Harley Davidson stock prices fall

[Ncdan]

This guy gets it!

I've been surrounded by Harley people my entire life...  The whole biker rally, Myrtle Beach confederate flag cruising with lame classic rock blaring, fake badass image, leather vest & fingerless gloves but no helmet, drunkenly doing burnouts with a cigarette hanging out of the mouth, throttle blipping & wallet chains, "If you can read this the bitch fell off" T-shirts, skulls & chrome and all the rest.... It's a bunch of dumb bullshit and people dont want to be associated with it.

That's my take at least.  Harley (and their fans to a greater extent) have presented this image as the Harley Lifestyle since at least the 70's...  "most people arent badass enough to ride a harley".. whelp, seems like most people are in agreement. 


EDIT: so that is to say, it doesnt matter to me what Harley makes, even the bikes I'm kinda interested in (such as the newer Roadsters or the XR1200 or the Livewire).... I would never buy a bike with HD on the tank because I dont want to be associated with that lifestyle...  And IMHO, the lifestyle IS the brand

The man on the bike sets the standard and not the badge on the tank. I’ve owned and ridden most of my miles on a Harley Electric Glide. I didn’t advertise for them, I’d didn’t own a leather vest, there was no chain attached to my wallet and I was no more a badass on the Harley than I am on my Guzzi:)

[rocker59]

Indian Motorcycles & Triumph Motorcycles come to mind.

Triumph is a little different from the other brand revivals.  John Bloor bought the Meriden Works in 1983 when it slipped into bankruptcy.  After his purchase, the old factory was shuttered and he started work on a new factory in Hinkley.  During that interim, Bonnevilles were still available, built under contract by Les Harris.

Every other revived brand has been liquidated for years, before the name brand being revived by a non-related entity.

I have to say, I applaud Polaris for their Indian revival.  They have done it right!  I wish more large companies would do similar with some of the great old moto brands.  It gets old watching some underfunded fly-by-nighters run good old-time name brands into the ground.

[Lannis]

 
  Many of you hate Harley and the riders.

Honestly, I don't think that's a fair statement.    Maybe you could quote a post that you believe indicates "Hatred" of HD motorcycles and/or their riders?

The term "hate" has almost lost any meaning in today's language.   It's too often used to describe the modern crime of "Noticing".    I can certainly "notice" characteristics of the majority of HD riders (uniforms, group riding results, etc) without "hating" anyone or anything.

Motorcycle riding is not done, by any of us, in a vacuum.   It's as much a social activity as it is a transportation activity.   On the road, you are constantly meeting people, talking to people, having people come up to you and ask questions; and the experience differs depending on what brand bike you are on.   It's just human nature, you can't really get away from it.   

Having owned and ridden 3 HD Big Twins, I know that the experiences of riding a Harley, a Guzzi, or an old Brit are different, and I've chosen which ones I like, just like I choose what eateries I go into ....

Lannis

[Charles in Lake Charles]

Over five years Harley stock has fallen almost exactly the same as Ford https://www.google.com/search?tbm=fin&ei=MQ07XeDiJYKusAWhg6iwBA&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgecRoyi3w8sc9YSmdSWtOXmNU4-IKzsgvd80rySypFJLgYoOy-KR4uLj0c_UNzKtyDUuKeQDZGs9vOgAAAA&q=NYSE%3A+HOG&oq=harley&gs_l=finance-immersive.1.0.81l3.1786.7054.0.11053.9.9.0.0.0.0.239.946.2j5j1.8.0....0...1c.1.64.finance-immersive..1.8.942.0...0.Ld9vBCZKTec#scso=_Pg07XbHDC4jysQXp6ZDoDA6:0&smids=/m/07zm0nx&wptab=COMPARE

[Rough Edge racing]

Honestly, I don't think that's a fair statement.    Maybe you could quote a post that you believe indicates "Hatred" of HD motorcycles and/or their riders?

The term "hate" has almost lost any meaning in today's language.   It's too often used to describe the modern crime of "Noticing".    I can certainly "notice" characteristics of the majority of HD riders (uniforms, group riding results, etc) without "hating" anyone or anything.

Motorcycle riding is not done, by any of us, in a vacuum.   It's as much a social activity as it is a transportation activity.   On the road, you are constantly meeting people, talking to people, having people come up to you and ask questions; and the experience differs depending on what brand bike you are on.   It's just human nature, you can't really get away from it.   


Having owned and ridden 3 HD Big Twins, I know that the experiences of riding a Harley, a Guzzi, or an old Brit are different, and I've chosen which ones I like, just like I choose what eateries I go into ....

Lannis

   
  From the Mayor of BBQ on this thread,
 

I've been surrounded by Harley people my entire life...  The whole biker rally, Myrtle Beach confederate flag cruising with lame classic rock blaring, fake badass image, leather vest & fingerless gloves but no helmet, drunkenly doing burnouts with a cigarette hanging out of the mouth, throttle blipping & wallet chains, "If you can read this the bitch fell off" T-shirts, skulls & chrome and all the rest.... It's a bunch of dumb bullshit and people dont want to be associated with it.

  We can mince words here, perhaps I should have said  "extreme dislike" but his statement speaks for it's self...however, He is allowed to voice his opinion just like the rest of us ...

[rocker59]

Motorcycle riding is not done, by any of us, in a vacuum.   It's as much a social activity as it is a transportation activity.   On the road, you are constantly meeting people, talking to people, having people come up to you and ask questions; and the experience differs depending on what brand bike you are on.   It's just human nature, you can't really get away from it.   

Having owned and ridden 3 HD Big Twins, I know that the experiences of riding a Harley, a Guzzi, or an old Brit are different, and I've chosen which ones I like, just like I choose what eateries I go into ....

Lannis

I almost dreaded stopping for gas sometimes when I had my 1998 Triumph Sprint Executive.  With its bold "Triumph" script on the tank, it would attract attention at every gas stop.  I used to joke that if every old man that said he had a '68 Bonneville really did have an old Bonneville, the Hinkley Works would've never slipped into bankruptcy!

Agreed, having owned 2 Harleys, 1 BMW, 1 Triumph, 1 Ducati, and 7 Guzzis, the experiences are different.

[Sykestone8886]

I've owned many HD's over the years currently still have three including a couple vintage. They have been very reliable and have many good memories touring out west. The thing that really gets to me now is these guys with super obnoxious loud exhaust and louder yet sterios that have no respect for anyone else. I told a young kid the other day at a gas stop that was drawing quite a few angry stares with his loud pipes, that your not helping the motorcycling image any. Your the kind that brings on more regulations. He respectfully said I never gave that a thought and drive away at a nice mellow pace. Lately I've been just cruising around on my v7, quite relaxing !!!

[Lannis]

   
  From the Mayor of BBQ on this thread,

I've been surrounded by Harley people my entire life...  The whole biker rally, Myrtle Beach confederate flag cruising with lame classic rock blaring, fake badass image, leather vest & fingerless gloves but no helmet, drunkenly doing burnouts with a cigarette hanging out of the mouth, throttle blipping & wallet chains, "If you can read this the bitch fell off" T-shirts, skulls & chrome and all the rest.... It's a bunch of dumb bullshit and people dont want to be associated with it.

We can mince words here, perhaps I should have said  "extreme dislike" but his statement speaks for it's self...however, He is allowed to voice his opinion just like the rest of us ...

Thanks.   But here's what I mean.   If I go to any beach during a "Bike Week", or if you do, you'll see EXACTLY what has been described above, the only judgment call being "lame" on the classic music; maybe it's not lame.   But the rest of the description, including "drunken" is perfectly accurate as far as what is actually happening in reality as well as the "tone" of the event.   

It's also a fact that many people don't want to be associated with it, so that's also a statement of fact.

So now we're down to what's your opinion of what's going on there, from your own desire/undesire to be associated with it and its trappings, to the impression it leaves on the larger public as to what "motorcycling" is all about.

I think it's silly, I think its derogatory to our whole sport, I think it hurts us all a little bit in peoples' attitude towards us on the road.    I don't object to "dumb bullsh!t" as a summary; however, that's a long way from "Hatred" of the HD brand or the people that I meet on them on the road, whether you use a euphemism like "extreme dislike" for "hate" or not.   Maybe that's just me, though.

Lannis

[Kev m]

Yesterday morning felt like a smallblock morning.



But this morning felt like a big block morning:



A lot of the same roads, two very different experiences. Both pretty awesome. Very glad to have both in the fleet.

Ya know I was thinking one thing on the RK today. I (and many) talk a lot of about the size of the FLH Harleys, and that's for good reason, they're BIG. But before I bought this one I spent a number of years riding every big classic touring bike that interested me and something occurred to me on this morning's ride.

After riding the Victory tourers, the Cali 1400, the Indian tourers (all versions with windshields instead of fairings) and even the Triumph RIII ONE of the reasons I bought the RK is the rest were TOO BIG.

I know, you're saying wait a minute the Cali weighs less, and it does, and it's ALMOST the same length as the RK, but it's got 3 inches more wheelbase, is wider at the tank, and it has a stupid fat rear tire. The impression I get from the saddle of the Cali is of a bike that has even more ponderous a mass than it does.

And the Vic and Indians, forget about it - they were up to a full FOOT longer than the RK, with 2-4" more wheelbase, and bulbous tanks and just mass - mass - mass.

Anyway, I don't know what the future holds for Harley or Guzzi or Triumph, or .... but I hope they all keep producing great bikes.

Certainly I think the new Softail line was a real step in the right direction for Harley. I hope they get their entry level bikes sorted and that they don't screw the pooch with the new water-cooled stuff. Time will tell.

[LowRyter]

Harley mirrors the rest of the motorcycle business.   We're still in hangover from the credit boom and bust of '08.  The younger folks have never gotten those years of buying power back since.  They've lost the window on interest in motorcycles and moved on.   They're focussing on necessities, building a nest egg, moving to urban areas, and not interested in frivolous purchases and have come to terms with an austere lifestyle and urban living.  Until wages and opportunity improve, we'll see this continue to happen for other expensive hobbies through successive generations.

[roadscum]

…..
…


Certainly I think the new Softail line was a real step in the right direction for Harley. .

Kev and I are like thinkers on this one. In the late 90's I owned two RK's,  took one across country twice. It worked well for my touring needs, they worked better for me then the '04 RG I owned for a few years. Now shopping new Softail Deluxe. It's end of model year and the local dealers, with a little arm twisting, are offering great deals.  Think about that Kev...….

Never bonded with the look of the Guzzi 1400's. the cylinders poking through the tank pokes me in the eye.
My Scout is a far better bike then I/ expected and hands down my V7 III brings the biggest smile to my face. 

Paul

[Ncdan]

This picture says it all to me. A great day of riding with my son and we both rode
Both the HD and the CalVin and both loved every mile on both. Personally I really don’t care about  ones opinion of either of the great iconic machines it’s all about the ride and fellowship and not the brand. God bless America and Harley Davidson:)

 

[rocker59]

This picture says it all to me. A great day of riding with my son and we both rode
Both the HD and the 1400 and both loved every mile on both. Personally I really don’t care about  ones opinion of either of the great iconic machines it’s all about the ride and fellowship and not the brand. God bless America and Harley Davidson:)

Not seeing a 1400 in the pic, but that's a nice looking CalVin.

[oldbike54]

 My nephew the Harley salesman isn't anymore , after 10 years he decided to give it up . My older sister who is his MIL asked if he was gonna need an entire new wardrobe 

 Dusty

[MGrego]

Not long ago my riding buddies and I went out on 3 different brands, a Harley, an Indian, and a Guzzi.  Great fun ! 

--- We don't get hung up on the "brand", we just enjoy the riding experience and leave the cliche behind...

[Lannis]

Not long ago my riding buddies and I went out on 3 different brands, a Harley, an Indian, and a Guzzi.  Great fun ! 

--- We don't get hung up on the "brand", we just enjoy the riding experience and leave the cliche behind...

Well, of course friends and fellow riders don't get hung up on the brand.

It's all them other millions of folks out on the roads .... !

Lannis

[Ncdan]

Not seeing a 1400 in the pic, but that's a nice looking CalVin.

Thanks for the correction Rocker, I pulled up the wrong priceless moment. That was taken when I had the Calvin but we do have the same Harley and the same son:)

[LowRyter]

Not long ago my riding buddies and I went out on 3 different brands, a Harley, an Indian, and a Guzzi.  Great fun ! 

--- We don't get hung up on the "brand", we just enjoy the riding experience and leave the cliche behind...

pretty easy to say when you're on a V11 Sport and everyone else is on a cruiser........    

I am sure the other guys feel a little jealous.   

[twowheeladdict]

Sold my HD stock years ago when I saw they were running out of Old Fat guys to pander to...
Owning and riding 14 HD's led me to happily owning a Victory Cross Country Tour.

How do you run out of old fat guys?  People just not living as long these days?  Or are they living healthier and not as fat?   

I was up in the VA / WV hills riding the Snake, the Back of the Dragon, and other named roads in an effort to bring in tourist dollars this past week.  I was on my Road Glide and 98 percent of the bikes out there were Harley Davidsons.  I was surprised to not see sport bikes on those type of roads.

I am at the tail end of the baby boomers being in my mid 50s, but there were guys in this group I was riding with who were in their 70s and 80s are were not riding slow.  I was amazed.  My Dad is in his early 80s and doesn't get around very well.  I would have never guessed these guys were the ages they told me. 

[twowheeladdict]

I think this article has good data - motorcycle sales over roughly the last decade have been roughly the same (slightly higher) than sales in the 1990s.  There was a bubble in between, and some people thought the bubble would last forever.

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2018/02/12/motorcycle-sales-patterns-explained-sky-not-falling/

Of course that is NEW motorcycle sales.  Used motorcycle sales are going strong.  Dealers actually like when I trade in two used ones on a new one.  Now they have two bikes to make profit on.   

[twowheeladdict]

Harley mirrors the rest of the motorcycle business.   We're still in hangover from the credit boom and bust of '08.  The younger folks have never gotten those years of buying power back since.  They've lost the window on interest in motorcycles and moved on.   They're focussing on necessities, building a nest egg, moving to urban areas, and not interested in frivolous purchases and have come to terms with an austere lifestyle and urban living.  Until wages and opportunity improve, we'll see this continue to happen for other expensive hobbies through successive generations.

Where do you come up with this stuff?  I am shaking my head right now.  Where do you live where young people want to move to the city where for the same money that would buy a 3 bedroom home, they can now buy a studio apartment?  I have not seen or heard of anyone telling me their kid moved to a city. 

[redrider90]

When the big dogs in the company are unloading their stock it ain't good.
HOG has lost 50% of its market price since 2014 which was 6 years after the recovery from the recession. It was $70/share Nov 1,2014 and has a steady decline 5 straight years.

From Gurufocus.com July 25
CFO Recent Trades:

    SVP & CFO John A Olin sold 30,000 shares of HOG stock on 07/24/2019 at the average price of $35.96. The price of the stock has decreased by 1.08% since.
Link to Motley Fool podcast about HD https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-harley-davidson-apos-q2-172416475.html


Directors and Officers Recent Trades:

    President-HDFS Lawrence G Hund sold 13,073 shares of HOG stock on 07/24/2019 at the average price of $35.57. The price of the stock has decreased by 0% since.
    Chief Accounting Officer Mark R Kornetzke sold 3,626 shares of HOG stock on 07/24/2019 at the average price of $35.79. The price of the stock has decreased by 0.61% since.
    VP & Chief Legal Officer Paul J Jones sold 11,884 shares of HOG stock on 07/24/2019 at the average price of $35.15. The price of the stock has increased by 1.19% since.

[rocker59]

Where do you come up with this stuff?  I am shaking my head right now.  Where do you live where young people want to move to the city where for the same money that would buy a 3 bedroom home, they can now buy a studio apartment?  I have not seen or heard of anyone telling me their kid moved to a city.

Where do you live that the kids don't leave the small towns for the big cities?  Here in flyover country, the small towns' median ages are older than Guzzi riders' median ages are !!!  The kids go off to college and never come back.  It's been going on for decades, and only accelerating.

[twowheeladdict]

Where do you live that the kids don't leave the small towns for the big cities?  Here in flyover country, the small towns' median ages are older than Guzzi riders' median ages are !!!  The kids go off to college and never come back.  It's been going on for decades, and only accelerating.

I guess I live where there are jobs and folks don't mind commuting an hour to work because their isn't much traffic.  30 miles south of me is Huntsville, Al which is no big city but has 10s of thousands of tech and manufacturing jobs.  Don't know of anyone moving to Atlanta for the Urban culture. 

[blu guzz]

2wheel and Lowryter:

I have lived in the Washington D.C. Suburbs and presently just south of Cincinnati, Ohio.  In Washington, young people could not afford to move into the city.  Here in Cincinnati, with the low cost of living, there is a boom of young, educated or good earning young people buying or renting city properties and rehabing.  Every corner seems to have a micro brewery.  Old neighborhoods are coming back in different form.  Scooters are cool.  One or zero cars are cool.  Record stores are back.  We have a house full of furniture that we have no idea who it will go to because our 3(30 somethings) kids are living small.  Big suburban houses with large yards are not as cool as they once were.  Not that they will ever die on the vine, but it is not the goal of a large part of the 35 and under crowd. 
I am not giving an opinion about who is correct, but just reporting my observations.

[LowRyter]

Where do you come up with this stuff?  I am shaking my head right now.  Where do you live where young people want to move to the city where for the same money that would buy a 3 bedroom home, they can now buy a studio apartment?  I have not seen or heard of anyone telling me their kid moved to a city.

I don't know what anyone told you.  The cities are growing and the rural areas are shrinking.  That's where the jobs are.  For now the suburbs are holding their own.  Look it up.

None of which was central to my point: that because of the hangover for last recession, young folks have diminished buying power and are trying to build up their wealth and independence, so the motorcycle bug was never caught and the widow passed them by; however, those in that generation with an interest have gravitated to used (cheap) bikes and BRAT-ing them out.  Likewise, baby boomer values, like marriage, family and home ownership have declined as well.  Ten years is a lot of time to catch up when you're starting out regardless of where you live. 

Is that the only reason?  I am not saying that.  But is it a big factor?

[LowRyter]

I guess I live where there are jobs and folks don't mind commuting an hour to work because their isn't much traffic.  30 miles south of me is Huntsville, Al which is no big city but has 10s of thousands of tech and manufacturing jobs.  Don't know of anyone moving to Atlanta for the Urban culture.

Huntsville is rocket town USA.  And my point had much more to do with economics rather than geography. 

Give me a break!

[LowRyter]

2wheel and Lowryter:

I have lived in the Washington D.C. Suburbs and presently just south of Cincinnati, Ohio.  In Washington, young people could not afford to move into the city.  Here in Cincinnati, with the low cost of living, there is a boom of young, educated or good earning young people buying or renting city properties and rehabing.  Every corner seems to have a micro brewery.  Old neighborhoods are coming back in different form.  Scooters are cool.  One or zero cars are cool.  Record stores are back.  We have a house full of furniture that we have no idea who it will go to because our 3(30 somethings) kids are living small.  Big suburban houses with large yards are not as cool as they once were.  Not that they will ever die on the vine, but it is not the goal of a large part of the 35 and under crowd. 
I am not giving an opinion about who is correct, but just reporting my observations.

I can say the same about Okla City and Tulsa.  Scooters, Brat-bikes, singles well into their 30s.  That was where I was going with it.

[Tusayan]

Young people are as always matching what is ‘cool’ to them, now, with what they can afford.  Property appreciation as much as double inflation (for decades) has pushed the affordable entry level home down to high density housing.  When more property appreciation gives apartment owning young people equity, even at inflation level, they’ll be looking around for what they can do with it and creating a new cool for them, then.  This is a good thing for those of us already older and higher on the property ladder - homes with land within commuting distance of desirable jobs will not become any less attractive to people with equity in a downtown apartment who no longer like the noise and people living on their doorstep (literally).

If you want to hedge your bet with another shorter term market segment, make it a single story house with low maintenance property because that’s what aging boomers want right now.

[LowRyter]

I am with you Tusayan.  BTW- one story, small yard, retired...... with ya.  Decided on one story when I slipped down the stairs holding my 6 month first born in my arms in the tri-level rent house.