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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dirk_S on May 08, 2023, 01:49:38 PM
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I have 2 sets of spoked wheels that I converted to run tubeless. On some of the wheels I used the normal 3M sealing tape over top the marine sealant that is often recommended for the job, but on others I decided to try out Gorilla Waterproof Patch & Seal Tape. I developed a leaking spoke hole in one of my rear wheels that was causing me to lose at least 4 psi/day, so I swapped wheels and yanked the tire off to begin the spoked hole repair.
This is what the tape job looked like upon installation:
(https://i.ibb.co/TT8R13x/IMG-0192.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TT8R13x)
…and this is what I discovered after no more than 4000 miles of use:
(https://i.ibb.co/X5B3Drz/IMG-1811.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X5B3Drz)
How lovely.
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Gorilla tape fail!
Sorry Dirk
inditx
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Yuck!
What did the inside of the tire look like?
That tape just melted away, huh?
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I have 2 sets of spoked wheels that I converted to run tubeless. On some of the wheels I used the normal 3M sealing tape over top the marine sealant that is often recommended for the job, but on others I decided to try out Gorilla Waterproof Patch & Seal Tape. I developed a leaking spoke hole in one of my rear wheels that was causing me to lose at least 4 psi/day, so I swapped wheels and yanked the tire off to begin the spoked hole repair.
This is what the tape job looked like upon installation:
(https://i.ibb.co/TT8R13x/IMG-0192.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TT8R13x)
…and this is what I discovered after no more than 4000 miles of use:
(https://i.ibb.co/X5B3Drz/IMG-1811.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X5B3Drz)
How lovely.
Yikes, what a mess! Live and learn....
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What did the inside of the tire look like?
That tape just melted away, huh?
Interestingly, the inside of the tire hardly shows any evidence of debris. Maybe the material simply melts and deforms instead of flinging off.
I’ll be sticking with the 3M 4411n or 4412n from now on…pun intended.
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I installed the Outex kit on my Africa Twin several years ago. Very good product and made for just this type of application. https://woodyswheelworks.com/products/outex-tubeless-kit
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Fit for purpose, as they say.
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I used Gorilla tape to repair a couple of tears on my soft shell vintage Flobot kayak after sitting a few months in my shed, garage the glued soften and melted and dripped out, not a fan.
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that really sucks, but thanks for the heads up, you might well have saved someone else a lot of heart ache!
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Makes a tube not seem that bad to me🤔
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There isn't anything wrong with tube tires compared to tubeless. Until you ride over something that punctures the tire. With a tubeless tire most times it can be plugged and you can be back on the road in 20 minutes. With tube tires not so easy as the the tube will need to be patched which usually requires the wheel to be removed, and the bead to be broken in order to get out the tube. I would guess it would take me a couple of hours of work before I would be back on the road if I got a puncture in a tubed tire. In the 40+ years I've been riding motorcycles I've had many punctured tires, all but once they were in the rear tires. Luckily they have always been on bikes which ran tubeless tires. And nowadays all my bikes have a TPMS so I know when I've got a tire problem.
Over the years I've used just about every tubeless plug kit available. This is by far the best tool I've used, https://www.rockycreekdesigns.com/products/motopressor-puncture-repair-tool . Very compact and easy to use without the messy glue. This tool along with a small compressor is all you need to plug a tubeless tire and get back on the road.
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That 3M sealing tape isn't cheap so it's understandable trying something else. Thanks for the feedback!
I haven't done my wheels yet (want to) and wonder if it's really necessary to use sealing tape. In your case, it evidently was needed, however my question is why did the sealer leak? What could have been done differently to prevent that?
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That 3M sealing tape isn't cheap so it's understandable trying something else. Thanks for the feedback!
I haven't done my wheels yet (want to) and wonder if it's really necessary to use sealing tape. In your case, it evidently was needed, however my question is why did the sealer leak? What could have been done differently to prevent that?
I think there’s always potential for failure. The marine sealant isn’t thin enough to seep down into the tight space between the nipples and the spoke holes, and I imagine that can lead to water or brine to sneak in. Some folks use a thinner sealant, followed by the thicker stuff. The fast cure marine sealant can also retain air bubbles and pockets—both large and small—so you really have to be mindful when you’re looking over the job. I’ve had to slice away cured bits and reapply before.
Yeah, that 3M 4412n tape isn’t cheap for sure. I could’ve sworn that I bought a roll of 2” x 5 yd for only $27 in 2020 (at least that’s what my Amazon order confirmation Emil says), but it’s 2.5X that now. Maybe I’ll stick with the marine sealant only and applying it in one flat strip across the well of the rim. Curious what the weight difference would be.
I’m still
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Makes a tube not seem that bad to me🤔
I've had six or seven punctures over the years. All were rear. All were fixed in minutes with a plug kit and a mini compressor.
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I've had six or seven punctures over the years. All were rear. All were fixed in minutes with a plug kit and a mini compressor.
I think Dan’s comment is in jest—that Gorilla tape looks SO HORRENDOUS TO CLEAN UP that it makes the alternative look better.
Having said that, it took just over an hour with some Xylene and rags to get it all off. I used a plastic razor to remove all the marine sealant from the spoke holes; starting all over again. Gonna try some Tiger Seal this time, spreading it across the entire well. It’s all about preparation!
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I think Dan’s comment is in jest—that Gorilla tape looks SO HORRENDOUS TO CLEAN UP that it makes the alternative look better.
Having said that, it took just over an hour with some Xylene and rags to get it all off. I used a plastic razor to remove all the marine sealant from the spoke holes; starting all over gin. Gonna try some Tiger Seal this time, spreading it across the entire well. It’s all about preparation!
You are right Dirk It was a “ just funning” response. However the truth is that when attempting to change the designed use of a tube spoked wheel one can run into issues of failure, as you did and you are not alone.
My 02 Stone has tubes in the wire wheels and I’d prefer tubeless any time. However the time and effort and odds for failure override my desire to attempt to convert them to tubeless.
That being said anyone who wishes to convert tube wheels, by all means have at it and good luck👍
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Tire pressure is to be considered when converting spoked rims to tubeless use. Not only does the sealant have to be airtight but it also has to be supported and mechanically strong under pressure.
When you inflate a tube it stretches to confirm to every contour in a rim. When you inflate a sealed rim the sealant will flex until it finds mechanical support to balance out the applied pressure. If the sealant lacks support it stretches until it finds support. This could weaken the sealing function.
The purpose of the tape is to spread the air pressure load over a greater area. Sort of like a big foot on a side stand.
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DON'T WE ALL VALUE OUR LIVES?
YOU'RE RIDING A MOTORCYCLE. ARE THERE NOT ENOUGH RISKS ALREADY?
WTH? B~
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DON'T WE ALL VALUE OUR LIVES?
YOU'RE RIDING A MOTORCYCLE. ARE THERE NOT ENOUGH RISKS ALREADY?
WTH? B~
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or serious. If the latter, all I see is a thread derailment, but I’ll entertain it, because I’m easily goaded (my first ankle sprain happened as kid when my older sister called me a wuss for being too afraid to jump off the roof of a cousin’s garage down onto a sloped embankment…well I showed her).
WARNING: POTENTIAL THREAD DERAILMENT ALERT!
I figure even if the sealant of choice fails catastrophically, it’ll be no worse than a tube blowout, no? And many a person ride with a tube, no?
~END POTENTIAL THREAD DERAILMENT (we really need a forum tag for this)
Anyway, back to that time my sister held tyrannical control over my perceived autonomy…
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DON'T WE ALL VALUE OUR LIVES?
YOU'RE RIDING A MOTORCYCLE. ARE THERE NOT ENOUGH RISKS ALREADY?
WTH? B~
Yeah, they all say that and I thought about it some.
I picked up a nail on my T3 and the tube immediately deflated and the tire came off the rim shortly thereafter. Nail hole is a stress riser in the tube and it tears at the hole, then shrinks to its uninflated size
I've picked up nails on my tubeless bikes and the only reason I knew about them was the glint of metal during a wheel inspection.
I don't think a fully inflated tire will readily come off a WM rim so during a puncture scenario I suspect a suddenly deflating tube will present more of an immediate hazard than running tubeless on a sealed WM rim.
I might be wrong???
Also the rim Dirk is showing has the tire retention Bead. It is not WM
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Back in the days of the Airheads BMW used natural rubber inner tubes. They were supposed to be more resistant to tearing thus hopefully preventing sudden deflation. I don't know if they are even available now. When I put new tires on my Triumph I was surprised at how heavy duty the tubes were. I put them back in rather than replacing them. They were less than a year old any way. I probably have 300,000 miles on two wheels. I have only had 2 flats in my 60 years of riding motorcycles.
kk
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The Outex kits work. I have them on my T7
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I have done several bikes over the last dozen years, including two Stone Touring "Hydros". None has ever leaked (looking frantically for a piece of wood to knock on).
Shoe-Goo (A $5 tube easily does two wheels) over every spoke nipple and around the base of the Camel brand tubeless valve stem. THEN, an overlapping double layer of 3-M sealing tape (1.5" wide) for redundancy. Re-fit the tire and pump up to at least 60 psi and allow to sit for a couple of days to fully press the sealing tape around the spoke nipples and onto the valley of the wheel rim. Then, I use a tapered reamer to poke through the sealing tape and into the hole in the valve stem. Omit this step at your peril.
Afterwards, I place the wheel with tire in a bathtub with a foot of water in it (when my wife is away) and look for the tiny bubbles coming from a submerged area of the wheel. None seen. After re-fitting, and some miles, there may be a monthly air pressure loss of a pound or two a month, but no other surprises. I like redundancy. Two months ago I did both wheels on my '21 Royal Enfield "Interceptor". Crossed fingers, but it's holding air just fine.
Ralph
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<SNIP> The fast cure marine sealant can also retain air bubbles and pockets—both large and small—so you really have to be mindful when you’re looking over the job. <SNIP>
(https://i.ibb.co/ZLYhXZS/20230616-194505.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZLYhXZS)
Rim after applying 3M5200FC over spoke nipples and smoothing with acetone. Product felt spongy but had a hard shell.
(https://i.ibb.co/vZtGSGX/20230616-211311.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vZtGSGX)
Squirted a couple of 1/4" high beads on a plate. Smoothed one with acetone and let both cure. Peeled off and cut in cross section. I'm shocked at the severe internal "foaming" of the 3M5200FC (fast cure). Guess the product should only be used in thin layers so it can outgass as it cures. I should probably strip the wheel and try again.
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Great pics, Ron—exactly what I found in my experience with the fast core sealant. I ended up trying out Tiger Seal, but I’ve et to throw a tire on that particular wheel. If I ever do go back to the marine sealant, I might avoid the fast cure version.
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I'm assuming that 3M 5200FC is meant to be an adhesive. That sort of application implies thinner layers. Thinner layers would outgass before forming an airtight shell.
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While I was reading this thread, I thought of shifting into fourth at 105 mph….
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Pic of 4412 for ref
This second tyre change on son’s Ducati
Have changed quite a few now, several years after sealing, no dramas at all, easy peasy conversion, 100% successful, 67 loop to this one
(https://i.ibb.co/pJ02J0Y/IMG-1431.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pJ02J0Y)
Re tiger seal, I tried that before 3M tape, gave up after a few tiny leaks
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While reading a marine magazine a while back they were singing the praises of the 5200 fast cure. BUT, they also said the mfg says in fine print to allow a week for full cure. I had horrible luck with it because of the bubbles and a bigger "pimple" of it will pop right off if the tire hits drop center while installing.
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(https://i.ibb.co/VpbxVbZ/Tubeless-Rim.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VpbxVbZ)
I used the 3m 5200. The process took several days and steps. I washed the wheel with dish soap and rinsed a couple of times. Used air to blow out water in spoke nipples which assembly lube blew out also. Applied the sealant in 3 steps. Each spoke nipple and smoothed, a thin layer and smoothed and a top layer and smoothed. Waiting 48 hours between each application. I have had zero problems. The tires hold air very good.
Additional steps I took was preparing the tire seating area. I cleaned and removed the mold ridges so the tire would not leak at the ridges. Smoothed the sealing surface of the rim. I started with new Exel aluminum rims. On many steel rims there are grooves cut in the sealing surface that will allow air to leak between the tire and rim.
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I sealed the wheels of my 73 eldo with 3M 5200 over 10 years ago. Never had a leak.
Rick.
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I'm in the process of ripping the 3M 5200FC off the aluminum rim on my 850T3.
(https://i.ibb.co/Xy2drn0/20230616-211311.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xy2drn0)
I ripped 40 humps off and each and internally every one looked like the above image. That fast cure product looks like it's almost boiling as it cures.
I did mount a tire on the rim and it maintained pressure overnight but the extreme bubble pattern in the test specimens did not inspire any confidence. So off it goes. Trust me, removal is no fun.
It's riding season. Time to put the bike back together with a tube for the season and ride it. I'll try this project again next January when I have all the time in the world to fuss over it. One group member mentioned building up the product in 3 layers. I think that might be the key for the release of gas during curing. I'm also going to switch from fast cure to standard cure. I have a feeling it probably outgasses less. I'll do a test first!
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That is quite disheartening too be removing the sealant . I have just finished sealing my V7 Stornello spoked wheels using Sikaflex 291 marine sealant .Seems to do the job no pressure drop over a week so that's encouraging . It is slow cure and probably a bit more viscous than 3M sealant.You could do the whole wheel in one go I think .
Did mine over two days half and half . Also installed 90 degree valve stem 8 mm so no drilling rim .
It's mid winter here so might be a few months before the wheels get a decent test hoping fingers crossed no leaks .
Duncan