Author Topic: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.  (Read 66336 times)

Les P

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I have a few projects that have been in limbo for some time (years) now and this is one of them, a pretty much original 1973 Eldorado with around 15000 miles on the clock.
I will add a few pictures as I go, add others of what has been done so far which is a little ironic given I went out this morning to grab a set of swing arm taper roller bearings to replace the installed new ones that rusted (outer races) beyond service from sitting so long....

These were the pictures when it was for sale.





There won't be any vapour blasting, shiny paint jobs or new chrome, what is there will get what it needs to be presentable as far as cosmetics.
The mechanical side is simply, if its worn it gets replaced.

Until a few months ago the frame had been like this for years, it then along with everything else went to a storage locker along with many tubs holding the rest of it.



« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 11:14:56 PM by Les P »

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2017, 06:38:15 AM »
Wait... how did your Eldo turn into a sunbeam S7?
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2017, 04:35:58 AM »

Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2017, 06:49:37 PM »
Well, I'm curious to say the least :grin:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2017, 06:49:37 PM »

oldbike54

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 01:45:46 AM »
Wait... how did your Eldo turn into a sunbeam S7?

 It's an Ozzie trick ...


 
Well, I'm curious to say the least :grin:

 ...that Balvenie can explain  :grin:

 Dusty

Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2017, 03:28:13 AM »
It's an Ozzie trick ...
 ...that Balvenie can explain  :grin:
 Dusty

hahahahaha What would we do without ya Dusty :laugh: :laugh:
[you rotter :evil: :wink:]
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

oldbike54

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2017, 01:48:30 PM »
hahahahaha What would we do without ya Dusty :laugh: :laugh:
[you rotter :evil: :wink:]

 Thanks Bill , I do try  :laugh:

 Dusty

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2017, 07:30:09 PM »
It's an Ozzie trick ...


 
 ...that Balvenie can explain  :grin:

 Dusty

I'm no 'Aussie Dusty but my father was. ( R.A.A.F / WW2 / Pacific)
I gave him some slack for being a Vet but was told I had to stop telling people I was adopted when I found out.

#

This old bus has been apart so long I forget where some of the bits go so have been doing a bit of a mock up to get an idea of what is what.

The 949 kit should be here today and a 30 litre ultra sonic tank turned up yesterday.
That picture is misleading with the parts looking blasted which they are not, just the usual clean up, I will have to soda blast the cases though with some grey spots (light corrosion) still present.
The blaster is still in the lock up so will do the 2000+ km round trip next week to get the last items including the other S7 Deluxe, Norton and Triumph.

Items replaced will be.

Fork stanchions, bushes and springs, engine valves, guides, springs, rocker units complete, push rods, tappets/followers, NOS stock camshaft, connecting rods, pistons/cylinders, bearing flanges, timing chain and tensioner, oil pump, sump/pan, clutch, transmission output shaft and all bearings, universal, carrier bearing, drive shaft and coupling, final drive bearings and oem ring and pinion, full Greg Bender wiring loom, new carburetor internals, new exhaust system which I didn't really want but it had the small outlet torpedo's.

The wheel bearings have not a mark on them so will most likely reuse them.

The generator will remain (Have both new Bosch mechanical and electronic regulators but was advised the electronic version is optimum for the VW generator not the Eldorado output)

I still have to finish off some sundry bits for the conversion to oil filter pan but will look at an external oil filter relocation also along with a look to see if a oil surge plate, baffle and scraper is worth doing.

I will laugh about this one day, maybe tomorrow.
The frame, swing arm with final drive hung off the rafters for a long time, one day I am looking at the FD and think, what are the chances.....






The lobes on the original camshaft all measured good but the thread was damaged, it took a long time to find a replacement then a NOS one came up, I think I read somewhere some cams were soft so it might need checking for hardness.
The crankshaft still needs regrinding and will most likely get it nitrided or similar.



 




Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 06:50:21 PM »
949 Gilidoni cylinders just arrived from Germany, thanks HMB Guzzi.

Got a 30 litre ultra sonic cleaner the other day, the jury is still out on the magic cavitating bubbles, but seems to work OK with a white vinegar, dish wash pellets and detergent cocktail along with hot (ish) water. 



Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 07:05:59 PM »
Well that excitement was short lived, the drama seems endless with this bike sadly.

The shipping box as it sits had perhaps an inch of soft foam at the bottom, cylinder tops on the foam (loose in the big box) and tons of packing on top of that so no real protection and you guessed it, top fins broken on both cylinders.
$961 shipped.

 :violent1:






« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:58:41 PM by Les P »

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 07:41:26 PM »
What a bummer, have you contacted the shipper for a refund? I wonder if a good magician welder can fix them?
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 10:46:13 PM »
Sounds like PPP (pi$$ poor packaging) was the cause of the damage, so HMB should make it right. If they were packed better then they wouldn't have gotten broken, even if they were roughly handled.
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 V700
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'73 Eldorado
'74 850-T
'76 Convert
'77 Morini 3 1/2 Strada
'81 Ducati 500SL Pantah
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Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2017, 03:03:29 PM »
Its all sorted Charlie, just one of those things I guess.
I must have received over 700 +  packages from oversea's (including the con rods from you) over the years and the first one to have damage so that is not a bad record.

I did the final 2000+ km round trip to get the last of things in storage (three trips and enough truck driving for a life time) leaving Monday afternoon getting back Tuesday.
Today will be getting the lathe etc ready for use and perhaps this thread will start heading in the right direction.


canuck750

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2017, 09:57:28 PM »
Shame about the cylinders, I have bought a lot of stuff from HMB over the years and have not a problem, touching wood right now!

The bike is looking good.

Offline balvenie

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 03:19:52 AM »
Looking forward to your progress Les :grin: :thumb:
Oz
04 Cali
As ye practice, so do ye teach.

Offline Bucky

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2017, 12:36:50 PM »
Been lurking this thread also.
Looking forward to the final product, Les.

Love those panniers...

1973 Eldorado

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2017, 04:03:45 AM »
Photobucket does not work in some cases although all the links to photo's in my bucket still work but who knows for how long.
I uploaded the ones I had on ADVRider to my ImageEvent account, they were from modifying the engine case to suit the addition of a later oil pan way back in 2015.
The text is edited a bit from the posts there.

I had already bought M4 non oil filter bearings (The crankshaft was 1st under size on all journals)  but then read about modifying the earlier case to take a oil filter front bearing and the associated work to make it work.
So I bought a oil filter front bearing...

The oil gallery is there in the case but not drilled so that was the first order of business.
The later front bearing has one bolt moved so the gallery is able to be drilled, the Eldorado case has a M8 threaded hole in the way.
It was plugged and a new M8 threaded hole was drilled and tapped to suit the new bearing.

















You can see the oil feed hole to suit the non filter bearing, in theory the fit of the bearing in the case is supposed to minimise pressure loss and it would have been covered by the later bearing but I elected to machine a plug 0.001 oversize and press it in with Loctite.
Afterward I drilled and tapped a M3 thread into it so it could be pinned with a stainless steel grub screw, overkill but if it was to drop oil pressure could be reduced or worse.



The plugged thread can be seen here, the new drilling will past through it to feed the new bearing, M8 alloy rod was turned in the lathe for a tight as possible fit, it goes flush to the inside of the case and Loctited in place.





Some of these bearings are a poor fit in the engine cases (China is a source for some I hear, HBM Guzzi will be doing billet bearings flanges in 2018)


 
 

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2017, 04:23:12 AM »
Copied from ADVRider.

Trying to mount the case was a challenge of sorts and did not want to remove any of the studs and also couldn't quite get to the two new holes in one go.
One cylinder stud would have hit the column with maybe 5 mm to go so had to drill one then rotate the case and clock it up again.
I ended up bonding two pieces of hard wood together along with screws, they were bolted to the case and it worked very well.
I did bolt them to the case right side up and took a cut off them (the wood)
Only thing of note, i used a MT3 collect to hold the drill and gain some height.
When the drill came through, what looked to be 100000 mile oil started oozing out which was kind of odd.
From the centre/center hole to the new holes is 28 mm (14 mm spacing for the 5 holes) based on the later oil pan.
I elected to drill the larger hole 9.5 mm instead of 10 mm which is closer to the pan hole in diameter.
The hole you are drilling down to meet is around 26 mm and had given some thought to setting the case so the new passage was drilled on a slight angle 28 mm at the face and 26 mm at the target hole.
After I snapped out of that idea I drilled straight down and was careful where the two holes meet with the slight offset.
It all came out nice so the crankshaft can finally go out for grinding and will have the peace of mind of the oil filter. < (Edit, that is a bit of a joke now, L W Parry in Sydney who had been around a long time closed down, no crank grind there)

Pan holes checked out at 14 mm / 14 / 14 / 14 mm or 28 mm off the centre feed.

















M3 thread into the gallery plug.







All it really needs now is a plate to block off the old oil pick up gallery to oil pump at the inside on the case, the old pick up can be cut and threaded for a pipe plug.
It has two of the M8 threads that take the oil pump retaining cap screws.
The plate should be finished tomorrow.

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2017, 04:51:45 AM »
The early bikes oil system was fairly basic
A pick up with screen going to the plain oil pan base, oil pulled up by the oil pump then back into the front pad gallery, oil up to the front bearing and down to the steel crossover (with the pressure relief valve) pipe to the rear pad and on to the rear bearing.

The bearings should be safe this time.
With the new drilling's, from the screened oil pick up in the pan to the oil pump, then under pressure to the oil filter and split up to be sent to the front and rear bearings.
I picked up a OEM spacer (off lamontsanfurd) and it might be possible to machine a take off to fit over the flange for the oil filter in the later pan, lines or such could then pass through the spacer for a externally mounted oil filter.



Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2017, 09:06:04 AM »
Only problem with using a sump spacer (or deeper sump) is you lose a little ground clearance on a bike that already has pretty low clearance between the sump and ground.
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 V700
'69 Ambassador
'71 Ambassador
'73 Eldorado
'74 850-T
'76 Convert
'77 Morini 3 1/2 Strada
'81 Ducati 500SL Pantah
'82 V50 III

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2017, 05:17:54 PM »
I seem to remember you mentioning that before Charlie so will keep note of it once it is back on its wheels.

The blanking plate to replace the old oil pick up is done, nothing to flash but should do the job and saved cutting up the original oil pick up.
The alloy plate is in a chuck mounted to a rotary table.
The holes in the plate are tapped M6 and work piece drilled 6mm.
The extra taped holes around the central one hold the piece at the various pivot points.
Its around 3 mm thicker than the old pick up flange so might reduce it later (or not)



The block off plate hole measurements.







« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 05:19:33 PM by Les P »

Offline JoeW

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2017, 09:07:10 PM »
I seem to remember you mentioning that before Charlie so will keep note of it once it is back on its wheels.

The blanking plate to replace the old oil pick up is done, nothing to flash but should do the job and saved cutting up the original oil pick up.
The alloy plate is in a chuck mounted to a rotary table.
The holes in the plate are tapped M6 and work piece drilled 6mm.
The extra taped holes around the central one hold the piece at the various pivot points.
Its around 3 mm thicker than the old pick up flange so might reduce it later (or not)



The block off plate hole measurements.







Its on to the cylinder heads now, the guides were knurled internally so will drill them out for replacement.
A little tidbit on that oil pan conversion. I sold a filter pan to someone on this forum so he could do the conversion. He drilled the 4 center bolt holes out to accommodate the 8 mm bolts. When he started the bike oil spewed out one of the front bolts. I guess that passage was so close that he drilled into it. I've done this conversion and never had that problem. But, I decided that the next time I do one, I'll use time_serts and reduce the holes in the case to 6 mm. Just thought I'd let you know. Nice machine work BTW.

Sent from my QTASUN1 using Tapatalk

Joe Walano

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2017, 04:22:45 AM »
Thanks for that Joe, I was going to make four M8 to M6 reduced studs (unless I can find some off the shelf) that or use inserts in the engine case which would be better but a lot of setting up.
Looking at one of the pan pics there looks to be quite a bit of material around the four 6 mm holes but will take a closer look at the pans I have out of curiosity.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 05:20:22 PM by Les P »

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2017, 07:10:39 PM »
First day of 2018.
Hubs are done, 0000 wire wool and WD40 to finish off and the same for the spokes.







Nipples got soaked in Duragloss 853 for a minute or so then 0000 wire wool wet with 853 to clean them off, dropped in baking soda and water as they were done.


« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 09:11:33 PM by Les P »

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2018, 10:57:11 PM »
One of the wheel spoke nipples had fractured under the head but eBay came through with a few spares arriving today, USA to Chile to Australia.
50 spokes and 40 nipples so there there should one good in there for sure, thanks  'guzzipartsguy.
The packing was superior to that of the 'some assembly required 949 Gilidoni cylinders which will be sent back to Germany this week.
They are still sitting on the pool table and I shake my head every time I see them.



Fork stanchion lower fasteners off the easy way but will make a tool for reassembly.



No luck with wheel bearings, they just shrug and say not listed.  :laugh:
No doubt the ones on eBay "etc with no markings are from India.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 05:21:33 PM by Les P »

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2018, 08:32:12 AM »
No luck with wheel bearings, they just shrug and say not listed.  :laugh:
No doubt the ones on eBay "etc with no markings are from India.

MG Cycle has them, no mention of where they're made:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=218&products_id=1433

Also try "Peters Bearings" in Germany. Last I checked with him he had NOS bearings.
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 V700
'69 Ambassador
'71 Ambassador
'73 Eldorado
'74 850-T
'76 Convert
'77 Morini 3 1/2 Strada
'81 Ducati 500SL Pantah
'82 V50 III

Les P

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2018, 07:50:33 PM »
Thanks for the PM Joe and thanks Charlie, I got a reply within a half hour or so of sending an email.
I replied but it will be late in Germany now, most likely will get a reply here tonight.

The rear bearings are showing some tracking on the cups race, probably still usable but if I can get replacements I will.
Both wheels looked to have undisturbed original seals and plenty of grease, I would be very curious to know how many miles this bike has really done (not that it matters) the rear universal was very sloppy (A new one came from Harper's) yet the body work / paint is as close to perfect as you could want for what must be original.

Any opinions on these VHB slides and wonder what the source is (Italy I hope ? )

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dellorto-7454-VHB-Throttle-Slide-Size-60-Moto-Guzzi-750-850-Eldorado-Ambassador/182970782724


Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2018, 08:54:52 PM »
Any opinions on these VHB slides and wonder what the source is (Italy I hope ? )

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dellorto-7454-VHB-Throttle-Slide-Size-60-Moto-Guzzi-750-850-Eldorado-Ambassador/182970782724

Likely new-old-stock genuine Dellorto, since until recently there hasn't been any reproductions made. The repros are easy to spot since they have machining marks in a place the originals didn't.
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 V700
'69 Ambassador
'71 Ambassador
'73 Eldorado
'74 850-T
'76 Convert
'77 Morini 3 1/2 Strada
'81 Ducati 500SL Pantah
'82 V50 III

canuck750

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2018, 02:28:14 PM »
I wish I had your machining skill, very impressive  :bow:  :bow:  :bow:

Cheers

Jim

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado, Not all that Glitters is Gold.
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2018, 02:02:55 AM »
Hi Les,

I have to second Jim on this work, very nice work indeed. I'm looking forward to your continued progress, keep coming with all the machining photos! love them! :grin:

On the damaged cylinders, I have also received a dodgy packaged from HMB. No things were broken but a few parts missing and the whole box was full of the contents of their shop trash bin. I ordered a lot of small parts so maybe the parts picker/packer had a bad day. I wrote to michael and complained about the quality of the packing as I had spend more than 1200 in that order. Didn't really enjoy picking all their trash out of my box. Maybe he should consider hiring a new packing guy.
He did send me the missing parts and a T-shirt as an apology, so I guess that's nice enough of him. All my other shipments fro HMB have been good, so just one unlucky one there.

-Ulrik   
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

 


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