Author Topic: Aero engine rescue  (Read 398539 times)

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #840 on: March 20, 2015, 07:14:59 AM »
What makes you think it is not the stud pulling out of the block?

That's what I'm *really* worried about. The stud isn't turning now, though..just the nut.
After sleeping on it, I decided to weld the nut to the stud and see if I can back it out of the case. If so, depending on what the stud looks like, I'll just put it back in, torque it down and forget it. If I can't back it out, it'll be a major tear down anyway to put a thread insert in the case, so I wouldn't mind grinding off the nut.
Unless somebody says, "I wouldn't do that, and here's why.."  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #841 on: March 20, 2015, 07:18:20 AM »
I'm surprised that is an M8 stud.  Figured it would be a 10 MM.  I have some spare 4130 chromemoly cold rolled m8 and m10 studs, in various lengths.  Might just have what you need.  Let me know if you need one.

This is the top center stud that normally is the short one on a small block. On the Aero engine, it goes clear through the rocker pedestal.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline johnr

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #842 on: March 20, 2015, 07:33:58 AM »
I wouldn't do that and her's why.

Firstly, Do we know that it was the stud that turned when you torqued it up? (that wasn't clear to me. ) If not, then I would do it up with a ring spanner so I could check. 

If the stud does not turn when you check, then I would remove the nut in the hope that the stud was undamaged. A nut spliter would be ideal, but as I don't have one I would probably try and do something totally shade tree like try to put some upward pressure under the nut with a screw driver while gently undoing it with a an open ender.

If the stud is turning when you check then it has to come out. But there may be nothing wrong with the nut or the threads on the stud. I wouldn't wreck either. I would tighten down a second nut on the bit of thread that's showing (carefully) to act as a lock nut and gently unscrew using the bottom nut.

It maybe that the threads in the casing have in fact given up the spook, in which case swear a bit, kick the dog, have a beer and settle into the fact that you have to fix it with a Helicoil or some such.
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #843 on: March 20, 2015, 08:02:00 AM »
Quote
Firstly, Do we know that it was the stud that turned when you torqued it up? (that wasn't clear to me. ) If not, then I would do it up with a ring spanner so I could check. 
Did that, it's the nut turning. That doesn't mean that the stud *isn't* stripped though.
Quote
I would probably try and do something totally shade tree like try to put some upward pressure under the nut with a screw driver while gently undoing it with a an open ender.
Tried that. No cigar.
Quote
I would tighten down a second nut on the bit of thread that's showing (carefully) to act as a lock nut and gently unscrew using the bottom nut.
Tried that. It stripped the threads out of the jam nut. There are only a couple.
Quote
It maybe that the threads in the casing have in fact given up the spook, in which case swear a bit, kick the dog, have a beer and settle into the fact that you have to fix it with a Helicoil or some such.
That's what I'm afraid of..I'm not looking forward to that scenario.
And in that case, I'll have to MAKE a new stud to go along with putting a thread insert in the case. I haven't even searched to see if I can get 8mm dia. 4130 yet.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #843 on: March 20, 2015, 08:02:00 AM »

Offline smdl

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #844 on: March 20, 2015, 08:25:19 AM »
We've got faith in you, Chuck -- the bike couldn't be in better hands!   ;-T
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #845 on: March 20, 2015, 08:29:09 AM »
We've got faith in you, Chuck -- the bike couldn't be in better hands!   ;-T

Oh, yeah it could.  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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Offline twhitaker

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #846 on: March 20, 2015, 08:39:39 AM »
Quote
I haven't even searched to see if I can get 8mm dia. 4130 yet.

5/16 might be close enough.  ::)  ;D
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Offline kckershovel

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #847 on: March 20, 2015, 08:44:23 AM »
I am for the nut splitter. It looks like plenty of room to get to it with one. and if the threads on the stud are bad it looks like you would still have enough good threads you could put a spacer under a new nut to get proper torque. If you weld a nut to the nut that's on it the bottom nut even though stripped will alter the torque values. I like the looks of this one

http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/04571352?src=pla&cid=PLA-Google-PLA+-+Test&CS_003=7867724&CS_010=04571352

or this one

http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06642649?src=pla&cid=PLA-Google-PLA+-+Test&CS_003=7867724&CS_010=06642649

Both can be bought cheaper elsewhere but that was the easiest way to link to them.

Offline Triple Jim

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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #849 on: March 20, 2015, 10:03:06 AM »
Chuck, how many M8's on the Lario?  Is it just the top center like yours? I'm drawing a blank.


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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #850 on: March 20, 2015, 10:09:37 AM »
Chuck, how many M8's on the Lario?  Is it just the top center like yours? I'm drawing a blank.


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Yep. The four M10s, and the center short M8. It's a no doubt "special" stud on the Aero engine.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #851 on: March 20, 2015, 10:13:34 AM »
Zoro has the Facom splitter a lot cheaper, Nate: 

http://www.zoro.com/i/G4582487/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CMHhgN2St8QCFYQvgQodjjkAPQ

Notice in the picture that the nut has a flange around the bottom. Will a nut splitter get that, too? I'd almost bet not.
If I *have* to get a pencil grinder in there and grind that flange, I might as well slot the nut and take it off. No need to be spending money on a tool that I've never needed, and will never need again.. (Guzzi content)  ;D
I'm still leaning toward welding it..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #852 on: March 20, 2015, 10:39:42 AM »
Chuck you build airplanes, your solution will likely be more robust than the factories....




Did that, it's the nut turning. That doesn't mean that the stud *isn't* stripped though.Tried that. No cigar.Tried that. It stripped the threads out of the jam nut. There are only a couple.That's what I'm afraid of..I'm not looking forward to that scenario.
And in that case, I'll have to MAKE a new stud to go along with putting a thread insert in the case. I haven't even searched to see if I can get 8mm dia. 4130 yet.

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #853 on: March 20, 2015, 12:36:07 PM »
Chuck you build airplanes, your solution will likely be more robust than the factories....




Probably not, I'm just trying to effect a repair. I want to get the thumper project out of my hair before diving into the deep end of the pool on this one.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline RinkRat II

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #854 on: March 20, 2015, 12:48:34 PM »
 Hi Chuck, looks to me the most effective way at this point if there is no torque left on the stud is to cut the nut and washer with a dremel type cut off wheel,slot the stud and remove it with a screwdriver provided the bottom isn't locktited.   My .02 $

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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #855 on: March 20, 2015, 12:52:50 PM »
Hi Chuck, looks to me the most effective way at this point if there is no torque left on the stud is to cut the nut and washer with a dremel type cut off wheel,slot the stud and remove it with a screwdriver provided the bottom isn't locktited.   My .02 $

     Paul B. :BEER:

I'm trying to avoid grinding if at all possible. If it *is* locktited, which it should be, it'll take 75 ft lbs to remove it. No way could I do it with a screwdriver.. Superman maybe..  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline RinkRat II

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #856 on: March 20, 2015, 12:58:35 PM »
 Plan B. Drill and tap one flat on the nut for a decent size set screw, lock the nut to the stud and remove SLOWLY.

   PaulB :BEER:
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Offline Howard R

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #857 on: March 20, 2015, 02:11:51 PM »
A couple of quick thoughts.  First, at this point you don't really have anything to loose, maybe latch onto the nut with vise grips to pull on while turning, if you can get one thread somewhere to "bite" you might get the nut off to see what you have re: stripped stud threads.  I have used nut splitters a few times in the past (but don't have one now, else it would already be in a box on its way to you) and from my experience you might be able to get it started working on the nut flange, since there's not much "meat" there to cut until you get to a flat.  Another possibility would be to split the body of the nut and then CAREFULLY go after the flange with a thin chisel.  (Note in all of this I share your aversion to putting ground metal into the nether reaches of an engine!)

Good luck!

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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #858 on: March 20, 2015, 03:42:58 PM »
A couple of quick thoughts.  First, at this point you don't really have anything to loose, maybe latch onto the nut with vise grips to pull on while turning, if you can get one thread somewhere to "bite" you might get the nut off to see what you have re: stripped stud threads.  I have used nut splitters a few times in the past (but don't have one now, else it would already be in a box on its way to you) and from my experience you might be able to get it started working on the nut flange, since there's not much "meat" there to cut until you get to a flat.  Another possibility would be to split the body of the nut and then CAREFULLY go after the flange with a thin chisel.  (Note in all of this I share your aversion to putting ground metal into the nether reaches of an engine!)

Good luck!

Howard

tried that, too, Howard. Even put a pry bar under the jaws of the vise grips to lever it up. ;D Tomorrow, I'm going to weld it to the stud and see if I can get the stud out. If it's stripped, too.. :o then, I'll grind the nut off. I can do a thorough clean up if I have to tear down the engine.. >:(
That's the worse case scenario as I see it. If I *can* back the stud out after tacking it pretty well I can either do a good job of welding, measure it so I  can make a new one, re install it and forget it for a while, or put it in the lathe and turn the nut off to see what the threads on the stud look like.
Fingers crossed that it just backs right out.  ;D
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Xlratr

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #859 on: March 20, 2015, 04:16:04 PM »
Tomorrow, I'm going to weld it to the stud and see if I can get the stud out. If it's stripped, too.. :o then, I'll grind the nut off. I can do a thorough clean up if I have to tear down the engine.. >:(

+1  I think that's the best way to go. The least risky and least destructive too.

But isn't it possible to get another nut onto the stud and weld that in the middle? That way, if you needed to (for whatever reason), you could still get under it to cut it off with a dremel.

Anyway, good luck!!!

John


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Offline mwrenn

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #860 on: March 20, 2015, 10:26:02 PM »
http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1223
I used some of these mil spec studs on my 4v build.  I have a set of the 8mm ones.  If you need one, I'll check the length and hopefully have one.

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #861 on: March 20, 2015, 11:08:00 PM »
Hi Chuck,
You have clearly thought this out, your approach is correct, proceed per plan.  Keep us posted and good luck!
Jon

Offline SED

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #862 on: March 20, 2015, 11:40:31 PM »
I've used a small, very sharp hard cold chisel to split nuts.  It taxes my patience but it has worked.  Given that the aero stud is supported by alloy, I'm not sure it would work well - for me it's always been supported by steel or cast iron as I recall.

I've always had to cut in from 2 sides and the top - but the sides were what worked.  The nut doesn't seem to expand until the point of the chisel is very close to the threads of the bolt or stud.  I've had to resharpen and re-shape the chisel.  I don't have a welder so this is probably what I would do as long as the alloy looked like it was holding up.

Hope this is helpful, but your experience is far greater than mine.

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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #863 on: March 21, 2015, 06:08:02 AM »
http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1223
I used some of these mil spec studs on my 4v build.  I have a set of the 8mm ones.  If you need one, I'll check the length and hopefully have one.

Thanks, I'll have a length for you today..if they would happen to be the right length it would save reinventing the wheel. And b bb buying  ;D an M8 die and some 4130 stock.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Steph

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #864 on: March 21, 2015, 07:01:19 AM »
I'm no machinist but, from some YouTube videos, it seems like a nut splitter could damage the stud.

The nut is the expendable item right? Before having to weld the nut, could you not try the biggest pair of vise grips whilst prying it upward with another tool?

Hopefully the nut thread was the culprit and the stud can be cleaned-up/restored with something like this:
http://www.lasertools.co.uk/news.aspx?article=523

I remember 27 years ago when I was in the airforce, my Rickman's fork bottom stud was damaged by a cross thread. Moose Jaw's downtown machinist gave me some unattractive scenarios to fix it.
Brought the fork leg to the airbase jet mechanic, and he said "oh BSA thread so and so pulled out a tool like in the link and cleaned it up. Thread became good and held the bottom fork and wheel together with the bike :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 07:31:23 AM by Steph »

Offline LowRyter

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #865 on: March 21, 2015, 10:14:48 AM »
if the stud is stripped isn't it more likely that it's aluminum block rather than the steel stud?
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Offline rboe

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #866 on: March 21, 2015, 10:29:24 AM »
You guys have more experience in your little finger than I have in totality. But my two cents (likely over valued too). Both the nut and the stud are expendable and sacrificial. The head, not so much (but if it is stripped there are products like a heli-coil to save your bacon).

The nut should be cheap to buy. The stud too, but if it turns out to be "special" I suspect you have the tools to fab up something - say pull the good one from the other head to get exact specs.

So the nut, stud or bother are buggered, welding the nut to the stud and yanking seems to be the safest way to remove. A bit more welding, some griinding and you could reinsert the welded assembly back - but I strongly suspect bits can be bought or made to replace the buggered bits.
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #867 on: March 21, 2015, 11:27:50 AM »
Happy day.  ;D
I welded the nut to the stud..after a fashion.. not pretty,but it's stuck.

and started to back the stud out. The little guy in the back of my head said, "You *know* you are asking for trouble taking studs out of an aluminum engine case.. you probably shouldn't do this any more than absolutely nececssary.."
I've learned to listen to that guy, so I tried torquing it instead. No problemo. Torqued it to 25 ft lbs and left it. Adjusted the valves and put it back together. When I get a new stud and nut, I'll pull it and replace it.
*assuming* 3/4" thread engagement in the case, the stud needs to be at least 225mm long. HEY, MIKE! Are you listening?  ;D
Buttoned it back up and called it fixed for a while.
When I was putting up the tig stuff, I started to hang up the ground wire. Oh, joy. There's always something to fix.. ;D

Now, back to my original question..
How do the plugs look? The insulator is that color clear to the bottom as well as I can tell with a light and magnifier. Maybe a little more tan than the picture shows. Heat range ok? Main jet ok?
Edit to insert the picture.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/aero%20engine/1-004_zpse9rpepbg.jpg
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 11:30:06 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #868 on: March 21, 2015, 11:38:37 AM »
Chuck, reading a plug chop the way I'm used to doing it requires you use new plugs in a warm engine, go out for a wide-open run, and cut the engine.  Then look way down at the bottom of the porcelain.  There should be just a little color down there at its base.  You need a really bright light and a magnifier, or you need to saw the steel threads off the plug to expose the porcelain.
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Offline RinkRat II

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Re: Aero engine rescue
« Reply #869 on: March 21, 2015, 11:46:01 AM »
 By the looks of that plug I'd say your pretty damn close to spot on. With todays fuels it's a crap shoot anyhow. A little more "tan" wouldn't be a bad t/hing but how much trouble is it to go a little fatter on the main? Risk vs. Reward  ~;

    Paul B :BEER:
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