V65 engine in Monza

[SED]

Fuel economy will be fine. I get 50 plus with the AeroLario. I love the way the Monza talks to you on a winding road. That should be a kick in the pants with the V65 in it.. Nice work.

Not sure about the fuel economy, the atomizer is 271 instead of 268, but it sure runs well.    
And it's hard to keep my wrist out of it!   

[Chuck in Indiana]

I need to do a clutch job on my 750 Breva and planned to attempt it like on a big block Guzzi, crabbing it instead of what you did here.  What do you suggest I do?

From the Lario Rehab thread page 5.

It only takes a few bolts and you can pick up everything but the drivetrain and wheelbarrow it away on the front wheel. Have a saw horse ready and set the rear on it.

I've done it by myself a few times during the Lario rehab and subsequent Aero engine installation.

[Arizona Wayne]

Thanks guys. 

[SED]

Today was pouring rain so pulled the driveshaft to straighten the yoke and rebuild or replace u-joint.

After 100 miles the new u-joint already had shiny striations, but they polished out with a few wipes of 1500 grit paper.

The yoke was straitened by pressing a suitable diameter socket into the Y to spread it.  It had been pinched closed about 0.030" (the driveshaft had been purchased new 5,000 miles ago so it must've happend at the factory).







It went together easy and true.  This pic shows the grease port on the new Elbe 106 u-joint.  (size 19 x 48)




Out for a ride with my Brother yesterday:

[Arizona Wayne]

Is that other bike 1 of your Ariel Hunters?   I see it has an old style centerstand on it.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Nice. How about a ride report? 

[SED]

Nice. How about a ride report? 

Sure!  It's a great modification for the Monza.  Why didn't Guzzi do this back in 1981?

The V65 version has about 100 miles on it, mostly short trips, but one of 35 miles or so including twistys and freeway.  It starts easier cold due in-part to the careful routing of the choke cables.  It settles into a steady idle and doesn't seem to have the occasional stumble that plagued the 500 engine when warm. 

The Nevada transmission shifts nicely and the shift linkage now has rod end bearings on both ends which makes shifting feel more precise.  The clutch had been cleaned and deglazed and the ring gear swapped from the 500 resulting in action that is smoother and more linear.  The Nevada transmission has 10% higher ratios than the Monza trans but they are perfect with the increased torque of the engine (though I'm still getting used to them when riding in the twistys).  The Monza had seemed under geared when traveling at 60-70 mph (except when trying to accelerate), so this is a nice change that fits normal riding.  The transmission is also much quieter, though the straight-cut gears still whine some under heavy load at mid rpm.

The V65 engine is a complete surprise, having WAY more torque and pulling way better than expected.  This is with the atomizers drilled out with a twist bit (ala Guzziology).  The throttle feels like a rheostat for an electric motor without waiting for the rpms familiar from the V50 and Ariels.  The 650 engine is also quieter without the high pitch tapping that the 500 had.  The tapping sounded like valves, but the heads and valves were swapped from the 500 so perhaps the noise was related to cam and timing sprockets which had been damaged by the previous owner.  The exhaust note is a deeper, mellower sound and I'd swear it is quieter. 

Handling and braking are the same, but repairing the brake pedal stop and the other changes to the clutch and shifter, and better routing for the throttle cables have made the bike feel newer.  It feels more modern - and it wasn't bad before.

It was always fun to ride, but it is a blast now, especially because of the engine with its (relative) gobs of torque.  It pulls cleanly from 3,000 rpm, accelerates briskly from 4,000 and just races for the redline when it reaches 5,000.  The 500cc Monza would travel quickly, but it took some time to build up.  To get the most out of the Monza required wringing its neck between 6,500 and 8,000.  IIRC Guzzi claimed 49hp for the Monza and 51hp for the V65, but this feels like the difference between 35 and 51.  Snapping the throttle open will cause the engine to bog, but travelling at 4,000 rpm at 40-50 mph and rolling it open and the bike just wants to accelerate.

Under 60-70 mph power seems similar to the LMIII except that the Monza is so light and nimble that I have a tendency to push it harder.        A short acceleration run buried the speedo needle past the Veglia logo, a speed the 500 reached only a couple times in 5,000 miles.  Another acceleration run out of a corner and up a hill shows the 500 reaching 65 mph and the 650 almost 80. 

My brother remarked about how smooth the V65 engine is - "turbine-like smoothness".  This coupled with the taller gearing, quieter drive train and mellower exhaust note are tempting me to take the bike on longer trips.

I'll have a better interpretation of the bike when the roads dry out next spring.

Eventually I will rebuild and install the V65SP forks, but having recently rebuilt the Monza forks, I'll live with them for a while. 

[Matteo]

Good report. Sounds similar to the power my V50III makes since Ed Milich rebuilt the heads. I need to put a gps on it to check the top. It blows through redline easily now.

[SED]

Good report. Sounds similar to the power my V50III makes since Ed Milich rebuilt the heads. I need to put a gps on it to check the top. It blows through redline easily now.

That sounds like quite a hotrod.  The LMI fairing looks good too.  What is the coating on your pipes?

[Matteo]

Pipes are a stock  Lario system. They sound really nice!

[kevdog3019]

Good report. Sounds similar to the power my V50III makes since Ed Milich rebuilt the heads. I need to put a gps on it to check the top. It blows through redline easily now.

You've got my interest Manfred. Explain the head mod Ed did?  Compression/bigger valves?

[kevdog3019]

Sure!  It's a great modification for the Monza.  Why didn't Guzzi do this back in 1981?

The V65 version has about 100 miles on it, mostly short trips, but one of 35 miles or so including twistys and freeway.  It starts easier cold due in-part to the careful routing of the choke cables.  It settles into a steady idle and doesn't seem to have the occasional stumble that plagued the 500 engine when warm. 

The Nevada transmission shifts nicely and the shift linkage now has rod end bearings on both ends which makes shifting feel more precise.  The clutch had been cleaned and deglazed and the ring gear swapped from the 500 resulting in action that is smoother and more linear.  The Nevada transmission has 10% higher ratios than the Monza trans but they are perfect with the increased torque of the engine (though I'm still getting used to them when riding in the twistys).  The Monza had seemed under geared when traveling at 60-70 mph (except when trying to accelerate), so this is a nice change that fits normal riding.  The transmission is also much quieter, though the straight-cut gears still whine some under heavy load at mid rpm.

The V65 engine is a complete surprise, having WAY more torque and pulling way better than expected.  This is with the atomizers drilled out with a twist bit (ala Guzziology).  The throttle feels like a rheostat for an electric motor without waiting for the rpms familiar from the V50 and Ariels.  The 650 engine is also quieter without the high pitch tapping that the 500 had.  The tapping sounded like valves, but the heads and valves were swapped from the 500 so perhaps the noise was related to cam and timing sprockets which had been damaged by the previous owner.  The exhaust note is a deeper, mellower sound and I'd swear it is quieter. 

Handling and braking are the same, but repairing the brake pedal stop and the other changes to the clutch and shifter, and better routing for the throttle cables have made the bike feel newer.  It feels more modern - and it wasn't bad before.

It was always fun to ride, but it is a blast now, especially because of the engine with its (relative) gobs of torque.  It pulls cleanly from 3,000 rpm, accelerates briskly from 4,000 and just races for the redline when it reaches 5,000.  The 500cc Monza would travel quickly, but it took some time to build up.  To get the most out of the Monza required wringing its neck between 6,500 and 8,000.  IIRC Guzzi claimed 49hp for the Monza and 51hp for the V65, but this feels like the difference between 35 and 51.  Snapping the throttle open will cause the engine to bog, but travelling at 4,000 rpm at 40-50 mph and rolling it open and the bike just wants to accelerate.

I would think your V65 is about 37/38 RWHP. The stock Lario is 38, not the claimed 60 (at the shaft I presume) Guzzi claims. A V50 may be closer to 30 RWHP or thereabouts. I'm going by Ed M's dyno numbers (on Lario statement).

[Matteo]

You've got my interest Manfred. Explain the head mod Ed did?  Compression/bigger valves?

Bigger valves, stiffer springs, flowed heads and manifolds. I had to put stiffer springs in the carbs to bring the idle back down. Gas mileage went downhill but fun factor over 4grand is up.

[kevdog3019]

Bigger valves, stiffer springs, flowed heads and manifolds. I had to put stiffer springs in the carbs to bring the idle back down. Gas mileage went downhill but fun factor over 4grand is up.

Cool; Sounds interesting!  He did a "little" work to my Lario engine also. 

[Tom]

My V50III has a V65SP engine in it.  The V65SP use to belong to Frank Wedge.  How it ended up in Honolulu.  Not sure.  I tried to track down the body work but not sure where.  The engine got placed in the V50III.  I got the bike from the PO after he had it for a while.

[Simmoto]

Great thread, thanks, a lot of good lessons for the 4V 750/Imola project.