Author Topic: Clanging sound when accelerating  (Read 2155 times)

Offline dave1068

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Clanging sound when accelerating
« on: June 29, 2022, 07:15:54 PM »
While stuck in highway bumper to bumper traffic for about 30min, once I pulled away and accelerated up to 4th gear, the bike made what i can say is a clanging type sound that went away once moving out at a pretty good speed and was gone by the time I was in 6th gear.

Ive heard this sound before, anyone else, and if so, any idea what it is?

Thx-
Dave
-2020 Moto Guzzi V85tt travel

Online AJ Huff

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2022, 07:27:36 PM »
No idea but sounds like you and Tom H need to compare! 😉😀

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2022, 09:07:41 PM »
If it was a hot day, and you’re sitting for large periods of time, I wonder if the oil is settling anywhere. Regardless, certainly can’t be good for an air-cooled machine to be stuck for 30 minutes in the summertime. Hopefully it wasn’t too hot out.
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Offline smdl

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2022, 01:20:31 AM »
This appears to be a thing with V85s when overheating in traffic.  It has only happened to me once, and that was after sitting in barely moving traffic for an hour, but that was more than enough for me.  Hoping that the Beetle map I'm testing will address it.

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2022, 01:20:31 AM »

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2022, 02:53:55 AM »
While stuck in highway bumper to bumper traffic for about 30min, once I pulled away and accelerated up to 4th gear, the bike made what i can say is a clanging type sound that went away once moving out at a pretty good speed and was gone by the time I was in 6th gear.

Ive heard this sound before, anyone else, and if so, any idea what it is?

Thx-

It's called "engine stinking hot" and piston rattle. There is no way I'd sit in bumper to bumper traffic for any length of time on a large capacity air cooled bike.

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Offline Huzo

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2022, 04:05:03 AM »
While stuck in highway bumper to bumper traffic for about 30min, once I pulled away and accelerated up to 4th gear, the bike made what i can say is a clanging type sound that went away once moving out at a pretty good speed and was gone by the time I was in 6th gear.

Ive heard this sound before, anyone else, and if so, any idea what it is?

Thx-
If it’s pre ignition (detonation), it can and should be minimised by keeping your throttle setting low (not winding the living guts out of it) and allowing your revs to climb up a bit higher (4,500 rpm…).
The pre ignition is exacerbated by high cylinder head temperatures and cylinder pressures.
This is brought about by cranking open on the throttle at lower than optimum revs.
Gentle on the throttle and don’t short shift, once the cylinder head temp comes down to sane levels it’ll be ok.

Now of course it may not be pinging at all….

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2022, 06:59:00 AM »
Curious what area of the world you live.
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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2022, 11:10:58 AM »
On aviation air cooled flat engines, mostly Lycomings but Continentals as well, Bolduc aviation did some investigation on why there were so many exhaust valve problems. They found that at ( going by memory) 260 F the alloy in the aluminum cylinder heads was rapidly loosing strength. After an extended running time waiting to take off the engine gets heat soaked. Then before it gets enough cooling air flow over engine, it gets a load taking off. The exhaust valves flop around like fish, not being well supported by the weakening aluminum. By 300F, 50% of the strength is gone. It’s not the same on Guzzi engines, aviation uses steel barrels with aluminum heads screwed on. We use aluminum barrels and heads but it’s a good reason to not load the engine when it’s way hot.
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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2022, 11:20:56 AM »
I prefer to ride slowly on the shoulder until I clear the blockage.If the cops are there they are too busy clearing the problem to stop a bike.If stopped I would explain the air cooed engine vulnerabilities to heat.The only folks bothered by this are stuck far back in the tie up.

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2022, 11:36:36 AM »
I prefer to ride slowly on the shoulder until I clear the blockage.If the cops are there they are too busy clearing the problem to stop a bike. If stopped I would explain the air cooed engine vulnerabilities to heat.The only folks bothered by this are stuck far back in the tie up.

I happily do this myself when the temperature dips too low or rises too high. Just gotta watch out for those folks in our American society who can't stand somebody jumping ahead of the line, physically moving their car or opening their door in front of you to prevent you from doing what's best for the bike (and your health) in those hot summer days or super cold days.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 11:53:27 AM by Dirk_S »
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2022, 05:09:13 PM »
On aviation air cooled flat engines, mostly Lycomings but Continentals as well, Bolduc aviation did some investigation on why there were so many exhaust valve problems. They found that at ( going by memory) 260 F the alloy in the aluminum cylinder heads was rapidly loosing strength. After an extended running time waiting to take off the engine gets heat soaked. Then before it gets enough cooling air flow over engine, it gets a load taking off. The exhaust valves flop around like fish, not being well supported by the weakening aluminum. By 300F, 50% of the strength is gone. It’s not the same on Guzzi engines, aviation uses steel barrels with aluminum heads screwed on. We use aluminum barrels and heads but it’s a good reason to not load the engine when it’s way hot.

Thats for sure. A Guzzi engine stuck in traffic doesn't have a big prop in front of it pushing air over the cylinders even at idle.

Phil
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Offline Moparnut72

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2022, 07:10:34 PM »
On aviation air cooled flat engines, mostly Lycomings but Continentals as well, Bolduc aviation did some investigation on why there were so many exhaust valve problems. They found that at ( going by memory) 260 F the alloy in the aluminum cylinder heads was rapidly loosing strength. After an extended running time waiting to take off the engine gets heat soaked. Then before it gets enough cooling air flow over engine, it gets a load taking off. The exhaust valves flop around like fish, not being well supported by the weakening aluminum. By 300F, 50% of the strength is gone. It’s not the same on Guzzi engines, aviation uses steel barrels with aluminum heads screwed on. We use aluminum barrels and heads but it’s a good reason to not load the engine when it’s way hot.

Kevin Cameron just addressed this issue in the online Cycle World website.
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ask-kevin/metal-creep-cylinder-heads-and-exhaust-valves-explained/

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Offline lucky phil

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2022, 02:43:41 AM »
Kevin Cameron just addressed this issue in the online Cycle World website.
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ask-kevin/metal-creep-cylinder-heads-and-exhaust-valves-explained/

kk

Interesting as always from Cameron but material creep isn't really an issue in a modern engine used on the road esp. Kevin failed to realise that the time limited Max Power setting for old piston engine aircraft (war emergency) basically still exists for modern gas turbine engines. You have a limited time you can operate the engine at Maximum rated power ( often 5 minutes) and then it needs to be pulled back to the "max continuous" setting. We used to run into issues at certain airfields in the high summer temperatures and heavy gross weights where the take off power time limit was reached during climb out but pulling the engine back to max continuous meant the pilot couldn't maintain his climb profile.
BTW I don't know what leak down tester Kevin used but the ones I'm familiar with you don't pump up the cylinder then shut the air supply off and wait for the pressure decay.

Ciao
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 02:45:27 AM by lucky phil »
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Offline gregorm1503

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2024, 09:50:34 AM »
While stuck in highway bumper to bumper traffic for about 30min, once I pulled away and accelerated up to 4th gear, the bike made what i can say is a clanging type sound that went away once moving out at a pretty good speed and was gone by the time I was in 6th gear.

Ive heard this sound before, anyone else, and if so, any idea what it is?

Thx-

Hi Dave,
 I am reaching out because I've been experiencing the same persistent knocking /detonation/preignition problem with my TT E5, even after the latest ECU updates, using quality gasoline, having the valves set up multiple times, mistral/upmaps also not helps,... In my case issue seems to be isolated to the left cylinder.
There are many of us with this problem. Many others probably didnt meet specific condition yet..
I conducted a thorough research and find no solution. It appears that individual attempts will not not yield a resolution and result in wasted resources.
Im in contact with Piaggio who perform data collecting and analysis to get possible solution.
Its perfect time to be involved and share your bike data for compariosn etc..
So im inviting you to contact me to share with you findings and how and with what to contact Piaggio to path direction to solution.. to collective solution that benefits everyone facing a similar challenge.
Please reach out to me via email or through this communication platform at your earliest convenience. Together, we can explore potential avenues to address this concern more effectively.
I’ll address this to other TT fellows in this forum with the same problem..
Looking forward to your response.
Brgds Gregor

Offline dave1068

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2024, 10:16:21 AM »
Hi Greg,

I dont think mine was knocking or pre-ignition, like others have said, I was stuck in freeway traffic for a while and it was more of a clicking/tapping issue as these engines are air cooled only, Once I pulled away and got out of traffic, the noise went away and didnt come back

What you describe may be a bit different if it doesnt go away. Maybe have your dealer check it, provided it makes those noises when there

Good luck and let us know how you make out
Dave
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Online lucian

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2024, 12:19:28 PM »
Sounds like loss of oil viscosity due to overheating.  Even 10/60 has its limitations. Once  over heated ,it will lose , not gain viscosity. I would consider changing out any oil suspect of being overheated.  I use  dip stick thermometers on my air cooled bikes and  they show how quickly oil temps can rise beyond limits without air flowing.  They are also handy in cold temps to verify oil temps are getting high enough to cook off moisture ,>120F.  30 minutes is way too long to idle an air cooled engine , even an oil cooled motor with a fan .

Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2024, 03:25:04 PM »
very sound advice Lucian.A very dear friend had a coolant hose go on his beloved Rover. The garage replaced the hose, replenished the coolant...and a few hundred miles after his engine started knocking.Ended up with the car being scrapped and I'm about 80 % certain that it was due to the oil getting cooked as they had not changed it.

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2024, 08:13:50 AM »
I prefer to ride slowly on the shoulder until I clear the blockage.If the cops are there they are too busy clearing the problem to stop a bike.If stopped I would explain the air cooed engine vulnerabilities to heat.The only folks bothered by this are stuck far back in the tie up.

I will add: Doing this, I learned the hard way (as I'm sure many others have) that the shoulder is where lots of debris accumulates that's being swept from the traffic lanes that doesn't get picked up by a tire in the traffic lanes themselves. Now, when I DO sneak down the shoulder, I go very slowly and scan the surface in front of me for anything suspicious. If you're looking for it, you can see a bolt/screw/sharp sheet-metal, etc and avoid it.

The other discussions about our air-cooled engines suffering from lack of airflow are spot-on and I never allow my engine to suffer needlessly. Also, stalled traffic is where Converts rule.
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Offline chuck peterson

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2024, 11:34:23 AM »
Side question on this situation…

Better to shut the engine down? Or keep idling at a standstill once you know it’s too hot…I experienced the issue once and voted to keep it running …wish i had known about changing the oil

I was actually more scared because it was a Vert…2 containers of fluid heating up…95 degrees and stuck on the West Side Hwy out of NYC…it did make a horrible noise never heard before or since

No wonder cops liked the Vert shifting…. :grin:
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Offline gregorm1503

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2024, 01:29:57 AM »
Hi all and thank you for your replys...

Regarding the knocking issue, it's a typical for V85TT. They experienced a significant problem with E4 TTs, leading to a silent repair/ECU update, and there have been a few updates referring cooling  for E5 as well. You can find more details at this link: NHTSA Website; https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2020/MOTO%20GUZZI/V85%20TT#manufacturerCommunications

I've conducted extensive research last six months and am in communication with both the dealer and Piaggio. Yesterday, they collected data and completed tests, examining Squish and "air thumble flap"(?) data. Currently, I'm awaiting their conclusion.

I can confirm that if the engine, when hot (not overheated), starts with short knocks when load it from 2,500 to 3,500 RPM, it's indicative of typical knocking (detonation or preignition). The knocking intensifies the more you drive in traffic (heat), but it cools down quite rapidly if you can drive it for a minute without stops.
So, someone will never gets to knock, some will experienced it couple of times, some will add >1.000€ into solutions which will not help, and some will sell problem to other because they cant live with it... Someone have it only in left cylinder, someone in both...

In my case its not hard to repeat it. No special condition needed. 15 minutes of heavy traffic and you starting to get there..
I can tolerate a stuck gear sensor or...other parts of "Italian character", but I cannot overlook a knocking failure in the heart of the motorcycle. Numerous TT fellows are experiencing knocking issues, and individual attempts to resolve it have proven unsuccessful.

This is the sounds:
https://youtube.com/shorts/d83BtkgNz64
From 19" frwrd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rjnvl0osIo&t=28s

Knocking is a significant problem that needs to be addressed at the factory level. They require collective data, and I have contacts, directions, and some experience in this matter.

Please contact me to address this matter to Piaggio/dealer properly..

Regards

« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 07:43:39 AM by gregorm1503 »

Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2024, 04:35:25 AM »
Maybe a silly answer but isn't the pining/knocking/detonation and indication of the limitations of an air cooled engine when it happens in these circumstances ?

Offline gregorm1503

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2024, 06:24:18 AM »
We could say all engines are, but knocking isnt a part of normal engine running, even at its limits. Also there are effective solutions, such as implementing forced venting as in classic Vespas or Porsches, or more modern as ECU setups.. or something else.. Its up to engineering to test, solve and after to sell.
Knocking needs to be (technically) avoided at all costs otherwise it will cause severe damage to the engine. Preignition more than detonation.

Air-cooled  machines will (probably) extinct in EU area because they facing major challenges due to the tightening of emission standards (ES). Contrary to simple thinking, gasoline also serves as a coolant. Putting it simple; emissions measurements occur around 2.500 RPMs, and becoming critical moment in fueling where the mixture (because of ES) tends to be too lean in favor of air which causing pre-iginition. The optimal solution to avoid knocking involves a water cooling system, better fuel and a knocking sensor with an ECU setup to intervene with late ignition, among other adjustments.

Speaking of the knocking sensor, the 2024 V85TT is equipped with one. The reasons behind this choice are outlined in my discussion :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 07:40:33 AM by gregorm1503 »

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2024, 09:23:11 AM »
I couldn’t guess on the OP’s noise without hearing.
As far as the noise Greg has mentioned, that’s not up to you to diagnose it’s up to the MFG/dealer. That’s not in any way a dig on you but it is for MG and their dealers.
I read your links and another valve train issue for MG, 3 that I know of, but could be more.
Forums can offer information good or bad, but from what I’ve read here I would never buy a new MG.
I don’t know if MG monitors MG forums, if not, they should.

Offline Moparnut72

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2024, 10:00:40 AM »
I can make my V7lll knock but that is at low rpm with excess load due to major operator error. When I had my Harley and got stuck in non-moving traffic I shut the damn thing down or I might suffer burns on my right leg.  :grin:
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Offline gregorm1503

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Re: Clanging sound when accelerating
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2024, 01:08:34 AM »
I agree; it's up to MG to define and solve. I'm confident that in terms of definition, there's no doubt about what it is, as they are currently exploring the cause in my case.
I've thoroughly researched this issue, can confirm wider existence and since no solution can be found individually or through forums, I'm here to encourage other TT fellows to submit their cases to Piaggio. This collective effort will help them recognize that the problem still persists and provide a understanding of its scope.

Challenge is to proving knocking existance. They will not drive your bike in a manner to reproduce problem and you can ally only on your persuading skills (or collective data!). They will just look for error codes and there arent any.. You will start with additional valve setup or other $$ offers... and then you will continuing with forums...

In my case Piaggios initial assumption is that the ECU is well set up, and they are searching for other reasons why knocking persists. If they identify a hardware discrepancy, that's acceptable for me because im confident it will be solved/repaired (and im hoping that this will be package solution for others also). However, if not, they won't provide me with an individual ECU setup (no collective data available!) and will direct me to the warranty claim process.  They will rather adopting an "Ford Pinto" approach :grin: :laugh:

Additionally, with knocking conditions I'm not referring to some big traffic collapses but to daily commuting through the city and rush hours. The knocking issue of course also arises in some other scenarios, such as slow uphills or off-road situations with a few stops due to challenging terrain,... Nothing special, just regular and daily stuff where you warm engine a little bit more.

So, contact me for few directions if you are sure that you have knocking, you accepting it as an technical error and you can not live with it ... and its not you driving skills :)

Starting sounds to identify the case, with a bit warmer engine and within healthy rpms from 2.500 - 3.500:
https://youtube.com/shorts/d83BtkgNz64
From 19" frwrd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rjnvl0osIo&t=28s
« Last Edit: January 23, 2024, 03:18:56 AM by gregorm1503 »

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