Aero engine rescue

[normzone]

" Actually, I have a close relationship with Sierra Nevada, and I'm sworn to secrecy "

Well then, that's all I can ask for. Don't tell me any more, I'm not cleared for it.

[Triple Jim]

Grind it so the point touches first, then the outer flutes. It will center on the point, then the outer flutes will start cutting, make a round hole, and won't grab. Your insurance carrier will thank me.  ;)

That type of point works a lot better on wood than a standard 118° or 135° point too.

[oldmxdog61u]

I love Sierra nevada pale ale, almost as much as any of chucks wonderful threads! :bow

[LowRyter]

Actually, I have a close relationship with Sierra Nevada, and I'm sworn to secrecy, other than they give me empty pushrod boxes.. ;D

SNC?  Oddly enough a couple of my platforms are listed on their website. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

I love Sierra nevada pale ale, almost as much as any of chucks wonderful threads! :bow

Thankya thankya.  ;D Sierra Nevada doesn't make a bad beer. Take your pick, it will be true to style.  They are no longer a "craft brewer" (too big) but still do a great job. ;-T Unfortunately, they are high in calories and carbs, so*I* can't have them as an "every day" brew. <sigh> YMMV, of course.  ;D

[jacksonracingcomau]

Well, every skilled tradesman knows that “There’s never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it over".  ;D I originally thought that I’d just do a quick check and see if the two cams were similar. No real need to do it right.. but I wasn’t getting repeatable results.
So I decided to do it right this morning.
Lario:
Exhaust Opens 45 degrees BDDC Max lift .234”@73 degrees ABDC. Closes 10 degrees ATDC. Overlap .077 at TDC
Intake Opens 8 degrees BTDC Max lift .234”@ 106 Degrees ATDC. Closes 45 degrees ABDC Overlap .073 at TDC.
Aero engine:
Exhaust opens 44 degrees BBDC Max lift .255” @ 72 degrees ABDC. Closes 8 degrees ATDC. Overlap .075 at TDC.
Intake opens 9 degrees BTDC. Max lift .255 @ 106 degrees ATDC. Closes 44 degrees ABDC. Overlap .073 at TDC.

Something funny going on here

Well, I have some free time this morning, so time for some more small block porn. Pull the rockers..

Torque her down, and have a look at TDC. .160” on the intake, .206 on the exhaust. I’m not sure what that tells us, but thought I oughta do it..  ;D


Yep. .065”  :o Probably a good thing I just didn’t drop that cam with 2mm more lift in it.

  Looks like a V65 cam is in our future.

Either rocker ratio is way different inlet & exhaust or something has changed, you had .002" difference at TDC at pushrods and now .046" difference at valves.

Methinks the wheel has moved (or the fairies moved it)


But .065" is plenty of clearance (.040" is enought IMHO), extra 2mm on Ed's cam is not at TDC but at peak, get figures at TDC to compare with yours, may still go in without seating valves further.
Check valve to piston too
MH

[Chuck in Indiana]

Something funny going on here

Either rocker ratio is way different inlet & exhaust or something has changed, you had .002" difference at TDC at pushrods and now .046" difference at valves.

Methinks the wheel has moved (or the fairies moved it)


But .065" is plenty of clearance (.040" is enought IMHO), extra 2mm on Ed's cam is not at TDC but at peak, get figures at TDC to compare with yours, may still go in without seating valves further.
Check valve to piston too
MH

Thanks. First, let me say that what I don't know about valve train dynamics would fill several volumes.  ;D
Rocker ratio wouldn't have anything to do with it. The rockers weren't even on it for that check. I just *assumed* the difference was the diameter of the valves.
Agreed, .065" is plenty, from what I've read .040" is about minimum. Still..  The "performance" V65 cam has 2 mm more lift and 10 degrees more duration. I'm guessing they would be close, but I'll investigate farther today.

[Chuck in Indiana]

House cleaning day today, so I’ve been banished to the shop.  ;-T  I’m going to have a look at the Lario cam in case it’s usable. Why not? I have one.. Pulled the oil pan.

Jeeeze zus. Not only did the DPO not repair the cylinder damage before putting it back together, he didn’t even bother to clean the broken piston parts out of the pan. This had to be at least the second time it blew up,.. see the screen? It’s upside down. There are no tabs for the lock plate to set against. The O ring? Spare parts.. ;D
Cleaned it up and turned the screen over..

Ok, lets get this cam out of there. Disclaimer: I’ve never done this on a small block, either. Blindly forging ahead and using the Special Guzzi Tool cleverly disguised as needle nose vise grips to take the tension off the timing chain.

Just one screw holds the tensioner in. A clever design, and better than the big blocks, IHMO. Take it off, remove the two bolts that hold the cam gear on and the nut that holds the oil pump gear. Hmmm, they should pull right off, but the cam sprocket doesn’t want to move with some careful tapping and prying. Buffalo to the rescue. Fortunately it didn’t take much..

This tiny pin drives it. Probably should keep track of that.  ;D

A magnet will get it.

Put the chain, sprockets, hardware, etc. in a bag to keep track of them.
After pulling all that you can see the cam. Notice the dot that lines up with the dot on the crank sprocket. This how the cam is timed.

Almost there. Take all the tension off the pushrods by loosening the valve train. Remove the oil pressure sender. Trust me.  ;D Turn the engine upside down so the lifters don’t fall into the crankcase. Gravity is your friend.  ;D Pull the cam out. Nothing to it.

Here, you can see the bearing on the rear of the cam that the oil pressure sender fits into. This controls the fore and aft movement of the cam. Pretty clever. Now you know why you never turn the engine over without having the oil pressure sender installed.

Take the cam to the wash tank and clean it up for inspection. Feeling pretty good about this, but like Wiley Coyote.. uh oh. See the light reflecting on the cam lobe? It should be straight. She’s dead, Jim.  ;) If you have a very small boat, it will make a fine anchor, though.. Three out of four ain’t bad..

Dang! I wanted to use it. Oh, well.
Let’s see if we can get rid of this sump extender with oil cooler outlets. If there’s anything a Guzzi *doesn’t* need it’s cooler oil. Obviously, as an aero engine that runs at or nearly at full throttle all the time, an oil cooler is a good thing. I don’t want it. Ugly. The pan would hang out the bottom and I couldn’t use the Lario chin fairing. I know.. it’s just styling, but I like the looks of it, just as I like the big white Veglia tach. If I can make it happen, it’s history. Remove the bolts around the periphery of the oil pan, and this big booger. I’m assuming it’s a banjo bolt.

Yep. The spacer comes off. Here’s a picture of it. The machined piece looks like a pressure relief valve, which you would  expect.

Now, if Guzzi just pulled a case off the line.. and the drilled and tapped hole for the normal pressure relief valve is in the casting.. we’re golden. I’d really like to not drill and tap if I don’t have to.
Oh, yeah..  ;D ;D

All we have to do is remove the valve from the Lario.. simple.

And replace the plug with it. Uh, oh. It’s not budging, even with a big breaker bar. I’m betting they used that green lock tite that I use when I never ever want a fastener to come loose ever again. (!)  :o I don’t blame them. If it backs off, the engine loses oil pressure, and they get a nasty gram from the DOD, or whoever is using this drone.
So. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

There is enough heat  available here to melt the freakin casting. A little care is in order. <shrug> Shield the casting. Keep the heat on the bolt. When smoke starts to curl around the bolt, the thread locker is melting. Do not waste any time. Get the rattle gun on the bolt and rattle it out.
Whew! Nothing to it..  ;D

A shop vac will get rid of the dried thread locker.
Clean the Lario pressure relief valve with your favorite solvent, and put some removable  ;) thread locker on it. Torque it down, and this job is done.

Might as well put the Aero engine sans spacer oil pan on the engine, but danged if it isn’t 100 mm deeper. That sounds like a good thing to me, but now the Lario oil filter bolt is 100 mm too short. Probably I need to source a bolt that is 100 mm longer, and make a 100 mm spacer to use the OEM oil filter. Am I missing something?
That’s it for today. Getting really close to putting it back in the bike. I have a stock V65 cam located unless someone can talk me out of it. Anyone? I’m not above putting a “performance” cam in it…just don’t want to blow up this unobtainium stuff..

[normzone]

Very cool - thank you for all the images and the tale.

Brings back memories of my first Eldo surgery, and drives home how unprepared I am to perform such surgery these days.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Yep. The spacer comes off. Here’s a picture of it. The machined piece looks like a pressure relief valve, which you would  expect.

Looks like there's a difference in the lower half (at least) of the crankcase. Compare the pan gaskets:



Maybe you'll have to plug that hole the "big banjo bolt" came out of ?

[Vasco DG]

It seems to be related to the oil cooler plumbing. Better work out the oil route exactly to make sure nothing dreadful occurs on start up!

Pete

[pauldaytona]

doesn't the aero valve fit in the other place(where the lario valve is). Might be other pressure it is set for.

[Chuck in Indiana]

doesn't the aero valve fit in the other place(where the lario valve is). Might be other pressure it is set for.

No, it's too long.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Looks like there's a difference in the lower half (at least) of the crankcase. Compare the pan gaskets:



Maybe you'll have to plug that hole the "big banjo bolt" came out of ?

That makes sense, Charlie. I'll have a *really* good look at it when I get the new oil filter, longer bolt, etc. At the time, I was more concerned about whether that boss for the regular relief valve would be drilled and tapped.

[Chuck in Indiana]

It seems to be related to the oil cooler plumbing. Better work out the oil route exactly to make sure nothing dreadful occurs on start up!

Pete

"What's that sound??"  ;D

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

doesn't the aero valve fit in the other place(where the lario valve is). Might be other pressure it is set for.

Might be a good idea to test the "blow-off" pressure of the two OPRVs in case the aero engine one is different.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Might be a good idea to test the "blow-off" pressure of the two OPRVs in case the aero engine one is different.

I mean absolutely no disrespect, Charlie, far from it, but what would be the point? I *assume* the Lario one isn't adjustable?

[Dick]

"What's that sound??"  ;D

Everybody look - what's going down?  ;D

[Dick]

I mean absolutely no disrespect, Charlie, far from it, but what would be the point? I *assume* the Lario one isn't adjustable?

It looks similar to a big block type, which are adjustable via shims. Looks can be deceiving. :) I'm the paranoid type, so would probably heed Charlie's advice. Nice write up with pics., BTW.

[Chuck in Indiana]

It seems to be related to the oil cooler plumbing. Better work out the oil route exactly to make sure nothing dreadful occurs on start up!

Pete

Yeah, on the Lario, the oil goes from the sump through the screen to the pump which fills the oil filter cavity, then on to the mains and cam bearings. The Aero engine *apparently* goes from the sump through the screen to the pump then through the big banjo bolt through the oil cooler, then fills the oil filter cavity, etc. The gallery from the pump to the filter cavity is blocked off on the Aero engine. Probably with the thread locker from hell.. ~;
I'll pull the pump on the aero engine when I get around to it to make sure. Thanks!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Oh, and to you heavy hitters that have weighed in on this.. Thanks.  ;-T You've forgotten more about Guzzis than I will ever know.  :bow

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I mean absolutely no disrespect, Charlie, far from it, but what would be the point? I *assume* the Lario one isn't adjustable?

Looks like it comes apart. Likely the same as a Big Block one, adjustment is done by adding and removing shims. Probably fits the same test rig I made for BB Tontis and Loops.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Looks like it comes apart. Likely the same as a Big Block one, adjustment is done by adding and removing shims. Probably fits the same test rig I made for BB Tontis and Loops.

You mean I have to b bbb buy a M14 X 1.5 tap?  ;D This project's getting expensive.. I have every 'Merican tap and die known to man. Well, almost.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

You mean I have to b bbb buy a M14 X 1.5 tap?  ;D This project's getting expensive.. I have every 'Merican tap and die known to man. Well, almost.

Naw, just make a PVC test rig and melt the threads in.  ;D (I too thought that was very ingenious). 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Naw, just make a PVC test rig and melt the threads in.  ;D (I too thought that was very ingenious). 

 ;D ;D  ;-T

[zedXmick]

Wish you were Chuck in Wisconsin  ;D  I wouldn't hesitate about getting a "fixer up ran the last time it was parked,barn find Guzzi" with you in my state.   Love this thread. ;-T

[Chuck in Indiana]

I've been playing nurse while Dorcia recovers from her surgery, so haven't had any time to hang out in the shop. Her sister came over yesterday afternoon, so I had a couple of hours. Dave Blue fixed me up with a V65 cam, so it's time to start finishing this sucker up.  To you guys (and girls) that know how to do this stuff.. bear with me. Like the Lario rehab thread, this is for someone (like me) that’s never seen the inside of a small block or done some of these things.
First, we'll take off the timing chain tensioner.. Dammit, Luigi! Apparently he used a powered driver that was still turning when he pulled it out of the screw.. not a prayer of getting it loose with a normal allen wrench.

Naturally, I tried to pull the sprockets and chain without removing it. No cigar. <sigh>  Fortunately, I made this tool for my antique (why are all my tools antiques? I bought most of them new??)  ;D impact driver.

But first.. here’s a peen punch. Nothing more than a drill blank with a hand ground and  polished radius on the end.  Peen the head of that boogered up cap screw with it to cold form some material back into the hex. A copper hammer won’t chip the hardened end of the punch which would immediately make a bee line for your eye.

 Drive the tool in with your copper hammer.. you do have one, don’t you? , and set the impact driver on it.

Hold  pressure to the left.. lefty looseny..  ;)  and smack the driver with the copper hammer. The impact driver is nothing more than a cam that turns the end of the driver a few degrees with every swat. The downward pressure from the hammer keeps the tool in the screw head. Simple, and super effective. You need one.
Nothing to it.. as I’ve mentioned before, having the right tool is the biggest part of the job.

Now, we can  pull the chain, sprockets, and the little drive pin off and bag em. That’s already been documented.. no need of doing that again. What I’m wanting to do is look at the oil pump cavity and see where it’s pumping the oil. On the stock small block, the pump pulls it out of the pan, and it immediately goes to the oil filter chamber, then on to the bearings, etc. The lower crankcase casting is different on the aero engine, and if I want to get rid of the giant sump spacer complete with oil cooler lines (I do) I’d better make damn sure that I know what’s going on. The Aero engine sends oil directly from the pump through the big banjo bolt through the cooler, to the filter cavity. I just wanted to make absolutely sure that was the only difference. It is.  ;D Here’s a picture of the oil pump mounting. Probing the galleries says it’s same same..

This is the gallery that is normally open. It goes directly from the pump to the oil filter. See the allen head set screw that it’s plugged with? No doubt, it’s installed with the Thread Locker From Hell, too.

In the worst case, I have extension drills, and I know how to use them..  ;D but first, let’s try the impact driver. Fortunately, the tool I made is “just” long enough. So….
Get everything lined up, give it a good smack, and I can feel it turn a little. <James Brown/1 > I FEEL GOOD na da na da na da da <James Brown/0> Many swats later, it came out. No drilling required.

Q tips, solvent, compressed air are our friend. Clean up everything, including the oil pump. It’s the heart of any engine, and really needs to be looked at. Naturally, I forgot to take a picture of the exploded view. It’s in the manual, along with tolerances. Since it is basically new, I didn’t measure anything, but if you are overhauling a used engine, it’s critically important.
This is a mix of  Redline 15-50 and STP. I apply it liberally on working parts before assembly.

Install the pump, and torque it to 7 ft. lbs. I’m using removable lock tite on all internal fasteners.

Now the only thing left is to plug the tapped hole that originally went to the oil cooler. Checking the threads, it’s M18X1.5. Hmmmm. Looking in my industrial supplier catalog, everything jumps from M16 to M20. Uh oh.. Oh, here’s one! Minimum order 50 pieces @  $12 hundred and…. Never mind. Time to go the internet. Googling M18X1.5 doesn’t bring up much, but one of the ads says drain plug. Called the local automotive parts store and asked if they had one. “What’s it fit on?” You know the drill..  ;D I just asked if they would go and look at their drain plugs. “Yep, got one. $2.99.  ;D ;D The internet can be a wonderful thing.

A circle template and scalpel..


Some more blue lock tite, torque it down to 30 ft. lbs, and “King, this case is closed.”
Now we can install the cam. More as I get to it..

[Chuck in Indiana]

Alrighty, let's swap cams.
Loosen the oil pressure sender

Pull the rockers and pushrods

V65 cam checks 1.047" The Aero cam is 1.068", just what you'd expect with .021" less lift on the V65 cam.

Here's the stuff for installing a cam. It's an extreme pressure lube, and important to use.

Neatness doesn't count. Cam Guard on the lobes, oil/STP mix on everything else..

Rotate the hole on the cam bushing to vertical, slide the cam in, and install the oil pressure sender.
Cam installed, complete with gear drive for my big white Veglia tach.  ;D
Edit: Oops, forgot to insert the last picture..

No telling when I'll get back to it, so bagged everything with a trash bag.

[LowRyter]

best wishes to Dorcia

[Chuck in Indiana]

best wishes to Dorcia

Thanks, John.. she's doing great. The cutters did a nice job. Pathology report was supposed to be here yesterday.. but they're backed up.  ::)