Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)

[Kev m]

I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that officer can testify all day long and the defense attorney says your honor where is the victim in this case? If the victim is  incapacitated then the state can press charges for the victim But if like a lot of domestic abuse cases the victim refuse to testify the perp walks.

No, your understanding is not correct.

Again, just think about murder charges. The victim doesn't "testify".

Civil cases require someone who has been victimized to be the plaintiff. Criminal cases do not.

[JoeB]

 What's the employee policy manual procedure for this? Should have one, follow it to protect yourself. Whatever his intentions are he needs to be educated.

[redrider90]

What you witnessed was battery of a sexual nature. You stated that it was “clear violation of sexual harassment that took place 3 feet from you in another department. It was blatantly disgusting.  It bothered you enough to confront the victim. But because it did not occur in your jurisdiction you were powerless to help her?
You as a supervisor and witness had the responsibility to notify the Office for Institutional Equity of the incident and whoever condoned your inaction also condoned the abuse.
Now imagine your wife or daughter or your mother having to work with that man every day.

NOPE. I sat in the room with a whole lot of women who were also in training and they all understood completely the corporate position.
How can you tell me I had a responsibility to notify a non existent "Office of Institutional Equity" when Duke does not or at least then they did not have such an office.
How can you tell me the I had a responsibility to do something and I was told by the legal team that was in charged with training supervisors that I did the correct thing.
The guy did not attack this women; he very very smoothly moved his body across this women while she was standing in front of a microwave oven. He used the opportunity to touch her in appropriately as he slid by. It was a slick maneuver but not only did he put his hands on her hips but he slid by her touching waist to waist making it appear as if the space was very tight using that as reason for the closeness. It was obvious she did not like it. I could tell when I addressed her in the hallway and she said forget I do not want to go there. You cannot force people to pursue "sexual harassment" if they do not want to.

[Nic in Western NYS]

It's a shame this guy isn't reading this thread (and a shame his wife if he has one isn't reading it - consequences might be severe indeed!). 

[oldbike54]

It's a shame this guy isn't reading this thread (and a shame his wife if he has one isn't reading it - consequences might be severe indeed!). 

 Yeah , but we have been informed that the manager is single and lives with his mom . Not surprising  ;)  ;) ;)


  Dusty

[Nic in Western NYS]

Yeah , but we have been informed that the manager is single and lives with his mom . Not surprising  ;)  ;) ;)



  Dusty

Ah yes - replace "wife" with "mother" - maybe the same consequences

[oldbike54]

Ah yes - replace "wife" with "mother" - maybe the same consequences

 :D :D :D

  Or maybe the young lady's dad  :o

   Dusty

[Dean Rose]

NOPE. I sat in the room with a whole lot of women who were also in training and they all understood completely the corporate position.
How can you tell me I had a responsibility to notify a non existent "Office of Institutional Equity" when Duke does not or at least then they did not have such an office.
How can you tell me the I had a responsibility to do something and I was told by the legal team that was in charged with training supervisors that I did the correct thing.
The guy did not attack this women; he very very smoothly moved his body across this women while she was standing in front of a microwave oven. He used the opportunity to touch her in appropriately as he slid by. It was a slick maneuver but not only did he put his hands on her hips but he slid by her touching waist to waist making it appear as if the space was very tight using that as reason for the closeness. It was obvious she did not like it. I could tell when I addressed her in the hallway and she said forget I do not want to go there. You cannot force people to pursue "sexual harassment" if they do not want to.

I noticed that you didn’t respond to my asking how you’d like your wife or daughter or your mother having to work with that man every day. We have to assume he still had his job supervising and was able to continue his behavior. Kudos.
My reasoning comes from my upbringing as well as training I had in the corporate world along with a wife who, for over 20 years trained, gave seminars and conducted investigations of sexual harassment. She told me about people who just didn’t get it. You are one of them and nothing I say or that the law states will change your view. You are one of those good men who do nothing and allow bad things to happen.


Dean

[oldbike54]

 Easy fellas , Dean , actually RR90 is a stout defender of women's rights , and really is on the side of good . And Harvey , Dean is the same . Let's not start a fight among allies gentleman .

  Dusty

[Sasquatch Jim]

  Why ever should we argue?  We all agree that the boss was an asshole who took advantage of his position to victimize women
 for the edification of his own ego and the hope that it might result in an intimate act.
 He is very desreving of a fist in the face and a boot in the balls, and of course a place in the unemployment line.
 On this we all agree.  We just have different ideas on how it should be done.

[Lannis]

Easy fellas , Dean , actually RR90 is a stout defender of women's rights , and really is on the side of good .
  Dusty

So were Teddy K. and Slick Willie ..... so that's no comfort.

RR90's understanding of the law and the current corporate policies that ensure compliance are a little bit out of date, that's all.   He's 7 years older than me, it's been a while since he sat through that training class.

Lannis

[redrider90]

I noticed that you didn’t respond to my asking how you’d like your wife or daughter or your mother having to work with that man every day. We have to assume he still had his job supervising and was able to continue his behavior. Kudos.
My reasoning comes from my upbringing as well as training I had in the corporate world along with a wife who, for over 20 years trained, gave seminars and conducted investigations of sexual harassment. She told me about people who just didn’t get it. You are one of them and nothing I say or that the law states will change your view. You are one of those good men who do nothing and allow bad things to happen.


Dean

My wife, mother and do not have a daughter can make their own decisions and this story is not about them.  I am not Michael Dukakis and your question suggests that I need to interfere with my wife's decisions. If this women had wanted to proceed with addressing what happened I would have been a witness. She declined. You do not get it.  This woman has a MS degree, is a highly trained qualified medical professional had has the right to make her own decisions. If fact you are telling me I should ignore her decision and violate her decision and overrule her decision and take it to a higher source against her will. Effectively causing her grief she did not want to take on. I honored her decision.
So first she gets violated by some creep and then I force her into something she does not want to do. If I was the supervisor of the creep I would have the right to right him up. In that case I would be charging him with something and the woman would be the witness and not the accuser. Obviously she did not want to be the accuser and she had a right to make that decision herself. All the women in the training room who were supervisors agreed with my stance (and by the way complemented me on addresses the situation with the women. A lot of men I was told would not have stepped forward) says that maybe you have something to learn. Also I was 100% backed by the those teaching the class that i acted appropriately also speaks volumes.

[redrider90]

So were Teddy K. and Slick Willie ..... so that's no comfort.

RR90's understanding of the law and the current corporate policies that ensure compliance are a little bit out of date, that's all.   He's 7 years older than me, it's been a while since he sat through that training class.

Lannis

Lannis are you a lawyer?

[Kev m]

RR to be clear, in this discussion I'm not judging your actions.

[Lannis]

Lannis are you a lawyer?

No, but I play one on TV.

I worked hundreds of people over the years and attended dozens of classes given by employment lawyers, watching the harassment laws and work procedures develop over the years.   I HAD to know them to do my job.  

Everyone else has got it right on this one and you've got it wrong.   It's OK, neither one of us is in a position to screw up anyone's career any more because we might be wrong.   The OP has got the right info, at this point we're just comparing cranks.

Lannis

[youcanrunnaked]

NOPE. I sat in the room with a whole lot of women who were also in training and they all understood completely the corporate position.
How can you tell me I had a responsibility to notify a non existent "Office of Institutional Equity" when Duke does not or at least then they did not have such an office.
How can you tell me the I had a responsibility to do something and I was told by the legal team that was in charged with training supervisors that I did the correct thing.
The guy did not attack this women; he very very smoothly moved his body across this women while she was standing in front of a microwave oven. He used the opportunity to touch her in appropriately as he slid by. It was a slick maneuver but not only did he put his hands on her hips but he slid by her touching waist to waist making it appear as if the space was very tight using that as reason for the closeness. It was obvious she did not like it. I could tell when I addressed her in the hallway and she said forget I do not want to go there. You cannot force people to pursue "sexual harassment" if they do not want to.

Sexual harassment involves inappropriate actions of a sexual or gender-based nature that are both offensive and unwelcome.  The test is what would be considered inappropriately sex-based, offensive and unwelcome to a reasonable person, but the person affected must actually believe the particular act to be of a sexual or gender-based nature, offensive and unwelcome.  If the "victim" does not claim that the actions were any of those things, it's hard to make a case for sexual harassment.  In the context of the "smooth move" that you witnessed, add in the fact that the action is itself equivocal, and you have a bad case to take to HR.  To those arguing that the victim's wishes should be ignored in this instance, keep in mind that the consequences for being identified as a victim of sexual harassment are not always beneficial for the victim, so the ultimate decision to identify as the victim should be in the hands of the person directly affected.

For whatever reason, the woman you offered to assist did not want your "help."  Outing her as a victim of workplace sexual harassment, either "for her own good," or for "the good of the company," is a tough call.  I might second-guess you on this if you had knowledge at the time that the offending male had a history of such conduct, but otherwise, I think you handled the situation appropriately.

[Kev m]

Sexual harassment involves inappropriate actions of a sexual or gender-based nature that are both offensive and unwelcome.  The test is what would be considered inappropriately sex-based, offensive and unwelcome to a reasonable person, but the person affected must actually believe the particular act to be of a sexual or gender-based nature, offensive and unwelcome.  If the "victim" does not claim that the actions were any of those things, it's hard to make a case for sexual harassment.  In the context of the "smooth move" that you witnessed, add in the fact that the action is itself equivocal, and you have a bad case to take to HR.  To those arguing that the victim's wishes should be ignored in this instance, keep in mind that the consequences for being identified as a victim of sexual harassment are not always beneficial for the victim, so the ultimate decision to identify as the victim should be in the hands of the person directly affected.

For whatever reason, the woman you offered to assist did not want your "help."  Outing her as a victim of workplace sexual harassment, either "for her own good," or for "the good of the company," is a tough call.  I might second-guess you on this if you had knowledge at the time that the offending male had a history of such conduct, but otherwise, I think you handled the situation appropriately.

Agreed....

[bratman2]

I agree also. Many people would have just been disgusted and walked away from what you witnessed. My post was to point out the differences between company policies. Our company employees 5k in several countries. the policy is the same at all facilities and even extends out to report abuse if by customer, contractor, guest or salesman. They may not be able to terminate them but they would be banned from all of our sites. I guess our policy is geared towards zero tolerance.

One example at my company that I am familiar with was our Chemical plant manager. He had words with a fellow foreman that I worked with. On a couple of occasions. There was a little animosity between them. The manager which at one time had been our superintendent. The man always treated me with the utmost respect, just saying. He also was a 25 year employee and about as smart as they come. But he held a grudge and could be a bully of sorts. My coworker's wife goes to work for the head office. The manager starts a small harassment campaign against her. Not touching her but badgering her at every opportunity. She reported the abusive behavior to her superintendent which was a woman. They were in the public affairs department. Her boss did nothing. My coworkers wife reported it to corporate HR after the bullying continued. After the investigation both the manager and the superintendent were fired. 

[oldbike54]

 The truly sad part of this is , some folks need a thousand page legal document and formal classroom training to know how we should treat each other . The REALLY sad part , the lesson is apparently too difficult for a few to
learn  :(

  Dusty

[redrider90]

For whatever reason, the woman you offered to assist did not want your "help."  Outing her as a victim of workplace sexual harassment, either "for her own good," or for "the good of the company," is a tough call.  I might second-guess you on this if you had knowledge at the time that the offending male had a history of such conduct, but otherwise, I think you handled the situation appropriately.

Thank you. You understand. I had no previous knowledge if this guy had a history of such behavior. It was lunch and I was in an office. People were milling about  everywhere getting their lunches. The women was standing in front of a microwave and I was talking to someone else.The guy slipped through the "tight spot" and did his thing in just a matter of seconds it was over. I was shocked.  It happened that fast. I approached the woman after lunch in the hall as she was returning to her clinical duties. I told her what I saw and offered myself as a witness. She thanked and said no she was not going to pursue it. I told her my offer was open if she changed her mind.  We parted and never said anything about again.

[charlie b]

The truly sad part of this is , some folks need a thousand page legal document and formal classroom training to know how we should treat each other . The REALLY sad part , the lesson is apparently too difficult for a few to
learn  :(

  Dusty

The problem is there are those few who know how they should treat others...and despite this they choose to bully, degrade and humiliate others for their own enjoyment.  They are disgusting.

[Dean Rose]

Probably time to put this thread to bed.

Dean

[Two Checks]

Isn't Duke University where they had a minor scandal surrounding the lacrosse team?

[blackcat]

The problem is there are those few who know how they should treat others...and despite this they choose to bully, degrade and humiliate others for their own enjoyment.  They are disgusting.

About sums it up for me.

[boatdetective]

Isn't Duke University where they had a minor scandal surrounding the lacrosse team?

Yes-  and it wasn't a minor scandal. It was national news for weeks. It turned out to be a false accusation. However, they already had been tried in the court of public opinion. Not surprisingly, the networks failed to give equal time to reporting that the charges were trumped up by some skeevy stripper.

[redrider90]

Yes-  and it wasn't a minor scandal. It was national news for weeks. It turned out to be a false accusation. However, they already had been tried in the court of public opinion. Not surprisingly, the networks failed to give equal time to reporting that the charges were trumped up by some skeevy stripper.

Just a bit of history.
No doubt this thread has drifted a whole lot. Duke administrators  made numerous huge mistakes handling the Lacrosse case; it cost them millions of $ for firing the coach as well as suspending 4 of the Lacrosse team athletes.   The DA made huge mistakes and was disbarred as a result of his handling of the case.  It was obvious to me about the 2nd week after the event that a rape most likely had not occurred. All it took was reading news reports and listening to what Crystal Mangum was saying and doing.  She was a nut job. The DA was looking to cash in on the issue and get re-elected on it. The media circus was as bad as it could get.
The Lacrosse team made a mistake having a stripper party. They were party idiots but they were not rapists. They also had too many parties caused the neighbors grief and numerous complaints over years.    What the Lacrosse guys  didn't know was that one  stripper, Crystal Mangum was a very sick and troubled person.
She is now serving a 14 years sentence for stabbing her boyfriend to death. She has a long rap sheet including child endangerment.  She has had her children taken from her by the state. It was a crazy crazy time and people took hardened stance based on prejudices. I disagreed with my friends who lived in Durham. They were too quick to judge the Lacrosse team as guilty.

[jcctx]

this guy is a dick .
PC , who gives a flying #$%&, , have yet to figure out what that even means .

  Dusty

Of course he is! Just saying that women are faced with such crap all the time and many know how to deal with it!

[oldbike54]

Of course he is! Just saying that women are faced with such crap all the time and many know how to deal with it!

 Sorry , my comment wasn't directed at anyone . And yes , most women learn to deal with guys like this after a few bitter experiences .

  Dusty

[roadscum]

Seems to me the teller who got the hug should be the one to take action, and only her. Maybe it was her pleasure, don't know?  Perhaps she had been hit'n on him, don't know? If she didn't like the hug or found the comments offensive she should have just kicked him in the groin.
Third parties have no place in this, we don't know what axe they may have to grind with the manager.

Me thinks we've become way too politically correct and overly sensitive in the 21st century. Just say'n....

Paul

[oldbike54]

 Oh yeah , that is every 55 year old male's fantasy , having a 24 year old gay female hit on him  :D

  Dusty