V7 power bump

[charlie b]

It is all just a matter of money.  You can do anything you like.  Cams. Head porting. Have custom heads made.  Even turbocharge or supercharge it.  Bigger engine.

The real question is, how much money for how much hp are you willing to spend?  Is $2000 for an extra 10hp worth it?  Or do you want 20hp for that much?

If you can source a drone engine and install it, then just about anything is possible.  Stuff a big block 8V in there.

Sorry for the diversion.  It is an exercise I have found myself doing with a number of motor vehicles over the years.  Most of the time I have found that spending thousands for a 10-20% increase in power is useless.  Cause you end up wanting more.  By the time you are done you could have bought a more powerful vehicle for less money in the first place.

[kevdog3019]

If all you're looking for is more horses, then it's a waste of money to dump your hard earned money into these upgrades.  The reason I decided to dump money into mine was because I knew the Lario engine was a flash in the pan for Guzzi (literally) and felt there was more character to be had as well as reliability with top-notch parts around.  I also lived with one for a few years and knew what I wanted and where I wanted it.  So... an experiment of sorts and a way to make an engine (and bike) mine without worrying about horses in the end.  I ended up getting more than I expected as a whole so it all worked out beautifully, but if you figure dyno numbers into the equation and that's your end-game, it wasn't exactly cheap or remarkable.  I wouldn't trade it for ANY engine as it's still a Guzzi, but one that works and feels exactly how I imagined it might.  So... have at it, but do it for reasons that are attainable.

[tiger_one]

You've found a source for the drone engines??

 

[canuguzzi]

This will work to get the V7 going faster, guaranteed.

Follow all the instructions for a colonoscopy prep. Following the last blast, wait a few hours and with a gel seat or maybe an AirHawk or something like that, go for a ride. At about the 30 mile marker turn back, for a number of reasons.

That V7 will probably go faster than you've ever ridden it before. A lighter load = a faster bike.

[pyoungbl]

Power from a V7....well, let's look at some figures from actual dyno runs (not seat of the pants or 'my cousin says').  The stock bike puts out 39.57 hp at the rear wheel.  Re-flashed it jumps up to .....41.86 hp.  The engine "feels" better but the numbers don't lie.  Torque stayed virtually the same, 39.26/39.04.  Same dyno, same operator.  Unless you do significant work on the head you are wasting money on different exhaust or air cleaners, in fact a case can be made that messing with the airbox will really screw things up.  I don't have numbers on that opinion.  The stock Heron head is the limiting factor.  Get the head ported and see a claimed 14% improvement in airflow.  Wow, that might give 4-5 whole horsepower (very optimistic).  Punch it out to 830cc or install Lario 4 valve heads, either option is going to be very expensive.  I doubt you get 60 RWHP.  I'd recommend spending a lot less money to upgrade the marginal suspension and thus go faster with less drama.

Peter Y.

[redrider]

The only real change you can make affects torque and where the peak figure occurs. The previous example of nearly identical torque figures show this. Make the same torque 1000 rpm higher and the horsepower number goes up. The output of the engine has not changed. Stop with the HP fascination. It's the "Mine is bigger than yours" man-trap. No wonder some factories do not publish HP although they readily cite torque figures. HP=TxRPM/5252.

[tonUPRacer]

I get what everyone is saying about not worth the time, money effort etc. but this guy wanted to know if there was a kit. Well, there is a kit, in fact maybe 2, so why not let the guy go ahead and spend his money if he wants to chase a few HP. It's his bike, his money, he has been duly warned that he's being silly and he should buy a different bike. He may want to do it, just to do it. Humans are funny that way.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hmm, Chrome quit recognizing the emoticons again so I can't quote him,  but pyoungbl pretty much has it nailed. Unless you are willing to experiment and spend a *lot* of money, the Heron small block isn't going to make a whole lot of power. That's not to say it isn't a fun engine to operate. Just don't expect to run away from a more "modern" 750 with it. The bike makes plenty of power to keep you in contention in the twistys, however,  it just needs better suspension to do it.

[rodekyll]

Without passing judgment on the question (I don't own a SB) I'll just say that I do things all the time just to see what will happen.  The only person I need to please is the guy paying for it.  The OP has asked a reasonable question prior to doing anything.  IMO this is the right way to start.  Only he can sort out the answers and decide if it's worth perusing. 

However, if it was my rig, given the answers, I'd look for some other problem to spend my $$$$ on.

$0.02

[Chuck in Indiana]

I get what everyone is saying about not worth the time, money effort etc. but this guy wanted to know if there was a kit. Well, there is a kit, in fact maybe 2, so why not let the guy go ahead and spend his money if he wants to chase a few HP. It's his bike, his money, he has been duly warned that he's being silly and he should buy a different bike. He may want to do it, just to do it. Humans are funny that way.

True. Todd@Guzzitech is almost ready to release his 820cc 4 valve kit. He told me that it's "not my cup of tea. but people in SoCal are loving the V7 and want more horsepower." <shrug> Are you listening, Mother Goose?? Probably not....
Actually, I can emphasize. I was out on the AeroLario again today with a seriously big grin in my helmet. More hp= more betta. :)

[tiger_one]

^^^^  This!

[kevdog3019]

Without passing judgment on the question (I don't own a SB) I'll just say that I do things all the time just to see what will happen.  The only person I need to please is the guy paying for it.  The OP has asked a reasonable question prior to doing anything.  IMO this is the right way to start.  Only he can sort out the answers and decide if it's worth perusing. 

However, if it was my rig, given the answers, I'd look for some other problem to spend my $$$$ on.

$0.02

Yes... this.
In the end it's the OP's decision to move forward or not.  If he wants 60hp he might be in for a disappointment, but if he wants something simply more he can get that.  If you want more up top that won't quit, go with the Guzzitech 4-valve heads.  It's a different character for sure and if that's your thing (like mine) it will completely change your motors character.  More torque go with Guzzi Racing's 820 kit et al.  I don't care about figures as much as needs.  Getting those needs met is awesome. The character CAN be changed, big hp figures not so much.  Funny thing is Guzzi came out with the single TB a few years ago and everyone was talking about the extra hp figures (1 hp).  Selling off their old stock for new stock for this is no different than a guy throwing a few $$ at gains he might desire in his current ride. It's all a perspective and it makes more sense to me to cater to yourself rather than wait for Guzzi to.  Go for it!!

[Guido Valvole]

If a Monza has 45 horsepower, they're pretty small horses 
"Torque" and "V50" in the same sentence, or even paragraph? Don't be absurd. The best way to make your V7 feel faster and more powerful would be to spend a few days on one of its smaller ancestors, Lario and Lario mutants ( ) excepted.
cr

[pyoungbl]

Well, that was a fun exercise.   Rocker59, please make this a sticky since we seem to plow this ground every two weeks or so.

Thanks,
Peter Y.

[sign216]

Performance increases are seriously limited because of the Heron head design.

Heron Heads Rule!  The V7 is the last vehicle to use this old-time design.  It provides good torque in the low to mid rpm range,  where you really ride, and the design is known for economical performance.

Sure, there are faster, high rpm engines using the latest whiz-bang technology.   
I don't want them.
Feel free to spend your $ on them, and on then endless dealer maintenance too (BMW, I'm talking about you).

[jackson]

Heron Heads Rule!  The V7 is the last vehicle to use this old-time design.  It provides good torque in the low to mid rpm range,  where you really ride, and the design is known for economical performance.

Sure, there are faster, high rpm engines using the latest whiz-bang technology.   
I don't want them.
Feel free to spend your $ on them, and on then endless dealer maintenance too (BMW, I'm talking about you).

BINGO!

[Kentktk]

Just enjoy riding a slow bike. Buy something faster next time .

[Vasco DG]

For anybody who is seriously considering wasting their money going down this path here are a couple of things to consider.

Simply increasing capacity may get a bit more torque but to get more power you'll need a higher rev limit. Never mind the limitations in the valve train but I hope whoever is thinking of producing these technological marvels is giving some thought to the crank and rods.

I don't know if the current V7 rods have been substantially strengthened but they certainly look very similar to earlier smallblock rods. One thing that I my experience has always needed doing on any smallblock and more so the harder they were thrashed is re-sizing of the big ends during rebuilds. The big ends tend to ovalise as the wall thickness is really quite thin. While big block rods have always been substantial bits of engineering the smallblocks were always an 'Economy' model and there is nothing wrong with that but it does mean that in the interest of both cost and weight the rods are a bit flimsy. Also bear in mind that the engineers knew perfectly well the limitations of the Heron head design so super-high quality rods were un-necessary.

If though you are going to be chasing *more* from the engine one would hope that the use of lighter, forged, Pistons with a modern, shorter, skirt design, Deeves type oil ring and thin compression rings with low tension would be employed and the rods swapped for something more substantial. If this is not done it may work OK but life of components like big end shells is liable to be compromised and if you run your big ends? Well, I don't think you can get undersized bearings for smallblock rods and anyway you'd loose both the nitriding and rigidity of the crank if you do under-grind.

Look,if people want to go down this path all power to them but please! Look at the package holistically and consider ALL the relevant factors otherwise you're going to end up with an expensive and possibly dangerous disappointment. I don't want to hear a load of whinging and bitching about unreliability when an essentially good design is stretched beyond its service parameters.

Pete

[Penderic]

Sometimes you can't always get what you want...


But maybe you'll get what you need...

 

[kevdog3019]

For anybody who is seriously considering wasting their money going down this path here are a couple of things to consider.

Simply increasing capacity may get a bit more torque but to get more power you'll need a higher rev limit. Never mind the limitations in the valve train but I hope whoever is thinking of producing these technological marvels is giving some thought to the crank and rods.

I don't know if the current V7 rods have been substantially strengthened but they certainly look very similar to earlier smallblock rods. One thing that I my experience has always needed doing on any smallblock and more so the harder they were thrashed is re-sizing of the big ends during rebuilds. The big ends tend to ovalise as the wall thickness is really quite thin. While big block rods have always been substantial bits of engineering the smallblocks were always an 'Economy' model and there is nothing wrong with that but it does mean that in the interest of both cost and weight the rods are a bit flimsy. Also bear in mind that the engineers knew perfectly well the limitations of the Heron head design so super-high quality rods were un-necessary.

If though you are going to be chasing *more* from the engine one would hope that the use of lighter, forged, Pistons with a modern, shorter, skirt design, Deeves type oil ring and thin compression rings with low tension would be employed and the rods swapped for something more substantial. If this is not done it may work OK but life of components like big end shells is liable to be compromised and if you run your big ends? Well, I don't think you can get undersized bearings for smallblock rods and anyway you'd loose both the nitriding and rigidity of the crank if you do under-grind.

Look,if people want to go down this path all power to them but please! Look at the package holistically and consider ALL the relevant factors otherwise you're going to end up with an expensive and possibly dangerous disappointment. I don't want to hear a load of whinging and bitching about unreliability when an essentially good design is stretched beyond its service parameters.

Pete

Good conjecture Pete. There is likely one guy that has put these sb's to the test. At 54 RWHP and jet fuel, he has been testing their limits for a good while. Has anyone pulled these negatives out of him as I suspect he's keeping this stuff a secret... or is he??  I've got Carrillos and a balanced crank he installed, but he put simple big ends on mine. He mentioned nothing about beefing those up. I suspect he's running the same unless he's keeping it a secret. 

[rodekyll]

Jet fuel is basically kerosene.  If he's getting 54hp (22% increase) using jet fuel we'd all like to know the secret.

[kevdog3019]

Maybe it's not officially jet fuel but racing fuel because of compression.

[AGRO!]

All those things Agro! observes also apply to my V7 Stone. What have I done? I have run it for 11000 kilometres now. Feels a lot stronger now.

In fact, the way the small Guzzi delivers its power is one main reason why this bike is so much fun. Of course a Monster 1200 feels stronger in a way that when I switched back to my bike I had to look whether there are still two cylinders attached. But when I rode a V-Strom 1000 (100 hp) for two days I wondered where the horsepowers were hidden. And no, it was not switched into the "rain" - mode.

Mate I am so happy with my V7 that I just recently sold my 990 Super Duke.
I was really sad to see the SD go plus It had all the mods and went really good but in the end its like you said its the way the V7 delivers its power that makes this bike so much fun.
Fuel economy is another plus and in the end we are riding on the street not a track.
There's nothing like big HP on a bike but in the real world its a receipe for disaster I never used to think like this and used to go fast most of the time but as I'm getting older I'm thinking differently plus I'm hoping to be still riding in my later years. 
The only thing I'm doing now is upgrading the front and rear suspension and that's it. LIVING THE DREAM!

[kevdog3019]

Talking horsepower will soon be banned on this board as it's becoming as sacred as religion and politics. I'm certainly not going to tell someone how to live their hp dream. If you want to say hp kills so be it. I will never own a fast bike because I'm just not into it, but that's not because I believe it kills you. Most accidents are at slow speeds so I could make a case for more hp but I'm not ignorant. Plumping up a Guzzi does not make a fast bike so the phrase "buy a fast bike" is a little silly to me. I don't know too many people that want to make their Guzzi slower so we should all get a faster bike if that were true. Learning stuff from others is what I prefer to do. If we keep telling people it's silly to touch their bike what might we miss?  If we know something is going to hurt their bike through experience that's one thing, but I'm still a believer in trying some things and going places few have gone before. It's not JUST about hp figures remember. This thread has again become jump
on your bandwagon of "it's good enough, love it for what it is", "it will hurt your bike leave it be for cripesakes", or "here are your options, go for it if you wish". We all have our justifications, but "hp kills" is pointless and so seems "go buy a fast bike".

[Kentktk]

Good conjecture Pete. There is likely one guy that has put these sb's to the test. At 54 RWHP and jet fuel, he has been testing their limits for a good while. Has anyone pulled these negatives out of him as I suspect he's keeping this stuff a secret... or is he??  I've got Carrillos and a balanced crank he installed, but he put simple big ends on mine. He mentioned nothing about beefing those up. I suspect he's running the same unless he's keeping it a secret.

It always amuses me about using jet fuel. A gasoline powered engine will not even run on jet fuel

[Vasco DG]

One of the great positives of the Heron head design is that you can run shitty fuel and a higher compression ratio than you can with an average 'Hemi' 2V architecture.

The downside is the lousy VE. You can't have it all! To pretend you can is as stupid as those Bikexif Photoshop fantasies displayed by the over-eager, educationally challenged numbskulls who believe a picture makes anything possible.

Pete

[lorazepam]

Oh come on Pete, I heard you can get 3hp just switching to iridium plugs. 

[kevdog3019]

"Simply increasing capacity may get a bit more torque but to get more power you'll need a higher rev limit."

What if you keep a pretty flat torque curve all the way to the rev limit instead of falling off well below?  Why raise the limiter?  I certainly see no need.  Did Guzzi raise the limiter on their 8-valve BB design significantly?   

[RaananC]

All I asked if you know of any engine kit to increase the power. If you don't know of any, say you don't know but stop with the lecturing crup. Thanks for those who gave useful answers it helped.
As for the drone engine, over a year ago I relocated to Israel and since here in the beginning of the 90's they have built their first drones with Guzzi V75 engines there are still some available and my mechanic already suggested me to put one in my V50 Monza.

once again thanks to all of you.

Best

[tiger_one]

This begs the question, what would be the shipping charges for the drone engine from Israel?

You might could sell a few if the price is right!