Norge CARC rear seal model year 2013 - Updated with Pics - Just an update

[canuguzzi]

Not to scare or alarm anyone but info that might help others beware.

This is related to my Norge with only a few thousand miles from new, model year 2013. Initial service has been done.

About 300 miles ago I notice one small drop of what looked like oil on the rear wheel. I got under the rear end of the Norge and looked around but couldn't see anything out of the ordinary. I chalked it up to a stray drop from the last time I drained the clear plastic overflow tube (I do this after each ride) thinking maybe a drop was left on the plug when I inserted it before the ride. I park the bike inside, do not ride it in the rain and always look all around and under before taking it out.

Yesterday I needed to take a 200 mile drive so I rode instead. Checking underneath and all around there was nothing out of the ordinary. I always run a paper towel underneath because it will catch something I might not see so easily. Nothing.

I rode the first leg of about 100 miles, some freeway and some rural roads. On the return I filled the fuel tank and again did my check. When riding I always check with the paper towel and look at each fuel stop and if stopped otherwise I do a look see. Nothing.

Nearing home I noticed the Norge getting skittish. There was some wind and it wasn't enough for me to think it was more than that. The roads were dry.. I slowed my progress to between 45-50 on the freeway since I was real close to home. two turns before home the rear end slid just a bit going around a right hand turner and I brought the bike out of the lean fast since there was no oncoming traffic. I made the last left turn to home okay and since I was only a few hundred yards from the driveway just rode it into the garage. I have a gravel driveway so its more rear brake than front. I noticed reduced braking power from the rear brake.

When I looked underneath the rear end, the wheel, tire and brake disk were splattered with oil. It appeared to be coming from the rearmost seal on the bottom of the CARC. I took pictures and noticed during cleanup that there were only a drop or two forward of that seal but forward of that, absolutely clean.

I've sent the information and pictures to MG and advised them that this should be considered a very serious problem, not because a seal leaked (it can happen) but that it appears this isn't unique to my MG and that some type of routing channel could be used to insure a leaking seal wouldn't spray the rear tire and brake disk. They might not consider that but I will and will add something to shield the tire if nothing else. There has to be a way.

I've own plenty of chain drive bikes so I'm used to the once in a while splatter on the tire. This was nothing like that.

Check your seal every time before you ride although I do that 100% and still this could have easily resulted in a fall. I'm glad the roads weren't even damp as there is little doubt in my mind that a fall is what would have resulted with oil on the tire on a wet road.

I do hope that anyone who experiences this also notifies MG about it. If we never take the time to inform them no one will ever look at it as more than an isolated incident.

I'm away for a while now and swamped but if I can manage, I'll post some pics from the phone.

[nikwax]

the front seal (drive shaft) failed on mine right after the 600 mile service. The dealer replaced the seal, then the main seal failed. They resealed it once again with the understanding that if that didn't fix it that the CARC would be replaced. 26,000 miles later and it's fine.


Dealer said that was a first for them. I guess crap happens (CARC happens?)



OTOH, I had a BMW, the rear drive seals failed anywhere from every 5,000 miles to every 25,000 miles, depending on who had done the last rebuild. And sometimes the main bearing failed as well. The first rebuild I had done was replacing all of the seals and bearings and re-shimming, that was about $900. The main seal was considered a normal wear item.

[Wayne Orwig]

Inspect it for bearing failure.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Inspect it for bearing failure.

Yep..

[lucky phil]

Not to scare or alarm anyone but info that might help others beware.

This is related to my Norge with only a few thousand miles from new, model year 2013. Initial service has been done.

About 300 miles ago I notice one small drop of what looked like oil on the rear wheel. I got under the rear end of the Norge and looked around but couldn't see anything out of the ordinary. I chalked it up to a stray drop from the last time I drained the clear plastic overflow tube (I do this after each ride) thinking maybe a drop was left on the plug when I inserted it before the ride. I park the bike inside, do not ride it in the rain and always look all around and under before taking it out.

Yesterday I needed to take a 200 mile drive so I rode instead. Checking underneath and all around there was nothing out of the ordinary. I always run a paper towel underneath because it will catch something I might not see so easily. Nothing.

I rode the first leg of about 100 miles, some freeway and some rural roads. On the return I filled the fuel tank and again did my check. When riding I always check with the paper towel and look at each fuel stop and if stopped otherwise I do a look see. Nothing.

Isnt the universe an amazing thing, he who is obviously paranoid about CARC leaks ( paper towel check every fuel stop!!) is duly presented with one. Those who aren't, well aren't,it seems.
Ciao  

[Wayne Orwig]

Isnt the universe an amazing thing, he who is obviously paranoid about CARC leaks ( paper towel check every fuel stop!!) is duly presented with one. Those who aren't, well aren't,it seems.

I rely on a layer of spooge to absorb any leaks.


 :BEER:

[Vasco DG]

Any seal can leak. Usually with something new there is going to be a reason.

As for channeling the oil away? Bit difficult given the wheel bolts directly to the crownwheel and the seal sits adjacent to the wheel.

As Wayne and Chuck have said it would be worth checking the bearing. You can do a preliminary check by puting the bike on its centrestand and grabbing the wheel at 12 and 6 O'Clock and rocking it. There should be no or at worst barely perceptible play. If there is play then when the seal is popped out cro replacement it would be worth having a very careful look at the bearing behind the seal. If the balls look *Speckly* or the cage looks in any way unusual it is worth pulling the unit apart for a more thorough inspection. The bearing should have 19 balls. The early ones that failed had 17. They were shit-canned back in 2007 but you never know if some idiot at the factory may of found some old stock and used one by mistake.

This is what you want.





BMW seal works just fine and is cheaper too.



Pete

[canuguzzi]

Isnt the universe an amazing thing, he who is obviously paranoid about CARC leaks ( paper towel check every fuel stop!!) is duly presented with one. Those who aren't, well aren't,it seems.
Ciao  

Having shafties since 1979 have yet to have one leak so no doubt me checking  must have been the cause. What really has me going is that the tires aren't flat because I check them as well. I'll give it a shot though, check things less and ignore them more, maybe that will fix the fuel gauge. ;)

[canuguzzi]

Thanks Pete and others, I'll check the bearings as suggested. Maybe when put together the less is more philosophy was at work.

[Bill Havins]

....What really has me going is that the tires aren't flat because I check them as well....

 ;-T

[blackcat]

About 40,000? miles ago the seal leaked on my 07 Norge. Changed it and that was about it.

[JeffOlson]

I hope my incoming new Norge will not leak, but if it does, I will have it repaired--and then I will watch it carefully and hope that nothing else happens any time soon.

Year ago, I had a 1974 Jaguar XJ12L (in primrose yellow with black leather). It was a beautiful and fun car, but it was in the shop every three weeks on average over the two years that I owned and drove it. It leaked so much fluid that I placed a huge metal tray beneath it, filled with kitty litter, and topped up the fluids every day. (Apart from the leaks, I never had ANY trouble with the 12-cylinder motor.) It was not terribly bothersome (the things we do for love!), but I had to be careful where I parked as the rear main seal leaked a good bit if I parked uphill, and I had to be regularly attentive.

I hope my new Norge will not be so demanding. I also hope it gets better mileage than the 7.8 miles per gallon that I averaged during my use of the Jaguar...

[nikwax]

Jeff, I had oil leaks and loose fittings for about the first 10k miles. I've learned to relax around oil leaks since owning the Guzzi :-)

[JeffOlson]

^ Ah! Well, they can't leak as much oil as my old Jaguar leaked. The engine required 12 quarts, and I usually had to add half a quart a day (and coolant, and top up the four Zenith-Stromberg carburetors).

[canuguzzi]

Service shop has a call into MG regarding the leak.

I might have not been clear as to where the leak is but here are some pics. It isn't the hub or large bearing seal. I did a check for bearing looseness and everything is tight, not shimmy or movement using the technique mentioned by Pete.







I am wondering if it isn't that seal but the hole that holds the cable stay. Maybe it was drilled close to through and then finally opened up. I wiped the CARC clean and went for a short stint, simply can't tell exactly if it is the seal or cable stay hole. So now I'll wrap a rag around both so that the wind doesn't splash the oil around and maybe that way I can be sure.

Last thing I need is the shop replacing the seal and finding out it was the cable stay hole that was drilled through.

[beetle]

The bevel box on my Griso sprung a leak from the front boot and was leaking out through the cable clip holes.





The drillings for the clips go all the way through, so any oil in the void in the swingarm usually drips out through them.


I pulled the bevel box off and sure enough, the seal was wet with oil.





There was a pool of it just inside the swingarm. The length of the swingarm was dry, so no oil from the gearbox end.

[canuguzzi]

I take it a new seal fixed the leak then? Has it held up?

[Vasco DG]

Dunno yet, I haven't got round to replacing it. I lent Mark one of my spares and his is on the bench, oozing, and awaiting my loathsome attentions! ;D

Yes, that is the classic symptom of leakage into the swingarm from the bevelbox. Being a 2013 it will of had its Bevelbox 'Glued' to the Swingarm with silastic, (You can see this crap on the mating surface of Mark's box.) which was used post about 2009 to seal the rather inadequately sealing front boot. If the seal has one it requires stripping of the box including separating of the two halves of the casing. It's not a big job but it is tiresome and requires a press and a special socket to undo the seal holder. I think I did a tutorial on it a while back?

If it's still under warranty? No issue. If you are going to do it yourself I could probably do another tutorial this week and fix Mark's at the same time. One positive to come out of it is while you're replacing the seal you can put some Loctite on the pinion peg nut to help dissuade it from coming loose!

Pete

[canuguzzi]

Bike is still under warranty for quite a while so I'll let the dealer fix it. I'll mentioned the loctite, the shop isn't so uptight about hints like that. I grease the skids there so it shouldn't be a problem.

I appreciate the new info though because it seemed like it was the bevel box the swing arm seal. I'd had never thought they would through drill a hole for a cable stay, who knows, maybe it was a way to see if things were leaking inside.

[Vasco DG]

Bike is still under warranty for quite a while so I'll let the dealer fix it. I'll mentioned the loctite, the shop isn't so uptight about hints like that. I grease the skids there so it shouldn't be a problem.

I appreciate the new info though because it seemed like it was the bevel box the swing arm seal. I'd had never thought they would through drill a hole for a cable stay, who knows, maybe it was a way to see if things were leaking inside.

Ding, Ding! We have a winner! It's a nice EWS. If you didn't see the drip you could loose sufficient oil from the bevelbox to end up damaging the gears and bearings.

Pete

[canuguzzi]

Ding, Ding! We have a winner! It's a nice EWS. If you didn't see the drip you could loose sufficient oil from the bevelbox to end up damaging the gears and bearings.

Pete

 :bow

Last ? on this I hope. I'll need to ride this to the dealer who is about 45 miles away. Since the leak started, I've been checking the oil to insure it didn't drop to a low level. Is that sufficient until it is repaired? It won't be ridden except to take it in for the fixing.

If not it means a haul to the dealer.

[beetle]

When I first discovered my drip, I wiped it off and no more appeared, so I didn't think anything of it. I rode it a couple of hundred kilometres and didn't see any drops for a couple of days afterwards. The oil level was still at the bottom of the threads in the fill hole, despite that little pool inside the swingarm. 

I think you will be OK, unless the dealer is many hundreds of miles away.

[canuguzzi]

Thanks so much, all this has been a big help. It is good to be able to explain things a bit more to the dealer because while a picture is worth a thousand words, sometimes a few words are still required.

[Vasco DG]

Just open the fill/level plug and have a look. As long as you can see oil it's good to go. If you can't see it? Top it up until it's at the bottom of the fillet threads.

If your shop is interested I can advise them on how to go about loctiting the pinion nut. Guzzi tells us that the CARC bevel system and reactive bridge is non serviceable which is of course a lot of kack but the preload is maintained by a collapsible spacer that acts like a spring between the two bearing outer races of the pinion. The nut itself and its lockwasher are the same ones that were used to hold the crank sprocket on to the crank on a T3/LeMans and an 'Industry Standard' for such a system would be around 40-60 inch pounds. When I replaced my CARC internals after mine dumped it's preload I tapped down the tab washer tang and undid the nut. Discarded the tab washer replacing it with a new one and then used first some Loctite 243 on the threads before torquing it to 50 inch pounds. I then locked it with the tab washer and dripped some wick-in around the top of the threads for good measure.

Why the silly sods at the factory don't do this when they assemble the poxy things is beyond me? ??? ::)

Pete

[father guzzi obrian]

Pete, I believe you've told me several times that they keep the Loctite in the same place as their grease.... ;D

[Vasco DG]

Nah, they used up their entire century's stock on the impossible to remove button head bolts that hold the brake rotors onto early Cali 1100's! ;D

Pete

[Vasco DG]

This bit is the seal holder, it's locked in place with a big 'G' clip.



The seal lives inside it. You remove the front boot first and then use the special tool and a big breaker bar to undo the seal holder.



]

Once it's out of the way you can see the preload nut and it's Lockwasher.

]

I use the same tool on it as I do on th crank peg nut on the oldies.

Pete

[canuguzzi]

Just open the fill/level plug and have a look. As long as you can see oil it's good to go. If you can't see it? Top it up until it's at the bottom of the fillet threads.

If your shop is interested I can advise them on how to go about loctiting the pinion nut. Guzzi tells us that the CARC bevel system and reactive bridge is non serviceable which is of course a lot of kack but the preload is maintained by a collapsible spacer that acts like a spring between the two bearing outer races of the pinion. The nut itself and its lockwasher are the same ones that were used to hold the crank sprocket on to the crank on a T3/LeMans and an 'Industry Standard' for such a system would be around 40-60 inch pounds. When I replaced my CARC internals after mine dumped it's preload I tapped down the tab washer tang and undid the nut. Discarded the tab washer replacing it with a new one and then used first some Loctite 243 on the threads before torquing it to 50 inch pounds. I then locked it with the tab washer and dripped some wick-in around the top of the threads for good measure.

Why the silly sods at the factory don't do this when they assemble the poxy things is beyond me? ??? ::)

Pete

I will bring that up to them. I'm going to the shop early next week to go over what I've learned here since I'm communicating with them via e-mail and feel a face to face with the bike sitting there will make things clear. While they have always done good work I'd like that to continue.

I PM'd you.

[canuguzzi]

Got the Norge in today and it was fixed pronto. It was the outer ring seal and it was replaced (warranty). After about 100 miles, no drips or even a hint of a leak.

Since they were back there, had the rear brake flushed. Yeah, could do it myself but a max nix service to go into the coffers.

All systems are go. From shop to home it was stop and go and slow and go traffic. I avoid filtering or lane splitting if at all possible, it wasn't really possible today. Completely worn out, glad I'm not commuting on a bike anymore.