Author Topic: What's With False Neutral??  (Read 8608 times)

Offline voncrump

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Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2017, 03:36:31 PM »
Some explanation off the Guzzi gearshift neutral issue. It is an inherent part of the design. The shifter drum has to turn a long way to shift the forks and between the gear detention notches is all a variable position neutral. You have to shift the gear lever all the way to rotate the drum to the next notch.
 


This is a Guzzi shifter drum. All the distance between the notches at the left side is a false neutral

A more modern design has a roller detent system and once the roller reaches the top of the ramp the roller runs down the ramp to complete the gear shift. Much harder to balance the roller on top of the ramp if you don't shift the lever far enough.



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This is an Aprillia shift drum.
Hope this helps. You can be relaxed when riding a Guzzi but you must always give the gear lever a firm solid action.
Cheers,voncrump.
1996 1100 sport
2016 V711
1988  Lario ( long gone )
1982 V50111 (long gone)

Offline voncrump

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Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2017, 04:26:01 PM »
My last post might need a bit more explanation for those who don't know how these thing work. The shifter drum must be turned to an exact position and held in that position. This crude drawing is only to explain how the drum is held in those positions. The way the drum is rotated and the gears are shifted is a whole lot more complicated.



It's not the best of designs but we are stuck with it..
Cheers, voncrump
1996 1100 sport
2016 V711
1988  Lario ( long gone )
1982 V50111 (long gone)

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2017, 04:46:18 PM »
Voncrump,  Now that was an excellent explanation.

Shift it w/authority. And that's why you need good linkage.
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Offline Murray

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Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2017, 05:50:49 PM »
I dearly love riding my '95 Cali 1100i. She's performing very well this summer. But can any of my esteemed Guzzi gurus tell me why do I have these false neutral shifts?

Doesn't happen all-the-time, but too frequently and annoying. It usually happens between 2nd and 3rd, but not always. Although it seems to happen more at higher rev shirting, it can happen anytime. Once the expected gear is not there, as it's in some-kind-of neutral, I can usually tap it in with a second try, but sometimes it stubbornly refuses to acquire desired gear and I must down-shift and try again.

Am I missing something here?

Last time the final drive oil/gearbox oil was changed? The factory interval is a bit too long IMO tend to change it with the oil and seems to reduce the occurrence of false neutrals.

Wildguzzi.com

Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2017, 05:50:49 PM »

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2017, 06:36:40 PM »
Voncrump,  Now that was an excellent explanation.

Shift it w/authority. And that's why you need good linkage.


It was. Kidsmoke from Indiana is dealing with the "good linkage" problem as we speak.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline perter

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Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2017, 08:19:17 AM »
Voncrump, nice explanation. Just to clarify: The shift between 2nd and 3rd seems to be the place where most false neutrals occur. To me it also feels like there's a little more to "fall in place" there, is that linked to the drum design also?

As for oil influence, I rode 6000km on unknown oil, then changed to Castrol Syntrans 75W140 which is API-GL5 approved and found way fewer false neutrals. I can not say it's linked to the oil alone since I changed to Tarozzi rearsets with multiple adjustment shift pedal and reworked the shift linkages to reduce slack... all in all a combo where after 3000km  I in average experience one false neutral per tank now

Offline voncrump

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Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2017, 02:59:06 PM »
Gidday Perter.
When the gears are shifted from 2nd to third gear two shifter forks are being moved.
It goes like this, N to 1st one fork moves. 1st to 2nd one fork. 2nd to 3rd two forks. 3rd to 4th one fork. 4th to 5th two forks.
Moving two forks takes more effort to shift and I have seen a build up of varnish on the rod that the shifter forks slide on.
This can cause more effort to be needed to shift the gears.
Be really carefull with any oil additives that may coat the internal parts.
Also make sure your clutch is freeing up properly. If the clutch is dragging it may load the drive dogs and make things hang up slightly.
Otherwise if you have the right oil, the clutch is adjusted correctly and the linkages are moving freely then give the lever a good heave every shift. You won't damage anything.
Otherwise sell that troublesome SP to me and buy a Honyamakawazuki.
Cheers,voncrump.
By the way I use 75-140 gear oil in my 1100 Sport straight cut box.
1996 1100 sport
2016 V711
1988  Lario ( long gone )
1982 V50111 (long gone)

Offline skippy

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Re: What's With False Neutral??
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2017, 12:23:42 PM »
From an old joke thread on this forum:

Guzzi neutrals are just like cops: you can never find them when you need them, but they are always around when you don't!

But, seriously, like others mentioned earlier, taking all the play out of the linkages, lubricating all the moving joints and being decisive with your boot will make false neutrals a rare occurrence.

This is the minimum that is required to assure consistent smooth shifting. I took it to an other level by completely replacing the entire factory linkage with all of its sloppyness with a linkage that I fabricated out of Heim joints. On my old 03 Stone Touring with the 5-speed, it made all the difference. I never found false neutral again and the shifting of that 5-speed became absolutely precise.

Skippy 
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