Question about battery issue

[cee2cee]

Bike is a 2007 Breva 750 with a 6 month old YUSA battery.  This past weekend when trying to start the bike after about an hour stop, it cranked over very slowly.  Had to stop about 5 minutes later and it would not start, just some clicking.  Pushed the bike to get it started and drove home.  Got home and turn her off then back on and she fired up.  Put her on the battery tender and didn't take long for the green light to come on.  Thought that was the only issue as I don't regularly keep her attached to the battery tender.  Started her up again, no problem, waited 5 mins and restarted and she cranked slowly, as though the battery was dying.  Ok so I got the voltage meter on and here is what I got.

Key off - 12.61
Key on - 12.34
Key on/Switch on - 12.27
Start switch pushed - 7.00 / once started - 12.60
Engine rev'd - 13.20

Any ideas on what is the issue? 

[canuguzzi]

Battery is shot. Check or an electrical drain.

It your electrical system is good and you don't have any drains whilst the bike is shutdown, return the battery for a new one.

You might have other issues but the battery is toast.

[Wayne Orwig]

Go out for a ride, THEN check the voltage with it reved up. It should get close to, or over 14 volts if the charging system is in good shape.
7 volts while cranking is not good. If that was directly on the battery terminals, and the Battery Tender says it was fully charged, then the battery is probably bad.
Do you trust the Battery Tender? I don't trust them myself. Measure the voltage during charging.

Obviously check and clean all of the battery connections, but I think you need to get a battery, AFTER you verify the charging system and charger are good.

[canuguzzi]

Don't fall for the "load test", no matter what the prob was, battery is now unreliable. Load tests are often used to get you to " give er nother try" after which you, not they are the one sitting somewhere with a dead battery.

Make sure to check for parasitic loads such as extra lights, any nodded wiring and such. Correct as needed.

Then, forget battery tenders, they aren't good chargers and designed to trickle charge usually. Get a high quality 3 stage charger, something that works with most battery types, flooded, AGM and so on. It will pay for itself.  If you store you bike during winter or long vacations ( but how is a long vacation a vacation without riding?) , hook the battery up to the charger once a quarter, you don't need to charge it every month or keep it hooked up to a tender continually. ( for AGMs)

If you want, check the battery once a month when stored for peace of mind.

If you make lots of short trips where you're starting the bike often but not riding it for more than a couple miles, once in a while hook it up to the 3 stage charger and let the charger do its thing. With everything else in good condition, you won't have battery problems other than when it finally gives up the ghost.

[cee2cee]

Just some clarification...I rarely use the battery tender and I ride year round.  When i had the problem i thought perhaps since i didn't ride much over the Christmas holiday it need a bit of a charge. 

Norge Pilot, when you say "check for parasitic loads such as extra lights.." can you explain to this novice how to do that?  I do have a set of driving lights but they are on a switch which is 'off'.  Is there some other way to determine if the battery is being drained, or should i just chuck it and get a new one and not waste anymore time alongside the road?   

[canuguzzi]

We're all novices, just as various stages of learning. ;)

You need a new battery, almost certainly. I'd do it.

PM'd you.

[bmc5733946]

My 2004 Breva 750 has spent its life on a Battery Tender (note the caps, meaning Battery Tender brand) and is still on its original battery an Odyssey AGM battery.  Right now in my garage there are six Battery Tenders running!  All of the small Brevas have a parasitic drain from their computerized dash, it will drain the battery in about two weeks of not running.  This business of a once discharged battery being used up and not worth recharging is nonsense (imho).  I have been around the battery business for a long time and I have listened to this misinformation forever, what a crock!  Batteries are meant to take some discharge.  Charging systems are not discharged battery chargers, battery chargers are.  If your battery is discharged please use a battery charger to restore its charge.  Batteries that are completely discharged may be successfully recharged in many cases and go on to lead long and successful lives.  Repeated fully discharging non deep cycle type batteries is not good for them but most motorcycle batteries can survive a discharge or two.  I think the OP should have his starting circuits checked out, there are other things that can mimic a discharged battery including loose and or corroded connections.  YMMV and all that nonsense!

Brian

[Vagrant]

being the lucky Bastard I am, I went to fill up the 2012 Gold wing in Ga. last week with fresh fuel and stabilizer before leaving for Az. for the winter. 3 1/2 year old stock Yusa on an Oddesy tender for the past 2 months while hunting. I heard a snap when I went to start it and that was it 10.5 volts now.
when I got to Az and went to fire up the EV yesterday that had been on a battery tender brand unit since June it was at 11 volts and hardly a click. 4 1/2 years old from a car parts store when the last one went bad at a mickey d's. Both were AGM.
at least you should get some warranty. all newer batteries seem to suck compared to the old lead acid ones that only leaked on your pretty bike.

[canuguzzi]

My 2004 Breva 750 has spent its life on a Battery Tender (note the caps, meaning Battery Tender brand) and is still on its original battery an Odyssey AGM battery.  Right now in my garage there are six Battery Tenders running!  All of the small Brevas have a parasitic drain from their computerized dash, it will drain the battery in about two weeks of not running.  This business of a once discharged battery being used up and not worth recharging is nonsense (imho).  I have been around the battery business for a long time and I have listened to this misinformation forever, what a crock!  Batteries are meant to take some discharge.  Charging systems are not discharged battery chargers, battery chargers are.  If your battery is discharged please use a battery charger to restore its charge.  Batteries that are completely discharged may be successfully recharged in many cases and go on to lead long and successful lives.  Repeated fully discharging non deep cycle type batteries is not good for them but most motorcycle batteries can survive a discharge or two.  I think the OP should have his starting circuits checked out, there are other things that can mimic a discharged battery including loose and or corroded connections.  YMMV and all that nonsense!

Brian

If your ECU drains your battery in 2 weeks, there is something wrong. The small Brevas aren't the only bikes with computerized dash and small parasitic drains. 2 weeks without riding drains the battery? Sorry, something is wrong and the battery tender is just masking the problem.

Yes, batteries are designed to take some discharge, that is the point of having one, to store energy for use later on. Some batteries are even designed to accept a deep depth of discharge. With each deep discharge, the battery becomes less and less reliable. If you have a battery bank, that is one thing, when you have one battery, quite another.

A battery that is completely dead is unreliable from that point on. I guess "reliable" is open to interpretation.

Lots of people keep batteries on tenders. More than that do not.

You have a good experience using a battery tender and for you, a completely discharged battery is no big deal, charge it up and continue to use it. Ok then, does the OP call you when he is stuck with that battery that was completely discharged and brought back to life?

Its one thing if you don't need to depend on the battery because it will be a minor inconvenience to swap it out with one of many you have sitting there. It is quite another when you need to depend on it. Two different scenarios, two different needs.

I agree 100%, if you have a bunch of batteries sitting there and you just need to pluck one off the shelf, by all means, have at it. Still, you do not need a battery tender. If you need a battery tender you are throwing away your money, just get a battery when you need it because a battery sitting on a tender is slowly going dead no matter what you do to it, it has a finite life.

If you have one bike or even several and each has just the battery in it and you need to depend on it, then continuing to use it after it has gone dead and thinking it is good to do  is one reason why towing services make money.

[bmc5733946]

I don't know everything about batteries but I do know that batteries can be discharged and recharged and that every battery manufacturers service instruction I have ever seen says so, giving instructions on recharging.  I have been a mechanic for more than forty years and have run a battery room for a major retailer and I have been trained to recharge batteries by the people who make them   I've probably recharged over one thousand batteries in my career.  I guess I've been doing it all wrong.  The small Brevas all have avery high parasitic draw that is even noted in the owners manual suggesting that the battery be disconnected for storage.  If I must, I could go out and measure that draw on my bike, I have measured it before.  I'm not here to argue!  I know what I know and what I've been taught.  I don't have an advanced degree in physics or electrical engineering.  I do have a Associates Degree in Automotive Techonolgy.  The practices I have described are common knowledge in my field and have been for a long time.  Again YMMV!  I do not believe, based on what was described that the OP has a battery problem, I could well be wrong.

Brian

[acogoff]

     A poor battery does not just come alive again as stated in your original post. Before springing for a new battery make sure all battery connections are squeeky clean and the other end of the batt wires too.

[canuguzzi]

I don't know everything about batteries but I do know that batteries can be discharged and recharged and that every battery manufacturers service instruction I have ever seen says so, giving instructions on recharging.  I have been a mechanic for more than forty years and have run a battery room for a major retailer and I have been trained to recharge batteries by the people who make them   I've probably recharged over one thousand batteries in my career.  I guess I've been doing it all wrong.  The small Brevas all have avery high parasitic draw that is even noted in the owners manual suggesting that the battery be disconnected for storage.  If I must, I could go out and measure that draw on my bike, I have measured it before.  I'm not here to argue!  I know what I know and what I've been taught.  I don't have an advanced degree in physics or electrical engineering.  I do have a Associates Degree in Automotive Techonolgy.  The practices I have described are common knowledge in my field and have been for a long time.  Again YMMV!  I do not believe, based on what was described that the OP has a battery problem, I could well be wrong.

Brian

We do not disagree. My position has always been that once a battery is fully discharged, one is better off getting a replacement battery if they need to rely on that battery for more than casual use.

Given that the OPs battery goes dead so quickly, I just see little benefit in trying to ressurect it IF it needs to be relied upon and I mean more than a run to the store now and then. Batteries cost about as much as a fluids and lube change, all of which we do probably annually. A new battery is cheap compared to getting stranded if you're on a trip.

No disagreement with what works for you.

[Wayne Orwig]

Key off - 12.61
Key on - 12.34
Key on/Switch on - 12.27
Start switch pushed - 7.00 / once started - 12.60
Engine rev'd - 13.20

Any ideas on what is the issue?

Another thought.
Bad starter.

It used to be common for a magnet to come loose inside the starter. The occasional extra drag on the starter could lead to no starts and low battery voltage when cranking it. It would even start just fine when you jump started it because of the extra available power. Everyone easily concluded to was a weak battery because of the symptoms. The glue for the magnets was improved long ago and we don't hear about it too often now.

Hard to detect without disassembling the starter to inspect it.

[George_S]

Check and double check the battery terminals for tightness and any hidden corrosion.

Last year I bought an '09 Piaggio MP3 that was a multi year leftover, first put in service on '13 or '14.
( Very common with those. Piaggio had many more imported than sold and they were in a warehouse )

So when my battery was giving me a bit slow cranking, I decided that the battery was probably old and ordered a new one and guess what?  I'm ashamed to admit that when I went to install it I found the + terminal loose on the old one on the bike. I changed it anyway, but the old one tests fine, something like 14.30 volts with no load. I was just so convinced the battery was old and needed replacement I didn't even look at it first.

[LaMojo]

7 volts under starter load is pretty low.  Should be around 10 V +/-  depending on temperature,  compression, and of course, a healthy battery capacity and starter.  May be as simple as having a good ground connection.  Check the bolts on the starter to the bell housing and the battery neg. path.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Bike is a 2007 Breva 750 with a 6 month old YUSA battery.  This past weekend when trying to start the bike after about an hour stop, it cranked over very slowly.  Had to stop about 5 minutes later and it would not start, just some clicking.  Pushed the bike to get it started and drove home.  Got home and turn her off then back on and she fired up.  Put her on the battery tender and didn't take long for the green light to come on.  Thought that was the only issue as I don't regularly keep her attached to the battery tender.  Started her up again, no problem, waited 5 mins and restarted and she cranked slowly, as though the battery was dying.  Ok so I got the voltage meter on and here is what I got.

Key off - 12.61
Key on - 12.34
Key on/Switch on - 12.27
Start switch pushed - 7.00 / once started - 12.60
Engine rev'd - 13.20

Any ideas on what is the issue?

What you describe could easily be a bad battery connection.
When you are measuring the battery Voltage while cranking are you measuring 7 Volts right on the battery terminals? (I mean the lead posts, not the wire lugs)
Battery maintenance 101
Scrape the terminals clean and apply some Vaseline to prevent lead oxide forming to disconnect the battery.

Another test is to measure the Voltage between the battery Negative terminal and chassis while cranking, this will tell you the state of the ground connection. (LaMojo just beat me to it)
The Valeo starters are also known to shed a magnet which tends to gum up the works.

[redrider]

Your at rest voltage should be higher. You have 6 cells at 2.34 VDC/cell for a total of 14.04 volts. If your connections are clean an secure, measure the system output at 4000. You should have 14 volts across the terminals. Anything above 13 should be ok while running and recharging the battery. Common automotive terminology calls them 12 volt systems but they are actually 14 volt.
I worked for a forklift battery company and any cell that was down to 2 VDC/cell was considered discharged. So for 6 cells, your 12 volts is weak. Why are military aircraft DC systems 28 volt? Because two batteries in series = 28 volts, not 24.

Was your Yuasa dry when purchased? Who knows how long batteries sit on the shelf in a warehouse, filled with electrolyte. Sulphation and inter-cell connector erosion set in and one day, crackle and pop. If the battery is filled when purchased, was it left to rest for an hour before charging? If not, dry areas on the individual plates will occur and low voltage is the result. Exide used to be a good company before the move to Mexico. Plates missing, leaking cells...

[Sasquatch Jim]

  To check for parasitic drain is simple.  Disconnect the ground at the battery.  With the key off and removed,
 do a voltmeter test between the ground strap and the battery terminal it was disconnected from.  It should read zero volts.
 If it reads any voltage at all there is a parasitic drain somewhere in the system.  It could be something that is there deliberately like a clock or some other instrument.  If you have such on your machine, disconnect it and test again.
 You should read zero volts.  Any reading of voltage at all indicates there is something wrong and you have a parasitic drain.
 If you cannot find the drain, you should take it to a COMPETENT expert.

[Wayne Orwig]

  To check for parasitic drain is simple.  Disconnect the ground at the battery.  With the key off and removed,
 do a voltmeter test between the ground strap and the battery terminal it was disconnected from.  It should read zero volts.
 If it reads any voltage at all there is a parasitic drain somewhere in the system.

How many ohms per volt would you recommend that the meter be for this test?

[drlapo]

My BMW R80 had an intermittent charging problem that I traced to a corroded connector on the positive side of the starter motor
The connection, on the stud, was tight but 30 years of corrosion was preventing a full charge to the battery
Once that was fixed it was time for a new battery
I bought a genuine BMW battery but it only lasted a couple of weeks.  The dealer tested it and declared it dead: it had a dead cell.  I was given a replacement battery but it wouldn't hold a charge: it had a dead cell too.
So 2 batteries from the same lot were bad
The replacement has been holding up so far
Shit happens

[mtiberio]

when batteries behave as you describe, sometimes I attribute it to a broken plate. Replace it.

[Doppelgaenger]

My bet is that you have a dead cell, and likely more than one. The clicking when you press the starter is a dead giveaway that the battery doesn't have the juice to turn the starter over, and a battery that dies within 5 minutes of being placed on a charger is also a bad sign. The fact that you charge within 5 minutes from uncharged is another sign that your battery no longer has any real capacity. It's like a glass that is 3/4s full with a sponge, you can pour water in, but you're not getting most of it back when you try to pour it out.

I was going to say that you need to check your charging system first, but the fact that it dies within 5 mintues is an absolute dead giveaway that the battery is bad.

I recently had the battery in my Breva 1100 go bad. First it didn't start the bike. I took it to a dealer and they put it on the charger, and the battery was sufated. I should have known better than to think that de-sulfating would help me. I got the battery back and it would last a few days on the bike before it died. I charged it by hooking it up to the car a few times since I didn't have a charger at home, that may have done more harm than good. After about 3 weeks the battery wouldn't start the bike anymore no matter what the voltage said (13.4) after I disconnected it from the car.

If you have doubts about a battery, replace it. If you're not broke or worried about money, just do it. It'll fail sooner than later, usually when you're nowhere you want to be with a dead battery.

If you have the money, I'd recommend going with one of the new lithium batteries. If you wonder why, go to your nearest cycle gear and ask to see one. Pick it up and ask yourself if your bike could stand to lose the 20 pounds. The weight difference is amazing. They also last longer than lead acid so in the end you're paying less dollars per cycle, kinda how Pilot Road 4s are more expensive than the alternative, but they last so long you pay less per mile in the end. One thing though, you can't charge a lithium battery with a battery charger that can desulfate, and they sell trickle chargers for lithium batteries, which I'm not sure are necessary.

Just to be clear, Lithium batteries are twice the price of lead acid. They also behave differently in the cold. They have more cranking amps after the second or third try as they heat up internally, whereas with a lead acid the first crank gives you to most amps you'll ever get.

[krglorioso]

What Brian said about Battery Tenders.  I have six of them, also, and all our vehicles are connected when not in use.  My 03 Stone has its original battery, which was put into service when the bike first sold in early 2006.  Each of my two Stone Touring models is fitted with a digital voltmeter and standard cruising voltage is 13.7v.   

Ralph

[Scott DeRoss]

when batteries behave as you describe, sometimes I attribute it to a broken plate. Replace it.

One bad cell in the battery

[Kiwi_Roy]

when batteries behave as you describe, sometimes I attribute it to a broken plate. Replace it.

For sure it's got a broken connection, but where?
Could be the battery
Could be a bad connection at the positive terminal,
Could be a bad connection at the negative terminal
Could be a bad main ground
Could be the terminal on the solenoid
Could be the starter is pulling too much current due to a lost magnet

Could be you buy a new battery and it still won't work, what then?

That's why we have a multimeter
Measure the battery Voltage while trying to crank, right across the battery terminals, not the lugs.