First time losing traction leaned over - what's the best thing to do?

[Nic in Western NYS]

Was on a ride on great, very curvy, very hilly farm roads this afternoon.  Noticed how much dust from farm equipment was on the back roads, plus gravel, plus mud so I took it very easy on the curves and watched out very carefully for bad road conditions leading to bad traction.  Took a sharp curve about 15 mph slower than it could have safely been taken by me, and felt both front and rear tires lose traction.  Nothing visible on the surface but must have been a fine layer of dirt.  I kept the line and feathered the clutch and got traction back.  Hairy few seconds there.

I never rode dirt bikes and I know those guys would have laughed this off.  While my response worked, I'm wondering what the experts would have done in a similar situation.

[oldbike54]

 What you did worked , probably the best action  Of course there is always ...



                                                                                                  When in doubt

                                                                                                         GAS IT   
                                     

     Dusty

[Bill Hagan]

I find that Tide with bleach gets out the stain.   

Seriously, that sort of close call does get your attention doesn't it? 

And, inasmuch as I "fell down" when I encountered unseen sand, I can hardly take the teacher role in advice.

That said, with the exception of that last unfortunate event, and with the understanding that all such things fall into the "it depends" of differing circumstances, I am of the opinion that "throttle maintenance," rather than clutch-in is better.

Congrats on having the story to tell without an insurance claim and meds.

Bill

[Moto]

I've become convinced over time that gassing it usually is best. It tends to restore front tire grip as the load transfers to the rear. As the rear slides out, gassing it will spin it up and push you through the curve.

[Chuck in Indiana]

What you did worked , probably the best action  Of course there is always ...



                                                                                                  When in doubt

                                                                                                         GAS IT   
                                     

     Dusty

Yep, I think it was Super Hunky that coined the phrase, When in doubt, gas it. 
The worse you'll do is low side.

[canuguzzi]

Was the 15 mph slower that could be taken by you 15 slower than the speed limit?  If a road is posted for 45 but you can take it at 60, going 45 in bad conditions is an error in judgement. Bad conditions would be a lower than posted most likely.

[lucydad]

Yeah that is a pucker.  Had it happen here mostly on Farm to Market roads coated with farmer's dust/mud goo.  Not fun, especially in curves that can be taken very fast as sweepers, but only if clean and dry. 

Definitely stay loose, chilly, don't brake and slight acceleration is your friend...it is ok to slide a bit. 

[Nic in Western NYS]

Was the 15 mph slower that could be taken by you 15 slower than the speed limit?  If a road is posted for 45 but you can take it at 60, going 45 in bad conditions is an error in judgement. Bad conditions would be a lower than posted most likely.

No, these are tight curves, I was going about 20 mph in a 35.  In western NC, the curves aren't marked.  Rider beware.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Yeah that is a pucker.  Had it happen here mostly on Farm to Market roads coated with farmer's dust/mud goo.  Not fun, especially in curves that can be taken very fast as sweepers, but only if clean and dry. 

Definitely stay loose, chilly, don't brake and slight acceleration is your friend...it is ok to slide a bit.

I think what I learned is it's ok to be a chicken and go very cold into curves and also that as you say it's ok to to slide a bit. That's something that is more comfortable for dirt riders.

[Aaron D.]

Usually just focusing on the exit of the turn, and not reacting too violently will get you through. By the time you make a conscious decision you will be either through or down.

Most slippery conditions, like a patch of gravel, end up being just a twitch anyway. Nailing the throttle could have you in the unhappy situation of the bike being near perpendicular to the direction of travel and may have you highsiding. Just focus on the exit, your subconscious probably knows what to do.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Usually just focusing on the exit of the turn, and not reacting too violently will get you through. By the time you make a conscious decision you will be either through or down.

Most slippery conditions, like a patch of gravel, end up being just a twitch anyway. Nailing the throttle could have you in the unhappy situation of the bike being near perpendicular to the direction of travel and may have you highsiding. Just focus on the exit, your subconscious probably knows what to do.

Thanks Aaron.  The idea of being ok with the twitch and not trying to overcompensate is helpful.  In this circumstance I was going so slowly that I probably wasn't at risk of highsiding, but my caution was not going to allow me to add throttle.  I'm just glad I didn't grab brake.

[Scud]

Dirt rider perspective:

Get your weight on the pegs and maintain throttle - or gas it (a little). That "Gas it" advice is fine if you're running a huge knobby tire in rough terrain - but if you're already worried about grip, too much gas is not going to help (unless you are already used to the feeling of having the rear end swing around due to wheel spin).

Weight on the pegs will let the bike shift under you; it lowers the pivot point of the bike relative to your body. When you are on the seat, a sudden shift of the bike goes up through your ass, and right to your head. When you have your weight on the pegs, the apparent shift of the bike is smaller - that's part of the reason that dirt riders stand up for the technical sections. Find a corner or curve you know with an annoying bump in it - then ride it a few times with more and more weight on the pegs - see how you feel about the bump then. The difference will be similar with debris (mud, sand, etc.).

Just so I don't sound all "smarty-pants" I once low-sided a Ducati in a situation similar to what you described. Good on you for keeping it upright.

[wymple]

Helmet, leather gloves, chaps, boots, and a skid jacket. Walk away.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Way back in time, on a road far far away, at night, I was astride a 650 twin Yamaha back when it was only a year old,  I was entering a curve at about 65.  I had done this curve at that speed many times before and was not worried.  It suddenly felt as if I were on an oil slick and was going sideways then like in slow motion I low sided and I lifted my inside leg so as not to have it under the bike and rode the bike to a stop in a huge shower of sparks as steel parts ground away against the pavement.  I got the bike up and nursed it to a friends house a mile away and spent the night.   My horsehide jacket had shredded both sleeves,  My steel toed boots had ground down through the leather and looked like a disc grinder had been applied to the steel of the toes.  My gloves had no palms , and The face shield and helmet appeared to have been held to a belt sander.  The bike had been equipped with crash bars and plastic saddle bags and so took no functional damage.  I carefully went to the crash in daylight and paced the distance from the first scar on the road to where the bike had stopped.  165 feet.  The road was covered with a fine dusting of pumice that was as slick as graphite.  St. Helens had erupted the day before and during the night the gray dust had settled on the road.  It was the same color as the road and at night was quite invisible.
 As for my lowside,  Under those conditions, I don't think any action on my part would have made any difference  as to whether or not I crashed.  It could only determine how I would crash.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Dirt rider perspective:

Get your weight on the pegs and maintain throttle - or gas it (a little). That "Gas it" advice is fine if you're running a huge knobby tire in rough terrain - but if you're already worried about grip, too much gas is not going to help (unless you are already used to the feeling of having the rear end swing around due to wheel spin).

Weight on the pegs will let the bike shift under you; it lowers the pivot point of the bike relative to your body. When you are on the seat, a sudden shift of the bike goes up through your ass, and right to your head. When you have your weight on the pegs, the apparent shift of the bike is smaller - that's part of the reason that dirt riders stand up for the technical sections. Find a corner or curve you know with an annoying bump in it - then ride it a few times with more and more weight on the pegs - see how you feel about the bump then. The difference will be similar with debris (mud, sand, etc.).

Just so I don't sound all "smarty-pants" I once low-sided a Ducati in a situation similar to what you described. Good on you for keeping it upright.

Very helpful. I feel much more in control with weight on pegs.  This thing happened so fast I didn't have much time but having the first reaction be weight on pegs and steady as you go sounds like good physics.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Helmet, leather gloves, chaps, boots, and a skid jacket. Walk away.

Had all the gear. Had a heavy leather riding jacket with armor in the shoulder and elbows.   Not sure how well I'll skid though.  Skidding versus tumbling probably makes a whole lot of difference in injury. Tough thing to practice.

[Nic in Western NYS]

Way back in time, on a road far far away, at night, I was astride a 650 twin Yamaha back when it was only a year old,  I was entering a curve at about 65.  I had done this curve at that speed many times before and was not worried.  It suddenly felt as if I were on an oil slick and was going sideways then like in slow motion I low sided and I lifted my inside leg so as not to have it under the bike and rode the bike to a stop in a huge shower of sparks as steel parts ground away against the pavement.  I got the bike up and nursed it to a friends house a mile away and spent the night.   My horsehide jacket had shredded both sleeves,  My steel toed boots had ground down through the leather and looked like a disc grinder had been applied to the steel of the toes.  My gloves had no palms , and The face shield and helmet appeared to have been held to a belt sander.  The bike had been equipped with crash bars and plastic saddle bags and so took no functional damage.  I carefully went to the crash in daylight and paced the distance from the first scar on the road to where the bike had stopped.  165 feet.  The road was covered with a fine dusting of pumice that was as slick as graphite.  St. Helens had erupted the day before and during the night the gray dust had settled on the road.  It was the same color as the road and at night was quite invisible.
 As for my lowside,  Under those conditions, I don't think any action on my part would have made any difference  as to whether or not I crashed.  It could only determine how I would crash.

WOW. The steel toe ground down.  That would have been your toe grinding down.  Avoiding the tumble worked out for you.  Very cool that your invisible powdery substance was from a volcano.  My invisible powdery substance was just dried, blowing cow dung.

[Chuck in Indiana]

This week, it wasn't an invisible powdery substance for me.. it was very visible corn, and no way to miss it and stay on the road. Decision time. Do I low side on the corn, or take the ditch? Pretty easy decision.. 

[not-fishing]

Many decades ago I had somewhat the same problem riding in a heavy rain.

I just put my inside foot down, relaxed and flat track - drifted the corner.  I was wearing Chippewa high boots at the time.  Being young and strong did help.  I figured if the bike went down at least my leg wouldn't be under it.

I'm not a dirt motorcycle rider but I have raced cross-country mountain bikes in gooey mud so thick that my 24 speed became a 1 speed.   The mud along with the millions of dredger cobbles made for a nasty race.  I'm used to having a bike that I pedel do the "Watusi" under me.  I had to hose myself off before I got into the jeep with a plastic garbage bag over the seat.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/themeganandguymichael/albums/72157629808040997/page2

[Guzzistajohn]

In my opinion, it's good to get a wake up call like this from time to time, a little pucker factor can keep you focused and ready. The advice the other dirt bike cats is correct, Keep your feet on the pegs, stay smooth, don't panic and goose it a little. In the world of dirt bike riding, that's the point where your just starting to have fun. Use this little incident as learning experience.

Rock on dude!

[nobleswood]

This week, it wasn't an invisible powdery substance for me.. it was very visible corn, and no way to miss it and stay on the road. Decision time. Do I low side on the corn, or take the ditch? Pretty easy decision.. 

So what was the outcome ?

[John A]

I was leading a group going too fast on a road I knew well. I entered a decreasing radius curve marked at 30 mph, I had taken it 50 before, working my way up to taking it at 60. Don't know how fast I was going this particular day but someone had oiled the track. The front end started to wash out so I think I gassed it and knew I was going to crash in front of my buddies. Somehow I made it around so the next stop they were all impressed as to how I drifted around that corner. I didn't tell them I had just screwed up and had a "back to Jesus" moment. That corner is gone now due to a road straightening project but I still remember that and wonder how I didn't wipe out. Just luck I guess

[Sasquatch Jim]

  My most memorable almost was a left hander on board a G80 CS Matchless.  One of the best handling bikes I have ever owned.
 A surprise patch of sandy gravel put the bike into a left hand broad slide.  In those days I competed on TT tracks occasionally so the feeling was not fearful.  As it went into a low side I withdrew my left leg, the boot was already down and sliding flat track style.
 The machine went all the way down until the front tire was not touching ground and the tip of the left handlebar was.  This turned the front wheel enough that the tire contacted pavement and momentarily got traction.  The bike snapped upright and drifted a couple more yards then continued on through the curve.  It was in third gear and a bit of throttle gained control as I powered on out of the corner.  As I straightened up I looked behind me and saw a hitch hiker on the side of the road gawking wide eyed.  I rode on as if I always cornered that way.
 It was not great skill on my part so much as it was excellent steering geometry and handling of that frame.  I believe it used the same frame as a Norton 500 single.  The Matchless 500 single while maybe not as fast as a Norton, did have a broad and powerful torque band that complemented that frame.

[Chuck in Indiana]

So what was the outcome ?

Took the ditch, and gassed it.    Easy.. I was on the Skorpion, which I wouldn't hesitate to take off road, but I'd have done the same with the Lario. I *would* have gone down if I'd have hit that corn, and I don't bounce nearly as well as I used to. 

[old as dirt 2]

what kind of tires and model of them do you have? how old and what mileage on them?
What tire pressures do you run?

all these factors can also lead to more slippage in turns.

I personally change tires WAY before hitting the wear bars. I like good traction especially riding in the mountains.

[Murray]

Typically the road will be "swept" buy cars and so the loose bit will be at most 2-250mm wide so leaving it alone is often the best bit the slide will scrub off a bit of speed and the bike will grip when it hits a clean bit of tar. Typically in this situation you don't have a lot of time to react anyway. If it does it under power on the way out of a corner depending on how far you are cranked over backing off a little to help the rear tyre regain traction can help if you are in the process of standing it up turning an burning (most guzzis will struggle to do this uless the surface is really loose) weighting the outside peg and doing a little rear wheel steering is an option.

Guzzi's tend to be so stable they don't wriggle and wave around so when they do shift it can be a new an unexpected experience. One thing to look out for on backroads is larger vehicles such as semis' road trains and clowns who think they are driving all sporting will cut the corner and drag crap onto the road. Left handers if you ride on the left, right handers if you ride on the right (depending on the customs of the province of which you reside). On these corners ideally you need to ride in the swept part of the road/ wheel tracks of the other vehicles instead of apexing the corner as is the normal instinctive thing to do which would have you cutting across the gravel dragged onto the road.... twice. Which usually means picking the radius of the corner and following that, to do it at a pace took a while to get it but no doubt it has avoided a few moments which is better than trying to sort things out when your name is not a top line racer.

[canuguzzi]

No, these are tight curves, I was going about 20 mph in a 35.  In western NC, the curves aren't marked.  Rider beware.

Well then, since you are still among us, you don't need the wisdom, you've earned some privilege to pass some out wouldn't you say?

 

[wymple]

Had all the gear. Had a heavy leather riding jacket with armor in the shoulder and elbows.   Not sure how well I'll skid though.  Skidding versus tumbling probably makes a whole lot of difference in injury. Tough thing to practice.

Been there, done that. If there is speed involved, you will do both. You will skid until you slow down enough for traction to take over, and then you will tumble. Unless you hit something, it seems like there's no end. You can feel every tumble on your helmet, trust me.

[Nic in Western NYS]

what kind of tires and model of them do you have? how old and what mileage on them?
What tire pressures do you run?

all these factors can also lead to more slippage in turns.

I personally change tires WAY before hitting the wear bars. I like good traction especially riding in the mountains.

Avon Azaros.  35/35 psi.  Only about 1/10th worn.  They were checked right before the ride - had gotten low because of a temperature change. The other factor is that it was relatively cool - I can sometimes feel a traction improvement when it's warmer. 

[Nic in Western NYS]

Well then, since you are still among us, you don't need the wisdom, you've earned some privilege to pass some out wouldn't you say?

 

Luck can be a wonderful thing.