V7 power bump

[kevdog3019]

You said you haven't been around in a year, you may have missed it! Look at Chuck in Indiana's profile, check his post... find the Aero drone engine thread.. ready made instructions for you & your mechanic friend! 

Also in the last year, a member here put lario 4v heads on a modern v7. His build is well documented in its own thread.

YES... instead of looking the other way let's use the experience of others and say what's possible. Pissing on this stuff and calling foul does not help the case for those that paved the way. I'm sure the Wright Bros. heard their share of this negativity as well. Somebody eventually went out on a limb.

[harryzet]

http://www.zweiradshop-stuhlmueller.de/Moto-Guzzi-V-7-750.50573.html

in german, but you can use translator. the guy got high praise from the press. you just can send him the head also and he will tune it for you. stage one is 790 euro, stage 2 about 1200, stage 3 about 1700 euro - all including remapping

[bad Chad]

Can I get more power out of my v65 if I go to a more lite oil?  I'm thinking if I run a straight 15 weight there will be less drag, thus more horsepower, right?   I realize heat could be a problem, so I don't plan on running it more than an hour, before shutting down to let the heat dissipate.

Also planing on using hotter plugs to make a bigger spark, thus igniting more fuel, once again more HP!

Also going to try a quart/litter of Slick 50, for even more friction/drag reduction.   And of course I'm gonna pull the air box, put on pods, and dump the stock cans, for some super free flows from Warshaskys, or whatever there called these days.

Any other ideas, I would like to think with a little work and less that $500 I should be able to get the old girl to put out close to 60HP?  Should I also go with bigger jets?

[guzzisteve]

Yes, bigger jets, or jet pack it's the only way a turd will fly.

[Vasco DG]

Looking at the Dyno chart it would seem an awful lot of money to spend for no return???

[oldbike54]

Looking at the Dyno chart it would seem an awful lot of money to spend for no return???

 Yeah , the chart is misleading . The gains look good until you realize the gain is just over 1 HP at high RPMs . I am guessing the flat spot at low RPMs could be tuned out with a good remap .

  Dusty

Looking at the Dyno chart it would seem an awful lot of money to spend for no return???

[kevdog3019]

Yeah , the chart is misleading . The gains look good until you realize the gain is just over 1 HP at high RPMs . I am guessing the flat spot at low RPMs could be tuned out with a good remap .

  Dusty

Love it!  "Flat spot at low RPM"?    Try coughing and wheezing up top. 

[huub]

Yeah , the chart is misleading . The gains look good until you realize the gain is just over 1 HP at high RPMs . I am guessing the flat spot at low RPMs could be tuned out with a good remap .

  Dusty

the chart doesnt show the original dyno chart, it is not stated what the red line actually is

[oldbike54]

the chart doesnt show the original dyno chart, it is not stated what the red line actually is

 OK , so where is the original ?

  Dusty

[Penderic]

Some V7 dyno charts...
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=22859.0

Lots of info on the Guzzitech Lario head conversion: http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-classic-with-lario-heads.14276/

Too much effort for most home mechanics!

[kevdog3019]

Some V7 dyno charts...
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=22859.0

Lots of info on the Guzzitech Lario head conversion: http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-classic-with-lario-heads.14276/

Too much effort for most home mechanics!

Don't get the wrong idea with the Guzzitech link.  This is MWRENN's mod not Guzzitech's.  It was all posted here at WG as well.  We don't know what will be offered up by Guzzitech in the end. 

[cvcaelen]

how about this for power bump:





seen at a dealer in Austria,
seems to have been a "secret" project givven to Guzzi,
but they never put it in a frame

Christiaan

[rodekyll]

Can I get more power out of my v65 if I go to a more lite oil?  I'm thinking if I run a straight 15 weight there will be less drag, thus more horsepower, right?   I realize heat could be a problem, so I don't plan on running it more than an hour, before shutting down to let the heat dissipate.

Also planing on using hotter plugs to make a bigger spark, thus igniting more fuel, once again more HP!

Also going to try a quart/litter of Slick 50, for even more friction/drag reduction.   And of course I'm gonna pull the air box, put on pods, and dump the stock cans, for some super free flows from Warshaskys, or whatever there called these days.

Any other ideas, I would like to think with a little work and less that $500 I should be able to get the old girl to put out close to 60HP?  Should I also go with bigger jets?

You forgot the fuel line turbonator and copper magnets.

[Penderic]

Well.... Don't tell anyone but it is a well known secret, nudge, nudge, that for just $599.95 (not Australian), 10 minutes time, a rusty nail  and this baby, all your troubles will seem so far away! 


Fuel line extra.


 

[kevdog3019]

Well.... Don't tell anyone but it is a well known secret, nudge, nudge, that for just $599.95 (not Australian), 10 minutes time, a rusty nail  and this baby, all your troubles will seem so far away! 


Fuel line extra.

For that price you've got to be looking at a few hp bump.  Now that anyone can add. 

[jas67]

Duc 696 - 408# wet, rated at ~ 67 RWHP and 44 torques, 12.21 second 1/4 mile

V7 Stone - 444# wet, rated at ~ 40 RWHP and 41 torques, 14.57 second  1/4 mile

Somehow I don't believe that more than 2 second difference in the 1/4 mile is 3 ft. lbs. of torque and 36# of weight. Seems how and where it is making that hp (and how much) is the main difference.

The Duc makes that torque up to higher RPM than the V7.   Run that torque through shorter gearing, and torque at the rear wheel is much higher.

Say, just for argument sake (this is just for explaining the theory, not actual numbers for the above bikes) that you have one motor making 40 ft*lb of torque at 5,000 RPM, and another making it at 4,000 RPM.

Now, using a 5:1 total drive reduction to the rear wheel for the first bike, you've got (ignoring drivetrain losses for simplicity) 5* 40 = 200 ft*lb at 1,000 RPM at the rear wheel.

With the second bike, to get 1,000 RPM at the rear wheel, you'd need a 4:1 reduction, yielding 160 ft*lb at 1,000 RPM.   So, the first bike would have 25% more torque available.

Now, NOT ignoring drivetrain losses, shaft drive has higher losses than chain drive, so that would like add a few % in the Duc's favor as well.

So, to benefit from the extra HP, in this example, you simply need to rev the motor more.     Your M696 will pull strongly to well over 8,000 RPM (HP peak is at 8,750 if my memory serves me right), while the V7 runs out of steam at by 7,000 (as I know you know, and alluded to in your post).

What's this mean for riding on the street?    Not a whole hell of a lot for most of the riding we do.   On the track?   The Duc will trounce the V7.   Relevance to your riding?   None.    And the V7 kills the Duc in the style dept.   I own one of each, and enjoy each for what it is.

[Kev m]

Well, my post was meant to suggest you can't just look at peak torque figures and ignore hp.

But your example makes me wonder what the overall performance result of changing a sprocket would mean on the Duc and resulting rwhp dyno chart.

You'd think it would make it quicker off the line (or powering out of curves) and might cost you a little on the top end. Wonder if a dyno chart would show a change to peak figures or rpm?

[kevdog3019]

Jas makes precisely my point. You have to look at things holistically in order to make real changes where YOU want them. It's not just hp or torque figures but gearing as well. I didn't like the high gearing on the lario as I'm not into TOP SPEED numbers. The 4-valve heads also don't pull exactly stellar down low, so I had all the internals lightened and geared down. Horse power bump of a good 15% and torque perfectly linear all the way up to almost redline. It seems to pull pretty equally everywhere now BECAUSE I HELPED THE LOW END and more fuel and compression gives a rush all the way up. 15% is good, but it's the other stuff that made the bigger gains in feel and my preferred kind of riding IMO. I consider the change big but it is not just because hp went up 15%.
If your Duc pulls harder up top and can hang down below with the V7, it will kill it on a straight long run. There's your difference. If your canyon carving the weight will help you some, but torque being equal doesn't give it a huge advantage because you can't get into the upper power band where it excels. The racers look at track, torque, and gearing accordingly. That can change with each race I'd suspect.

[Kev m]

Then I was misunderstanding your point. I thought you were effectively saying to ignore hp because go and torque are mathematically related (one derived from the other).

I agree you have to look at the whole, and WHERE/HOW the power is made especially.

I'll still choose the V7 over the Duc even with the power differences, which was my other point.

[kevdog3019]

Then I was misunderstanding your point. I thought you were effectively saying to ignore hp because go and torque are mathematically related (one derived from the other).

I agree you have to look at the whole, and WHERE/HOW the power is made especially.

I'll still choose the V7 over the Duc even with the power differences, which was my other point.

I ran into a guy today at the bank with a V7 Stone like yours Kev.  Talked awhile then he started and took off.  Such a sweet note and easy running bike.  I get the power thing and using the right tool for the job.  I don't like taking my Lario to run errands as it is a bike that wants to run not walk.  It's a good Sunday rider but I don't like to do the stop and start thing with it.  It's more visceral. I would love to have the easy feeling and stylish ride that the newer stock bikes give also.  Been there with the B750 before so I get it. Every bike has it's own way it wants to be ridden and it's hard to fight that.

[jas67]

..... Every bike has it's own way it wants to be ridden and it's hard to fight that.

Spot on, kevdog.

The V7 is happy to chill and ride easy around town, but also responds well to being ridden hard.
The Duc (my M796 to me anyway) is a more single purpose machine.     It begs to be ridden hard all the time.   I think that the V7 is the more versatile bike.     I don't often ride my M796 to work, but, ride the V7 to work quite often.   I would happily tour on a V7, but, probably not on the M796.

Well, my post was meant to suggest you can't just look at peak torque figures and ignore hp.

But your example makes me wonder what the overall performance result of changing a sprocket would mean on the Duc and resulting rwhp dyno chart.

You'd think it would make it quicker off the line (or powering out of curves) and might cost you a little on the top end. Wonder if a dyno chart would show a change to peak figures or rpm?

I did change the front sprocket of my M796 from 15 to 14.   It was a bit rough off the line with the 15.  This is a common complaint with this model.    I'm sure it is likely quicker off the line, but, more importantly, I can launch it much more smoothly, as the engine gets to an RPM it runs smoothly at more quickly.

Also, the 796 just isn't smooth below 4,000 RPM at all.     With the stock gearing that meant 6th gear wasn't usable under 75 MPH.    With the 14, 6th is usable at anything over 66-68 MPH.

As for top end, it may or may not lose top end, but, it doesn't matter.    At 125 MPH, it was still pulling  .   That's too fast with no wind protection.  I don't remember what RPM it was turning at that speed, or even if I was in 6th, but, 70 MPH is around 4,000 RPM in 6th, so, that should be 7,150, HP peak (according to specs) is at 8,250 RPM.     If anything, I'd say that  the shorter gearing would actually help top speed in top gear.

[Kentktk]

Ad about 6 to 8% Toluene or if can`t find that use Lacquer thinner to your fuel, it will increase the fuels BTU`s. You`ll get at about 6% hp increase for a few dollars. Just don`t get greedy and use more.

[dan_s]

Hi Raanan, you just poked a stick in a hornets' nest :P
Your best chance with having some more power with the monza imo would be with a 2 valve 650 or 750 engine.  These engines can keep you a bit faster than modern traffic. Aviv transplanted a Lario engine in a Imola, ask him about the progress, highly risky. tell me if you find a drone engine.