V65 engine in Monza

[SED]

I've wanted to do this for years because the engine and gearbox in the Monza suffered real abuse and neglect.  One of many examples: PO installed a big block oil pressure switch which allowed the cam to slide forward and eat the timing chain, timing advance mechanism and tach drive.     And the gearbox whined too much even with Redline's strawberry milkshake... 

So found a crappy looking V65SP that had been wrecked and sorta brought back.  It wouldn't start and it was pretty cheap (Guzzi content).  Got it to start on the button with Patrick Hayes jumper wire mod and rode it.  It was a giant POS but it had 190 lbs compression hot and didn't make too much noise except for the horrible mufflers.




Waiting for winter for the old switcheroo:




Rainiest October on record so pulled apart the V65:




Power unit:




Clean and strip paint:










The ring gear was toast from trouble with startus interruptus so it would have to be swapped with the original from the Monza:

[SED]

Before pulling the Monza apart I rebuilt the carbs and installed a sump spacer in the V65 engine:

Carbs for a USA 1984 V65SP are PHBH30ED & S, but every reference online is for the world market PHBH30BD & S.  The USA carbs have a totally different atomizer design with sort of accelerator pump sitting where the atomizer would be.  Initially I thought I could modify the carbs to Euro-spec, but the carb bodies are machined out for the accelerator pump body and not interchangeable. 




(Edit to add this photo)  Here are the internals of the USA carbs.  The short "Needle Jet" is the atomizer - they are 263 and 264 for USA (different sizes R and L).  The "sleeve" is the accelerator pump body.  The internals are similar to the older VHBs (see Greg Bender's excellent article:
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_carburetor_rebuild_-__vhb.html
Below the short atomizer is the longer style world market atomizer - AB268 size.  The short atomizer is only available as 263, 264 and 265 - not 268.




Guzziology recommends removing the accelerator pump plunger and drilling the atomizer out with a #36 drill bit (about 0.271mm) then rebuilding the carbs normally.  This was done.  The projecting bowl nuts cause some clearance problems, but they fit (barely).




The sump was cleaned and the sump screen replaced.






And a sump spacer was added before bolting it back together:

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

 

[SED]

Time to pull down the Monza.  It takes about an hour to separate the top from the drive train even if you've never done it before:






Pulling off the flywheel to swap ring gears allowed me to look at the clutch - larger spine for V65 & V75:




Note: the V50 ring gear has a TDC line and a punch mark at 10 degrees BTDC.  V65s are timed at 7 degrees BTDC and have timing punches at both 7 and 10 degrees BTDC.  Measure carefully and punch new timing marks at 7 BTDC on the V50 ring gear.

Replace the weeping rear main seal:




BTW, the clutch can be aligned without special tools, just center it in the flywheel by running a small pin or bolt or blade between the disk and the flywheel and adjust before tightening the bolts completely.




So now to bolt on the transmission...

[SED]

The trans fits the clutch fine and nestles up to the back of the engine, but I can't get one of the bolts started...

A closer look shows that a clutch housing bolt hole is 1/8" out of alignment.  At first I don't get it but then realize I am the culprit.  (this is the part I hate  )  It probably stems from my fear of paint stripper.  I try to never use it and then I glove up and stand as far away as possible when using it.  Well this time scraping at the paint on the transmission it rolled away and I was too far away to grab it - it rolled away, off the lift and onto the floor! 




Wasn't there a recent post about humbling mistakes in the shop?  This is my biggest (that I'll admit too...)

The rear collar around the ujoint was dented and it cracked when straitened.  No worries, I inserted a steel collar to protect it from a u-joint failure and it looked OK:




But bolting the trans to the engine revealed that it had hit the floor on the clutch housing and bent it too.  I removed the trans to straighten it and reasoning that F=ma used too much f-ing F!   




For about a week I scrambled around looking for a clutch housing and then Carlo connected me with Micha who had a low miles V75 Nevada transmission for a very reasonable price - thanks Micha!  It wasn't the correct gear ratio, but I wasn't picky at this point.  It looked good, maybe a little too good:




Back with more later. 

[pete roper]

Excellent work! Well done that man!

[Chuck in Indiana]

I haven't seen that sump spacer. Did you make it?
This will be a kool scooter..

[chuck peterson]

That looks like way too much fun in the guzzi garage

[John A]

  !!

[racasey]

Hi Shawn, nice example of your usual stunning work. 

My V65 project sits while I ruminate on removing paint.  Kindly elaborate on what you used and how to get into all of the nooks and crannies.

Ciao,
Dick Casey

[kevdog3019]

Fun looking project and nice to see another tinkerer making something his own creation. Best with this. I'll follow.

[SED]

My V65 project sits while I ruminate on removing paint.  Kindly elaborate on what you used and how to get into all of the nooks and crannies.

Thank you Dick.  I used a Jasco paint stripper, but you might try lacquer thinner (see below).  Have had better luck in the past with "Aircraft Remover" (removes unsightly aircraft?).  After the paint bubbled I scraped it with a 1.5" paint scraper and attacked the crevices with a wire brush. I painted again and re-scraped. 

After a couple cycles of paint and scrape I just painted it on and returned the next day.  Some of the bubbled paint would dry and re-stick so I set the engine or trans in a big oil drain pan and washed it with gasoline and a parts brush then attacked the rest with a wire brush. 

There was still some paint and residue in crevices so I switched to washing it with lacquer thinner (another thing that scares me) and the parts brush, and it removed a surprising amount of paint.  Not sure if it removed the paint so well because it had already been attacked by stripper or if lacquer thinner is the perfect solvent for Guzzi paint. 

The complete strip used almost all of a quart of paint remover.  Next time I will try lacquer thinner earlier.

It's also worth cutting a couple blocks of wood to cradle your transmission while scraping.  Wear googles and an apron when wire brushing the soft paint stripper.
Cheers,
Shawn

[SED]

Thank you all for the interest and compliments.  It's been a fun project and I've learned a lot.

I haven't seen that sump spacer. Did you make it?
This will be a kool scooter..

Chuck, that is the Taiwanese sump spacer from ebay.  I liked it because of the ribbing and that it came with 2 Guzzi sump gaskets and all the hardware.  The oil filter bolt is too long for the V50/65 (I've read that V75s have a deeper sump since about 2000 so that must be the difference).  With the spacer the engine can now take the longer V75 oil filters.  It was shipped with amazing speed - 4 days IIRC. 

[SED]

Whenever you get this far into something there are always those other things that need taking care of.

The missing nut on the center stand and the wear where it seats against the frame.  Stand pivots re greased and lock nuts installed...




The broken brake pedal stop that Brad helped me weld (this is the after picture!):




The new driveshaft (5000 miles) with the notchy, worn out u-joint - bright striations in the photo.




The correct Elbe 106 19mm x 48mm ujoint for this shaft is available at Drivelines NW in Everett so they sent me one. 
https://www.drivelinesnw.com/company/everett/
(BTW some shafts have 20mm x 47? ujoints so measure before buying)  They are also available for less $ here:
http://www.drive-lines.com/elbe/template.php?series=ELBE%20106

Now the more experienced would have asked "why is the new ujoint worn?"  Not me 
The new one presses into the shaft easily but is tight in the transmission yoke.  Thinning the circlips does not help - instead the two eyes of the yoke seem to be misaligned, which would explain why the original failed so quickly.  I could probably straighten the yoke but sadly the joint can't be pressed out without destroying the seals. So there it sits.  I have another on order.

The Elbe joint from Drivelines NW looks exactly the same as the joint that came out, down to the German numbers on it except that it has a bulge at the center of the cross and a grease fitting angled between the yokes.  The bulge can be ground down with a bench grinder to give clearance between the cross and the shaft and more clearance gained by replacing the fitting with a 6mm x 1.0 (IIRC) set screw.  Remove shaft, remove set screw and grease. 

[SED]

5,000 miles ago I replaced the valves, valve springs and seals in the Monza heads.  The V50III heads are the same as the V65 and V75 heads and the valves and springs are interchangeable.  Guzzi changed the valve manufacturing and spring design (now a single coil progressively wound spring) to avoid the valve stretch and drop problem that plagued early small blocks.  IIRC the parts are the same as mid 2000s Nevadas.  (If the heads are off it is also worth checking the size of the oil passage through a locating dowel in the cylinder block above the cylinder bore.  Guzzi increased the size of the hole during production - see Guzziology.  But also be aware that oil pump volume also increased so may not be wise to drill to the maximum size unless the oil pump is also updated.)






This meant a head swap was in order.




While the heads are the same, the V50III intake manifolds are longer than V65 so they must be swapped too.  Swapping the manifolds changes the angle of the carbs and so the airbox must also be swapped.  More on this in next post.




Engine and trans are ready to go back in the frame:

[Chuck in Indiana]

Thanks for the U joint info. 
Continue on..   

[SED]

I chose not to use the original Monza airbox and intake manifolds for several reasons.  Primarily is that it is part of the breather assembly so oil and fuel seemed to collect in the bottom of the airbox (worn engine?) and the Monza air filter seemed to get contaminated with oil mist.   Also, the back section is rubber and is cracking though it hasn't failed yet.  With the longer Monza manifolds the carbs sit further under the frame rails limiting access to throttle cable adjustment and forcing sharp bends in the control cables.  Given all this it seemed like the V65 must be a better system...   

Swapping the airbox means changing to the V65 intake manifolds then test fitting the carbs and cables.  The choke cables had never worked well on the Monza because of the poor routing so I had to spend some time getting it right.  Nothing worked until the choke lever was relocated to the top of the left manifold (the Monza's was below it).  Install the fuel lines now too, they will be easier to route as other hoses and cables are installed.



Next had to be routing the breather and drain hoses.  The valve cover breather hoses with their union to the airbox is still available new from MG cycle.  Cut the hoses 3-4" longer than you need so that you can remove the valve covers without removing the hoses - the hoses in the picture above work (barely) but should be longer. 

The airbox had distorted with 30 years of heat and oil & fuel vapors so the upper and lower halves had to be coerced into mating together (heat gun or torch) then tiewrapped to hold them together.




Before installing the airbox with the breather and drain hoses find the wire that connects to the oil pressure sender and connect it now.  Fortunately I anticipated this and removed its other end from the Molex gangplug and installed it on the switch. 

This airbox does not have a separate oil vapor recovery tank like later V65s, so all the breathers and drains attach along the bottom of the airbox; from front to back they are valve cover vent, drain/vent to crankcase, 2nd drain to crankcase, drain to road.  Both drains to crankcase connect together at the fitting behind the fuel bowl nut.




Almost ready to install the upper frame!  You can see the oil pressure sender wire snaking out behind the right cylinder.




If you've messed with Guzzi airboxes you might believe that it took one long day to get the airbox, carbs and breathers all sorted out...

[SED]

Thanks for the U joint info. 
Continue on..   

The new ujoint arrived and it's a different manufacturer - another source?  Koyo LB UJ stamped on the cups and ST-1948 printed on the box.

Hope it's not just steering joint quality! 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Nothing worked until the choke lever was relocated to the top of the left manifold

Yeah, I did that to the AeroLario, too..

[SED]

So you may have gathered that most of this build happened at least a week ago, but incredibly I met the second owner last night!

I got the bike running last Friday and put a few miles on it over the weekend between rain storms.  Yesterday it was clear so ran down the local twistys and back on the freeway about 35 miles and stopped in for the local bike night.  A guy shows up asking about the Monza, we get to talking and it turns out he is the second owner of the V65SP that donated the engine.  The original owner was a friend of his and it was purchased new at International Motors (?) about 165th N Aurora in Seattle(it had been sitting on the floor for a couple years).  This is the same shop I walked into about the same time after seeing a LeMans on University Ave. (I was about 22).  The original owner crashed the SP at least twice before selling it to the guy I met.  One crash was a low side where the rear wheel hit the curb flipping the bike and breaking all the bodywork off the bike on both sides which explains the missing bodywork and rear wheel with a flat spot. 

He clearly was a knowledgeable Guzzisti who is hunting craigslist for another V65.  He confirmed that it, despite the damage, the V65 was a low mileage bike. 
 

[SED]

A test fit showed that the battery tray would not fit over the back of the airbox so had to be removed.  (Removing the battery tray would have made it easier to pull the bike off the drive train too.)




Jill helped me lift the bike onto the engine and transmission and we got the bolt through the top of the transmission, then Jill said "Mi chiamano Luigi!"   

[Arizona Wayne]

Do the heads look bigger than stock ?   And only a small block officinado Guzzisiti would notice the difference if they do. 

Like my `04 750 Breva heads.......compare d to the newer V7 heads they look tiny even though they are both the same displacement and hp. 

[Matteo]

Looks good to me.


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[SED]

Looks good to me.


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That is a BIG pizza. 

Maybe the head looks big because the valve covers are so small?

[SED]

Small blocks are easy to pull the rear suspension - pull the upper shock mounts, remove the brake caliper, swingarm pins and loosen the boot at the back of the transmission, then pull it in one piece.  So that's the way it went back on:






The Monza exhaust would not fit the V65 engine (and the V65 head pipes were too short for the upswept exhaust).  Measuring and comparing showed that the Monza exhaust pipes were both bent inward at the top and held that way by the cross-over pipe.  The right pipe was also pushed to the left and back so the whole mess formed a open-ended parallelogram on the floor. 

How to bend exhaust pipes back into shape???  Connect the head pipes at the cross-over and lay it in the driveway...drive the car onto the cross-over.     then pry the pipes apart with a 2x4.  It worked great but forgot to take a picture. 

Once aligned the pipes needed a new coat of BBQ black:




Almost there! 

[SED]

Exhaust on, fluids topped up, heads retorqued (guzziology), valves reset, throttle cables balanced and ready for a test ride.




The time spend routing the choke cables paid off and it started quicker than the old setup.

Ran and drove very well for having just been assembled with so many changes.  Reset the spark with timing light, adjusted idle mixture and carb balance.  Put it on the lift for another head retorque and valve adjustment and overall check.




Engine is mechanically quieter, idles more consistently, and has WAY more torque - though it's probably getting terrible gas mileage.  Transmission is much quieter and shifter has less play - it feels very modern!  It is a blast to ride! 

[Matteo]

Excellent!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Fuel economy will be fine. I get 50 plus with the AeroLario. I love the way the Monza talks to you on a winding road. That should be a kick in the pants with the V65 in it.. Nice work.

[Arizona Wayne]

I need to do a clutch job on my 750 Breva and planned to attempt it like on a big block Guzzi, crabbing it instead of what you did here.  What do you suggest I do?

[SED]

I need to do a clutch job on my 750 Breva and planned to attempt it like on a big block Guzzi, crabbing it instead of what you did here.  What do you suggest I do?

If the Breva comes apart like the Monza I'd do it like that.  It's almost the same as crabbing just on the front tire instead of the engine.  I don't think the Monza can pivot on the engine. 

It only took about an hour to pull the frame off the drive train.  It does take 2 people to put it back together.