Author Topic: Officer the helmet is full coverage and Snell certified. What do you mean it  (Read 10056 times)

dilligaf

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doesn't meet your construction standards?  :copcar:

http://www.mrf.org/2015/news_release/15NR18.htm
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« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 03:34:43 PM by dilligaf »

Offline sib

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I had to laugh at the part: "The Motorcycle Riders Foundation believes that motorcycle helmet enforcement is a state issue and not a federal issue."  Everyone who has ever wanted weaker rules about anything has made similar statements, you know,
"state's rights".

My comment isn't about MRF's position on the issue itself.
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Offline Kent in Upstate NY

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It is aimed at those "beanie" helmets worn to comply with state laws w/o really wearing a helmet. A co-worker of mine went down while wearing one of those and it didn't end well.
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Offline Testarossa

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I agree that any national standard should address performance, and not the specific construction to meet that performance.

About 30 years ago the German Industrial Standards organization came up with a set of standards for ski binding performance, subsequently endorsed by other standards organizations (ASTM for instance). In theory it was a performance standard -- bindings had to release under a specific set of torques and vectors -- but it all hinged on a standard boot-sole shape and boot plastic durometer. Because of that, binding design has been frozen for three decades -- attempts to improve function have largely gone nowhere because the shapes of the mechanical bearing surfaces can't be changed.

We now see progress in ski helmet (and bike helmet) design based on new foam layers that deform in shear, helping to reduce torque on the skull and therefore shearing of nerve tissue near the surface of the brain. If specific construction details were spelled out in standards, I can see that this improvement in safety might be off the table.
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dilligaf

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It is aimed at those "beanie" helmets worn to comply with state laws w/o really wearing a helmet. A co-worker of mine went down while wearing one of those and it didn't end well.
Oh! You sure? Where does it say that?  The way I read it, it's up to the  :police:.
and what Testarossa said.  :thumb:  :boozing:
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« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 05:02:05 PM by dilligaf »

Offline Arizona Wayne

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It might also be aimed at states that allow no helmet required for riders over 21 yo too like Arizona.  But 'beanie' helmets are not really DOT approved and DOT approval for open, open face, modular, full face helmets are not all the same.   If you wear a DOT approved helmet I don't see where this can interfere with you unless you have altered your helmet like adding a spike to it.  SNELL approval is really for race car drivers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 04:42:38 PM by Arizona Wayne »

Offline Tom

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Oh....a helmet thread........ :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Offline Lannis

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Riding since 1970 and I've never had a law officer show the tiniest, ittiest-bittiest iota of interest in the qualifications of the helmet I was wearing, so it's hard for me to get behind a helmet-certification thing ..... Any helmet I buy that's even close to the value of my head is going to pass muster anywhere ....

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Offline Tom

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From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline T in NC

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Ditto :thumb:
Riding since 1970 and I've never had a law officer show the tiniest, ittiest-bittiest iota of interest in the qualifications of the helmet I was wearing, so it's hard for me to get behind a helmet-certification thing ..... Any helmet I buy that's even close to the value of my head is going to pass muster anywhere ....

Lannis

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Offline cruzziguzzi

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I should think it would be easy enough to establish a Federal standard without implying a Federal use mandate on the states.

The downside would be the momentous number of lawsuits once a percieved "safe" standard is set and still injuries/death occur. I can see the Feds looking at this as a hot potato rolling down a slippery slope:

Helmet
ABS
Traction Control
Airbags
Roll bars...

Just cut to the chase and outlaw motorcycles all together.

'Course then, many would be denied their high-horse from which to spew venomous condescension, derision and judgment with regards to individual's decision as to what - if anything - to wear.

As far as LE scrutiny of particular headgear - there's at least one MP and one Mass. Statey took umbrage at my choice of Army aviator and armor helmets for motorcycle use. To be sure, they weren't up to being used at any speed. Lesson learned.

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Online rocker59

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I had to laugh at the part: "The Motorcycle Riders Foundation believes that motorcycle helmet enforcement is a state issue and not a federal issue."  Everyone who has ever wanted weaker rules about anything has made similar statements, you know,
"state's rights".

My comment isn't about MRF's position on the issue itself.

So what Federal Agency do you think is in charge of helmet use enforcement?  The FBI?

 
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Offline Sasquatch Jim

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  All this just shows the wisdom of throwing out helmet laws completely.
 Voluntary use saves lives.  Good enough.
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Offline Testarossa

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Offline cruzziguzzi

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So what Federal Agency do you think is in charge of helmet use enforcement?  The FBI?

Nah, it'd be the TSA -

"Now sir, whatchu wanna do is putchure hemet on the ground, remove your footswear and spread your cheeks. Doan sass me now, this is for your safetys. As soon's I checka your stickers, you free ta go."

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Online rocker59

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DOT.

Federal DOT has no enforcement arm, patrolling the Country's highways.



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Offline Arizona Wayne

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Federal DOT has no enforcement arm, patrolling the Country's highways.




Maybe not, but it does set the standards for what safety MC helmets can be legally sold in the USA.   If a helmet is not DOT approved it's not legal in the USA.

Penderic

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I hope they don't find my mousetrap.

Its not so much the police, it will be the liability lawyers and insurance agents that will be swarming over any evidence, after an accident, in order to help or hinder the payout of any claims.

The details will be in the tiny fine print. Is your bike completely stock? Maybe those mods make your bike legally unfit and so the insurance wont cover what you thought it would.


Rough Edge racing

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Riding since 1970 and I've never had a law officer show the tiniest, ittiest-bittiest iota of interest in the qualifications of the helmet I was wearing, so it's hard for me to get behind a helmet-certification thing ..... Any helmet I buy that's even close to the value of my head is going to pass muster anywhere ....

Lannis

 Same here...

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Maybe not, but it does set the standards for what safety MC helmets can be legally sold in the USA.   If a helmet is not DOT approved it's not legal in the USA.

Sure they can be sold in The USA.  If not, then there would be no novelty helmets or DAVIDA helmets in The USA.

And, there are.
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Offline Kev m

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Pedantic I know, but isn't it the case that DOT has some helmet certification standards, but they DO NOT approve helmets. The helmets are tested by the manufacturers and labeled as certified or novelty depending on the purpose?

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dilligaf

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  :thewife: If this becomes law then will have the last word.  And what Kev said. :boozing:
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« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 08:04:03 AM by rocker59 »

Offline Testarossa

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The Federal gummint enforces nothing regarding helmets. DOT provides guidelines for manufacturer labeling. States may require helmets to meet DOT guidelines. States and municipalities may authorize LEOs to enforce state requirements.

http://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-dot-takes-action-address-unsafe-motorcycle-helmets

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canuguzzi

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I had to laugh at the part: "The Motorcycle Riders Foundation believes that motorcycle helmet enforcement is a state issue and not a federal issue."  Everyone who has ever wanted weaker rules about anything has made similar statements, you know,
"state's rights".

My comment isn't about MRF's position on the issue itself.

Except gun control in California. There they argue that the states rights are what gives them the foundation for tougher, not more lenient rules.

Offline LowRyter

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if we wanted to get real sticky about it, SNELL requires that helmets be within 5 years old of standard (IIRC).  The thinking is that UV and age will cause a helmet to deteriorate. 

So some one can be riding with a 50 year old Buco and still be legal.  Not that I care about enforcement. 
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Offline Arizona Wayne

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Like someone here already said, in 50+ years never had any cop/sheriff question the quality of my helmet.  I'm smart enough to not wear a fake helmet for head protection.  In fact I wore a helmet before any law said I had to.   Legally don't have to here in Arizona but I'm smarter than that.  :smiley:

dilligaf

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Right now the burden of proof is on the  :police: and proving the helmet in question doesn't meet DOT 218 is hard to do without destroying the helmet.  Unless you voluntarily give the  :police: your helmet they have no legal right to it. Opinion, construction and appearance are not proof. Should this become law opinion, construction and appearance will trump certification.  Not what I want.  I wonder if the Governor has an opinion?

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 04:35:03 PM by dilligaf »

Offline rodekyll

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Your governator has had some applaudable opinions recently.  I think she is smart enough to figure out that if a helmet model is blessed under whatever rules might emerge, the blessing will trump the need to core sample individual lids of the same model.  So you wouldn't have to give up your shoei voluntarily or otherwise.  There would be a list and the shoei will either be on it or not.

All that being said, I still don't give a rat's ass about helmet laws one way or another -- unless they are banned altogether.  I have my own helmet law.

I'm confronted by bare-headed riders a lot on my travels who feel it's their mission to inform me that helmets aren't MANDATORY in some state I'm passing through.  Then they pause as though I'm supposed to react by tossing mine in the ditch.  It's like they think 'not mandatory' means 'not allowed'.

We lost another rider up near FBKS last week.  A soldier.  You can't ride on a military base without one, and this clown was headed to work.  His custom was to charge up to the gate bare-headed and put the bucket on because he was crossing the security checkpoint.  The boys manning the gate confirmed that he'd pull over once exited from the base and remove it before riding on.  Excessive speed and excessive stupidity made him go airborne in a curve, and Darwin won -- massive head injury.  From a procreation point-of-view, some people maybe shouldn't wear a helmet . . .

With all that in mind I'm in a quandary about riding the trike without one.   :boozing:

Offline drums4money

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Pedantic I know, but isn't it the case that DOT has some helmet certification standards, but they DO NOT approve helmets. The helmets are tested by the manufacturers and labeled as certified or novelty depending on the purpose?

That's my take on it.  The manufacturer "certifies" that the helmet meets DOT standard.  While the manufacturer submits & pays the fee for Snell certification, the DOT endorsement is the only one that is singularly acknowledged / approved for where a helmet is required. 

What I'm unclear on is:
If DOT is required to be road motorcycle legal, are there Snell helmets that are NOT DOT?  Possibly for off road or auto racing only?
I'm trying to rationalize somehow that "all Snell certified helmets are also DOT by default. . .

http://www.bikebandit.com/community/guides/dot-snell-ece-motorcycle-helmet-certification

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Offline Testarossa

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Snell says all Snell helmets meet DOT recommendations. 

http://www.smf.org/docs/articles/dot
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