Author Topic: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread  (Read 114590 times)

Offline boatdetective

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2014, 09:01:34 AM »
Bummer- someone already mentioned heat. Another bit of hard won knowledge is that standard "Easy Outs" are anything but. The only ones that have worked consistently for me are straight flute types sold by snap on. RE finishing aluminum- your nemesis is "filiform corrosion". It's the microscopic thin layer of oxidation that must be removed before you paint the part. Sure, bead blasting beats the corrosion off- but that also means a total teardown. In my business, we have lots of alum corrosion. You need to etch the surface with acid, then treat with a "conversion coat" to stabilize the surface. Different acids etch different alloys. Aluminum etch kits typically use phosphic- though i don't find it super effective. There's also hydroflouric (Zep-Alum- found where they maintain fleets of bright finished aluminum tractor trailers). It is VERY dangerous to use. Another thought is to contact the folks at Airstream and seee what chemicals they would recommend. Remember- buffing merely folds the corrosion into the surface.  The conversion coating is a chromate base that basically neutralizes the surface. Do not etch/prep the surface until you are ready to paint. If it sounds like a pain in the ass- it is. However, teearing it all apart in 4 years to do it over again is as well.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 10:58:51 AM by boatdetective »
Jonathan K
Marblehead, MA

1981 V50III "Gina"
2007 Griso 1100 "Bluto" (departed but not forgotten)
2003 EV "Lola" gone to the "Ridin' Realtor" in Peoria
2007 1200 Sport "Ginger"

"Who's the cat who won't cop out, when there's danger all about?"  -Isaac Hayes

Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2014, 11:33:49 AM »
Bummer- someone already mentioned heat. Another bit of hard won knowledge is that standard "Easy Outs" are anything but. The only ones that have worked consistently for me are straight flute types sold by snap on. RE finishing aluminum- your nemesis is "filiform corrosion". It's the microscopic thin layer of oxidation that must be removed before you paint the part. Sure, bead blasting beats the corrosion off- but that also means a total teardown. In my business, we have lots of alum corrosion. You need to etch the surface with acid, then treat with a "conversion coat" to stabilize the surface. Different acids etch different alloys. Aluminum etch kits typically use phosphic- though i don't find it super effective. There's also hydroflouric (Zep-Alum- found where they maintain fleets of bright finished aluminum tractor trailers). It is VERY dangerous to use. Another thought is to contact the folks at Airstream and seee what chemicals they would recommend. Remember- buffing merely folds the corrosion into the surface.  The conversion coating is a chromate base that basically neutralizes the surface. Do not etch/prep the surface until you are ready to paint. If it sounds like a pain in the ass- it is. However, teearing it all apart in 4 years to do it over again is as well.

Wow! Thanks for that. I remember you offering similar advice when I asked about paint/bare aluminum finishes awhile back. Thanks again for the response. I'll have to think deeply... but not too deeply (Spring is coming!) and try to do this right.

-Joe

Offline boatdetective

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2014, 11:54:54 AM »
Here's another thought- check with your local auto body supply store. They usually have very good, pro quality materials. They must have some prep system for repairing aluminum body panels, like on the high end Audis. Any local body shop that does high end warranty work on Audis should know just what we're talking about.
Jonathan K
Marblehead, MA

1981 V50III "Gina"
2007 Griso 1100 "Bluto" (departed but not forgotten)
2003 EV "Lola" gone to the "Ridin' Realtor" in Peoria
2007 1200 Sport "Ginger"

"Who's the cat who won't cop out, when there's danger all about?"  -Isaac Hayes

Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2014, 12:01:15 PM »
I didn't realize the hole didn't go all the way across, but it looks like you have what you need there. Did I understand you can source the  bearings locally but there is no real break in price or you are having trouble finding them locally? As you probably already know 3303 denotes the size of the bearing. There would also be a 2RS along with that denoting 2 rubber seals. I wouldn't expect you would have any trouble pulling them out.

Have you checked with NAPA? I have had a lot of success with them for very resonable cost. Worst was I had to wait until tomorrow for them to get something in, but that has not been a issue to me so far.

On a slightly unrelated note, but very important, there is a small needle bearing on the outside of the rear drive. The needles are in there loose. There is no inside race. Be careful not to lose them. That bearing is a pricey little bugger. About 80 bucks so I have heard. If it were me, I would get the needles out of there for now, count them and put them in a baggie with a slip of paper bearing the count. On reassembly, grease will hold them in place until you slip the axel back in.

John Henry

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2014, 12:01:15 PM »

Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2014, 12:09:31 PM »
Here's another thought- check with your local auto body supply store. They usually have very good, pro quality materials. They must have some prep system for repairing aluminum body panels, like on the high end Audis. Any local body shop that does high end warranty work on Audis should know just what we're talking about.


Good idea! I'll see what I can do...

I didn't realize the hole didn't go all the way across, but it looks like you have what you need there. Did I understand you can source the  bearings locally but there is no real break in price or you are having trouble finding them locally? As you probably already know 3303 denotes the size of the bearing. There would also be a 2RS along with that denoting 2 rubber seals. I wouldn't expect you would have any trouble pulling them out.

Have you checked with NAPA? I have had a lot of success with them for very resonable cost. Worst was I had to wait until tomorrow for them to get something in, but that has not been a issue to me so far.

On a slightly unrelated note, but very important, there is a small needle bearing on the outside of the rear drive. The needles are in there loose. There is no inside race. Be careful not to lose them. That bearing is a pricey little bugger. About 80 bucks so I have heard. If it were me, I would get the needles out of there for now, count them and put them in a baggie with a slip of paper bearing the count. On reassembly, grease will hold them in place until you slip the axel back in.

John Henry

I think a few locals have the bearing, just not for a better price.

In regards to the needle bearing, BTDT!  ;D I found the bearing for relatively cheap on Amazon and replaced it early last year or so?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007EDOI04/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 $14.09 shipped, vs Guzzi prices... the one I received was made in Germany as well btw.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 12:10:10 PM by Unkept »

Offline boatdetective

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2014, 01:10:25 PM »
Joe- here's another thought:

Strip the paint off the rear drive and....

...leave it natural.

Think about it- so it goes gray after a while, who cares? if you spend a little time to smooth the finish now, it will be easy enough to clean if you're bored and feeling anal. Otherwise, you won't really have to worry about what you spill on it, if a stray rock flys up and chips the finish, etc.
Jonathan K
Marblehead, MA

1981 V50III "Gina"
2007 Griso 1100 "Bluto" (departed but not forgotten)
2003 EV "Lola" gone to the "Ridin' Realtor" in Peoria
2007 1200 Sport "Ginger"

"Who's the cat who won't cop out, when there's danger all about?"  -Isaac Hayes

Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2014, 01:58:20 PM »
Joe- here's another thought:

Strip the paint off the rear drive and....

...leave it natural.

Think about it- so it goes gray after a while, who cares? if you spend a little time to smooth the finish now, it will be easy enough to clean if you're bored and feeling anal. Otherwise, you won't really have to worry about what you spill on it, if a stray rock flys up and chips the finish, etc.

That's a lot of another thoughts! ;)

I like this one though, I think it's the question I had asked before... is it ok to have the bare aluminum finish? There was some debate as to whether the aluminum used on modern bikes can stand up to corrosion without any sort of finish... I would love to have the natural aluminum look on the engine, transmission, and rear drive. Seriously.

Any more yays or nays on this? Maybe I should just tape off the frame, etc. and spray down the whole engine and drivetrain and say goodbye to the black paint...

-Joe

Offline twhitaker

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2014, 02:00:31 PM »
Bare aluminum is fine if you like white freckles.
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Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2014, 02:04:23 PM »
Bare aluminum is fine if you like white freckles.

Right... the oxidation. What if I clear coated it?  ??? /edit: I did a little reading again on this, apparently the clear doesn't always adhere well... or the finish appears uneven.

Or I just spray parts black again... but I DO like the lighter color/natural looking engine/drivetrains...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 02:28:06 PM by Unkept »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2014, 04:25:40 PM »
I'll stick by my strip it, paint it with Harley wrinkle paint, and forget about it suggestion.  ;)
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2014, 04:26:50 PM »
I'll stick by my strip it, paint it with Harley wrinkle paint, and forget about it suggestion.  ;)

It's the most logical route... I've got other things to fix rather than to worry about repainting the whole bike just this minute.  :BEER:
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 08:45:24 PM by Unkept »

Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2014, 08:27:56 PM »
3-10-14 Update:

So the first thing on my list was to remove my gas tank. So I grabbed one of these to keep gas from spilling on the floor while I removed the gas lines...





... it was a nice try.

While I moved the tank to the side, I heard the sound of Harleys riding around my block... it was in the low 50's today.  :winer



So I thought, maybe the Odyssey will fit the Breva? No dice, can't really get the terminal connected on it. :( So maybe the Ballistic Lithium will decide to work? Charge up the Lithium and see what happens...



Spoiler: It didn't work. Couldn't start the bike in 50f weather, the battery is toast.  :-\ Second warranty claim?

Subaru sitting in the driveway, I'm thinking of replacing the car later this year. I'm tired of working on bikes AND cars... just bikes is ok with me. ;)



Soon only the topbox will be left, and Chuck would've taken it off first thing!  ;D



The airbox has to be removed in order to access the shock.



Looky here, a metal fuel filter, novel idea Guzzi!  :D



Those snorkels have a funny shape, no? Maybe pod filters would've made all of this maintenance easier... hmmm  ~;



Anyway, removing the top of the airbox is easy, just two bolts... once you remove the tank of course.



Filter is surprisingly clean, seeing as I've never changed it.  :-X





Some oil in the airbox, but nothing crazy. Be sure to unplug the sensor from the front of the airbox!



To remove the airbox you have to wiggle the snorkels back (loosen the clamps on the throttle body first).




Next you must remove two small bolts on brackets behind the gearbox, next to the shock... and then it slides up and out!





I did a bad job in the beginning of this teardown of tracking my bolts... but I've learned to slow down and place each bolt back where it came from... easier to track later.



Almost to the shock! One of my primary goals is to get this baby rebuilt.



Place a 19 on each end, or it'll just spin...



After that bolt is removed, make sure to remove the brackets for the reservoir and remote preload adjuster knob.





Mine is jerry rigged with zip ties as my luggage brackets made me have to get creative.




Next is feeding the preload adjuster back through.



It confused me at first, am I removing the cable and reattaching it?



Then I realized... duh! The main wiring harness is zip tied against it there.



Cut those free, and viola! Slip that puppy out.



One Ohlins shock, ready to be shipped away for rebuild. Any suggestions?



It's looking crazier by the minute.



That's all for today...

Online JBU

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2014, 04:56:15 AM »
I sent mine to Cogent Dynamics.  http://www.motocd.com/mc/

JBU

Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2014, 06:38:34 AM »
I sent mine to Cogent Dynamics.  http://www.motocd.com/mc/



Thanks for that! I'll check them out.

Today I'll have to compile a list of goodies I need from MGCycle, as my wife is currently in the area~ish of their shop... family emergencies...

BUT that means she could save me the shipping fees, and get to meet one of the duo Rick and Gordon.  ;-T

Work to be done though... *sigh*

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2014, 07:03:36 AM »
That's a *really* good job of documentation, Joe..  ;-T Takes a lot of time. For fasteners, I either thread them back where they were, or I have a fair's wheel full of plastic containers that I label. If you know where they came from, it's pretty easy to figure out which go where. I've never torn down a V11S, this will be a great resource.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2014, 02:40:35 PM »
I think I read somewhere you were changing out the swing arm bearings.

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18327&page=4#entry195560

Man, that bike is dirty, I take mine to the car wash and give it a good squirt with the hot soapy water before starting a project
Aluminium engine paint sure freshens things up, I would use it on the rear drive also.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 02:44:55 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2014, 03:30:22 PM »
Thanks for that link Roy, that was the thread I was thinking of in regards to swingarm bearing removal.

Looks like he painted the rear drive too, cool! I may have to take notes from his thread.

Yep it's dirty. I'll clean everything I can before I reassemble it of course.  ;)

I'm pretty tired today... not sure if I'll be cracking into the bike again tonight. Work sucked.

Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2014, 08:09:37 PM »
3-11-14 Update:

Well I had some pizza and felt energized so I got back to work!

First things first, I have to remove this front subframe.



If you look at both pics you'll notice there are three bolts in a triangle formation on each side which hold the subframe to the frame and engine.



Well the top bolts are a major PITA and were stuck on there good and tight! So... I needed some leverage...



By using the handle from my hydraulic lift as an extension for my alan key, I was able to crack these bolts free! They made wonderful noises, singing the song of their rusty people.





Once the bolts are removed the subframe was surprisingly willing to come free. Only there were some zip ties holding the subframe up by the wiring.



One just slipped loose next to the rear frame bolt location.



The others had to be cut!





This one eluded me, it's holding the kickstand sensor to the subframe.

 
To get the subframe out, you have to disconnect the regulator rectifier. It is just too fat to fit through that frame.

So I started labeling the electrical connections, at least so I could understand them...

Left horn


Alternator connections


Connections to the main harness somewhere... at least one was an SAE plug. No need to label that!


There was a ground in there too, but I didn't take a picture.

Subframe and regular rectifier free!


Look how much easier engine access just became!


Put your Guzzi flywheel locking tool in.


And go!


Once this nut is free, you can begin to remove the alternator.


Don't be tempted to remove the rotor from the stator... it'll lose it's special magnetic powers!


Alright! Getting there...


When removing the timing cover, two kinds of bolts are used. Short and long...


The short are all on the top half, the long on the bottom.


Removing the two inside bolts (hidden by the alternator) is a pain... as they are kind of deep in there and the flat end of my allen set won't fit.

My allen set has a rounded end on the long side... I use these to quickly spin out bolts in tight spaces. They should NOT be used to break free bolts that are tight. You may round off the bolt...

So for the first time I used a Guzzi toolkit piece!


It had the flat end that I needed, but there wasn't much grip or leverage for my hands... So I used a tip our Tom here on WildGuzzi showed me when I was changing my starter at the 2011 Elkader national.


It worked beautifully!


The timing case slipped right off, no problems.

It was a gasket failure, as I had suspected.



I will still check the sensors up top in case they are leaking.

Here is the stock tensioner.



Looks OK but I will probably still replace it.

Remember your oil pan... Guzzi says "I bleed oil!"


Bits of gasket junk are all over the engine case... what to do...


I'll be stuck here for a moment. I need a long crazy socket to get this free. I may ask fotoguzzi if I can borrow his, or see if Chuck has the right one laying around.


What have I done?!


End of today's update. Hope you all enjoy. Feel free to let me know what I'm doing wrong, and/or right. Any tips are appreciated as well!

-Joe

Offline Dimples

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2014, 09:03:00 PM »


You're making me have bad dreams tonight-- sorry I looked at this!

It's a long way home from here.


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Offline smdl

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2014, 10:37:47 PM »
Easy-peasy!  Keep at it -- you'll get there!

Shaun
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Offline balvenie

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2014, 10:47:08 PM »
           Enthralling ;D
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2014, 11:04:39 PM »
Here is how I removed the nut, a cheap 3/4 drive socket with a couple of flats ground on it to accept a 12" wrench.
Wrap a few layers of masking tape around the shaft to protect it.


I found the bolts holding the old tension bracket were too long so I simply hacksawed the bracket and added a little note for the next owner, date of installation etc.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:08:12 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2014, 11:33:05 PM »
I had a friends EV crabbed to do the clutch . He had been handing me tools for several evenings when suddenly he asked in horror " Are you gonna be able to put this thing back together ?" To which I replied " Maybe." I managed a straight face for about 30 seconds . Doing good UK .
Dusty


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Offline nc43bsa

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2014, 12:59:00 AM »

I've also been chasing a 30amp fuse melting situation since I bought the bike, I think it's narrowed down to fuse box or battery ground... <shrug> Some of you may remember me changing a worn starter because of this issue. Back in Iowa!  :D




If the plastic fuse casing is melting, as opposed to the foil element inside, look for a bad connection at the fuse blades.  The next thing to melt will be the fuse block ($$$$).
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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2014, 01:08:44 AM »
Good work.

Pete

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2014, 06:34:23 AM »
If the plastic fuse casing is melting, as opposed to the foil element inside, look for a bad connection at the fuse blades.  The next thing to melt will be the fuse block ($$$$).
:+1 This is a common problem with this bike, I was able to bend the clips on mine to get better contact.
The regulator setup leaves a bit to be desired, make sure you add a short ground from the regulator case to a timing cover screw.
Remove the main ground from under the seat release lock and put it somewhere secure before the bike decides to let out it's magic smoke and melt down.

I sent a PM
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2014, 06:52:56 AM »
Attaboy.  ;D It'll go back together no problemo. Taking all these pictures helps jog your memory when that time comes. That said, it takes

the first time..  ;D :BEER:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Online JBU

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2014, 07:04:09 AM »
I love the chaos.  Stuff sprawled out all over the floor.  Reminds me of a poster I once saw of the artist Alexander Caldwell working in his studio.



  Just suggestion have you thought of making a work bench?  Maybe just a couple of saw horses and a sheet plywood. 

Someone once told me a story about a company that made woodworking benches in Africa.  He went to visit the facility and all of the workers were building these beautiful woodworking benches on the floor.  Funny.
JBU

Offline tris

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2014, 07:37:20 AM »
Thanks guys. I just hope I can get this thing back up and running before the warm weather truly hits... otherwise I'm stealing the Breva!  ;D

Chuck, I do think I can get those bearings cheaper, but to pull the old bearings... I may need your assistance. I've read horror stories on the LeMans board.  :o

Edit: Found the bearing on Amazon, may look at a bearing shop as well just in case...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007VG9APC/ref=biss_dp_t_asn $62.00 shipped.

Also, on MG Cycle!

http://www.mgcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=2838 $55.40, without shipping.

Bearing is an SKF 3303 A-2RS1TN9/MT33


I'd be careful about buying bearings from Amazon - there's a lot of copies out there

That bearing is a is 17mm ID x 47mm OD x 22.2mm thick double row angular contact bearing with 2 rubber seals. (It also has a limiting speed of 11000 RPM  ;D)

http://www.skf.com/uk/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/angular-contact-ball-bearings/double-row/index.html?prodid=124003303&imperial=false

The rest of the number doesn't do a hell of a lot in this installation. The bearing on your bike is one of their "high performance" Explorer class bearings but I can't see why that would be needed given that the thing doesn't roate more that 20 degres I guess









2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Offline Unkept

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Re: Unkept's V11 LeMans Repair, Maybe Restoration, Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2014, 07:46:49 AM »
Thanks tris,

My last bearing order from Amazon seemed to be fine. It said "Made in Germany" on there, and the quality looked good... it went in fine.

I will likely be ordering this bearing from Moto International, as they have it for $28. The best bargain yet.

I love the chaos.  Stuff sprawled out all over the floor.  Reminds me of a poster I once saw of the artist Alexander Caldwell working in his studio.



  Just suggestion have you thought of making a work bench?  Maybe just a couple of saw horses and a sheet plywood. 

Someone once told me a story about a company that made woodworking benches in Africa.  He went to visit the facility and all of the workers were building these beautiful woodworking benches on the floor.  Funny.

Nice pic! Yeah I would like a workbench, but there isn't much room at the moment... my shelves are getting full otherwise some of this stuff would be up there. I'll figure something out, but I just moved in a month and half ago and we are still unpacking.

Oh and about the fuse situation. The fuse block is partially melted, has been since I've had the bike. :/ I saw a guy on the V11LeMans board moved his fuse to a maxi fuse holder separate from the fusebox... hmmm

-Joe

 

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