Author Topic: California II - Tubeless or Not? (Read 6960 times)

Kiwi_Roy · « **on:** May 14, 2015, 01:56:08 PM »

I am ready to put new shoes on my Cali II, Last time I had tires fitted the shop installed tubes, their reasoning "some of these old cast rims are porous"
Is that reasonable?

Are any California II owners running Tubeless?
I worry about what might happen if I get a flat out in the sticks, it's quite a job to repair a tube.

The manual doesn't say if the rims are tubeless but it does say
"Tires with an arrow on their sides have to be fitted in the following way"
"Rear wheel, with the arrow turned in the riding direction"
"Front wheel, with the arrow turned against the riding direction"

It also says the rims are WM3/2.15 profile

Thanks in advance

BillinPA · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2015, 02:10:23 PM »

I am running mine as tubeless, have for about 7 yrs. I was skeptical but the late Jack Arnold explained it to me and he had about 200,000 on tubeless Cal II's. I just had to file a flat spot for the stem to seal to.

mtiberio · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2015, 02:14:24 PM »

Those old tube style cast rims can be converted to tubeless. Many folks will warn you about the dangers of using a tube rim as tubeless due to the lack of "bead retention" profile. Fair enough.

While I have never used the straight spoke Cali II wheels in this way, I have used cranked spoke wheels and straight spoke small block wheels from the 70's in this way and I have never had a leak from porosity. I have also never had a tire jump off the rim due to a lack of a "bead retention" profile.

YMMV.

You can go the regular tubeless valve route (after filing), or you can tap the hole (1/8 NPT) and use a tank valve:

MotoGoosy · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2015, 02:52:34 PM »

Mine are tubeless.

Wildguzzi.com · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2015, 02:52:34 PM »

Groover · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2015, 03:20:08 PM »

I'm debating this for my G5's cast mag wheels as well. If you want to "really" dig in on this topic, there is a lot of information out there. The first thing I would check however is to see what rim standard your Cali 2 is using. If it says MT, then you're golden and it should be safe to do it. If it's the older standard profile (like mine), then that's where the real dilemma comes in on if you should or shouldn't go tubeless. Most say do it, I might.. still not sure, but I did order the valves required just today in case I do decide to go tubeless - I'll be mounting new tires within the next week or so, so I still have some time to think about this.

Your rims should have the print like shown here: These are mine - both front and back have the same markings:

There is some information on WG, but here is a link where it breaks this down even further.

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/section6.htm

Good luck.

Groover · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2015, 03:24:46 PM »

And here is a valve the should fit without modifications to the rims (per This Old Tractor) - this is what I ordered, but I have not confirmed the fit myself at this point:

Part # VS1218R

https://www.denniskirk.com/parts-unlimited/all-metal-valve-stem.p54155.prd/54155.sku

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/22509/i/drag-specialties-metal-valve-stem

(Hint: I got them for much cheaper on eBay)

I do like the tapped valve mtiberio posted... :BEER:

And another Edit.. I didn't realize the Cali 2 was tubeless already/

gwb_mg · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2015, 05:58:11 PM »

I have put well over 175,000 miles on my Cali II and Converts. My tire of choice is the Bridgestone Spitfire S11 tubeless.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2015, 06:14:42 PM »

Thanks for the quick response guys

Some great information there

Referring to this
http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/section6.htm
The manual says the profile is WM3/2.15 - 18 CP2

Roy

rodekyll · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2015, 08:07:49 PM »

There is some truth to the porus cast rim legend. SOME early Lesters were porus and it reflected on all cast rims from everyone. The fix was to coat the inside of the rim with a good quality paint like POR15. Some used paint-on insulating tape. But it was not all cast rims made by anyone, and it was not all Lesters. Later runs didn't have the problem, but it damaged Lester's reputation. In my opinion, if you're going to have porosity problems you'll see them within a few weeks of running tubeless -- slow leaking with no other explanation. They probably won't lose pressure catastophically because of porus rims. If you see the problem, it's easy enough to fix.

What I's suggesting is that you check and see what sort of rim you've got. If it has a TL profile you have no worries installing a TL tire. Your only worry goes back to your original question -- what about porosity? Modern sealers and coatings have come a long way from the mid 70s when Lesters had the problem. Properly prepped, powder coating, POR15, and all sorts of brush-on sealers will plug the pores. If it's a TT profile rim you're on your own going tubeless. I see a lot of folks doing it with no bad things happening, but it's not something I want to do.

$0.02

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2015, 08:39:36 PM »

WM profile it says in manual

Sent from my shoe phone!

rodekyll · « **Reply #10 on:** May 14, 2015, 08:53:14 PM »

WM is a pre-tubeless standard. I can't say for sure, but I don't think any WM rims are designed with a TL profile. Here's an article with diagrams that sort of explains the differences and why I presonally don't care to put tubleless tires without tubes on a WM rim. It's for a bmw audience, but the data is good.

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/section6.htm

mtiberio · « **Reply #11 on:** May 14, 2015, 09:15:01 PM »

As if for a moment, the tube will keep a deflated tire from jumping off a WM rim. Less chance of deflation running tubeless regardless of rim profile.

Bobbilljim · « **Reply #12 on:** May 14, 2015, 09:25:59 PM »

I've got Pirelli Sport Demons on mine TL. So far so good. But a little note, that backwards arrow deal was for older tires where the tire could be fitted on the front or back. I talked to Pirelli and the tech told me if they are designed to be a front tire, or a back tire, the arrow goes in direction of rotation. If it could be either or, then follow the book. As far as the valve stems, I ordered mine from MG Cycle. They are the kind that have a nut on the back and have an o-ring under a washer. I installed per the instructions but I also added some insurance in the form of some sealant AMS-8802. I don't want to alter the rim too much in case I want to go back to tubes. RK makes a really good argument for not. If you go with the spitfires, I would talk to someone at Bridgestone and see what they think.

fotoguzzi · « **Reply #13 on:** May 14, 2015, 09:39:57 PM »

Quote from: mtiberio on May 14, 2015, 09:15:01 PM

As if for a moment, the tube will keep a deflated tire from jumping off a WM rim. Less chance of deflation running tubeless regardless of rim profile.

what he said!

the tank valve conversion is simple and effective.

hooah54 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 14, 2015, 11:09:26 PM »

Roy, the previous owner put Dunlop 404F on the front and 491 Elite II on the rear...both are tubeless. I don't know how old these tire are but they seem to be in good shape.

The problem I had with "wobble" seems to be a problem with sticky pistons in the front rotor. Hope remounting the wheel, changing pads, bleeding and shimming the calipers fixes the issue. Test drive tomorrow!

Groover · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2015, 07:30:39 AM »

Are the rims we have Lesters? Lester is the brand I take it?

fotoguzzi · « **Reply #16 on:** May 15, 2015, 07:56:52 AM »

No Lester wheels are aftermarket.. this bike has them,

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/mcy/4962569782.html

mtiberio · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2015, 08:37:44 AM »

I'm running one on the front of my CalVin, simply because I could convert it to tubeless. So far no air loss...

IMG_1038 by mtiberio, on Flickr

rodekyll · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2015, 12:53:47 PM »

I run Lesters fore and aft on the rodekyll and have had no problems.

I'm running them on the trike too -- guzzi on the front and bmw on the rear, but I'm using tt tires and tubes on the rear because I couldn't find the profile I wanted in TL.

Kiwi_Roy · « **Reply #19 on:** May 25, 2015, 12:54:47 PM »

Update:
I am now running tubeless, a Heidenau on the rear with Metzler on the front. While the guy at the shop had the rims on the tire machine he drilled the hole a little larger and I filed the rim flat on the inside to accept the valve, I was amazed how well the tire sealed against the rim nothing more than the usual soapy water stuff they use, I thought I would at least have to polish up the bead area.

I'm much relieved to be running tubeless ;-T

Next task convert the Eldorado spoke wheels to tubeless also.

charlie b · « **Reply #20 on:** May 25, 2015, 03:19:43 PM »

Congratulation on the conversion.

My T5 had tubes and I changed to tubless a couple years ago. No issues since then.

The recess inside the rim was a little smaller than the new stem so I reduced the size of the flange on the stem to fit.

My rims (1983 vintage) look like the TL-H2 profile and the cast numbers on them include an H2 after the size. So, I guess they were designed for tubless to start with.

PS I use a little RTV on the valve stems when installing them and I don't use a rubber washer on the outside anymore (mine cracked within 1000mi).

wymple · « **Reply #21 on:** May 25, 2015, 07:06:41 PM »

They sell a valve for this at almost any auto parts store. I put one on my GS850 Suzuki and also my son's V65C Guzzi. The rim hole had to be enlarged, but it was no big deal, just a drill bit.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/XTS0/15416/N1769.oap?ck=Search_valve+stem_N1769_-1_381&keyword=valve+stem&pt=N1769&ppt=C2459

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Author Topic: California II - Tubeless or Not? (Read 6960 times)

MotoGoosy

Wildguzzi.com