Author Topic: Powdercoating  (Read 10528 times)

spyvito

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Powdercoating
« on: January 18, 2014, 03:36:35 PM »
Guys and Gals,
I'm a new Guzzi owner and new to the forum so please don't think I am posting to advertise but I wanted to post up some information in case you are looking to powercoat some small, or even big parts.  When I searched for someone to color match some Stucchi grab handles all of the big shops wanted a $150+ minimum or were too busy to take the job.  I remembered a card I got for Creative Candy Powderdcoating in Dawsonville, GA.

This is a one man, in-home operation run by Marc who is an ex car racer and a bike guy (ask him about the Harley 1320XL speed record racer) who speaks our language.  He did the handle parts for $60 the same day he received them.  I picked up the parts and talking with him, he can do frames, wheels as well as small parts.

If you need a source for powdercoating, www.creativecandy.o rg, o1racing03@aol.com. 



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Re: Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2014, 04:21:32 PM »
Nice...looks good!
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Offline clubman

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2014, 04:59:40 PM »
Thanks for the info. I live in South Ga. and just had big time problems with one so called pro powder coater on some parts for my V7C. Sent some stuff off to the other oufit nearest to me yesterday. Hope that works out better. I have a large project planned for the future so I hope I can find someone I can count on.
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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2014, 05:33:45 PM »
Guess I should consider myself lucky. The shop I use is good, quick (usually a week or less) and reasonably priced. Best of all they're close, 9 miles away.
Charlie

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2014, 05:33:45 PM »

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2014, 06:18:37 PM »
 ;-T

Thanks for the info
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dilligaf

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 08:02:28 AM »
Guess I should consider myself lucky. The shop I use is good, quick (usually a week or less) and reasonably priced. Best of all they're close, 9 miles away.

 :+1  Looks like we both are.  My guy is about 10 miles away.  ;-T  :BEER:
Matt


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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 09:08:20 AM »
those handles look fantastic!
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canuck750

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2014, 10:46:03 AM »
Or you can do it yourself, I bought an inexpensive powder coat kit from Eastwood Automotive off Ebay a couple of years ago, that and a $10.00 used wall oven on Kijiji and I can do all of the small stuff at home. It is so unbelievably easy to do and the results are great. I recommend this to anyone who is into cars, bikes etc.

You need a small air compressor (only 5 ~ 10 psi), a plastic sheet to catch the powder, something to hang the parts on while you spray them ( I use a scrap of steel and a step ladder )  that will carry the electric current to the part (I use jumper cables I made with Radio Shack alligator clips). The parts must be very clean, wire wheel or bead blast and a wipe down with a solvent.



Bake in the oven for 20 minutes an 375F, this is a wrinkle black powder



Gloss being baked



Let it cool down and you get a great finish



The only tricky bit is transferring the parts you sprayed with dry powder to the oven without knocking the part against the oven and bumping the powder off, if that happens just res-pray and back into the oven. 1st coat not enough? just spray it again over the cure 1st coat and back into the oven.

I am limited by the size of the oven so big items go to the pros, but for all of the finicky small stuff the DIY kit can not be beat.

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2014, 11:02:44 AM »
I have considered the Eastwood route but don't exactly want an oven sitting there taking up space. Then again, I'd probably start powder coating everything. Look out lawnmower,etc.,etc.
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canuck750

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2014, 11:10:00 AM »
Wall oven fits under the work bench, beside a pull out shelf for the ultrasonic cleaner beside a small bar sink, total width of bench is about 4'-6"


Offline kirb

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2014, 03:25:06 PM »
I bought my own rig and do my own stuff. I picked up a tall, narrow proofing stainless oven from a restaurant auction cheap for larger parts, I also use a 12"x12"x12" toaster oven for small parts and bolts.
I usually can do small parts much quicker than paint.

canuck750

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2014, 10:17:08 PM »
That is brilliant! :+1

Jim

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 03:04:34 PM »
Good report David.  I was wondering how the powder coating was going since your last post on the oven. ;-T
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oceanluvr

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 05:13:58 AM »
I was a co-owner of the largest powder coating job shop in the SE from 1977 to 1987.  We had 25,000 sq ft facility with a several ovens, a 400' conveyor line, a 3-stage phosphate spray washer, dip tanks and fluid beds, along with two spray boots with 8 guns.  We coated everything from outdoor furniture to over 50,000 windshield wipe blades per day for a company called Pylon.  The key to a lasting finish is proper pre-treatment and adequate cure time that cures the most dense or thickest part without over baking the thinner material.  There are two conditions that must be met to achieve proper cure of a powder coating. Time and temperature. The time/temperature requirements of a particular powder - epoxy, polyester or hybrids must be achieved to obtain a full cure. A cured thermoset powder coating will not re-melt upon further heating. Most large PC use a datapag to determine the correct time/temp.  Sandblasting is not always the best route to go when preparing a part for coating.  Iron and/or zinc conversion coatings  deposits a coating on the piece that provides surface that is more adhesive and corrosion resistant.  To test for how clean a part is you can use a"water break free" test. Basically this test if water fully sheets over the clean part or draws away from portions of the surface,  There are more sophisticated tests as well.  To test for a properly cured coating one can do a cross hatch test on a sample part.  Finally epoxy powders do not take a second coat very well as opposed to polyesters, so simply re-coating is not the best way to go.  Stripping the part and starting over is recommended. When done right powder coating is one of the best coatings to apply, but when not prepared properly or under-cured, failures happen and the coating can chip off under the slightest impact, bubble up from corrosion or flake.  Just thought you guys should have a little info prior to taking your parts to a PC, since there are some that do it right and some that just do it.  
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 05:15:00 AM by oceanluvr »

Penderic

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 05:55:03 AM »
Those parts look great, Roadkill! Nice job.

I really like the durability of powder coating. Only things that I dont like about powder coating is how thick it can be and how it must be removed between any fasteners and their fittings or the fasteners will loosen in time. All holes and flanges on the cleaned parts have to be plugged or covered up or they will have to be reamed out or retapped, and the powder coating removed.

I had my 84 Goldwing almost completely powder coated  - new frame, engine cases, most of the chrome -years ago. Got tired of keeping all the bling clean and shiny for many years. Lots of parts lots of money.

Learned from the people doing the job about the importance of cleaning the metal surfaces and preheating the parts for hours before cooling and applying the powder. It was critical in order to cook out the surface impurities. That was their secret to a very durable coating and their work was very highly regarded in the industry.




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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2014, 09:50:22 AM »
I did powdercoating in the Navy back in the 90's. One thing we found is you must have the surface to be coated properly profiled. That means blasted. The powder "keys" into the profiled surface and grips it once cured. That gives you the good adhesion you need. We found that just applying the PC over a phosphated surface would lead to the PC peeling off in large pieces several years later.
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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2015, 09:31:00 AM »
Great thread, a little old, but I think it's perfect for a question so I'll post my question here:
Are there any issues with heating metal parts for powdercoating? The reason I ask is that I want to powdercoat the side stand "police stand" on my G5, but it seems to be made of some sort of tempered metal. Would baking it pre and post powdercoating weaken the stand? I'm already paranoid using the side stand as it seems to hold quite of bit of weight when the bike is leaning like that, so the idea of powdercoating it is making even more nervous - maybe I should just paint it...

What are the thoughts on this? Also, is baking the powdercoat at a lower temp or using InfraRed light bulbs valid options on not messing with the metal's temper state, but still getting a good finish?

Thanks for any advice on this matter!
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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2015, 01:07:27 PM »
I was a co-owner of the largest powder coating job shop in the SE from 1977 to 1987.  We had 25,000 sq ft facility with a several ovens, a 400' conveyor line, a 3-stage phosphate spray washer, dip tanks and fluid beds, along with two spray boots with 8 guns.  We coated everything from outdoor furniture to over 50,000 windshield wipe blades per day for a company called Pylon.  The key to a lasting finish is proper pre-treatment and adequate cure time that cures the most dense or thickest part without over baking the thinner material.  There are two conditions that must be met to achieve proper cure of a powder coating. Time and temperature. The time/temperature requirements of a particular powder - epoxy, polyester or hybrids must be achieved to obtain a full cure. A cured thermoset powder coating will not re-melt upon further heating. Most large PC use a datapag to determine the correct time/temp.  Sandblasting is not always the best route to go when preparing a part for coating.  Iron and/or zinc conversion coatings  deposits a coating on the piece that provides surface that is more adhesive and corrosion resistant.  To test for how clean a part is you can use a"water break free" test. Basically this test if water fully sheets over the clean part or draws away from portions of the surface,  There are more sophisticated tests as well.  To test for a properly cured coating one can do a cross hatch test on a sample part.  Finally epoxy powders do not take a second coat very well as opposed to polyesters, so simply re-coating is not the best way to go.  Stripping the part and starting over is recommended. When done right powder coating is one of the best coatings to apply, but when not prepared properly or under-cured, failures happen and the coating can chip off under the slightest impact, bubble up from corrosion or flake.  Just thought you guys should have a little info prior to taking your parts to a PC, since there are some that do it right and some that just do it.  
Great information OceanLover.  I found someone on craigslist who said if I sandblasted my complete frame and swing arm, he would charge $100 for black/matte black/white (Cheaper than a paint job).  I was kind of shocked how cheap the price was, but skeptical because I've seen powder coated parts turn ugly over time.  I have to reblast the frame after everything is mocked up, but can you tell me about Iron/Zinc conversion coatings?  I'm not familiar with that process, but I want my powder coat to last

oldbike54

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2015, 01:10:43 PM »
Great thread, a little old, but I think it's perfect for a question so I'll post my question here:
Are there any issues with heating metal parts for powdercoating? The reason I ask is that I want to powdercoat the side stand "police stand" on my G5, but it seems to be made of some sort of tempered metal. Would baking it pre and post powdercoating weaken the stand? I'm already paranoid using the side stand as it seems to hold quite of bit of weight when the bike is leaning like that, so the idea of powdercoating it is making even more nervous - maybe I should just paint it...

What are the thoughts on this? Also, is baking the powdercoat at a lower temp or using InfraRed light bulbs valid options on not messing with the metal's temper state, but still getting a good finish?

Thanks for any advice on this matter!



 The temps needed for powdercoating will not affect any metal that I am aware of .

  Dusty

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2015, 01:48:37 PM »
Figure a 'nominal' temperature @400ºf, and a 'nominal' time of 15 minutes with the PART (not the oven) at temp.  There are powders that vary in temp and time.  To finish prep we 'outgass' the part at temp or above for at least the amount of time the powder will be curing.  The idea is that anything that's going to boil out of the metal during coating will have already flashed.  If this step isn't done you can get pits, pimples, and blisters in the coating.

So any metal you coat must be able to withstand this treatment.  I wouldn't worry a bit about the sidestand.  

The poster who mentioned doing a sandblasted frame for $100 -- I'd take a look at his oven before I committed to a $100 frame job.  A frame is 'large' for a powdercoater.  An oven large enough to handle it would be really expensive.  At $100 the shop is probably losing money if they have the right equipment.  More likely they're doing it in an open room with either a heat gun or heat lamps to cure it, and since the lights and timers and trollys and such for proper heat lamp curing are also quite expensive, I question if they've even got that.  

Now a GOOD shop will also use heat lamps to cure a large part like a trailer frame, but they have it in a controlled booth with the lights on a trolly timed to keep the metal at the right temp for the right time.  So don't think that just because heat lamps are used the job will be inferior.

We've got a nut job in town who claims to be a powdercoater.  He's the same guy that had a tank of mine 'next on his list' for over a year.  This guy sprays the powder in the grease bay and cures the parts in a gym locker with a hotplate in the bottom.  He has no facilities for prepping or decontaminating parts, no process control, and the gym locker has vents that let cold, dirty air blow through whenever the shop bay doors are open.  His jobs look like hammered horseshit, but don't last as long as a pile of horse apples.  I suspect he's they guy who bid your $100 job.

By contrast, my oven is 42 x 42 x 38, sealed, double-walled and insulated.  It is a diy job that cost about $250 in bought parts.  It has 1.6Kw of heating coils and a process controller that regulates the temperature within one degree (f) of target, ramps the heat up evenly, and stops it on time.  The interior will swing a 36" cube and has an arrangement of hangers and brackets to jig up all sorts of odd shapes.  It's a big box, but it's limited to a couple of wheels, one tank, two fenders, etc on account of you need to get the stuff into the box without touching it or it touching anything else, and you need to hang it at as uniform a distance from the heat source as possible for even temperature throughout the part.  One bump and you're back in the booth fixing it.  One end hanging too close to the heat and the finish gloss is uneven.





« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 01:49:33 PM by rodekyll »

Offline Tobit

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2015, 02:21:54 PM »


The handles look great.  If there's a passenger with you while running to the very edge of the tire like you are, I'm sure the handles will come in, er, very handy.

Beautiful Guzzi!

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2015, 02:40:56 PM »

The poster who mentioned doing a sandblasted frame for $100 -- I'd take a look at his oven before I committed to a $100 frame job.  A frame is 'large' for a powdercoater.  An oven large enough to handle it would be really expensive.  At $100 the shop is probably losing money if they have the right equipment.  More likely they're doing it in an open room with either a heat gun or heat lamps to cure it, and since the lights and timers and trollys and such for proper heat lamp curing are also quite expensive, I question if they've even got that.  


I'm pretty sure you're right on, if it sounds too good to be true....

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2015, 02:55:36 PM »
Thanks for the replies to my questions. Makes me feel a little better. The side stand metal is a little different than the rest of the frame parts from what I can tell (or at least it appears that way to me). I think it's the only part that is not black coated for the side stands of that era (81 G5) (more of a rough finish silver) so I wondered if there was a reason for that.

Sounds like I need to shop around my area to see who does what and how well.. That's always fun.
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2015, 03:47:52 PM »
I think the reason is that the side stand came from a different source than the frame, and based on the variances I see in finish, workmanship, and styles of feet and retractor 'helpers' they come from many sources.  Some are exact copies of the HD version -- and probably made by the same outfit. 

My personal feeling about the off-silver ones v black is that the silver ones are easier to notice out of the corner of your eye in the dark.  That can be handy.

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2015, 04:07:31 PM »
I think the reason is that the side stand came from a different source than the frame, and based on the variances I see in finish, workmanship, and styles of feet and retractor 'helpers' they come from many sources.  Some are exact copies of the HD version -- and probably made by the same outfit. 

My personal feeling about the off-silver ones v black is that the silver ones are easier to notice out of the corner of your eye in the dark.  That can be handy.

Makes sense. Thanks again!
1981 Moto Guzzi V1000G5
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, a
1987 Moto Guzzi LM1000SE, b
1980 Piaggio Vespa P200E
1980 Piaggio Vespa P125X
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1980 Vespa SI Moped
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canuck750

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2015, 05:29:24 PM »
Figure a 'nominal' temperature @400ºf, and a 'nominal' time of 15 minutes with the PART (not the oven) at temp.  There are powders that vary in temp and time.  To finish prep we 'outgass' the part at temp or above for at least the amount of time the powder will be curing.  The idea is that anything that's going to boil out of the metal during coating will have already flashed.  If this step isn't done you can get pits, pimples, and blisters in the coating.

So any metal you coat must be able to withstand this treatment.  I wouldn't worry a bit about the sidestand.  

The poster who mentioned doing a sandblasted frame for $100 -- I'd take a look at his oven before I committed to a $100 frame job.  A frame is 'large' for a powdercoater.  An oven large enough to handle it would be really expensive.  At $100 the shop is probably losing money if they have the right equipment.  More likely they're doing it in an open room with either a heat gun or heat lamps to cure it, and since the lights and timers and trollys and such for proper heat lamp curing are also quite expensive, I question if they've even got that.  

Now a GOOD shop will also use heat lamps to cure a large part like a trailer frame, but they have it in a controlled booth with the lights on a trolly timed to keep the metal at the right temp for the right time.  So don't think that just because heat lamps are used the job will be inferior.

We've got a nut job in town who claims to be a powdercoater.  He's the same guy that had a tank of mine 'next on his list' for over a year.  This guy sprays the powder in the grease bay and cures the parts in a gym locker with a hotplate in the bottom.  He has no facilities for prepping or decontaminating parts, no process control, and the gym locker has vents that let cold, dirty air blow through whenever the shop bay doors are open.  His jobs look like hammered horseshit, but don't last as long as a pile of horse apples.  I suspect he's they guy who bid your $100 job.

By contrast, my oven is 42 x 42 x 38, sealed, double-walled and insulated.  It is a diy job that cost about $250 in bought parts.  It has 1.6Kw of heating coils and a process controller that regulates the temperature within one degree (f) of target, ramps the heat up evenly, and stops it on time.  The interior will swing a 36" cube and has an arrangement of hangers and brackets to jig up all sorts of odd shapes.  It's a big box, but it's limited to a couple of wheels, one tank, two fenders, etc on account of you need to get the stuff into the box without touching it or it touching anything else, and you need to hang it at as uniform a distance from the heat source as possible for even temperature throughout the part.  One bump and you're back in the booth fixing it.  One end hanging too close to the heat and the finish gloss is uneven.








Wow,
great DIY oven, I wish I had the space to build one of those, nice work!

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Powdercoating
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2015, 07:07:40 PM »
Thanks.  It was an effort.  :D  If I had the space and did it again I'd make it 2x in all directions and lower to the ground.  Otherwise I'm pretty happy with it.

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