How much power does it take to run a Convert fluid pump?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Anyone want to take a guess?

Here's the situation: I'm building an "Ambovert" - '72 Ambassador with Cal II engine and Convert transmission, driveshaft, swingarm, rear drive, etc. I chose to not use the original timing cover with built in pump as I don't want the alternator lump on the crank nose. Instead I'm using an Eldo timing cover, crank adapter, Scrambler Cycle alternator up in the "V" and will be using an electric pump of some sort to circulate the atf.

I could buy a ready-made pump for $400, the adjustable pressure regulator adds another $125.
 


But, I'm "cheap" and building this bike on a tight budget. So my plan is to cut the original pump out of the timing cover, find an electric motor capable of running it and machine shaft-to-pump and pump-to-motor adapters. This achieves a few goals; low cost, correct fittings for the original type hoses and having a pump that I know will maintain the correct pressure at all times.

The problem, as the subject line states, is knowing how powerful of an electric motor I need. It will, of course, need to be 12 volt and should spin the pump at around 3000 rpm. I've been surfing the web in search of a suitable motor and have come up with a few likely candidates ranging in power from 90 watts (0.120 hp) to 200 watts (0.268 hp). Problem is I have no idea how many watts/hp will be required to run the atf pump at 30 continuous psi.

Mocking up the front end I built from drum-brake Loop and Convert parts, the Cal engine with Convert transmission sitting in place. I plan to mount the atf pump where the original voltage regulator was behind the battery, between the vertical tubes.

[Muzz]

 

I await with interest. I will certainly give you an "A" for even thinking about it, let alone trying. I think they call it "thinking outside the square".

[Triple Jim]

Can you estimate the flow at 30 psi?  If so, HP can be calculated from that, and adjusted for an estimated efficiency.  I assume it's a positive displacement pump, so you could rotate it a known number of turns and measure the fluid it pumps to get the volume/turn, then multiply by the number of turns/second (50).   

As a point of reference, at 30 psi, 1 liter/second requires about 0.28 hp, assuming 100% efficiency.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Can you estimate the flow at 30 psi?  If so, HP can be calculated from that, and adjusted for an estimated efficiency.  I assume it's a positive displacement pump, so you could rotate it a known number of turns and measure the fluid it pumps to get the volume/turn, then multiply by the number of turns/second (50).   

As a point of reference, at 30 psi, 1 liter/second requires about 0.28 hp, assuming 100% efficiency.

The pump is a trocoid type.

As far as I know, it will be pumping something like 2-3 gallons per minute maximum at 30 psi.

[Aaron D.]

It's for cooling only, so it won't take a lot of power to circulate.

[Triple Jim]

3 gallons is about 12 liters, so that means 12/60= 0.2 liters/second.  0.2 x 0.28 hp = 0.056 hp, assuming 100% efficiency.  Figuring some inefficiency, 1/12 hp would be in the ballpark.

The 90W motor will draw less than 90W if it's not loaded to its rating, so it would probably work fine, but you could get away with a smaller one if the estimated flow and pressure are correct.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Thanks Jim! Just the information I was looking for. 1/12 hp (0.083 hp) is ~ 62 watts, so I'll use that as a minimum. 

[BigDave in PA]

Charlie, There was a guy from NY that had an eldovert and I think he used an electric diesel fuel pump for his. I think his name was Dale Peterson and he rode that bike to rallies for a number of years.

[Triple Jim]

Charlie, There was a guy from NY that had an eldovert and I think he used an electric diesel fuel pump for his. I think his name was Dale Peterson and he rode that bike to rallies for a number of years.

That's a great idea.  They're not expensive and are made for continuous duty for many hours.

[fotoguzzi]

Where is RodeKyll on this? I'm sure he's done all the math already..

are you keeping the tank location near stock? there is a direct relationship between the cooler and tank height.

It's for cooling only, so it won't take a lot of power to circulate.

No, it pumps into the torq converter.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Charlie, There was a guy from NY that had an eldovert and I think he used an electric diesel fuel pump for his. I think his name was Dale Peterson and he rode that bike to rallies for a number of years.

Yes, I met Dale a few times, once at the WNY Rally when it was at the Cattaraugus Rod & Gun Club and again at the MD Rally. The notes I scribbled down from one conversation say he used a Holley (drag racing) fuel pump with regulator. Seemed to work well. I thought about going the same route but was having trouble finding an affordable pump that put out enough psi and also a good quality regulator.

are you keeping the tank location near stock? there is a direct relationship between the cooler and tank height.

Tank and oil cooler (both original Convert parts) are almost exactly at the same height as on the original frame.

[fotoguzzi]

Nice, might be worth a PM to RODEKYLL.. He's got knowledge of the external pump possibilities I think.

[Aaron D.]

Where is RodeKyll on this? I'm sure he's done all the math already..

are you keeping the tank location near stock? there is a direct relationship between the cooler and tank height.
No, it pumps into the torq converter.

It pumps to the converter but only to circulate the fluid for cooling.

62 watts, should be easy.

[fotoguzzi]

my EVert in 2007

[Muzz]

Talking of RK, just had a look and see he has not been active since Dec 18. Anyone heard from him? Hope he is ok.

[fotoguzzi]

the original "rodekyll" at the flood rally.. he left before the deluge.





we left too..



early next morning this area was under at least 8 feet of water from a flash flood.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

An update to this thread. After driving myself (more) insane trying to find a suitable motor to drive the original pump, I finally decided to just buy an "off-the-shelf" pump and be done with it. After considering a few different ones, I settled on a Turbowerx Exa-Pump with the optional adjustable pressure bypass valve.



The TurboWerx Exa-Pump� is the ultimate achievement in high-temperature, high-reliability pump technology. This pump was designed from the ground up to handle the most extreme conditions found in any motor vehicle, with a special emphasis on turbocharger oil scavenging applications. Built on extremely rugged spur gear technology, there is simply no other pump that can be compared to this hi-temp, 10,000 hour continuously rated pump. Aerospace/military-grade quality finally available...and at an affordable price.

It wasn't inexpensive and isn't what you'd call compact with the heatsink, but it should be very durable and will fit into the allotted space.

Here it is sitting more or less where it will mount, but probably a bit lower, along with my "CAD" Moto Batt MBTX16U battery.

[bigbikerrick]

Awesome project,Charlie! I will be following this build closely, its very interesting to me.
Rick                                                         

[Aaron D.]

Modern cooling concept even on the Scout engine, lower volume/high flow. The exchanger size is important!

[not-fishing]

I was Blond, before it all fell out, now I'm just dazed and confused

What are you "pumping" the ATF for?

Isn't that what the torque-converter is for?

Mark

I often depend on the kindness of others to "illuminate" me

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I was Blond, before it all fell out, now I'm just dazed and confused

What are you "pumping" the ATF for?

Isn't that what the torque-converter is for?

Mark

I often depend on the kindness of others to "illuminate" me

As noted previously, the pump circulates the atf through the torque converter and oil cooler. The torque converter doesn't pump anything.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I would have used a generator off an Eldo or similar as the motor, a constant speed that can be sped up by weakening the field with resistors.

[centauro]

Anyone want to take a guess?

Here's the situation: I'm building an "Ambovert" - '72 Ambassador with Cal II engine and Convert transmission, driveshaft, swingarm, rear drive, etc. I chose to not use the original timing cover with built in pump as I don't want the alternator lump on the crank nose. Instead I'm using an Eldo timing cover, crank adapter, Scrambler Cycle alternator up in the "V" and will be using an electric pump of some sort to circulate the atf.

I could buy a ready-made pump for $400, the adjustable pressure regulator adds another $125.
 


But, I'm "cheap" and building this bike on a tight budget. So my plan is to cut the original pump out of the timing cover, find an electric motor capable of running it and machine shaft-to-pump and pump-to-motor adapters. This achieves a few goals; low cost, correct fittings for the original type hoses and having a pump that I know will maintain the correct pressure at all times.

The problem, as the subject line states, is knowing how powerful of an electric motor I need. It will, of course, need to be 12 volt and should spin the pump at around 3000 rpm. I've been surfing the web in search of a suitable motor and have come up with a few likely candidates ranging in power from 90 watts (0.120 hp) to 200 watts (0.268 hp). Problem is I have no idea how many watts/hp will be required to run the atf pump at 30 continuous psi.

Mocking up the front end I built from drum-brake Loop and Convert parts, the Cal engine with Convert transmission sitting in place. I plan to mount the atf pump where the original voltage regulator was behind the battery, between the vertical tubes.

For a 90 W 12V motor, I would think a car's windshield wiper motor from a junkyard (did someone say cheap?) would be worth a try, Charlie....

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I would have used a generator off an Eldo or similar as the motor, a constant speed that can be sped up by weakening the field with resistors.

And put it where? A Loop generator is huge.

I had a number of ideas of how to drive a pump - running if off of the back of a VW Beetle generator, mounting it where the distributor is and driving it off of the cam, grafting the original pump into the Loop timing cover and few others, but each had some issue that ruled it out. 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

For a 90 W 12V motor, I would think a car's windshield wiper motor from a junkyard (did someone say cheap?) would be worth a try, Charlie....

Maybe enough power, not continuous use rated. Even old ones usually ran in bushings, not bearings. Moot point now anyway, I've already chosen the Turbowerx pump. 

[Arizona Wayne]

I had a `80 Convert w/a Velorex 562 hack and never had any atf pump issues or burned seals.  What I did was put 2 oil coolers in series(1 on crash bar) and installed a thermostat from the atf tank to the dash to monitor the atf temp.  I then learned what temps were critical to keep the atf happy and in cases when the atf was getting too hot(like stop & go uphill in tight twisty mtns.) I'd pull over for a few minutes and let the atf cool down, then restart.  This system never failed and didn't cost that much to set up.    I shifted the tranny as needed.

[Groover]

Will the pump's motor work with a potentiometer on its electrical circuit that can then be tie to your throttle position?

Also, Are you going to need up the wattage on the charging system to support the pump addition?

Great R&D work on this by the way. I always enjoy your threads!

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Will the pump's motor work with a potentiometer on its electrical circuit that can then be tie to your throttle position?

Also, Are you going to need up the wattage on the charging system to support the pump addition?

Great R&D work on this by the way. I always enjoy your threads!

I really don't see the need to vary the pump speed since I can just set the desired pressure and run the motor/pump at a constant speed.

Charging system will be upgraded with a Scrambler Cycle alternator kit (already purchased). 600 watts vs. 300 watts.

[Groover]

Gotcha, that makes sense. Wasn't sure if that pump makes a strange/loud pump sound when running that would be noticeable at low engine RPMs/idle whereas it would be more quiet if the pump were dialed down to run at a lower speed to match the lower RPM/sound of the engine - plus, it would add to the "Turbo" sound if it were proportional to the throttle opening!

Just try it anyway! Don't you want to do more than necessary??! 

[mtiberio]

I have a theory that the atf pump does 2 things. One is it circulates the atf to run it thru the cooler. The second is, it forces the atf into the torque converter where the spinning of the TC wants to force atf out. In this way, it has to have more pressure forcing in than the TC has a tendency to expel. I'd bet that the higher the RPM the more the TC wants to eject oil, so the atf pump needs to have a higher pressure at high rpm. Luckily it is cam rpm driven, and so should up to a point produce more pressure at higher rpm. by going with a constant pressure pump, you have to scale it for the worst case, and at low rpm might be forcing too much pressure into the TC. Source of leaks? who knows... I hope not. Maybe that is what the 2ndary return to the atf tank is for.