlap (lift of in and exhaust at TDC) to confirm.
Then if you really want the picture, find exact spot of peak lift for all four lobes of each and total duration of all (at 1mm or 040" )

I'm very surprised that Lario had same profile as V65 but seem to remember reading here there are early and late Lario cams (bigger base circle?) could be part number difference.




 

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