V7III Charging System

[chrisfer]

Time I updated this thread,
I decided to have a look at the alternator, I didn't quite get it all apart but I had a good squiz inside.
While i was in there took a picture of the oil pump hidden below the chain sprocket

Anyone know if it is possible to remove the front cover whithout lost motor oil ?

[Kiwi_Roy]

You will lose some oil because there is oil in there but weather its below the normal fill level I didn't want to find out so I just dropped it all.
You should be able to project the level from the dipstick's around to the front.
I will be doing mine again when the parts arrive, I can test it out.
Update:
 If the oil is at or below the line on the dipstick you should be ok (based on screwing the dipstick in)

[Zoom Zoom]

Roy, any updates on your replacement parts?

John Henry

[Kiwi_Roy]

Roy, any updates on your replacement parts?

John Henry

Apparently Piaggio has approved replacing the parts but they haven't arrived yet, In the meantime I'm racking up the miles with the help of a battery tender, also carrying the original battery in the top box as a spare, so far haven't had to use it.
Addition of the Voltmeter is most reassuring.
I will update the thread when I get the parts in

[Bert Remington]

KR -- too funny. You've got to share a picture of this. I guess when a boyz gotta ride he's gonna ride.

[moto-uno]

 Perfectly understandable , the weather here has finally turned to summer ( a god awfully long wait ) and bikes are for riding .
And as he says Moto Guzzi , making riders electricians for a century , or something to that effect :) . Peter

[Vagrant]

K R That's the same thing I'm doing.

[Kiwi_Roy]

K R That's the same thing I'm doing.

But you aren't waiting on Piaggio I'm sure you'll be all fixed long before me.
I'm a stubborn son of a gun under warranty is under warranty besides I'm still mad about it catching fire, they never acknowledged that.

[Bert Remington]

KR -- surprisingly you are holding two parts: the outer shell p/n 2B00355xx (I'm looking at the Stone Parts Catalog) and the thermal cover p/n 2B003643.  Maybe you can get a warranty claim for just the two thermal covers.

[Kiwi_Roy]

KR -- surprisingly you are holding two parts: the outer shell p/n 2B00355xx (I'm looking at the Stone Parts Catalog) and the thermal cover p/n 2B003643.  Maybe you can get a warranty claim for just the two thermal covers.

I have no intention of putting the flammable part back.

[twowheeladdict]

But you aren't waiting on Piaggio I'm sure you'll be all fixed long before me.
I'm a stubborn son of a gun under warranty is under warranty besides I'm still mad about it catching fire, they never acknowledged that.

Put some mistrals on there and you won't have to worry about the tin foil.  :)  When I pulled my covers off after 2 years the foil still looked brand new. 

[Vagrant]

Roy, I just sent a PM.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Parts arrived today

I didn't pay that.

Looking at the rotor you see the Stainless outer shell, inside that is a thin Stainless Steel sleeve that holds the 6 magnets in place.
This side of the Stator faces forward and bolts into the removable cover,

Rear view of the Rotor, you can see the taper that fits to the crankshaft.

You can see the Star connection at 9 O'clock. Note how the insulation has worn off the wires at Star point and coils wires at 11 O'Clock, they ship the stator inside the rotor,
its suspended forward about 3 mm by the magnetic field but every time the package is dropped the Stator springs back crashing into the bottom of the rotor, several of the wires have been hammered quite flat, Piaggio should really ship the system with some cardboard or foam between the two parts to prevent this banging together.

I will take some careful measurements of this thread as it might be handy if you wanted to make a custom puller., Its a fairly large taper with no keyway as you can see 2 back.

Here for reference are the pictures I took of the original

I think this is the shot that finally Convinced Piaggio that I had a valid claim (2 blackened coils)

Clear view of the M12 x 1.25 x 50 bolt and 3 mm washer holding the rotor to the crank.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I spent some time measuring the threads thinking about how i'm going to get the rotor off, I have a 3 legged puller but I doubt it would be up to the job.
The rotor is made of stainless steel or at least its not ferrous, it has 6 what look like ceramic magnets and a Stainless steel liner to ensure the magnets can't break free snd clash with the stator.
There is a 1mm gap between Stator and Rotor.
The threads are 33 mm from tlp to tip and the root looks like 30 mm, my metric thread gauge 1.5 pitch is a perfect fit.
I wonder if that would be a standard thread for a metric nut, it would be easy to weld up a puller from a steel nut. Come on you machinist types

The winding is 3 x 6 coils, at ambient temperature each string of 6 measure 0.2409 Ohms (just the coils), from one lead to another they measure ~ 0.492 Ohms
I measured these using a method known as a drop test so the figures are quite accurate.
A better picture with more dimensions, I forgot about the scanner.
I drew in the crankshaft and holding bolt/washer in red, these are from the Guzzi parts catalog.

[Bert Remington]

KR -- you mean you don't have a 020847Y in your tool box? Seems like you have everything else. Well here's some pictures to help.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ahh Ha, so that's how its supposed to work, very poor pictures but I can see the extractor threads on to the 33 mm x 1.5 thread.
I may have to leave the rotor on for now and just change the stator.
If anybody wants to make an extractor you have enough information now.
Heres the thread part https://www.mcmaster.com/metric-hex-nuts/thread-pitch~1-5millimeters/thread-size~m33/

[Chethro]

Was there a reason why you needed to change the rotor?

A bit of Glyptal paint could be put on the worn places on the new stator. The new one appears to be epoxy dipped. I'm not sure of a good touch up insulating epoxy.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Was there a reason why you needed to change the rotor?

I don't think I will, not without a decent puller anyway.
Piaggio shipped it as a unit I will just keep the new Rotor and old stator together.

[Bert Remington]

The rotor and stator assembly is listed as a single part.  Standalone stators are available in the aftermarket.

The rationale for replacing the rotor is the unlikely event the ceramic magnets underwent accelerated aging when the stator phases shorted.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The rotor and stator assembly is listed as a single part.  Standalone stators are available in the aftermarket.

The rationale for replacing the rotor is the unlikely event the ceramic magnets underwent accelerated aging when the stator phases shorted.

Since one of the tests is to operate with the phases shorted together I don't think thats likely besides the phases are shorted out all the time when the battery is fully charged.
They shouldn't ship them together like that without something to keep the two parts from clashing.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Today was the day for finally changing out the stator so I proceeded to gain access

You can see in this view that the ABS bracket is right in the way of the top cover bolt so that had to come apart, what a pain that was, 3 bolts to remove and no access, more about that later.
Once you get that out of the way release the breather hose.

Unbolting the ABS bracket.

Unbolting the timing sensor.

Finally off, you have to pull hard because the magnets resist coming apart.

The dud coils.

The timing wheel, the hollow shaft is actually the breather system it plugs into the seal in the next picture and runs to the hose coming out the top of the case.

Through the seal you can see in the cover.

Getting ready to install the new stator in the timing cover.

Have to hurry now as the grommet doesn't want to stay in place, I could have done this differently.

Never again will I have to unbolt all the ABS brackets to gain access to the top timing cover bolt, I drilled this rough hole through both brackets, I,ll spray it tomorrow although its hidden behind the Voltage regulator.
I should have drilled this hole right from the start, it goes through two brackets about 1/2" below the slot, the factory of course would add the ABS after the engine is installed.

[Bert Remington]

KR -- we don't care about your snits how MG makes everything hard (whiner you need to own a Norge to get some perspective).

We want to know what caused the phase coils to turn black.  And you never showed the back side of the stator.  Frustrating.  I want to know if one of my two theories is correct.  It's my nature.

BTW I'm learning on my Stone (arrived Sunday) that if in doubt take it apart.  Just like the Norge without bodywork.  Did your exhaust shields have those two insulating washers with silicone grease?  Was one of the screws (the rear underside) shorter than the other two contrary to the parts manual which says all three same length?  As I encounter them I'm replacing hex heads with socket heads.  And what's your Givi key for?

[Kiwi_Roy]

KR -- we don't care about your snits how MG makes everything hard (whiner you need to own a Norge to get some perspective).
Thats why I don't own a Norge and why I soon got rid of the Lario, too much tupperware, why would I want a motorbike I can't see. I don't just moan, i did something about it  .

We want to know what caused the phase coils to turn black.  And you never showed the back side of the stator.  Frustrating.  I want to know if one of my two theories is correct.  It's my nature.
I will take some pictures tomorrow, actually I will have to move the coil leads out of the way, I suspect a few turns shorted causes local heating similar to what happens in motors, note the two adjacent coils are on different phases, we used to have a device called a Growler for finding those.

BTW I'm learning on my Stone (arrived Sunday) that if in doubt take it apart.  Just like the Norge without bodywork.  Did your exhaust shields have those two insulating washers with silicone grease?  Was one of the screws (the rear underside) shorter than the other two contrary to the parts manual which says all three same length? I will have to check for you, I do know one of the screws was cross threaded at the factory, I don't recall any washers but there was some sticky stuff As I encounter them I'm replacing hex heads with socket heads.  And what's your Givi key for? The fugly top box on the Griso, I had to raid the tool pouch, contrary to popular belief I don't have too many tools lol

[Vagrant]

I'll see you and raise you one double butt ugly V7III at 16000 miles.
tons of red Loctite on those 3 mounting screws.
more to follow after I ride it.

[Zoom Zoom]

Wow, that looks bad!

No way of knowing for sure I suppose, but a cause would be interesting. (Heat, poor manufacturing???)

John Henry

[Wayne Orwig]

Vagrant and I found getting that timing cover off is a royal pain. We were getting ready to hack saw something off.

I assumed that there would be a LOT of oil trapped in there, to keep the coil cool. But there was nothing. A little oil dripped out as expected from a timing cover, but that was it. My understanding was that was the main reason for putting them in the cover.

There wasn't anything obvious that caused the overheating. Well, Vagrant has a few gadgets hooked up, but in reality, things like a radar detector are nothing compared the a headlight and such.

If it is a shunt regulator, maybe the magnet is a bit too strong. Normally shunt regulators simply rely on the core to saturate on the magnetic field to be at max, and limit the coil current. If something in there is too powerful, and the regulator is shunting the current, it could generate a bit more heat then it was designed for.

The labeling on the replacement coil was a bit different then the stock. Hopefully it has been upgraded a touch

[guzzisteve]

I think there will be more of this in time to come. They need better out sourcing for parts other than China.

[Bert Remington]

Vagrant -- you really had me going with those pictures.  I was wondering how KR's stator changed so much from previous pictures.  Then I realized it was your stator.  We need pictures of 3-wire cable and connector to see if there was any overheating there.

Since you didn't mention a new rotor with your new stator like the pair KR received, I assume you purchased an aftermarket stator.  Is this correct?

Wayne -- KR and I are pretty sure the regulator is a ShinDengen 3-phase Shorting (Shunt) SCR (not MOSFET) regulator/rectifier: https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/ where the last two characters of the part number indicate MG's specific connector type and wire colors.

I think we are looking at the following candidates for stator failures:

1. generalized overheating within design loads due to lack of oil cooling
2. generalized overheating outside design limits -- too small load
3. generalized overheating outside design limits -- too large load
4. manufacturing error in stator winding
5. phase wire short in stator 3-wire cable clamp
6. phase wire short due to pinched wire under stator
7. design error in rotor-stator relationship

After replacing his stator, Vagrant will soon provide a second data point for Candidate 1 as he'll be riding in the middle of summer.

For Candidates 2 and 3 I would expect to see signs of overheating in connectors and wiring as the stator windings look robust in comparison.

Candidate 4 seems unlikely for singleton events such as we are observing here.

Candidates 5 and 6 are my favorites for KR's stator failure.

Wayne provided a cogent argument for Candidate 7.

I'm still trying to decide on installing the Koso BA003190 Mini 3 Amp and Volt Meter before my 900 mile service.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Well Bert you pretty much covered all possibilities
I'll just follow my gut "Wow those wires are not well fastened down"
With the wires vibrating at high frequency its worn through the insulation in places.
I suspect the replacement has a lot more epoxy holding the coil leads in place.

[Vagrant]

Drum roll please, first follow up!
First a special thank you to Wayne Orwig for damm near 4 hours of labor and knowledge yesterday. I would have taken a BFH to something. What a pain. You folks with tiny oil mist leaks thinking about changing the gasket. DON'T!!! Go have a drink and a good cigar and call it a day. Besides, I bet your doing this same job soon anyway.
Next Kiwi Roy for all the help, pictures, and pioneering the way.
Also, to Guzzi Steve for the phone help, ideas, etc. It's nice to have Guzzi friends.
Also to whoever turned me on to the Chinese supplier.

https://vipih.com/products/m550-a429
With the 5% pop up discount $94. to the door. The Guzzi package is $550 + freight and tax. What a crock!

I wacked off (couldn't resist) 150 miles of mountain curves today and so far so good. Charging normally and running great.
Wayne cleared all the codes and rechecked the O2 sensors. Yep, both bad so he shut them off. My yellow check engine light of 6 months is gone and it runs as good as a 750CC small-block could. strangely there used to be some decell popping with the Mistrals and now there is almost none.
I am leaning more towards the stator running so hot it fries the tiny bit of engine oil on it then it shorts it out.
There was no sign of connector failure and the wire from the stator (stock one) is 30" long so as Wayne says it wasn't made just for the V7. Probably made for all their scooters. No sign of any pinch either.
Yes, I am 100% convinced my original regulator was just fine.
Now I really need to find a nice small voltmeter like Zoom Zoom has just with the decimal point moved over a notch. I'm still frugal! The 99 cents cheap digital one can't be seen in the light worth a crap.