Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)

[oldbike54]

 Craig , you are correct , but I think Rough is referring the basic masculine response in these situations , not suggesting that women are inferior . Hell , I want to punch the manager also , even though it probably solves
nothing  ;D

  Dusty

[Rough Edge racing]

Craig , you are correct , but I think Rough is referring the basic masculine response in these situations , not suggesting that women are inferior . Hell , I want to punch the manager also , even though it probably solves
nothing  ;D

  Dusty

   What Dusty says. Unreal.... I did not imply women are inferior, just using common terms like "how are you guys doing" even though there can be women present. Naive?  With respect to other opinions, I was an union construction skilled tradesman and the job and people are a bit rough.You know ,wear dirty work clothes and crap in out houses and  eat your lunch standing up without washing your hands.. There were women on the job so occasionally sexual harassment came up. Sometimes the situation came before the union business agents and at least one became a big deal with lawsuits. But generally the problems were solved on the jobsite.
  It's my opinion we have become too dependent on third parties to solve problems that can be resolved on the spot.
 In closing, I think the penalty for punching someone in the mouth in too severe..... ;D
  

[oldbike54]

 Rough , I don't make a habit of punching anyone , really pretty peaceful , but yeah , sometimes our blue collar ways are effective  ;D In this particular case , with this particular guy , probably a word , or maybe like my dog does , placing a body in front of the manager would have prevented her discomfort and made it clear that his behavior was unacceptable . What is the old axiom about an ounce of prevention ?

  Dusty

[Bill Havins]

Dean, please tell Cindy, "Thank you," from me.  Appreciate her comments.

Rick, the guy has "earned" what he "gets" (a harassment complaint).  Encourage your wife to gather offended parties together and file a report with HR, et. al.  Your wife may find there are men wanting to support the claim, too.  I would if I had been witness to the behavior.

Good luck!

[Rough Edge racing]

Rough , I don't make a habit of punching anyone , really pretty peaceful , but yeah , sometimes our blue collar ways are effective  ;D In this particular case , with this particular guy , probably a word , or maybe like my dog does , placing a body in front of the manager would have prevented her discomfort and made it clear that his behavior was unacceptable . What is the old axiom about an ounce of prevention ?

  Dusty

 Last time I was in a fight was a bar many years ago...I am peaceful but will stand up for myself if pushed. One of our grand daughters is in her third year at college on a lacrosse scholarship. She's attractive so guys hit on her, she is flattered of course. One guy went too far and she put him down with a shot to the groin...Word got around and the coach talked to her explaining the procedure to deal with sexual harassment. She said " I took care of the problem in 3 seconds...." 
  Obviously punching people can get you in a lot of trouble....Doing nothing when being bullied can lead to more bulling....You make the call...

[Steph]

If your wife or her 24 year old colleague will not put in a complaint. They should now start recording any occurrences when they are alone with that manager.

Most cell phones have voice memos apps that will record conversations from inside your pocket.
One good recording could be the end for that manager -no arguments.

Why play fair eh?

[LowRyter]

ooooh man.  before I retired I was almost on the other side of an EEO complaint.  

It was more a power play / mutiny thing among four female subordinates.  It sorta backfired when when one of the ladies said that she was drafted in their cause (and wasn't usually a part of their regular rudeness and bickering).  She later outed them to the Deputy.  Another one complained she didn't get an interview for a promotion, only to discover that she didn't apply for the right job and never gave me a hint she was interested (I would've helped her apply for it).

When I was called into the Deputy Director's office at the beginning, she (yes- she) told me that she would be investigating official. I have a strong inclination she hired me in the first place to deal with these personality issues.   I reminded her that I asked for her help when I started because there was such deep seated animosity and that she had replied at the time "those women are always a problem."

The Deputy gave me a very odd look when I reminded her of that during the meeting.  

Anyway, in a typical workplace environs, one my my male subordinates three months later told me I was "in the clear" but I never heard back from my boss, management, HR or from the Deputy about it ever again.  I remember one of the two remaining complainants say that this was all a "whitewash"; she was able to transfer and she admitted that she was burned out.

Later, I was invited to Christmas party after I retired and the last one said how she missed me as the boss which she repeated again at a later social (and I believed her).  She denies she was ever apart of the complaints (but I didn't believe that).  

Frankly, it was such a stressful job for this among many other legitimate reasons, I really didn't care if they canned me and transferred me to another job.  They played hell filling it when I left and weren't able to get an experienced supervisor to take my place.

so it goes.

[bigbikerrick]

Anyone can report improper actions to HR. Document, document, document. Copy emails, statements. Document who/what/where/when.

She has two witnesses. What's the hesitation? Waiting for someone else 'to do something'?

Thanks Goose, my wife has worked for this bank for 13 years. This manager has been there longer than her. Had my wife documented all the instances the way you recommend, this incident that happened a few days ago would be the "last nail in the coffin" for this guy. I mean the guy is so stupid, and arrogant that he is not careful at all about covering his ass at all. Ive told her to document everything in a "blog" that she can refer back to with dates, time , witnesses, etc. She has been documenting things now for a couple of months. this is a small town, the bank is the only "real" bank in town. There are a few credit unions, but no other full service national banks.
Needless to say if my wife, and her co worker decide to do something, they have to go all out, and "go for the throat" of this guy, with hope of getting him fired ,or transferred at the least.
Working there after filing an HR complaint against this jerk would be almost impossible. He would make their life miserable, and most likely try to find a reason to get rid of my wife, and the other tellers involved. She is going to have a serious talk with the 24 year old gal to see what she wants to do. She is not sure wether it would be a good time to go for the guy's throat, or wait,until the guy does something else, possibly more serious, that they can document, and gather more "ammunition" that the HR dept can use to get rid of him.
There was an incident that happened a few years ago, where the bank rented a van, to transport the employees to another town 130 miles away, for a corporate awards ceremony. The manager in question was the driver of the van. my wife, 4-5 other female employees, and one male teller were passengers. after the event , the manager decided to stop at an Indian casino on the way home, where a bit of gambling and drinking of alcohol took place. My wife did not drink any alcohol, but the Manager(driver) did have a few. The drive home after that was very scary, he was speeding , going 80 mph on 45-50 mph 2 lane roads, and driving recklessly. my wife an a few others kept telling him to slow down, he shrugged it off , and paid no attention. when he stopped at a town 50 miles from home to use the restroom, everyone in the van requested someone else drive the rest of the way home, and thank God another teller drove them the rest of the way home, in a much safer fashion. This would have been a good opportunity to get this idiot into" hot water", as the bank does not allow alcohol consumption at any company sponsored event.
all the employees kept their mouths shut about the incident. when my wife got home around 1 AM and told me what happened I was pissed, I told her someone should have  discreetly called 911 and had the van pulled over, while he was behind the wheel.
Im sure its too late now, but  i mentioned this incident so  you folks can see the stupid stuff this guy has done.
Thanks for all the great advice, and insight.
Rick.

[bigbikerrick]

Banks have cameras everywhere....was any of it caught on a security camera?

I am sure it was, but i dont believe they record audio. Not that the audio portion would make much difference, since there are 2 witnesses, that heard him state" Im going to make a woman out of you yet"
Rick.

[nikwax]

Where I work (Fortune 100 company) we take sexual harassment training every two years so that there is no question what is and isn't harassment. The bottom line is that it all gets directed to HR to act upon. Where I work, that manager would be out the door in about 10 minutes.


That said, the local papers are full of companies and govt agencies where you'd think we were back in the 1950's (and not in a good way). Freightliner just settled a massive complaint with the state over a decade of harassment of employees that their HR group ignored (who knew that swastikas would be so popular with a German owned company?). The state Bureau of Labor and Industry (BOLI) is the last resort for workers in situations like this.


I agree that the issue is that the tellers feel uncomfortable and that this is clearly a pattern.

[bigbikerrick]

First question:

Is your wife personally offended enough by the work environment & the manager to file a personal grievance against the guy?

Or

Is she concerned for the young lady and wants to help/support her in her claim?


If your wife feels it impacts her work to the point the needs to file a claim.. She is well within her rights to contact corprate HR.. Skip trying to have the 'come to Jesus' lecture with the manager... Direct confrontation is HIGHLY unlikely to change his behavior, more likely single her out to be picked on


If she wants to help/support the young teller, she needs to communicate with this girl & let her know she 'has her back' is willing to provide statements to HR etc...  But it is on the girl to initiate the claim.  Independently going around the girl directly to HR or the manager "on her behalf"...  That is asking for trouble.  

Oddly, I have even seen situations where the 'victim' becomes resentful at those trying to help...  If your wife raises a big stink and the girl in question doesn't even want to pursue it..  Your wife will end up being the 'rat' 'busybody' 'troublemaker' 'nosey'  of the office! Even if her intentions are good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

surely the best way is for the 24 y/0 teller to file the complaint, with my wife, and another teller as witnesses. My wife is talking to her today, to see if she has the "balls" to do it. my wife is 56 years  old, and does have the balls to do it herself, but wants to do the smartest thing, in this case, because she feels once the "bomb is dropped" things at work are gonna get pretty difficult for them. Another thing to consider is the young gal needs the job,and paycheck, she is a single parent. the younger tellers at work kind of look up to my wife as the senior teller, she sort of takes the newbies under her wing, to train them, try to help them avoid pitfalls, etc.
They look to her alot for advice, since she is very experienced, and has a sort of "motherly demeanor" with the younger gals.
Rick.

[oldbike54]

 Yes Rick , this a tough deal . I will offer to kick the guy in his huevos , being a nice guy and all . Seriously , seems like your wife is handling this right , make sure she knows that a bunch of greasy old motorsickle riders are on their side .

  Dusty

[bigbikerrick]

Dean/Cindy Rose.... Thank you very much for taking the time to lend your expertise, and sound advice in this difficult situation, My wife and I really, really appreciate it!
My wife will speak to the 24 y/o co worker today away from the workplace to see if she want to report this. My wife wants it to be her decision , and my wife and the other teller/witness will support her 100%.  This Manager has told my wife,in the past, and other employees at the bank that no one should ever contact HR. He has told them that all problems need to be addressed directly with him, and that the regional manager supports him, in this belief, and will back him up always. He has said this several times, to different employees, stating" You are either on MY TEAM, or you are off the team" He has made an analogy using football, saying he is the coach, and all the players have to have loyalty to him, and that he will not tolerate anyone who is not 100% loyal to him, and "On his team". This guy is a real piece of work! a real bully, and  control freak, that tries to use fear, to manipulate his subordinates.
As you can see, Cindy, this guy is not one, that anyone who submits a complaint against him, would be able to work for him again.
Someone mentioned that possibly Mrs. Manager should know about his behavior, he is single, never been married,and lives with his elderly mother.
Thanks again, Cindy.
Rick.



 

[bigbikerrick]

I just want to thank everyone who posted . Excellent information, and advice, that my wife is taking very seriously. I will be back on here , late this evening, reading all the posts to my wife,that she has yet to read, and answering the questions folks have posted.
thank you all!!
Rick.

[cookiemech]

Good luck to your wife, Rick. I can't add anything to what others have posted.

Jeez, having to work for a living and to also put up with this nonsense . . . I feel sorry for this young woman.

[bigbikerrick]

Yes Rick , this a tough deal . I will offer to kick the guy in his huevos , being a nice guy and all . Seriously , seems like your wife is handling this right , make sure she knows that a bunch of greasy old motorsickle riders are on their side .

  Dusty

Thank You, Dusty, appreciate your offer! ;D Some people definitely can benefit from a well placed kick to the "huevos", for sure.
And thanks for your support, and the support from the rest of the group. My wife really appreciates it, and also has alot of respect for you guys, and values your opinion.

Many times when we are trying to figgur someting out, she tells me" Why dont you ask your Guzzi friends? Those guys know everything!"  LOL.
Thanks Rick.

[nikwax]

I'm sorry that there aren't other places to work. No one should have to work in a place like that.

[biking sailor]

The professional training I have had, as most that work in corporate America have had, clearly stated that the offensive actions need to be treated as such. Meaning, as the trainer said, that you can't accept the behavior and then suddenly not like it and complain to HR expecting a head to roll.  He told us HR needs to be notified, but will probably only give a warning if there has been no other complaints.  Even a comment such as "excuse me, this is a business, not a bar" is sufficient notification that the behavior is not acceptable.

So, my take is the teller, or anyone else experiencing the environment not just the recipient, needs to let the perpetrator know it is unacceptable and unwelcome.  HR needs to be notified what happened, when, who was there, and what was said to let the perpetrator know to stop.  Then if there is continued harassment or retribution, the upper management will have no choice to act quickly and sternly and protect the person making the complaint.

[Dean Rose]

Rick,
It was my pleasure to offer my help with your wife’s and co-workers situation. Dean has kept me informed of the responses to your post and unfortunately all but a very few “get it”.

I can’t urge your wife and others enough, who have been subjected to this man’s behavior to take action. Your latest description describes a “workplace predator” and I could go into some of the psychological reasons for his behavior but what’s important here is workplace security. There are significant reasons why there are laws in place to prevent the environment this man is cultivating.
Tell your wife that both HR and ( if they get involved the EEOC) will only want to talk with people who they themselves have been subjected to statements or actions or who have over heard them, or who have witnessed his behavior. No hearsay will be accepted.  But from what you have written I suspect that there are quite a few who fall into one of the categories. Also I strongly recommend they report his admonitions about not contacting HR as this all supports his supremacy dominance.

And just as a side note, neither your wife nor any other employee under his supervision is on a football team. But if they were his behavior would still be illegal.  

I do not recommend that your wife or the 24 year old canvas coworkers for support.  They each independently should contact HR. Then what should happen is HR will conduct an investigation and speak with everyone who is under this man’s management; they will ask general questions such as “have you ever heard or seen anything in the workplace of a sexual or intimidating nature etc. HR should never direct the questions around a specific situation that would hint which employee(s) was involved.

Tell your wife and the other coworker to tell no one about their involvement. Period.  If HR finds evidence of the gross misconduct they will, under law be required to remedy the situation and in my opinion that would result in firing the manager and his boss if he was aware of the behavior.
As I stated before that once HR has been notified they must act immediately, which means within days to conduct their investigation and give their assessment to the complaining employees. If they a.) do nothing or b.) give excuses instead of action have your wife and coworker contact the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission: http://www.eeoc.gov/federal/fed_employees/filing_complaint.cfm

There are plenty of attorneys who will try and say the EEOC is not on your side but the truth is that any attorney who tries to take a case to court who hasn’t had cause found by the EEOC is almost sure to lose. See my previous post for what is considered appropriate actions.

Also I need to mention that once the EEOC is involved if any, and I mean any, adverse action is taken (this can be statements as well as actions) against any employee who has complained the EEOC will step in and protect that employee.  

One final word, I can’t express how important it is to have documentation of any of the events that have taken place. Date, time, who was there, what was said, action taken, by whom what they said or did, their reaction etc. All this can be from memory it’s not like people go around documenting what they do every day, no one is expected to have a journal.  It’s OK for the coworker and your wife to discuss this together but I suggest it be done off site.

And finally your wife and coworker will need support, but it sounds as if your wife already has it.

CindyR

[Vasco DG]

The man is clearly a phesterhead. Get your ducks in a row and get him dealt with. These sort of wankers can't be reformed, only dealt with, in a legal fashion. Although getting him in a squirrel grip and giving them a tug would be very satisfying!

Pete

[biking sailor]

Yes, this is already a hostile work environment and needs to be dealt with or everyone will just be miserable due to the creep for a boss.

[Guzzistajohn]

Nothing worse than working with a member of the he woman man haters club. We have gotten so thin skinned. They all need to shut up and do thier J.O.B.

[youcanrunnaked]

Nothing worse than working with a member of the he woman man haters club. We have gotten so thin skinned. They all need to shut up and do thier J.O.B.

So you're cool with a manager using his authority to coerce a female employee into unwanted physical contact, while making a snide remark about her sexuality?   Okay, good to know.   ;-T

/sarcasm

[bratman2]

"Nothing worse than working with a member of the he woman man haters club. We have gotten so thin skinned. They all need to shut up and do thier J.O.B."

Would that be your advice to your own 24 year old daughter if you had one?

[boatdetective]

I'll stand by John here in  voicing my own opinion that while the manager sounds like a jerk, made a snide comment, and forced himself in with an unwanted hug - the whole event seems to be blown waaaay out of proportion.  It's a hug, for god's sake. As for the comment- it was crass and inappropriate. Do you really think someone must lose their job over one comment (no fair claiming the reported prior comments- the man has to be brought on charges for what went on that day. Prior hearsay is inadmissable)?

Remember our system here before you decide to burn me at the stake also- everyone deserves a vigorous defense.  If the person has not been made aware that his comments can be construed as offensive, then he is due a warning. After that, I guess you could subject him to a series of sensitivity workshops. This alone should be enough to cause him to selfimmolate or run out into traffic.  

In the grand scheme of things, I refuse to see how this work environment of being a teller in a suburban bank is somehow unbearably abusive and demeaning. Get a grip, folks. What about the poor souls who have to work in soul crushing assembly line factories? How about back breaking field work? How about mining? Do you really think folks are concerned about potentially offensive overtones when they are a mile underground listening for the creaks and groans that might mean they are about to be buried alive?  

[Doppelgaenger]

It really is a sad thing that we have to actually deal with sexual harrasment in the first place... but it's a matter of common sense when it comes down to it. Don't touch anyone you work with in a work environment, and even out of work, you can't touch touch anyone who is under you. Period. It's not that hard.

If he can't figure that out then maybe he needs to get fired to learn his lesson.

[youcanrunnaked]

I'll stand by John here in  voicing my own opinion that while the manager sounds like a jerk, made a snide comment, and forced himself in with an unwanted hug - the whole event seems to be blown waaaay out of proportion.  It's a hug, for god's sake. As for the comment- it was crass and inappropriate. Do you really think someone must lose their job over one comment (no fair claiming the reported prior comments- the man has to be brought on charges for what went on that day. Prior hearsay is inadmissable)?

Remember our system here before you decide to burn me at the stake also- everyone deserves a vigorous defense.  If the person has not been made aware that his comments can be construed as offensive, then he is due a warning. After that, I guess you could subject him to a series of sensitivity workshops. This alone should be enough to cause him to selfimmolate or run out into traffic.  

In the grand scheme of things, I refuse to see how this work environment of being a teller in a suburban bank is somehow unbearably abusive and demeaning. Get a grip, folks. What about the poor souls who have to work in soul crushing assembly line factories? How about back breaking field work? How about mining? Do you really think folks are concerned about potentially offensive overtones when they are a mile underground listening for the creaks and groans that might mean they are about to be buried alive?  

You are ignoring the reports of prior past inappropriate behavior by this manager.  That's not hearsay if it is told by those who witnessed or experienced it -- its what is known as a pattern or practice, and it can get the company in deep do-do if they do nothing about it.  The employees do not even have to go to higher management with this first before launching lawsuits -- the fact that this was done by a person with management authority makes it the actions of the company for liability purposes, even if the company has policies against this behavior.

Your equation of sexual harassment with the normal dangers, risks and discomforts of various jobs is disconcerting.  Forcing women to run a gauntlet of harassment in order to get a paycheck is not a legitimate component of ANY job.  I can't imagine your attitude being so sanguine if it was your young daughter coming home every night and telling you about the latest indignities she had to suffer at work.  

Yes, it used to be different.  In "The Good 'Ol Days" (TM), you could call your female underlings "sugartits," and be met with nothing more than the laughter of other managers.  We used to have child labor, asbestos, and a seven-day workweek, too.

Was this part of a pattern of unwanted sexual attention?  An innocent mistake?  Was it unbearably abusive or blown waaaaaaay (or waaaay, or waay, or simply, way) out of proportion?  Should the manager lose his job over this?  You raise the question, and it's a good question -- one that none of us is qualified to answer.  More particularly, should this manager be fired, suspended, given a written warning, required to attend some sensitivity training, put on probation, given an informal warning, or some other (or no) corrective action?  That's a management decision for those in authority in this company to decide, after gathering the facts.  However, if no employee voices their concerns about this manager to HR and/or upper management, how do you propose that be accomplished?

[Pasta Hog]

Before I started doing employment law, I thought there was a ton of racial discrimination, but that the fuss about sexual discrimination was just a bunch of whining. I found out it was pretty much the other way around. I saw a lot of really grotesque sexual discrimination, but I never got one good racial case.

[pressureangle]

I have confronted a lot of bosses, and I have never regretted doing so. In this case, a simple aside might get the job done, and it doesn't preclude official action in HR. I'm certain the bank has cameras everywhere so it should be recorded.

Bottom line for me is, jobs are just not as important as my integrity. And I have the 8 page resume to prove it.  ::) I won't be belittled in any way by a boss. (though I take heat well from co- and underlings)

[boatdetective]

I have confronted a lot of bosses, and I have never regretted doing so. In this case, a simple aside might get the job done, and it doesn't preclude official action in HR. I'm certain the bank has cameras everywhere so it should be recorded.

Bottom line for me is, jobs are just not as important as my integrity. And I have the 8 page resume to prove it.  ::) I won't be belittled in any way by a boss. (though I take heat well from co- and underlings)

:+1