Author Topic: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.  (Read 95937 times)

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #120 on: September 03, 2019, 08:44:21 PM »
Check the spring heights, why not.
28 mm + whatever the indicator reads after the valve is raised onto its seat.
The manual does not address the Eldorado that I can see but for the V7-750 I see a pressure check at 36mm.. I have around a consistent 36.3 mm not that I know what the MG Cycle spring poundage is at that height but they are longer than the manuals stated free height for OEM parts.
I think that will be close enough for head assembly.



The courier dropped off 4 quarts of Redline Heavy Shockproof for the final drive as i was doing the check, under the pump now.  :grin:
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 11:01:59 PM by LesP »

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #121 on: September 05, 2019, 10:43:59 PM »


LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2019, 01:55:40 AM »
We will hope they will not part company.
I think the two Mallory metal slugs were actually around 180 grams, filler wire 309L on pulse (Lincoln V200T)




« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 07:25:45 AM by LesP »

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2019, 04:54:22 PM »




Wildguzzi.com

Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2019, 04:54:22 PM »

Online balvenie

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #124 on: September 21, 2019, 06:36:28 PM »
Look at all those lovely parts to play with :grin: :grin:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2019, 07:22:58 PM »
We are not out of the woods yet.
Why they made a bronze thrust where the contact OD is much larger than that of the camshaft sprockets rear face is beyond me.
I will modify the bronze for hopefully better oiling based on the sprocket face condition even though the contact band is only a few mm's.








« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 09:30:17 PM by LesP »

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2019, 04:07:07 AM »
That might help, oil bleeds from the tunnel in the case, fills the recess (3 mm diameter ball nose cutter, 1.5 mm deep) for oiling between the cam and thrust, some should exit via the 2 mm hole to another channel at the front to oil between the thrust and rea rof the camshaft sprocket... Oil should get into the upper channels which are not drilled.
Oil would get there anyway but based on the wear to rear face on the sprocket, more won't hurt.













LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2019, 06:08:18 PM »
Game on.



LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2019, 07:54:50 PM »
Most people would take that brand new part and 'stick it in.
Bearings don't get scratched from fairy dust, its all those non deburred machined edges and drilling's waiting for bits to break off, maybe they will, maybe they won't

All main bearing edges and holes deburred and ready to go now, old crap was the same, modern crap is little better.
The HMB billet rear is no different.



Barely touched it and it broke free, next stop could have been the connecting rod shells.



100000 miles here I come.



Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #129 on: September 23, 2019, 02:24:47 AM »
Excellent pictures and work Les! Can't wait to see the bike back together! :)
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #130 on: September 23, 2019, 09:42:28 PM »
HMB billet rear bearing flange swarf, fully checked and deburred.
The oil filter does little at start up, any junk in the oil ways will have done the damage already.
















LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #131 on: September 23, 2019, 11:27:25 PM »
The camshaft is a NOS later version with the drilled centre / center for the two oil holes for hopefully long life of the lobes.



We still remember the Rainbow Warrior but forgive you, enough to like and use Facom torque wrenches (My others are USA made) but we go 'froggie euro today.
The clearance in the 6 mm holes is enough for the thrust ID to rub on the camshaft, not with some budget printer paper shims.



Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #132 on: September 24, 2019, 08:36:27 AM »


Not sealing the cam plug? They don't always leak, but I don't like risking it. Did you put some sort of sealer on the two bottom bolts securing the bearing flange? They're below oil level and can leak if not.
Charlie

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #133 on: September 24, 2019, 04:45:42 PM »
I put 1207B on the lower portion of the case threads (10 mm or so) from the inside with a cotton tip and blue Loctite gel to the upper portion of the bolt, the clean end of the bolt should wind into the sealer, the upper portion should should bond with the 248.
I am still thinking about that cam plug, the flywheel will go on this morning so that window is closing and probably better to do it than not.



LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #134 on: September 25, 2019, 01:53:05 AM »
........... and things grind to a halt once again.

Brand new connecting rod bolts, not one shank the same (Under and over 9mm OD ), not one thread diameter the same.
I have a few spare sets of rods so measured the bolts which still had shiny unmarked shanks, the new one above measured 0.04mm (nearly 0.002") larger in OD so no wonder it will never fit.
I can't think of any bolt you need to push in with a hydraulic press.



Edit.

I removed the black coating on the new bolts an am willing to bet these are sourced from India, the shanks do not look to be precision ground so explains why the diameters are all over the place.
The finish on the original bolt is much better than the picture shows but night and day between the two finishs but that does not help with any progress which amounts to near nothng today and if better bolts can be brought, that could be weeks away.



« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 02:38:07 AM by LesP »

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2019, 03:41:56 AM »
I had look up where I got these pieces of crap which will go in the bin.

Stein-Dinse in Germany was the source purchased back in 2015
It is a concern when a quick search returned this reply on Guzzi Tech.

Quote
One more point regarding conrod bolts, there are bolts being sold now by "a big and renown after-market dealer" in Europe, that have caused catastrophic failure in a newly overhauled racing engine for a friend of mine. Bolts were fitted brand new by a competent mechanic. One start to wonder where they get their stuff from some times. There are many statements like "never from there again" being heard among the classic racing folks around here....

Could the above be related to SD no longer stocking bolts, nuts only.

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?products_id=109

Edit.
I see HMB grind them to size which would explain everything I found, not round, not finish ground... !@#$.

https://hmb-guzzi.de/Conrod-screw-T3-LM-etc

Quote
Our screws fit the conrods !  There are screws on the market where the factory forgot to finish these, leaving them unfinished and too thick to fit the conrod bores. But not only that, they are not perfectly round, affecting bearing play. We had them finished to perfectly fit your conrods. Of course this is a price issue, but Engine crank  damages do not occur by coincidence. Our manufacture engines are equipped with these screws, without any damages, since we began !
[/qu0te]
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 06:45:49 AM by LesP »

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2019, 05:25:20 AM »
I can't do much until I get another set of bolts so measured these ones from SD.

Measurements for the OEM bolts are uniform and all OD measurements are metric.

The two OEM Moto Guzzi bolts measured  8.99mm - 8.99mm - 8.9mm, nice bolts and the shoulders are round.
They were very uniform.

The bolts supplied by SD.
Shoulder OD / shoulder OD / thread OD

9mm - 9mm - 8.77mm 

9.01mm - 8.99mm - 8.9mm *** only one that came close to fitting.

9.01mm - 9.02mm - 8.9mm

8.99mm - 9.01mm - 8.69mm

All measured by micrometer.
The shoulders on the above bolts are not round and only one bolt fit into a con rod at the first shoulder.
I think I dodged a bullet with this junk.

The centre bolt is out of the rods being used (1993 GT)



Offline shiskowd

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2019, 01:42:57 PM »
I put 1207B on the lower portion of the case threads (10 mm or so) from the inside with a cotton tip and blue Loctite gel to the upper portion of the bolt, the clean end of the bolt should wind into the sealer, the upper portion should should bond with the 248.
I am still thinking about that cam plug, the flywheel will go on this morning so that window is closing and probably better to do it than not.

I like this sealing strategy for the two bottom bolts in the bearing hub.

Couple of questions:

a) you don't use the tab locks on the bearing bolts but what looks like wave washers.  Any particular reason?

b) what is this cam plug that can leak??

Great thread - very informative!
'14 KTM 500 EXC
'10 KTM 690R Rally
'75 Moto Guzzi 850T

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2019, 03:40:25 PM »
I never liked those fold over tabs on any bike so used any excuse not to use them so use Blue Loctite 248 in the Gel sticks applicator works for me.

( I work on a lot of bikes so it is not just related to Moto Guzzi, my Italian bike knowledge is Ducati beveldrive based going back to 1983, first full engine rebuild in 1985 including shimming the crankshaft and not following the manual which said no axial clearance on the main bearings, I did not believe that so gave them 0.003" preload, not  a bad guess it seems (0.004")

The cam plug (A form of Welch plug I guess) is the one at the rear of the engine case above the rear main bearing flange. (I read about it possibly leaking, and most likely from Charlie M)

You need to be careful with washers especially on alloy.

Wave washers on alloy. (MG Cycle)

Schnorr washers on steel. (They will more than likely sink into the alloy so not recommended on that material)

I would imagine McMaster-Carr would have both.

If I am ever in doubt I soon find the answer from Charlie Mullendore (Charlie M /Antietam Classic Cycle) or http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi.html




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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #139 on: September 25, 2019, 03:51:09 PM »
I might add, not just any old M8 wave washer - DIN 137 wave washers. McMaster-Carr doesn't seem to have them (the stainless ones claim to be DIN 137 but are thin and not very springy), so I usually buy them in bulk from Fastenal. They're a bit thicker and stiffer than others. This is what Guzzi started using after the locking plates on engines and rear drives, and I believe it was a positive change.

I always apply JB Weld to the cam plug. Best to rough up the surface first.

To seal the bottom two bolts, I liberally apply Hondabond 4, which also acts as a low-strength thread locker. I use the same stuff on the oil return pipe - liberally coating the crush washers during assembly.

Other related stuff: the breather pipe gasket surfaces and rear flange gasket surfaces get a light coating of Permatex Aviation or 300 (pretty much the same stuff). Same with the lower third of the timing cover gasket surfaces. 

Just they way I do it. I hate leaks, so do my customers. 
Charlie

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #140 on: September 25, 2019, 03:51:19 PM »
Its a new day of course and my engine is sitting on the bench, assembly stalled and had expected to put it back into the frame today.
This photo is dated ‎Friday, ‎2 ‎August ‎2013, ‏‎12:21:16 PM and the engine would have been removed not long later after finding the grooves in the cylinder bores.



I would not have expected a con rod bolt to hold things up, they are not something you sand or screw with to fit, they have a push fit to align the caps and hold things together.

 

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #141 on: September 25, 2019, 04:28:53 PM »
Its a new day of course and my engine is sitting on the bench, assembly stalled and had expected to put it back into the frame today.
This photo is dated ‎Friday, ‎2 ‎August ‎2013, ‏‎12:21:16 PM and the engine would have been removed not long later after finding the grooves in the cylinder bores.



I would not have expected a con rod bolt to hold things up, they are not something you sand or screw with to fit, they have a push fit to align the caps and hold things together.

Unless they've stretched, I reuse the originals. I once had a used one tested to failure by a friend that works at Mack Trucks (Volvo Powertrain). He was very impressed with the amount of tension necessary to make it snap and opined that I should never have any issues with reusing them in a street ridden Guzzi engine.
Charlie

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #142 on: September 25, 2019, 05:02:47 PM »
Thanks for the reply Charlie.
That is what I have been thinking, look the original bolts over and polish them and I guess use those new nuts on them.

I think also those new bolts have cut threads, the OEM look rolled........ I need the Eldorado to come out of the blocks like a champ once back on the road (not that I had it on a road before) so it needs all good parts.
I figured if I do 10000 miles a week on it for a couple of years I  might catch up to you and Mr Adams.  :laugh:

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #143 on: September 25, 2019, 05:56:08 PM »
Off again, those new bolts also have a very small radius on the shank to head so in the bin they will go.
Weight balanced each end, new bushes and big end refurbished to round.

The original bolts from these rods (1993) are a little thicker than the earlier version and have a bigger transition from the shoulders to shank, polished and back into service.
We will hope those new nuts are not made from chinesium.





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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #144 on: September 25, 2019, 08:27:56 PM »
Love it  :thumb: :grin:
Oz
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As ye practice, so do ye teach.

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2019, 06:33:34 AM »
I got on the phone to Mario and ordered another set of connecting rod bearing shells which should be here next week along with  a braided oil line for the cylinder heads.

When I rang the balance shop initially I told them the (US$115) shells were still in the rods from the crank grinding, should I remove them ?........ No they will be fine, we are only weighing the rods ends and then proceeded to linish the rods for weight balance and all the crap ended up on the bearings.
I washed them in kerosene but was not happy with surface so another set (AU$140+ post) to replace them.

I will make a flywheel holding tool tomorrow and put the distributor together after shimming.

One step forward, one sideways and then a figure 8.


LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #146 on: September 26, 2019, 06:26:29 PM »
Wow, from the other side of Australia to an island off Queensland by the next morning, add another $244 to the total and confirmation about the quality of the bearings they replace.



Online balvenie

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #147 on: September 26, 2019, 10:40:31 PM »
Yep, whenever I did business with Mario, he was always that fast :grin: :thumb:
Oz
04 Cali
As ye practice, so do ye teach.

LesP

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #148 on: September 27, 2019, 03:49:47 AM »
Remember the eBay dude who sent me these new  slides that were the wrong cutaway and then said he did not make the size I had received and then a couple of weeks later was listing both sizes.

That ended up being not so bad after all going to the bigger bore engine since then, thanks Charlie for the input.......... Slides machined to 4 mm cutaway which I could not have done if I had received the ones I had ordered.





Count the passes with a 3 mm ball nose cutter, the slides are as about as aerodynamic as a brick, maybe that finish will give a little turbulence at the step.
I still have the Dellorto 32 mm PHF's I brought back from the old country trip before last (and some of the later alloy manifolds) but that will be a project way down the track.







Offline Rick4003

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Re: Eldorado and the quest to ride a Moto Guzzi for the first time.
« Reply #149 on: September 28, 2019, 02:08:35 PM »
 :thumb: :popcorn:

Looks very good all of it!
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

 

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